Liam Pre Cardiff

[ExiledAjax]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m struggling tbh.  Yesterday’s interview on the back of what I’d heard changed so much for me.

Ignore the black and white of the next bit and some of the words, I’m just trying to get my head around it - so

Is that right?

Is he under that much pressure over these next 12 games that a contingency plan is needed to get him to the summer?

I guess yes? If you allow your statement to be rephrased as:

"you get 19 games to work your plan with the tools currently available, it doesn’t work, so you then get 12 games at the previous guys plan ,with the tools currently available, to get another chance at your plan in the close season and next season with new tools."

Totally legitimate to say that this isn't fair, isn't what was sold, isn't what was communicated etc. There's also a very fair set of assorted questions around which managers receive a "warchest" and which don't, and to pile pressure onto recruitment to get it spot on in the summer of 2024.

 

Edited March 1 by ExiledAjax

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

 

I said on another thread that tomorrow will tell us a lot. Does he play the brand of football, you mention, just to get a result / performance or does he stick to HIS plan.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

one of the excellent thought provoking posts on this thread

All I’d say , about the bolded bit, and you have said ‘generally’ , I do believe it can be done and done successfully without PP budget

 

But

You need to have a really excellent , top notch On the grass coach , or actually coaching team , not ‘ok’ or ‘decent’

but as well as that significant ask , you also need very good recruitment , and he also needs to have good or better , man management , in game planning and management skills , and the ability to lead

 

Big ask !

 

 

Re bold boy.  This is what me and @Harry debate.  And essentially it boils down to what you’ve said.

What you’ve described requires a transition of managers / head-coach of…Dean Smith to Thomas Frank imho.  The Brentford model, evolution, Rosler, Warburton, Smith, Frank, underpinned by excellent recruitment.

Players are out there to be recruited, playing identity key though.

Knight v Bird is a potential classic case in point.  Both good players.  Knight was such a good fit for Nige’s way of playing.  Bird (on paper) the better fit for Manning.  Although, I think Knight has a higher ceiling.

Just now, exAtyeoMax said:

Would he be allowed to?

Maybe you don't judge him at all…? Because it's not possible. The only mark you can judge him against is his remit from JL and BT.

People said he might have been better at Swansea, perhaps he's not a good fit for this squad?

 

You might well be right.

[Sir Geoff]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

“Here are my principles - if you don’t like them I have others”

The bolded bit is vital here. If you remember Blackburn away where we were godawful, then went for it from about the hour. A bit kitchen sink, but a bit of a “Pearson” performance. Liam admitted he’d been overloading the players and it looked as if he might have got a bit more of an idea as to how to best set the squad for a while. He then gradually reverted to type - and there’s nothing wrong with that if that’s how he wants to play - but I’d be totally of the mind that based on history he would do exactly what you say.

And that just wastes 12 games for nothing. He should be treating this as an extended pre season. I think he’s treating it as results at any costs to save his job.

 

A few days before that at Huddersfield we were not great (had a good spell in the first half down the right side) and only got back into the game with a typical NP style goal. Quick break down the left ball cut back to......oh yes Tommy Conway.

[Sir Geoff]

45 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Some really good thought provoking posts on this thread
 

My issue is that it’s actually wider than LM and whether he’s a success or not

With the ethos and philosophies LM has and the suitability of the current squad for him etc

 I would like to know from BT , whether we decided to abandon our repeated  athletic , pacy , front football playing blueprint , with sensibly recruitment to match , to a different playing ethos , more methodical and control based shall we say , and then they identified a Head Coach to deliver this  and recruited LM

Or did they bin Pearson , identify LM as the next bright thing and go for him realising that it meant doing a left turn not only on the playing blueprint , but recruitment too ?

No one has asked Tinnion or Lansdown about this and the implications or plan going forward

If LM doesn’t work out - where do we go then ?

Hunt for another coach with a very similar or identical philosophy ?

