Max O'Leary super keeper (or not)

[Citychuds]

In my opinion we have a cracking Championship keeper in Max O'leary. I liked Bentley and when he got dropped in favour of Max I was concerned it was a step backwards and maybe a cost cutting exercise. I now feel I was wrong, and wonder if the club just saw Max as the better keeper and therefore didnt need to pay Bentleys high wage. Now id take Max over Bentley any day and comparing him to other Champ keepers I feel we are in a good position. However its clear Max has always been a bit marmite and maybe some fans would happily see him replaced. 

I feel he is cracking at keeping the ball out the net, we dont ship loads of goals he has pulled off a number of excellent stops and has kept us in many games. Has made a few mistakes (Preston etc) but not many and in fairness his timing on coming out or punching is pretty good

The distribution issue is frustrating but I wonder if this fogs some fans overall view of him. Vyners distribution at points is interesting yet nobody seems to want him replaced. 

I also wonder if both his quieter demeanor, smaller stature and the fact he came through the youth setup (which rarely happens for keepers) none of which seem to affect his performances also fog our view of the player we have.

Ive not seen Bajic play so I dont know how good he is, is he a champ backup keeper? If not and we need to get a keeper in (which seems to be the consensus) id still argue we dont need a number one keeper.

Interested to know peoples thoughts?

[Port Said Red]

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

[38MC]

I think he gets a very rough ride from fans. He's a lot better than given credit for. All goalkeepers make mistakes and these tend to lead to goals. His tend to come in quick succession but ultimately over the course of the season I don't think he has more than his peers. In terms of his distribution it's clear he is asked to find players in the wider areas and this is always going to have a lower % of success. But he's following the process and I do think his distribution has improved and will continue to improve. 

He's also soon going to come into his prime. I've seen it said here that he's perfectly good enough for a mid table championship team, I agree with that as a baseline but think he wouldn't look out of place in a promotion chasing side, and I don't think the championship is his ceiling. 

[the1stknowle]

17 minutes ago, Citychuds said:

In my opinion we have a cracking Championship keeper in Max O'leary. I liked Bentley and when he got dropped in favour of Max I was concerned it was a step backwards and maybe a cost cutting exercise. I now feel I was wrong, and wonder if the club just saw Max as the better keeper and therefore didnt need to pay Bentleys high wage. Now id take Max over Bentley any day and comparing him to other Champ keepers I feel we are in a good position. However its clear Max has always been a bit marmite and maybe some fans would happily see him replaced. 

I feel he is cracking at keeping the ball out the net, we dont ship loads of goals he has pulled off a number of excellent stops and has kept us in many games. Has made a few mistakes (Preston etc) but not many and in fairness his timing on coming out or punching is pretty good

The distribution issue is frustrating but I wonder if this fogs some fans overall view of him. Vyners distribution at points is interesting yet nobody seems to want him replaced. 

I also wonder if both his quieter demeanor, smaller stature and the fact he came through the youth setup (which rarely happens for keepers) none of which seem to affect his performances also fog our view of the player we have.

Ive not seen Bajic play so I dont know how good he is, is he a champ backup keeper? If not and we need to get a keeper in (which seems to be the consensus) id still argue we dont need a number one keeper.

Interested to know peoples thoughts?

There seems more confirmation bias with people's opinions of keepers. It is the position where people seem less open to the idea of professional development - drop a few clangers and you are a dodgy keeper, not up to it, need to be shifted, a problem to solve. Whereas other positions are allowed to be inexperienced and develop, probably because their mistakes don't stand out as much. 

Max is clearly a good keeper and is demonstrably improving in performance, confidence and presence (same as the two centre backs in front of him). Not only do I not think he needs to be moved on. I also think he is nowhere near his ceiling and he could get very good. Hopefully fans on here can give him some space and not copy and paste the 'we need new keeper to progress' thread after every defeat.

[The Coach]

Good keeper at this level. Not bad, not amazing.

[transfer reader]

I think he's got a fan club on here that drastically overrate him and are incredibly touchy about any perceived criticism of him.

That said, Max isn't a bad goalkeeper. He's a pretty average one for the Championship who excels at reaction type saves, but lacks in a few other areas.

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

Edited February 14 by transfer reader

[GrahamC]

10 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

 

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

So just like everyone else then.

I think he’s improved significantly this season & looks assured now.

The kicking stuff is minor & the margin of error small.

I doubt very much we are looking to replace him, maybe provide cover but that’s entirely different.

[Sheltons Army]

Max is an interesting one and more and more I’m convinced that something about Max’s look or presence gives a (false) overall ‘impression’ of him

And yep , makes the odd error as every keeper 

Hes a lean lad , like many keepers but it’s simply a thing about how naturally we stand or walk , some have ‘a presence’ , a look that in reality has no actual relevance to ability

I think it may have tinged my own thoughts about Max for a long while , but you have to say if you put that aside , that there aren’t too many keepers that are actually better than him at this level - some may ‘appear’ to be the part , have the look and can impress ... but better ? 
 

