sin bins using blue cards to be introduced in season 2024/25?

[Cowshed]

On 09/02/2024 at 11:33, Robbored said:

 No need to unnecessarily complicate a system 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Too complicated

 

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not complicated

?

1. Blue ten minutes in sin bin.
2. Yellow caution.
3. Red sending off.

This is as rudimentary as 1,2,3. 

 

 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

1. Blue ten minutes in sin bin.
2. Yellow caution.
3. Red sending off.

This is as rudimentary as 1,2,3. 

 

Phew……………1) yellow 10 mins in the bin. 2) second yellow sending off. 3) any offence that warrants a straight red.

Absolutely no need for a blue card.

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Phew……………1) yellow 10 mins in the bin.

You would sin bin players for all yellow card offences ...You red haired revolutionary you.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

You would sin bin players for all yellow card offences 

Absolutely. 

I’ve already pointed out the benefits of employing such a method.

[CodeRed]

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration, players will go down 'injured' at the slightest contact and the physio will come on for as long as they can possibly stretch it out, GK will take an age with every kick, throw in's the same. The game will have zero entertainment for those 10 minutes. 

Stop messing about with the rules and just enforce the existing ones.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration, players will go down 'injured' at the slightest contact and the physio will come on for as long as they can possibly stretch it out, GK will take an age with every kick, throw in's the same. The game will have zero entertainment for those 10 minutes. 

Stop messing about with the rules and just enforce the existing ones.

I think the theory is good….but the execution / implementation could be exactly as you describe.

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration, players will go down 'injured' at the slightest contact and the physio will come on for as long as they can possibly stretch it out, GK will take an age with every kick, throw in's the same. The game will have zero entertainment for those 10 minutes. 

Stop messing about with the rules and just enforce the existing ones.

Perfectly valid points CR but the powers that be seem hell bent on adding what I see as an unnecessary card. I’m trying to point out the least harmful way of going about it.

I would point out tho that teams are familiar with playing with or against 10 men and is something often used as an exercise in training so it’s not necessarily always the drawbacks you mention.

[ExiledAjax]

26 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration, players will go down 'injured' at the slightest contact and the physio will come on for as long as they can possibly stretch it out, GK will take an age with every kick, throw in's the same. The game will have zero entertainment for those 10 minutes. 

This literally doesn't happen in any other game that has a sin bin. Why would it in football?

Also, teams don't just sit in and defend when they go down to ten men now, so again why would they do so in a sin bin situation?

Thirdly. There will be another team on the pitch, one with a one man advantage, that will try and attack and press that advantage. That would presumably increase the entertainment provided by that team.

I just don't see anything in this argument that it will damage the "spectacle".

29 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Stop messing about with the rules and just enforce the existing ones.

If they did as you ask here then more players would get a yellow and then a second yellow ...and you then get more red cards. Applying your argument that 10 men decreases entertainment, you'd get that decrease, but for the entirety of the match not just for ten minutes.

The blue card sin bin isn't introducing a new rule, it's introducing a new method of enforcement. 

[Cowshed]

27 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration,

What has been the outcome of sin bins being used in leagues since 2019? 

[Three Lions]

2 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Sin Bin is a ridiculous idea in football,  as soon as a team loses a man to the bin they will time waste for the 10 minute duration, players will go down 'injured' at the slightest contact and the physio will come on for as long as they can possibly stretch it out, GK will take an age with every kick, throw in's the same. The game will have zero entertainment for those 10 minutes. 

Stop messing about with the rules and just enforce the existing ones.

I have a habit of calling them rules but their laws and these are existing laws so if a player goes in the sin bin its not changing the laws of the game its helping to uphold them. All the rest hand it over to the fourth official to time keep. 

Sendings off never add to the excitement of the game and neither would sin binning?? 

Edited February 11 by Three Lions

[CodeRed]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

This literally doesn't happen in any other game that has a sin bin. Why would it in football

Because in Rugby for example they stop the clock for injuries so there's no advantage to time waste, Rugby teams do slow the game in other ways.

Also, teams don't just sit in and defend when they go down to ten men now, so again why would they do so in a sin bin situation?

Because they have to play with 10 men for the remainder of the game rather than a 10 minute period they can see out and then get back to parity - currently most teams ( Spurs notably the exception recently when they went down to 9!) - do take off an attacker and play 1 up front when down to 10.

Thirdly. There will be another team on the pitch, one with a one man advantage, that will try and attack and press that advantage. That would presumably increase the entertainment provided by that team.

I just don't see anything in this argument that it will damage the "spectacle".

