Liam Pre Cardiff

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yes, and since I posted I had the thought that actually it's not as simple as "can we finish 6th?". It's more "can we finish 6th in 2024/25".

Because next season is the best chance for a while in my opinion. Good financial base, good age structure in the squad (as it stands), good purchasing power. We need to leverage these aligning stars and push for top 6 next season.

So we don't have time to give the project 3 years. So even if you think Manning's style will work, it needs to work next season. He needs to go from A-Z in the next 6 months. He's got one transfer window and one pre-season imo.

If you don't think that's possible or even likely, then it's fair to hold a belief that we should ditch him, get someone who can take develop this squad a little bit, and get us in with a chance of positively exploiting the good position we will be in next season.

Nicely summarised. 
 

If you look at @Harrys posts of how Liam wants to play and work from there, specifically the things we “don’t have”, then I’d be of the mind that getting it right this summer alone would be pretty unlikely - we’re just too far away from “Z”, to call it that, even before you factor in recruitment would have to be spot on and cost an arm and a leg.

So, you’re probably back to in 24/25 can Liam get the best out of what will be the majority of this squad, and in turn can that take us to top six? I’m not sure many would answer in the affirmative as we stand.

[Tim Monaghan]

15 hours ago, CS Red said:

Out of his head.

In 33 years before Manning had taken over I had only walked out of one game. 

Since Manning taking over I've walked out of 3.

If this is what he believes we will have a lot of poor performance coming are way.

You didn't walk out of any of the dross that SOD or Benny Lennartsson fed us? You have my respect. 

[Silvio Dante]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Not sure about that. Didn't work for LJ. For me at least. 

Bullsh** is Bullsh**.

It just goes by different naaaaames….

[Jeez]

21 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The biggest bit (sorry!) there is probably the transition. I’ve posted elsewhere that I do genuinely see what a “good” Liam Manning team looks like because I understand how he wants to play. The thing is that it’s not really using the base, it’s more starting over. And he can’t go from A>Z (had more opportunity to do so at Oxford because of relative ability to recruit).

But can he go from A>B, B>C etc until he gets to Z?

And that’s the biggest bit (sorry, again) - the way Liam wants to play may have more chance of getting us top 6 (debate, discuss etc) - but are we confident he’d be able to manage through the transitions to get there without the Big Bang? The lack of adaptability and in game management to date raises a pretty big question mark.

Good convo though
 

 

This is a good point - whilst he’s not hitting the brief right now, with the appropriate support & recruitment designed to match his style of play we stand more of a chance of top 6.

The timing was all off with the hire, but we’re here now & accept he’s in the role - over to the powers that be to put their money where their mouth is & build a top 6 squad that matches the coaches philosophy because they took us to this situation.

[exAtyeoMax]

hmm. My opinion isn't relevant. 

Just surface level fluff.

[Major Isewater]

7 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

hmm. My opinion isn't relevant. 

Just surface level fluff.

Join the club. 

[One Team]

I don’t think many people would expect much, if anything, out of the Ipswich game mid week but tomorrow and the next home game against Swansea are crucial for Manning IMHO.

Win both and he will win some favour. Lose one or both but play well and perhaps some muted discontent and praise. Lose one or both badly and it will be quite toxic.

Edited March 1 by One Team

[ExiledAjax]

45 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

If you look at @Harrys posts of how Liam wants to play and work from there, specifically the things we “don’t have”, then I’d be of the mind that getting it right this summer alone would be pretty unlikely - we’re just too far away from “Z”, to call it that, even before you factor in recruitment would have to be spot on and cost an arm and a leg.

Absolutely. I said at the time of the change from Pearson to Manning that either Manning or the squad would need to adapt to the other. Seemingly the decision Manning has made is that it's the squad that must ultimately adapt to him. Ok, but then as we say can that be done quickly enough to capitalise on the positive opportunity we have in 2024/25? You say no. I say perhaps.