His positioning for example is as good as anyone at this level IMO

[Riaz]

Good shot stopper. Makes plenty of saves

But the rest of his game is a bit iffy. Distribution and commanding his area.

For me he's a bottom half championship keeper.

 

[Red Ferret]

That save last night with his left leg from the fierce volley shot was immense. Guys a good goalie 

[Littlesh*t]

24 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

Most clubs do it and last night as an example is why.... Max cleared it straight down the middle and there player won the header and the ball landed straight at the feet of the midfielder who the broke straight onto our defence. 

If you play it to the wing the likelihood of being under pressure is low if you don't win it.

Also straight down the middle a defending team has a major advantage of winning it as you are coming onto the ball where attacking team have to try and flick it on. Put it to the wing as all of a sudden it 50/50 rather than 70/30

[Major Isewater]

Max is the business. No question. As others have said he isn’t at his peak yet. This is , astonishingly, his first  full season as a number one keeper. Bloke’s a novice. 
 

[cheese]

If only he could save penalties!  

Edited February 14 by cheese
Typo

[Super]

3 minutes ago, cheese said:

If only he could save penalties!  

Nearly as bad as Shilton in WC90!

[Selred]

He's a bottom third of the Championship keeper for me.

If we want to hit play offs I don't believe he's the right man between the sticks.

Good shot stopper, but can be flappy, makes a few basic errors from long shots (particularly at near post), and poor kicking.

Depends how ambitious we are.

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Riaz said:

commanding his area.

Depends how you define it I guess.

I don’t want my keeper coming for everything, what I want is a keeper who shouts he’s coming to come, and one who communicated he’s not, to stay on his line.  Max does that pretty well.  When he comes and can catch, he tries to.  If he comes to punch, he punches.

He’s generally a good decision maker, and decisive in his actions.  I think he understands he doesn’t have build to “come through everyone”, so chooses when to do so, wisely.

The soundbites you from the manager (both Nige and LM) is that he is a calming influence on those in-front of him.

Overall I think he is a more than capable Champ keeper.  When I see Patterson at Sunderland lauded, I don’t see him being any better than Max.

As of yet, we don’t know whether Max is reliable should we push on.

Without getting carried away, we might get a chance to see over the remaining 14 league games.

 

[Citychuds]

59 minutes ago, transfer reader said:

I think he's got a fan club on here that drastically overrate him and are incredibly touchy about any perceived criticism of him.

That said, Max isn't a bad goalkeeper. He's a pretty average one for the Championship who excels at reaction type saves, but lacks in a few other areas.

It's not a position that urgently needs upgrading, but I think an upgrade would be needed if we want promotion.

You say lacks in a few areas? Only things I can pinpoint are distribution and penalty stopping. Interested to know where you think he lacks. I say it because I think I underrated him because I thought he lacked a lot more than he seems to when I think about it. Im probably really tempting fate here but I actually believe this is the best ive felt about a keeper and pair of centre backs in a while. 

[ExiledAjax]

He's not the greatest keeper we've ever had but so long as the outfield players are good enough to screen/protect him he's absolutely good enough to be a keeper in a top 6 finish.

He's also a big fat £0 in the amortisation column.

Edited February 14 by ExiledAjax

[cityexile]

As somebody who moons ago plied their trade between the sticks, he gets a rough press, and the No 1 usually does. A striker misses three then pops one in, it’s the goal that gets remembered. A goalie makes three great saves then messes one up it’s the mistake people talk about.

Bentley was decent but for me got stuck on his line far too often. Max will come when he thinks he can win it, and is having I suspect to learn the role of sweeper keeper which he is making a good fist of. That one particularly he will look a wally if and when it goes wrong, as it does for every keeper now and again. His positioning is also good, and often you may think ‘the forward has hit is straight at him, but a good % of that is where he has got himself in the right place. Defence is also about partnerships, and the others around him now know him and what he will do, which is also important.  

As for distribution, it’s not always great but he sometimes has to play low % balls to get us out of trouble, or a high press means no easier pass is on.

He is fine. Every goalie messes up, it’s how often. My only concern is the cover one as I have no idea if we really have a number 2 who is Championship ready.

[MarcusX]

1 hour ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

Sat with a Southampton fan last night and I made these comments to him about Max's distribution - he said he thought he'd been pretty good all night (and better than theirs) and only kicked one out of play all night.

It's quite obvious that Southampton in particular were leaving a lot of space for our wingers, it's definitely the outball for a keeper if a short feet option isn't on.