If they did as you ask here then more players would get a yellow and then a second yellow ...and you then get more red cards. Applying your argument that 10 men decreases entertainment, you'd get that decrease, but for the entirety of the match not just for ten minutes.

My point is that a 10 minute reduction to 10 men will encourage a different tactical /time wasting reaction to a red that applies for the rest of the game, if you're down to 10 as a result of a red you have to find a way to compete for the rest of the match - if it's a blue you kill the game for 10 minutes and then go back to your game plan 

The blue card sin bin isn't introducing a new rule, it's introducing a new method of enforcement. 

It's a minefield - player goes in for a tackle and catches the opponent, it's a foul but is it a yellow, a blue, a red, 

 

[Cowshed]

12 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

1. Because in Rugby for example they stop the clock for injuries so there's no advantage to time waste, Rugby teams do slow the game in other ways.
2. Because they have to play with 10 men for the remainder of the game rather than a 10 minute period they can see out and then get back to parity - currently most teams ( Spurs notably the exception recently when they went down to 9!) - do take off an attacker and play 1 up front when down to 10.
3. My point is that a 10 minute reduction to 10 men will encourage a different tactical /time wasting reaction to a red that applies for the rest of the game, if you're down to 10 as a result of a red you have to find a way to compete for the rest of the match - if it's a blue you kill the game for 10 minutes and then go back to your game plan 
4. It's a minefield - player goes in for a tackle and catches the opponent, it's a foul but is it a yellow, a blue, a red, 

1. In football the fourth official adds time where they see it is appropriate. 

2/3. What have been the outcomes of the four year trial? 

4. It is not a minefield, its a simple and straight forward. The blue card sanction would only be applied very narrowly to specific infringements.

The referee would apply an impactful blue card to fouls that stop promising attacks, the current sanction of just a yellow card and near meaningless free kick encourages players to take one for the team.    

The blue card would not include infringements where the red card is a consideration. I

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

1. In football the fourth official adds time where they see it is appropriate. 

2/3. What have been the outcomes of the four year trial? 

4. It is not a minefield, its a simple and straight forward. The blue card sanction would only be applied very narrowly to specific infringements.

The referee would apply an impactful blue card to fouls that stop promising attacks, the current sanction of just a yellow card and near meaningless free kick encourages players to take one for the team.    

The blue card would not include infringements where the red card is a consideration. I

Why try to fix something if it’s not broken?

I can’t see why it’s necessary to introduce a blue card - a view shared by the vast majority of football managers. 

[CodeRed]

10 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

1. In football the fourth official adds time where they see it is appropriate. 

Of  course - but the 10 minute sin bin period is not increased if the opposing side time waste, the opposite team is happy to extend the game when they're back to 11 v 11.

2/3. What have been the outcomes of the four year trial? 

4. It is not a minefield, its a simple and straight forward. The blue card sanction would only be applied very narrowly to specific infringements.

The referee would apply an impactful blue card to fouls that stop promising attacks, the current sanction of just a yellow card and near meaningless free kick encourages players to take one for the team.    

The blue card would not include infringements where the red card is a consideration. I

 

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Why try to fix something if it’s not broken?

I can’t see why it’s necessary to introduce a blue card - a view shared by the vast majority of football managers. 

Got the stats for that? 

Or is that the view of a handful like the Spurs Manager? The Spurs who are amongst the highest tactical foulers in England, or Arsenal's "Arteta? The man caught on camera imploring players "when there is a transition foul ", his Arsenal are alongside Spurs. Man City are the champions of the tactical foul. The best cheating the best.  

Tactical fouling is increasing, its increased with possession football.

And dissent? Increasing.

Where has it decreased? In leagues where sin bins have been trialled.

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Of  course - but the 10 minute sin bin period is not increased if the opposing side time waste, the opposite team is happy to extend the game when they're back to 11 v 11.

Yes it is. Stoppages are added on. 

And if a player is in the sin bin minutes before half time, he cannot start the second half till the ref deems his temporary dismissal has finished. 

[Robbored]

25 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Got the stats for that? 

Or is that the view of a handful like the Spurs Manager? The Spurs who are amongst the highest tactical foulers in England, or Arsenal's "Arteta? The man caught on camera imploring players "when there is a transition foul ", his Arsenal are alongside Spurs. Man City are the champions of the tactical foul. The best cheating the best.  

Tactical fouling is increasing, its increased with possession football.

And dissent? Increasing.

Where has it decreased? In leagues where sin bins have been trialled.

I’ll go back to my original comment about sin bins - yellow card = 10mins sin bin regardless of the offence unless it’s a straight red. 