47 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

So, you’re probably back to in 24/25 can Liam get the best out of what will be the majority of this squad, and in turn can that take us to top six? I’m not sure many would answer in the affirmative as we stand.

A fair opinion to hold. 

So the follow on question is can someone else come in and do it? Someone available. Someone employable. Someone persuadable. 

I don't know enough about managers and assistant managers and various German U23 or B team managers to answer that. But I think this is the question that if answered tells you whether we change now or give Manning an opportunity to prove you wrong.

[cidered abroad]

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely. I said at the time of the change from Pearson to Manning that either Manning or the squad would need to adapt to the other. Seemingly the decision Manning has made is that it's the squad that must ultimately adapt to him. Ok, but then as we say can that be done quickly enough to capitalise on the positive opportunity we have in 2024/25? You say no. I say perhaps.

A fair opinion to hold. 

So the follow on question is can someone else come in and do it? Someone available. Someone employable. Someone persuadable. 

I don't know enough about managers and assistant managers and various German U23 or B team managers to answer that. But I think this is the question that if answered tells you whether we change now or give Manning an opportunity to prove you wrong.

Change now while we aren't in real danger of the drop! And early enough to plan for next season.

Also if there was any doubt that Conway would want a move this summer, that is a 100% certainty that he will go. What a waste of a good striker.

Edited March 1 by cidered abroad

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

You say that - I had to listen to it twice so I could scribe the 1 in 20 quote and confirm the context!

Turn on CC-Subtitles and use the pause button!  Takes 3 hours, but you only listen once

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Even Ian Gay said give him until October. Don’t know if it was his own opinion or the inside track from Tinnion, but that interview makes me think the endgame is closer than many suspect - he clearly is under pressure from somewhere, whether that’s internal or from reading the forum etc and reacting who knows.

Re STs I will be renewing come what may. Yes, I’m a lemming. But it was my club before it was Lansdowns, before it was Tinnions, before it was Mannings and it’ll be my club when they’re long gone. 

Liam or Ian?

1 hour ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Reminds me of Michael Duff at Swansea, just not the right fit and because that fit wasn't right Swansea now paying for that. 

Ironically Manning has had the same amount of games as Duff this season and their records are almost identical.

I had Duff as a potential candidate here in time.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Change now while we aren't in real danger of the drop! And early enough to plan for next season.

Also if there was any doubt that Conway would want a move this summer, that is a 100% certainty that he will go. What a waste of a good striker.

Isn't your first paragraph exactly what we did in October?

Conway will do what Conway wants to do. Do I want an academy lad from Taunton to fire us to promotion? Absolutely. But should the management and coaching personnel be employed simply to favour him? Not at all.

Edited March 1 by ExiledAjax

[Silvio Dante]

8 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely. I said at the time of the change from Pearson to Manning that either Manning or the squad would need to adapt to the other. Seemingly the decision Manning has made is that it's the squad that must ultimately adapt to him. Ok, but then as we say can that be done quickly enough to capitalise on the positive opportunity we have in 2024/25? You say no. I say perhaps.

A fair opinion to hold. 

So the follow on question is can someone else come in and do it? Someone available. Someone employable. Someone persuadable. 

I don't know enough about managers and assistant managers and various German U23 or B team managers to answer that. But I think this is the question that if answered tells you whether we change now or give Manning an opportunity to prove you wrong.

The obvious point on the last piece is that the board twisted in this position before (and this isn’t a bring back Nige post) - they didn’t think Pearson would take us forward so twisted on what I think we all have to acknowledge now was a bit of a punt (I said punt). Now, if you’re in a position where that punt isn’t showing major signs of it working next season with the squad you have, then it makes perfect sense to try someone else - and back to point one, someone probably better suited to that squad.