Shove that to one side and recruit what we see as the best manager / Head Coach available , with playing ethos irrelevant ? 
 

Id like to know where we now see the playing and philosophy and vital recruitment to match it , whether under LM or a succesor(s) , is going forward and whether we have an actual plan now.

 

 

Still , I at least I have every confidence in Brian and Jon 

Don't worry Ian Gay will ask them when they appear, as promised on FBC.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

Don't worry Ian Gay will ask them when they appear, as promised on FBC.

I’m on after Ipswich.

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m on after Ipswich.

[Silvio Dante]

19 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

I said on another thread that tomorrow will tell us a lot. Does he play the brand of football, you mention, just to get a result / performance or does he stick to HIS plan.

It’s almost like they’ve really put themselves between a rock and a hard place.
 

For Liam, If he sticks to his plan then he gets accused of not having adaptability. If he plays another way, there’s no confidence he’s not doing it to try and stumble his way to the summer.

For Brian, if he doesn’t pull the trigger early he’s seen as lacking any courage. If he does pull the trigger early he’s shown up for making a really bad call initially and does that make the position untenable. 

For the Lansdowns, if they do back Liam in the summer there’s a very real risk that we may still need to get rid in the new season and end up with players not suiting the new manager. If they don’t back him then it’s arguable his risk of failure increases.

It’s a mess.

[Sheltons Army]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Get on there Silvio

You would make a good addition  

[petehinton]

Re watching this as I watched initially yesterday fleetingly, it doesn’t fill me with much confidence at all and to date I’ve been LM as a pretty decent communicator really. He looked and sounded like he didn’t really have a decent idea or answer for anything that Piercy asked. And the answers he did give, were pretty much at odds with what he’s said/the club have said in the past. 
 

Heard at the time that Twine’s injury was more serious than they were letting on, and I think it’s quite clearly the case imo given LM’s answer of ‘it’s not a concern, but it is frustrating’ and basically admitting that they don’t know what it is, is definitely concerning, let alone frustrating!!

I think he is starting to properly feel the stress & weight of it all. 

[ExiledAjax]

37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

For Liam, If he sticks to his plan then he gets accused of not having adaptability. If he plays another way, there’s no confidence he’s not doing it to try and stumble his way to the summer.

The first part of this I agree with. If his plan is clearly inoperable right now then sticking to it can be construed as sheer bloody-mindedness. But flexing can be seen as sensible pragmatism rather than an attempt to stumble along.

37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

For Brian, if he doesn’t pull the trigger early he’s seen as lacking any courage. If he does pull the trigger early he’s shown up for making a really bad call initially and does that make the position untenable. 

Personally if he did the second of your options I'd respect him. So long as Brian took ownership of the bad call, held his hands up, and explained what he was doing differently to avoid making a second error, I think it would be fine and I'd hope most fans would see it that way. I don't think it makes his position untenable (as much as I disagree with the corporate set up that we have).

37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

For the Lansdowns, if they do back Liam in the summer there’s a very real risk that we may still need to get rid in the new season and end up with players not suiting the new manager. If they don’t back him then it’s arguable his risk of failure increases.

Doesn't this apply every summer and to every manager? See last summer for an example. Pearson not backed as far as he possibly could have been, and then failed to progress us significantly further than he had already done in 2023/24.

That was a thought provoking post btw.

Edited March 1 by ExiledAjax

[Bazooka Joe]

20 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Top of my head these were all poor performances. 

Fella should be a used car salesman.

He'd probably fail the MoT test.

Management or Tactics.

[exAtyeoMax]

34 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

It’s almost like they’ve really put themselves between a rock and a hard place.
 

For Liam, If he sticks to his plan then he gets accused of not having adaptability. If he plays another way, there’s no confidence he’s not doing it to try and stumble his way to the summer.

For Brian, if he doesn’t pull the trigger early he’s seen as lacking any courage. If he does pull the trigger early he’s shown up for making a really bad call initially and does that make the position untenable. 