A second yellow = sending off.

Absolutely no need for a blue  card.

[phantom]

On 06/02/2024 at 10:36, Steve Watts said:

Ah....it must be that time of the year again.  This story is as traditional as a Bond movie on a Bank Holiday.

Exactly this

Absolutely clear it won't get anywhere near the top level of the game in this country

Just the usual silly suggestion to get a bit of PR

[Cowshed]

9 minutes ago, phantom said:

Just the usual silly suggestion 

This is neither silly, or a suggestion.

Sin bins are a reality that are used in English football. This was done at the bequest of IFAB.  

The results of the experiences of using sin bins was an increases in leagues wanting to use sin bins, and now widely leagues and clubs wanting the use of sin bins being made permanent. 

Leagues and regional are also requesting that refs can use a additional card to improve the communication and identify the sin binning of players.  

[ExiledAjax]

38 minutes ago, phantom said:

Exactly this

Absolutely clear it won't get anywhere near the top level of the game in this country

Just the usual silly suggestion to get a bit of PR

If FIFA, IFAB, and the referees are in favour of it...which they are. Then it will come in. Maybe not in the exact form being discussed, but it will come. The hand-wringing hyperbole of Klopp, Dyche and Postecoglu won't stop it. 

The Athletic have done a lengthy, fair and balanced article about it. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/5261291/2024/02/09/blue-cards-plan-did-sin-bins-work-in-trials-would-they-succeed-at-the-top-level/%3famp=1

Edited February 12 by ExiledAjax

[Markthehorn]

Mike Dean wasn’t very keen on the idea but maybe he just didn’t want a row with Merson and co !

[Numero Uno]

14 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

If FIFA, IFAB, and the referees are in favour of it...which they are. Then it will come in. Maybe not in the exact form being discussed, but it will come. The hand-wringing hyperbole of Klopp, Dyche and Postecoglu won't stop it. 

The Athletic have done a lengthy, fair and balanced article about it. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/5261291/2024/02/09/blue-cards-plan-did-sin-bins-work-in-trials-would-they-succeed-at-the-top-level/%3famp=1

Football needs to careful with constant tinkering with the laws. Rugby fell into this trap and at club level is falling like a stone. Once fans either fail to understand the laws any more or simply hate the changes they will vote with their feet.

The difference between the Toolstation League and the pro game is mangers DO have the time to coach their players on how to ruin 10 minutes of football when you are a man down and many managers WILL do it without a second thought. £30 a game beer money players and Premier League football are two completely different entities.

Edited February 12 by Numero Uno

[Numero Uno]

14 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Got the stats for that? 

Or is that the view of a handful like the Spurs Manager? The Spurs who are amongst the highest tactical foulers in England, or Arsenal's "Arteta? The man caught on camera imploring players "when there is a transition foul ", his Arsenal are alongside Spurs. Man City are the champions of the tactical foul. The best cheating the best.  

Tactical fouling is increasing, its increased with possession football.

And dissent? Increasing.

Where has it decreased? In leagues where sin bins have been trialled.

………if they are that tactically cynical they will sure as hell find a way to disrupt games for 10 minutes and if they make it work every other pro manager will copy them.

If 30 minutes of every 90 each week is ruined by disruption due to teams being a man down for ten minutes people will think long and hard about paying hundreds of pounds for season tickets. All it needs is a 5% drop in support and clubs will be hit hard.

[ExiledAjax]

4 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

………if they are that tactically cynical they will sure as hell find a way to disrupt games for 10 minutes and if they make it work every other pro manager will copy them.

If 30 minutes of every 90 each week is ruined by disruption due to teams being a man down for ten minutes people will think long and hard about paying hundreds of pounds for season tickets. All it needs is a 5% drop in support and clubs will be hit hard.

If revenue either from match days or from TV companies begins to drop, and that is linked to a hypothetical avalanche of sin bins then what will happen is that owners will tell their managers to tell the players to stop calling the referee a *****. 

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

………if they are that tactically cynical they will sure as hell find a way to disrupt games for 10 minutes and if they make it work every other pro manager will copy them.

If 30 minutes of every 90 each week is ruined by disruption due to teams being a man down for ten minutes people will think long and hard about paying hundreds of pounds for season tickets. All it needs is a 5% drop in support and clubs will be hit hard.

Not if they are, we are.

I instruct adult players to foul players in transition. 100%. Clubs also pay these players fines. If we don't do it, the opponents will and our teams are disadvantaged. Football is not Corinthian.

Teams with the money will also give players a little top on their wages for fouling. Cheating has always gone on, but modern football has its new phenom.  

