Cowshed

22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Look at the quality of their players. We don’t have the same technical ability and should play to our strengths. 
When are we going to attract the best Championship quality footballers to our club? 
 

I was answering a point the poster made regarding 90% can't do it, and win anything. The point is uneven.

Liam Manning is developing and integrating his football into the team. This will take time and will require compromises due to resources  (Mr Lansdown). Development is linear. This is stage one. The basics are being established the squad has players who will cope, and players who can't technically, and any squad will have those who won't do.  

An evaluation after months. Key positions need strengthening. Key positions need strengthening to play the possession football Mr Manning wants. Last nights failure was an expectation, its going to happen, this team is being developed, and has players in key positions that significantly tactically limit its scope. That is not a reason to bin the intent, morph through styles (LJ), get loads of players of differing qualities costing shitloads of money (LJ) its a reason to marginally improve pragmatically elements in the quest to get closer to the coaches vision. 

13 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

It is not just us though

90% of teams cant do it 

The only teams i have seen win anything on a regular basis playing like this are Peps teams Man City and Barca

Most teams playing this type of football lose the ball in their own 3rd more often than they make chances to score

Stop ducking about and get the ball into the other half of the pitch Then start playing football

I would question where you are getting your stats from. 

The top four in the division play forms of possession football. Burnley last season? Another yes. 

12 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I don't think possession football is the problem, I think it's possession football with this group of players.

We saw the natural issue of Manning-ball with a Pearson squad, against a team who are extremely effective at denying time and space to their opponent. Our players wanted an extra second on the ball tonight they didn't have - and it's because they aren't players who have the qualities needed to play possession football. It's not their fault, that's not why they were brought here.

A point I have made at GK  CB  and CM the team needs players with key qualities on the ball.  The quality is they cant be be average on the ball, they have to be good enough to link up play, play simple quick early reset and switch and at times take possession in tight spaces and keep it. The team needs these leaders and cultural architects to meet the expectations and intent of the model CIty are playing to.

And these players are? 

29 minutes ago, Spike said:

He's not as bad as people make out and I'm very interested to see if the club agree and most importantly if they can deliver a better quality keeper than Max in the Championship. 

The kind of keeper we need isn't an easy find,

What kind?

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

 

Considering the team intent, the teams build up play what are the fundamental qualities necessary in the number one? Average ability to distribute the ball, below average or good? 

Do Max O'Leary qualities make him a suitable player for a possession based team playing positional football? 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Spike said:

But this includes long kicks where for the most part we have no one to aim for as very few of our attacking players have the strength and size to take the pass. 

 

But this includes? Range. Variety of passes x length. Short and long and multiple surfaces (striking parts of the foot). 

Considering the team intent, the teams build up play what are the fundamental qualities necessary in the number one? Average ability to distribute the ball, below average or good? 

Do Max O'Leary qualities make him a suitable player for a possession based team playing positional football? 

12 minutes ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

It depends, which emotion are you referring to? There's more than one you know (not that you'd know it, taking in a Liam Manning interview).

Would the emotion of curiosity or disgust feed poor decision making? What about prowed? 

I thought we played quite emotionally v West Ham, not that we'd get away with ruffling the opposition's emotions like that every week in the Championship, not at Elland Road.

Prowed punched a horse. On a scale of poor decisions? Poor. 

Disgust triggers the insula, along with anger and fear. Primitive fight and flight response. Acting with anger, disgust, fear are frequently poor decision making. Its a subconscious highly reactive defensive mechanism.

I feel City played with intensity, controlled intensity v West Ham. Intensity that was intelligent.

Just now, 1960maaan said:

Exactly the point I was making.

Love to see that stats about passing accuracy and see the comparisons , what site do you use ?