I don’t think they did last time because I think Liam being appointed was a mixture of panic (he was hot and they thought he may be out of reach if that continued) and opportunity (the injuries/losses) but I sincerely hope Tinnion is scoping alternate candidates already - that’s just good planning - and this time, doing proper due diligence (I think Liam was on the list but clearly, he wasn’t a fit and something went wrong)

[Silvio Dante]

46 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

hmm. My opinion isn't relevant. 

Just surface level fluff.

Opinions totally relevant Max, you’re a longstanding quality poster

*Unless of course you were going to disagree with me, in which case do one

[ExiledAjax]

12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The obvious point on the last piece is that the board twisted in this position before (and this isn’t a bring back Nige post) - they didn’t think Pearson would take us forward so twisted on what I think we all have to acknowledge now was a bit of a punt (I said punt). Now, if you’re in a position where that punt isn’t showing major signs of it working next season with the squad you have, then it makes perfect sense to try someone else - and back to point one, someone probably better suited to that squad.

I don’t think they did last time because I think Liam being appointed was a mixture of panic (he was hot and they thought he may be out of reach if that continued) and opportunity (the injuries/losses) but I sincerely hope Tinnion is scoping alternate candidates already - that’s just good planning - and this time, doing proper due diligence (I think Liam was on the list but clearly, he wasn’t a fit and something went wrong)

Yes, and I'm on record as agreeing with the twist and the punt. Because I didn't think Pearson would take us forward, Manning was hot, and the opportunity was there.

And so yes, back to point one. I would agree that if it is absolutely clear that making another change increases our chances of promotion next season then it should be done.

I'm honestly not really sure on my own answer to that at this stage.

Edited March 1 by ExiledAjax

[supercidered]

I've mainly been reading this topic over the past couple of days and haven't posted much on OTIB lately. However, it is pretty depressing reading. I'm certainly not having a dig at any posts or contributor here. Just shows what a mess we are in and the mess that could get worse. A lot worse.

There is the other side of the coin where everything falls in to place and we have a great summer, pre-season and we look the Mutts Nuts come August.  As a City fan of over 50 years, I just can't see that happening. 

Anyway, myself and others like me have been through more depressing times than the current times. See you all at the Gate tomorrow.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

The obvious point on the last piece is that the board twisted in this position before (and this isn’t a bring back Nige post) - they didn’t think Pearson would take us forward so twisted on what I think we all have to acknowledge now was a bit of a punt (I said punt). Now, if you’re in a position where that punt isn’t showing major signs of it working next season with the squad you have, then it makes perfect sense to try someone else - and back to point one, someone probably better suited to that squad.

I don’t think they did last time because I think Liam being appointed was a mixture of panic (he was hot and they thought he may be out of reach if that continued) and opportunity (the injuries/losses) but I sincerely hope Tinnion is scoping alternate candidates already - that’s just good planning - and this time, doing proper due diligence (I think Liam was on the list but clearly, he wasn’t a fit and something went wrong)

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

 

[ExiledAjax]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

Absolutely he'll be pragmatic only so far as he needs to be in order to get himself to a point where he can change to his own system. Which is also what we saw Pearson do early in his tenure.

But I acknowledge that Pearson had the time to do it. We were never looking to challenge under the financial mess we were in, and so he had the time to slowly (oh so, so very very slowly) move towards his favoured methods, systems and indeed "principles". Manning doesn't have that time imo because the brief has changed from the brief Pearson had.

So what do you judge him on? I'd counsel you judge him on the rate of acceleration towards where we need to be in order to seriously be considered a top end squad (for me that's a squad likely capable of delivering a top 8 finish).

Are we showing the required rate of improvement? 

Not right now I think. But that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do it soon. Next three games are important I agree.

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

 

“Here are my principles - if you don’t like them I have others”

The bolded bit is vital here. If you remember Blackburn away where we were godawful, then went for it from about the hour. A bit kitchen sink, but a bit of a “Pearson” performance. Liam admitted he’d been overloading the players and it looked as if he might have got a bit more of an idea as to how to best set the squad for a while. He then gradually reverted to type - and there’s nothing wrong with that if that’s how he wants to play - but I’d be totally of the mind that based on history he would do exactly what you say.