For the Lansdowns, if they do back Liam in the summer there’s a very real risk that we may still need to get rid in the new season and end up with players not suiting the new manager. If they don’t back him then it’s arguable his risk of failure increases.

It’s a mess.

Would SL move JL aside if he felt he wasn't achieving enough for the club?

LM shouldn't be stumbling anywhere! Is it LM's plan or BT's?

BT should hold his hands up and admit he got it wrong…I'd have far more resect for him if he did that, and JL too

[One Team]

45 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Would SL move JL aside if he felt he wasn't achieving enough for the club?

LM shouldn't be stumbling anywhere! Is it LM's plan or BT's?

BT should hold his hands up and admit he got it wrong…I'd have far more resect for him if he did that, and JL too

Weirdly it would be a way of getting back some credibility and support from fans; that is, if this continues that Manning leaves and they admit they got it wrong. Not that I’d trust them to replace him with the right person mind you! 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, One Team said:

Weirdly it would be a way of getting back some credibility and support from fans; that is, if this continues that Manning leaves and they admit they got it wrong. Not that I’d trust them to replace him with the right person mind you! 

no…

[Sheltons Army]

6 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

no…

 

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Personally if he did the second of your options I'd respect him. So long as Brian took ownership of the bad call, held his hands up, and explained what he was doing differently to avoid making a second error, I think it would be fine and I'd hope most fans would see it that way. I don't think it makes his position untenable (as much as I disagree with the corporate set up that we have).

 

 

59 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

BT should hold his hands up and admit he got it wrong…I'd have far more resect for him if he did that, and JL too

 

11 minutes ago, One Team said:

Weirdly it would be a way of getting back some credibility and support from fans; that is, if this continues that Manning leaves and they admit they got it wrong. Not that I’d trust them to replace him with the right person mind you! 

One thing we know about Tinnion is that he is very much about self preservation. If his job started being questioned because of Liam, I’ve no doubt he’d recommend his removal. But to keep currency he would need to do that relatively early. In effect Tinnion either needs Manning to be a roaring success - and soon - or remove him quickly to retain credibility. If we sleepwalk into a November decision then Brian can claim no credit.

And I don’t think anyone trusts him to pick a replacement. But that in and of itself isn’t a reason not to act if that’s the right thing.

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Doesn't this apply every summer and to every manager? See last summer for an example. Pearson not backed as far as he possibly could have been, and then failed to progress us significantly further than he had already done in 2023/24.

 

And on this bit - ish. There are some summers backing isn’t needed (set squad) or maybe the level of backing isn’t as much because of the expectations. Pearson isn’t a great example because it was wilful sabotage tbh (outcome the same). The big deal here is Liam needs major backing in the summer to get near to that 24/25 success as he seems to be saying he can’t do it with these players - hence the quandary 

[One Team]

24 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

 

The prodigal sons return?

I can see the social media video now, “Unfinished Business”! 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, One Team said:

The prodigal sons return?

I can see the social media video now, “Unfinished Business”! 

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, One Team said:

The prodigal sons return?

I can see the social media video now, “Unfinished Business”! 

I wouldn't put it past the dimwits, tbh.

So thanks for ruining my evening.

[ExiledAjax]

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

One thing we know about Tinnion is that he is very much about self preservation. If his job started being questioned because of Liam, I’ve no doubt he’d recommend his removal. But to keep currency he would need to do that relatively early. In effect Tinnion either needs Manning to be a roaring success - and soon - or remove him quickly to retain credibility. If we sleepwalk into a November decision then Brian can claim no credit.

And I don’t think anyone trusts him to pick a replacement. But that in and of itself isn’t a reason not to act if that’s the right thing.

I think here we have transgressed from what is possible under any "Tecknikal Director" to the realm of what is likely under the current incumbent. From the little I know of Tinnion I think I agree with you that he tends to ruthlessness only when pushed to do so by threat to his own position. I don't think such a threat will come from within the club this season and so I suspect we will stick with Manning through to the summer, at which point we are effectively with him until such time as a top end finish looks unlikely. With the CEO role extinguished Tinnion's only bosses on the football side of things are the shareholders, and they seem content at this moment. Fan pressure or grumbling or bed sheets will do the square root of **** all.