You can check whoscoredwho. And this site - Championship Goalkeeper Stats | FBref.com

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

I think most have favs and some they just don't take too it's natural IMO.
Cornick , Mehmeti & Max and other come in for over the top praise and criticism at times. 
I've defended Max over the last season or two , I think he was better for the team than Bentley. But I can see when he drops a bollock too. The last month or so he has been so much quicker to act as a sweeper, which is fine but it's not natural to him. It cost us at Preston and there was one last night too. Vyner chasing back , looked like he could nod it back but Max had charged out, didn't cost us so quickly forgotten , but to me a worry. The first goal looks crap , but comes through a crowd , being harsh you could maybe question his positioning but I don't think he did too much wrong. The second is bad , it's almost too close to him to push it wide and so he surely has to try and catch it , it wasn't that hard a shot. Because it did cost us a goal, and being late on it cost points , it adds weight to the he's not good enough argument . 
I would like to know who we could bring in, and how we pay for a top end Championship keeper. 

Sweeping is not natural. It is instruction. O'learys interventions have increased due to instruction. 

In regards to your last line the keepers qualities should meet the team intent. Liam Manning has stated he wants to dominate possession. How does the keepers qualities meet that intent and principle? Max O'leary passing accuracy is amongst the worst in the division. 

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Emotion feeds dreams and visions. 
 

Emotion will also feed poor decision making. The more emotional we become the poorer our decisions frequently will become. Footballers need to engage their intelligent minds more rather than the primitive. 

1 hour ago, Lrrr said:

Actually statistically Max is a more then fair Championship keeper & ranks in the top half 

What rankings and statistics are you using? 

Championship Goalkeeper Stats | FBref.com

17 hours ago, Robbored said:

Sure it’s early days for Manning but many are trying to understand what he’s looking to implement which is exactly why it get’s discussed on here.

I openly admit that I don’t understand especially not playing with a CF to play alongside Conway. Generally speaking strikers come in pairs.

 

If you look at the top of the championship, or the EPL you see? 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 and one CF.

You will see the same themes throughout football. 

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

So……in simple terms by going wide isn’t it more beneficial to have two strikers in the box? Surely that would increase the chances of scoring?

If the team is attempting to create numerical superiority wide in an attempt unbalance, overloading to isolate the opposition the answer is no. The chances of a scoring are increased by creating 1v1's and players joining in to create the overload.

Go 4-4-2 and the opponents sit in and don't shift because the overload is lost in midfield. 

If the intent is to go wide and cross its the reverse. 

40 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

Presumably, Max has trained with the ball at his feet from childhood  so do you think he should be able to improve not just his delivery of pass, but also his vision and therefore timing and selection of pass?

Seems a tall order, particularly the vision point, but im a spectator rather student of the game.

Yes 100% Max O'leary can improve.

Vision cannot be physically improved, unless we mean using visual aids.

We  improve football intelligence, and skills - interpreting what is happening in front of us, visual cues, relation to the game, spatial awareness ... And that's training. Training to expect the expected to and the minds creates memory based upon training, its patterns of play which increase intensity, sharpness, fluency .. 

Max O'leary will be working on his patterns of play, and in units etc. 

Improvement is linked to technical ability. We wont see startling driven passes in a millisecond effortlessly landing at the full back/wb's feet like Pickford. We wont see the ball being pinged accuracy over varying distances. 

O'leary is a solid capable keeper and his distribution is decent. If BCFC are to be this possession based team, playing out, if this a real change in direction   .. A core high level of ability to distribute is fundamental in goal. 

9 minutes ago, Chivs said:

I think you are mistaken to believe the tactic is to retain the ball.

Max passes to Pring (soon also McCrorie) with the intention of Pring clobbering the opposition fullback.

Working quite well so far....

Excellent. Could they be clobbered a bit further up the park?

18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Passing accuracy between players is far better the shorter the pass. Obviously the opposite applies. Few few players can ping an accurate pass 60yrds or more. Max trying a long diagonal is far more likely to go astray than if he simply rolls it to a teammate to build from the back.