And that just wastes 12 games for nothing. He should be treating this as an extended pre season. I think he’s treating it as results at any costs to save his job.

 

[Roe]

Probably not entirely relevant to this thread, and somewhat harsh on Manning, but I still can't help be majorly disappointed that we got rid of decent, respected, experienced football people (Pearson, Flemming, Euell, Rennie) and replaced them with this. What a waste

 

[Clevedon Red]

2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Re STs I will be renewing come what may. Yes, I’m a lemming. But it was my club before it was Lansdowns, before it was Tinnions, before it was Mannings and it’ll be my club when they’re long gone. 

Amen to that brother

[exAtyeoMax]

23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Opinions totally relevant Max, you’re a longstanding quality poster

*Unless of course you were going to disagree with me, in which case do one

I laughed at "quality poster"  

I'm getting bored of the whole scenario. It's not a dig at these discussions at all but this club needs real change, and I can't see it happening anytime soon. Many others have said the same. 

[RSW8]

6 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I laughed at "quality poster"  

I'm getting bored of the whole scenario. It's not a dig at these discussions at all but this club needs real change, and I can't see it happening anytime soon. Many others have said the same. 

Yep, it just feels all so completely unnecessary and self-inflicted to me. One of the major things a football club needs in order to be successful is stability and for whatever reason, the powers that be decided in their wisdom to just throw that out of the window. Poor decision making yet again….

[Sheltons Army]

Some really good thought provoking posts on this thread
 

My issue is that it’s actually wider than LM and whether he’s a success or not

With the ethos and philosophies LM has and the suitability of the current squad for him etc

 I would like to know from BT , whether we decided to abandon our repeated  athletic , pacy , front football playing blueprint , with sensibly recruitment to match , to a different playing ethos , more methodical and control based shall we say , and then they identified a Head Coach to deliver this  and recruited LM

Or did they bin Pearson , identify LM as the next bright thing and go for him realising that it meant doing a left turn not only on the playing blueprint , but recruitment too ?

No one has asked Tinnion or Lansdown about this and the implications or plan going forward

If LM doesn’t work out - where do we go then ?

Hunt for another coach with a very similar or identical philosophy ?

Shove that to one side and recruit what we see as the best manager / Head Coach available , with playing ethos irrelevant ? 
 

Id like to know where we now see the playing and philosophy and vital recruitment to match it , whether under LM or a succesor(s) , is going forward and whether we have an actual plan now.

 

 

Still , I at least I have every confidence in Brian and Jon 

[Sheltons Army]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

 

one of the excellent thought provoking posts on this thread

All I’d say , about the bolded bit, and you have said ‘generally’ , I do believe it can be done and done successfully without PP budget

 

But

You need to have a really excellent , top notch On the grass coach , or actually coaching team , not ‘ok’ or ‘decent’

but as well as that significant ask , you also need very good recruitment , and he also needs to have good or better , man management , in game planning and management skills , and the ability to lead

 

Big ask !

 

 

Edited March 1 by Sheltons Army

[Clutton Caveman]

20 hours ago, chinapig said:

This mindset bothers me. It implies he's right regardless of the outcome. Not encouraging to be as rigid in your approach as he seems to be. Good leaders in any context are open to the possibility that they may be wrong.

He keeps saying this but it comes across as he's doing fine it's the players' fault.

These sort of things don't come across to me as 'good behaviours'.

Sounding more like LJ each day

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Absolutely he'll be pragmatic only so far as he needs to be in order to get himself to a point where he can change to his own system. Which is also what we saw Pearson do early in his tenure.

But I acknowledge that Pearson had the time to do it. We were never looking to challenge under the financial mess we were in, and so he had the time to slowly (oh so, so very very slowly) move towards his favoured methods, systems and indeed "principles". Manning doesn't have that time imo because the brief has changed from the brief Pearson had.