The finest coaches in Europe instruct their players to target transition, unless anybody thinks that the very best are achieving tactical fouls versus transition at speeds higher than the rest, Pep and Ange we salute you. 

This will continue to increase without intervention. There is nothing to stop teams using fouling as an out of possession tactic. What gets practiced at the top is mimicked throughout the game.

[Cowshed]

44 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Football needs to careful with constant tinkering with the laws. Rugby fell into this trap and at club level is falling like a stone. Once fans either fail to understand the laws any more or simply hate the changes they will vote with their feet.

The difference between the Toolstation League and the pro game is mangers DO have the time to coach their players on how to ruin 10 minutes of football when you are a man down and many managers WILL do it without a second thought. £30 a game beer money players and Premier League football are two completely different entities.

There would be no change to the laws of the game.  

Even Bishop Sutton languishing at the bottom (no wins) of the tool station have time to coach players to time waste etc. The recently departed foreign sounding coach had some long player meetings, and sessions. Their players do not get £30 a game. 

[cityexile]

It seems guidance is that if a goalie gets a blue card, the choice is either to make a permanent sub, or to nominate an outfield player as goalie for ten mins. Would be interesting if nothing else.

[MarcusX]

On 09/02/2024 at 16:18, robin_unreliant said:

It's hard enough for refs choosing between red and yellow cards. Add a third and it gets even more subjective and harder to decide which is the appropriate choice. Whatever the rules it is still down to a ref's judgement. I'd rather they left it as it is.

It’s in place already at lower levels, it’s specifically for dissent.

Id agree if they change it to cynical fouls as well it may become subjective, but that’s not how it works at the moment.

On 10/02/2024 at 08:07, RedM said:

What about if player A commits a foul on player B who then has to leave the field for treatment, then player A should leave the field too until player B returns or is subbed? 

That would be my new rule.

Would just be abused, their best player fouls one of yours? Take a rest to be “treated” and get him off the pitch. Just doesn’t work in practice

On 10/02/2024 at 08:11, RedM said:

So I assume they can't be sin binned again later in the match, so what's next a yellow or a yellow tallying up to a red so they are off? 

Can be sin binned twice, but after the second cannot return to play but can be substituted.

You can receive a booking (either before or after) as well as one sin bin - but a second yellow is a red and a second sin bin means you cannot return or be substituted - so effectively a red as well but no fine for the player.

On 10/02/2024 at 11:08, Robbored said:

Unfortunately it does what it was designed to do - it confirms the right decision and therefore reduces the fans wrath at the officials that we all know has been a huge factor in matches and is still an issue outside of the PL.

 

Sorry but I don’t know what football you watch, VAR has absolutely not reduced the fans wrath 

On 10/02/2024 at 12:19, ExiledAjax said:

They've literally been testing it for 5 years in lower leagues. Apparently it's worked quite well.

It surprises me how many are discussing what may or may not happen when it’s already in use. I’m guessing some didn’t know this.

However in my experience it only works as well as the ref applying the rules. I’ve seen plenty of dissent still, swearing, calling ref and/or linesmen a cheat etc and go unpunished.

On 11/02/2024 at 16:39, Robbored said:

Too complicated Cowshed - why introduce an unnecessary card? 

As I posted earlier yellow = 10 mins in the sin bin. A second yellow = red card and off. Straightforward and simple. Teams are familiar playing against 10 or with only 10.

Benefits are that referees likely to be less card happy. Players aware to be less reckless particularly when tacking.

Should a team have two in the sin bin (as England did in the rugby yesterday) hard luck.

You’re aware how many yellow cards there are in games? This would be far worse than a sin bin for dissent.

Here’s a link to the current sin bin rules:

https://www.englandfootball.com/participate/explore/inclusive-football/Respect/sin-bins
 

 

 

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, MarcusX said:

However in my experience it only works as well as the ref applying the rules. I’ve seen plenty of dissent still, swearing, calling ref and/or linesmen a cheat etc and go unpunished.

It's good to hear from someone who has actually experienced it.

This bit though, this is the case with all of the rules/laws. It will always be the case. I listened to this great podcast https://www.google.com/amp/s/theathletic.com/5261291/2024/02/09/blue-cards-plan-did-sin-bins-work-in-trials-would-they-succeed-at-the-top-level/%3famp=1.

It talks quite candidly about how different referees - different people - do the job differently and apply the laws in slightly different ways. You get the same in court, certain judges have certain reputations for being harsher on X or on Y or applying case A in this way or that. It's human. 

We will never get perfect consistency.