However - if a wide player is available then an overarm is also less likely to go astray.

On a side note - I noticed against Watford that Vyners distribution was poor in comparison with other games.

There could be a sense in driving the ball off the pitch deep in the opponents half and moving the defence to the half way line and the midfield/forwards applying pressure to the throw. 

The area O'leary hits diagonally is not sixty metres away. O'leary is aiming at areas shorter. 

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

Under LJ and Frankie Fielding it was clear to everyone what the strategy was but so far I’ve not detected a particular side or strategy that Max plays to which is why I asked ‘is he under instructions?’

We’ve seen him roll it out to defender, welly it diagonally left or right and on rare occasions drop kick up the pitch. With ball in hand he’ll throws it overarm left or right depending on who is available. Attacks have developed from that kind of distribution.

Which way/how Max distributes the ball appears to be his choice.

Teams play in patterns. Bristol City do. This is rehearsed. Players deliberately take up positions. The diagonal balls are instruction.

The team is allegedly playing possession football. Max O'leary's passing accuracy is on the low side. The question remains why is the team pursuing a tactic that is challenging for the keeper to perform and so ineffective? 

11 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

So is the answer to simply throw the ball backwards more? If all we're interested in is increasing our possession then the obvious thing is to use throw ins as an opportunity to reset and recycle the ball back to the defence and goalie and go again.

I appreciate btw that the answer to that will likely be "depends on where the throw in is taken from".

Is it just that we say "any throw in in our own half should loom to be a simple one going backwards that allows us to regain possession 99% of the time".

Exclude areas adjacent to the eighteen yard box norms differ.

The answers to increase possession can really be yes, to throw the ball shorter, backwards and laterally more. These throws are more successful and efficient. 

In pro football short throw ins are taken less than medium and long throws, and the ball is thrown forwards more than backwards and laterally.

A team that throw the ball short and backwards frequently are some outfit called Man City. They frequently reset using the CB, pivot, keeper etc. Its a bit more involved than that due to the extreme width and depth moving away from the thrower to create space to throw, but Man City throw shorter (very) and backwards more to gain more (highest frequently measured) possession off their throws 

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Manning doesn’t overload a particular side for a start. 
Is Max instructed where to try and put the ball or is he allowed to put the ball where he thinks the the best option?

Different managers………

The keeper is instructed where to put the ball. He is not ignoring the rest of the pitch and going to the same area diagonally with some regularity, so this is a intent. This is a rehearsed option. 

Why? I don't know. Hence I cant answer my question.  

19 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Agreed, and I think we know from our eyes that it's not 35/38 throw-ins resulting in "possession".

Would you have an opinion on the second question? Is it worth trying to get significantly better at throw-ins?

I have an idea. There are differing measurements and from where. Generally forward throws result in lost possession. Teams can expect to lose the ball a lot. We can expect the opponents to reach the ball 54% of the time and that is clearances etc. The 46% is not securing possession its making a connection with the ball, and the second contact goes to the opposition as well who will have depth and numerical superiority. 

The generals alter with aptitude in the team. Improving range of throwers improves options and ball retention. If full backs etc have limited range and that can be - 20metres with accuracy, generally this can be improved. Throw ins are not developed, they tend to be neglected, altering the release point, run up, hand position with practice increases range, sometimes to high degrees. 

Is it worth? Depending on the intent of the team yes. If your team is possession based you want more of the ball. For the amount of possession City have throw ins are 5/6% of the possession.

Throwing the ball, backwards secures the ball 99% of the time, more possession. Lateral throws to feet again higher possession, City can improve hitting feet with regularity. Variety v down the line to a head again equals more possession .

There is the answer, more possession is good for BCFC.

8 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

This feels like the kind of thing that fans of every team would complain about. It feels like we are bad, but are we really in comparisons to everyone else?

@Davefevs how does 35/38 compare to the rest of the division? Do you have those stats or do we not know?