So what do you judge him on? I'd counsel you judge him on the rate of acceleration towards where we need to be in order to seriously be considered a top end squad (for me that's a squad likely capable of delivering a top 8 finish).

Are we showing the required rate of improvement? 

Not right now I think. But that doesn't necessarily mean we can't do it soon. Next three games are important I agree.

I’m struggling tbh.  Yesterday’s interview on the back of what I’d heard changed so much for me.

Ignore the black and white of the next bit and some of the words, I’m just trying to get my head around it - so you get 19 games to work your plan, it doesn’t work, so you then get 12 games at the previous guys plan, to get another chance at your plan in the close season and next season.

Is that right?

Is he under that much pressure over these next 12 games that a contingency plan is needed to get him to the summer?

[RedRock]

4 hours ago, cellist said:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/68431928

Heard this interview with Warnock today after Aberdeen had lost at St Johnstone and thought it made an interesting comparison. Fans chanting "you're not fit to wear the shirt and sack the board." Of course the situations are very different - he inherited a team underperforming in the bottom half, we were in a decent position and have a "top six squad"...

He's also very critical of his playing staff. More of their attitude and integrity rather than playing ability or "ability to learn". And silly mistakes - "I don't care if you're Pep Guardiola, if you concede goals like that you're going to lose games". I guess his reputation in the game allows him to do that - and it isn't a sulky, off the cuff, defensive comment. It's a challenge to his players - that's his man management style.

Difference is the honesty and straightforwardness though. "We played well in the two home games, but if we play like that we won't win another game". "I understand the fans, they deserve better". No hiding behind coach-speak, no nonsense comments about 1 bad performance in 20. Hard work on the training ground required.

Not for a moment suggesting we appoint Colin! But why can't we have a manager/some leadership who respect the fans and don't hind behind bullshit, and just tell things how they are?

Obviously we did have that, and that ship has sadly sailed. LM not helping himself when results and performances aren't good. Needs a win on Saturday that's for sure.

Colin could’ve done so much with this Club. 

Hey Ho…. maybe SL could swallow his pride and just let him do our press conferences once in a while. 

[Malvern Red]

2 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

I keep coming back the Oxford fans view, that it's like being managed by a robot.

Yes his tactics and team talks seem to generated by ChatGPT prompts

[exAtyeoMax]

14 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

one of the excellent thought provoking posts on this thread

All I’d say , about the bolded bit, and you have said ‘generally’ , I do believe it can be done and done successfully without PP budget

 

But

You need to have a really excellent , top notch On the grass coach , or actually coaching team , not ‘ok’ or ‘decent’

but as well as that significant ask , you also need very good recruitment , and he also needs to have good or better , man management , in game planning and management skills , and the ability to lead

 

Big ask !

 

 

perhaps he's not as good as he thinks he is?

As a non expert on football, I judge him on his man management and his ability to change tactics and affect games. The same with LJ whose philosophy was "go hung ho"

I think we need a manager, not a head coach. 

[exAtyeoMax]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The issue now for me, is what do I judge him on?

Just imagine he gets us back on track / improves us playing more of the Nige brand of football.  He’s only doing that to get him to the summer, when he’s gonna toss it in the bin, and recruit to go back to his way.  Why not be open-minded about what works and what didn’t.  And what if we regress further?

Surely, this was the time to stick to his plan, with no fear (little fear) of playoffs or relegation.

Following on from yesterday’s press conference where is his critical analysis of his own approach / method / style.

As others have said, playing the type of football he wants to play generally requires a PP budget.  We won’t ever have that until we get relegated from the PL (see the problem)!

This has turned into a pivotal two or three games because of yesterday.

 

Would he be allowed to? :laugh:

Maybe you don't judge him at all…? Because it's not possible. The only mark you can judge him against is his remit from JL and BT.

People said he might have been better at Swansea, perhaps he's not a good fit for this squad?