I agree with the bit in bold above because any fool can do that.

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

And on this bit - ish. There are some summers backing isn’t needed (set squad) or maybe the level of backing isn’t as much because of the expectations. Pearson isn’t a great example because it was wilful sabotage tbh (outcome the same). The big deal here is Liam needs major backing in the summer to get near to that 24/25 success as he seems to be saying he can’t do it with these players - hence the quandary 

Not to tread over old ground but Pearson's departure was an acceleration of the inevitable. As such I don't see much relevance in any possible "sabotage". He was going. It was only a matter of time. Edit: In. My. Opinion.

As to your final part; yes, there's a quandary. I feel like I lean to what I voted for in your poll: stick, back, and assess early next season. Perhaps this makes me the fool that I refer to above.

However, I think that Manning's target style of football gives us a better chance of promotion than the alternative that we have discussed. This does mean major backing in the summer (not quite a rebuild, but a realignment certainly). We have discussed the merits of these options.

I reserve the right to reassess after the next few matches.

Edited March 1 by ExiledAjax

[One Team]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good album Fevs!

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Not to tread over old ground but Pearson's departure was an acceleration of the inevitable. As such I don't see much relevance in any possible "sabotage". He was going. It was only a matter of time.

It’s, buts and maybes….but we can’t be sure that he wouldn’t have got to this point of season with us closer to the POs and them having to think about extending his time here.

Don't get me wrong they were looking for a way out and they took it, but I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to think that there were a range of possibilities that might’ve resulted in them having to think very different.

[ExiledAjax]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It’s, buts and maybes….but we can’t be sure that he wouldn’t have got to this point of season with us closer to the POs and them having to think about extending his time here.

Don't get me wrong they were looking for a way out and they took it, but I don’t think it’s too far-fetched to think that there were a range of possibilities that might’ve resulted in them having to think very different.

In my opinion then. I'm not interested in going over that old ground. You know what I think about the prospects we had under Pearson.

[exAtyeoMax]

25 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Not to tread over old ground but Pearson's departure was an acceleration of the inevitable. As such I don't see much relevance in any possible "sabotage". He was going. It was only a matter of time. Edit: In. My. Opinion.

I think a lot of us discussed his retirement. I think most people expected a natural progression, maybe Nige choosing his successor, or being involved in some capacity, there was even talk about Andy King sometime in the future.

I didn't expect those in charge to sack him and start all over again with a completely new approach, possibly undoing all the good that Nige had accomplished. I had more faith in Nige's experience, knowledge  and contacts than JL and certainly BT!

[Numero Uno]

Pearson is the ultimate pragmatist as a manager. He played a style to the budget he had and started to make it clear that if the club wanted anything different they would need to give him some of the Scott money. That was the final nail in his coffin. The thing that makes me annoyed is if you backed Pearson I’m sure he could have attracted better players than the current manager. They would have cost more than the owner was prepared to pay, that’s the crux of it. So we are hoping that Manning conjures lower league diamonds out of a hat now!!

[NcnsBcfc]

All I'm looking for with the game tomorrow is some form a reaction from either the team or the management in regard to the formation played.

I travelled up to Sheffield last week, hoping for the above after the QPR game and what we got was a formation in which LM had previously got "0" league wins and a serious lack of commitment and attitude that if it happens tomorrow I'll be calling LM out on the FBC podcast on Sunday morning.

I can deal with being outplayed (Leeds), but QPR and Sheff Weds to me outlined more serious issues at play.

[The Bard]

21 hours ago, Galley is our king said:

I know there are plenty of candidates for the walkout but.... may I humbly suggest 0-4 down at half time home to Leicester under SOD?

 

McInnes

[Colemanballs]

Excellent thread this.