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, Red Ferret said:

That save last night with his left leg from the fierce volley shot was immense. Guys a good goalie 

But still a shot that you would expect a competent championship keeper to make. I’d have been disappointed if that had gone in.

[Open End Numb Legs]

I am happy with Max. As for saying what his level is, anyone who saw the West Ham game v Arsenal would wonder how Areola gets that job, he was poor.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, The Coach said:

Good keeper at this level. Not bad, not amazing.

How I see it too. Not a "super keeper" but is a competent Championship shot-stopped that I'm happy to have in place next season. The question is whether Bajic is good enough to step in if called upon.

We've been lucky with Max staying uninjured, but it's a position that gets lots of heavy impacts. Goalies, like everyone else, can lose form too.

 

[Dr Balls]

Considering Southampton reportedly paid £12 million for Bazunu and other than that one save when he came out to stop Mehmeti in the first half, did nothing much, I would say Max was at least as good as him, if not better. Interesting as they are both Republic of Ireland keepers. In fact across both teams there were a few Irish internationals last night.

[Pip King]

Has his flaws but a few weeks ago people were saying on here that a new keeper was top of the shopping list in the summer, which is absolute rubbish. Some questionable distribution yesterday but keeps us in the game regularly.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

I wanted to start a new thread on this, not so much Max himself but the tactics of the distribution.

I don't quite understand the passing to the wings, it seems to me that it has a low success percentage, but it has been used by successive managers and goalkeepers. 

If the ball is over hit possession is given away, if it is under hit, you run the risk of an interception that takes the receiving player out of the defensive shape. That's before you have the issue of the likes of Bell and Mehmeti trying win the ball in the air. It's not so bad with Ross and Cam playing, but it still requires a degree of accuracy that few goalkeepers possess. 

Then you have the situation last night where, having made two good blocks and having the crowd calling his name, obviously gets a rush of adrenalin and hoofs the ball a mile out of play.

I don't quite see what the advantage is compared to playing through the middle, unless any of the coaches on here can explain it to me?

I was about to highlight those same two incidents! One minute chanting his name, the next a collective groan!

Down the middle, I guess, equals two or three giant central defenders heading it straight back! Full backs tend to be smaller - and to be fair, when the ball doesn’t sail over his head Bell in particular wins a fair few of them. But I’m no coach!

[italian dave]

12 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Considering Southampton reportedly paid £12 million for Bazunu and other than that one save when he came out to stop Mehmeti in the first half, did nothing much, I would say Max was at least as good as him, if not better. Interesting as they are both Republic of Ireland keepers. In fact across both teams there were a few Irish internationals last night.

I was fascinated by Bazunu last night: surprised it’s not been mentioned more.

Much of the time he seemed to be playing what I knew in my younger days as a sweeper! And some sweepers played even deeper than he did!

The Middlesbrough keeper on Saturday was similar, if a bit less extreme. It felt like we’d talked about that because we tried to lob him from distance a couple of times, but didn’t seem to try that last night

I can see the benefits - but there are obvious risks too…..has he been caught out this season? 

[Open End Numb Legs]

Much like a good wicket keeper in cricket, a good goalie makes the team look better than maybe they are. They are both individual positions and mistakes are glaringly obvious.

Let's get behind Max when he plays (not literally ) as confidence is a key factor.

[Firstyardleftinbed]

 

30 minutes ago, cityexile said:

As somebody who moons ago plied their trade between the sticks, he gets a rough press, and the No 1 usually does. A striker misses three then pops one in, it’s the goal that gets remembered. A goalie makes three great saves then messes one up it’s the mistake people talk about.

Bentley was decent but for me got stuck on his line far too often. Max will come when he thinks he can win it, and is having I suspect to learn the role of sweeper keeper which he is making a good fist of. That one particularly he will look a wally if and when it goes wrong, as it does for every keeper now and again. His positioning is also good, and often you may think ‘the forward has hit is straight at him, but a good % of that is where he has got himself in the right place. Defence is also about partnerships, and the others around him now know him and what he will do, which is also important.  

As for distribution, it’s not always great but he sometimes has to play low % balls to get us out of trouble, or a high press means no easier pass is on.

He is fine. Every goalie messes up, it’s how often. My only concern is the cover one as I have no idea if we really have a number 2 who is Championship ready.

As another older member of the keepers union I agree with all of this.

Max is good all round keeper, he's not the world class shot stopper that some people expect him to be but he does a lot of the 'ugly' stuff well and is pretty consistent. He does make mistakes like any keeper at this level but the more he plays the better he will get and less we'll see any mistakes. By the end of next season, with another full season behind him I think we'll start to see a very good keeper and possibly do well to hold on to him. A bit more pressure from whoever is his # 2 should help this as well 

[Shauntaylor85]

He has improved for sure but no doubt a new keeper is going to be on the list this summer. Someone stronger with ball at feet and genuinely more commanding.