Also, how much advantage would we get from being a bit better? Ultimately, would it be worth the effort, thought, and training ground time to get a bit better at throw-ins...or ios that effort, thought and time better employed getting better at something else like movement in general, set-pieces, or passing patterns?

If 35/38 was securing possession that is remarkable. 

Just now, Robbored said:

You’ve answered your own question there Cowshed - plus a very different manager with very different ideals.

What are the differing ideas? I could understand what Mr Johnson was attempting. Liam Manning has been using a variant that I don't understand.

Could you explain why from the keeper, from dead balls and from open play City play a ball to a isolated wide receivers head, dramatically reducing the possibility of retaining possession?  

14 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I love that you think having a quality ball playing Keeper would automatically change an outfield players mindset, habits, concentration etc.

Yes. This is exactly what happens when you have confidence in your team mates ability and you know that they can carry out the team expectations adeptly. Players who cannot perform core tasks create doubt, uncertainty and tactical limitation. 

If City's identity is to be possession based the spine of the team will need to be comfortable in possession of the ball - That is a fundamental requirement.

3 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

The tactic of the goalkeeper going long and kicking it over the head of the full back / wing back didn’t start with Max. It goes way back. Frank Fielding did it regularly towards Joe Bryan and it was just as frustrating then!

 

Its different.

City would overload one side in an effort to win the second ball off Bryan winning the first. There was and is no effort to go over the full backs head as it is/was a diagonal ball into a wide receiver positioned before the half way line. 

Currently City are doing something similar, but with a very obvious difference. There is no overload around the diagonal ball so if City win the first contact, they are unlikely to win the second contact as numerically opponents getting compact out number City's players. 

Why, the difference? Dunno.

41 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

But the same has been said about a few of the outfield players.
IMO a lot of the possession game is nothing to do with the ball, the players out of possession hold the key. They move and give 2 options to the man on the ball it makes his job easier.  You stick Ederson in goal for us and I would be will to bet he doesn't look so cool all the time. Manning has his work cut out though out the squad.
Take Tanner as an example, he gets pelters for passing back , but Max is always on. Now take OLeary and when his lines are cut off he has no where to go but long and then the chance of success is reduced. Yes Ederson might find the 30-40 yard pass to a spare man, but thats usually because the other players have dragged the opposition around. Our out ball will usually be to a challenge . 
We would love a top quality keeper, but as I keep saying , we aren't going to buy one any time soon. Maybe after a spell of actually getting to grips with the style and being a (relative ) success then we will be in that position , but I would suggest there are other positional priorities for now.

The shapes and patterns the team play would alter because of his exceptional ability with the ball a his feet. He would spread confidence throughout the team because of his outlier capability. Ederson does not do might do, he does and regularly in excess of any other keeper in the world because of his range and symmetrical passing off multiple surfaces. 

Is Liam Manning adopting a style or an identity? If possession is part of the identity of the team not every keeper will be suited to a possession based team.

What possession based system is it that does not depend upon the high level efficiency of its keeper to distribute the football? Difficult to think of those that omit the keeper.

If possession based play is a priority, the keeper possessing the ability to distribute the ball has to be a key priority, its a major part of the principles. You cant just bung any keeper in to a system they don't have the skills for and hope it works. Possession football requires advanced foot skill in the no 1, the ability to dictate play. Its fundamental to attack and rest defence.

Just now, 1960maaan said:

TBF Manning has his work cut out getting the rest comfortable playing possession, which if he does, it will make Max's job easier as they will start to be available more often. 

I can't think of any teams comfortable in possession with average on the ball in goal. Manning will have his work cut out to achieve a team comfortable in possession without one. 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

For info.

Yesterday City had 38, 35 of which were successful (City first contact).  Of course that doesn’t help us to know what happened after the first contact…and I can’t be arsed to watch all 38.

Success should be securing possession. If possession is secured - Under control that's massive.

Statsbomb will do the watching for you.