Cowshed

12 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Not sure how tactics affect his ability to use his hands to fulfil what any reasonable observer would to be his primary objective of stopping the ball entering the net.

Keeper primary roles are based upon hands and feet. Coaching courses teach us two thirds of a keepers game is played with the feet. For a team attempting to play like Man Utd that 66% is increased. The signing of Onana was primarily to improve Man U ability to play  out, for Onana to join in and for a CB to join in to midfield forming a trendy box midfield and Man U to  play in 3-5-2, 3-4-3, 2-3-5 shapes etc in possession with the GK having a role in building possession.  

These tactics have proved problematic for two Keepers of International class. A reasonable observer could think the keeper playing as a auxiliary CB, and bounce passes being made wide into central midfield (Brighton like with differing verticality) are too complex for Man U's players and their keeper.   

19 minutes ago, Selred said:

I think it's important to have balance.

He had a very good game yesterday, but also was slow for the goal and basically stood still. 

He has also had some poor performances for us and conceded a few goals he should of easily saved.

One swallow doesn't make a summer. In my opinion he's still below average for Championship, but more performances like y'day my opinion will change. 

Mr Manning likes principles. 

Applying defensive principles like D for denying space, and D for dictate O'leary was not stood still, he was stood in entirely the wrong place in relation to where the ball was. When the ball, is that far from goal if he starts from the penalty spot he denies space to the opposition behind the CB's, and dictates what occurs in HIS box.

To concede a goal to a long pass travelling 35 metres plus landing on the penalty spot for an opponent to control it with their feet, without intervention of a CB's head, or the keepers gloves is kids and and Sunday league stuff. 

2 hours ago, DT The Optimist said:

Lot comments I often read and hear is that Max is not a championship standard keeper.

Do not know how the level is being set but I would rather have Max between the sticks than that clown Man Ure signed for 43 Million Andre Onana.

 Total showman and calamity slmost every game. what would Max be replaced by that would be an upgrade. 
Max is pretty solid, every keeper will make odd mistake 

I will have a pop at that one, Onana is not a clown, and neither was De Gea. Onana's abilty with his feet is high, very high, Onana is struggling with Man U's build up play and so did De Gea. It could be that its Man U's tactics, the complex build up play that is fundamentally problematic for Man Utd. 

28 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I think the same people criticising him for the goal would be even more vocal if he touched Bowen and given a pen and poss red card?. Some people need someone to blame every week, and Max gets way too much criticism imo. Yes he has his flaws, it's why he is playing in the Championship for us.

Not sure what some fans expect, some criticisms yesterday for not being on par with West Ham in the first half was ridiculous, especially the National League comments, lazy players etc.

Can't remember who said it but imagine how these same people would cope if we somehow managed to go up and come up against a better side/players pretty much every single week. Imagine those match threads....

Caught a long ball played from fifty metres away from goal and was met by a West Ham player twelve metres from goal. If Max O'leary's starting position was not extremely deep (in the six yard box) he catches, or punches that ball.

11 hours ago, bearded_red said:

Just a perfectly good goalkeeper for the level we play at, and much better value for money than the guy he replaced.

I remain really confused as to why this seems to be such a controversial view.

It can be dependant on what your consideration of perfectly good is.

For a team playing out through the thirds, playing a form of possession football, and using varying formations in possession O'Leary's passing accuracy is low. Its not Frankie Fielding low, but it is low, and this could inhibit the teams efficiency and tactical flexibility. 

17 hours ago, Markthehorn said:

Or certainly put under pressure to do so /feel they are . 

7 minutes ago, Markthehorn said:

Tbf Keith Hackett does seem to have a chip on his shoulder regarding current officiating or is trying to appease the fans !

Yes Mr Hackett has been critical of how VAR is being used. Where is the clear and obvious error for VAR to intervene?

The Everton player should be attempting to ruin an opponent there to receive a red. He is not. 

36 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

 

And in this case the ref took a second look and decided that he had made a mistake and that it was a red card offence. So therefore it meets the criteria. 

Here is an expert ex ref.

There was no clear and obvious error, and If there is no clear and obvious error the non existent clear and obvious error should not be reviewed. VAR is not there to micro referee decisions, that is not its role. 

14 hours ago, Lavington Robin said:

Interesting reply from Roy Hodgson and also Keith Hackett.
 

 

2 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Every time a player tackles their studs are in the air.  Perhaps they should outlaw tackling?

Everytime a player makes a tackle studs are not in the air, and tackling uses multiple surfaces. What refs consider are elements in the law like reckless, out of control etc. 

If this was a safety argument, most tackles carry risk to the opponent - Force is involved. Control measure = Bar all tackling? No, refs make the decisions based on their judgement of each tackles and challenges. This tackle in the opinion of the ref was not reckless etc, and that is where the decision should have stayed. There was no clear and obvious error, the ref made their subjective decision, one which reading the thread ex refs agreed with, and reading a refs forum current refs also agree with, VAR should not have been involved. 

2 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

But isn't this exactly what VAR is for? To be used when a ref makes an error?

VAR have obviously said to him "we think you have made an error here and recommend that you take another look" The ref has then had another look at it and then came to the conclusion that he has made an error. 

What needs to happen is that the conversations with the ref and VAR need to be broadcast and the ref should explain why he's changed his decision. I think we would then end up in a situation where there is much less outrage about decisions as people will have more context and understanding of decisions. 

The answer to your question is no. VAR is there to bring attention to clear and obvious error. 

50 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Usually I would agree yes, but its another thing making the call after City had already agreed to offer a scholarship to the player, if SGS wanted the partnership to improve it didn't help it.

I have ex players who are Bristol City scholars now. If another club is interested in a player at that age and the player has not signed, it should be a moral obligation to make the player and their parents aware of interested clubs. 

Signing as a scholar for differing clubs brings differing expectation, support and financial considerations e.g educational opportunity, private tuition, length of contract and wages, alongside playing expectation of playing time, role and intent of the club. 

My first boots beyond second hand boots were Power and were bought by my grandparents. I was quite emotional receiving them, £3 was a lot of money, and had to be coaxed into playing in them as I feared damaging them. 

19 hours ago, Lrrr said:

You're acting like SGS has always been generous towards City, Hockaday certainly did little to help City including inviting a friend of his who was head of academy at a Cat 1 side to come watch a player City had agreed to offer a deal to. SGS made a tidy sum off City for doing very little on the basis they couldn't really go anywhere else. 

It is quite right that David Hockaday invites clubs to watch SGS players, in the same manner that Ash Morgan invites clubs to see players at Merchants Academy, finding playing opportunities is part of the programme. These player pathway programmes to professional football are not the hegemony of BCFC. 

On 02/01/2024 at 07:48, RollsRoyce said:

He will be taking the credit for Semenyo next 

Brian Tinnion was involved in setting up a training partnership with SGS, and SGS ran a development team for City. SGS including Semenyo beat City U18's.

Being a partner of SGS has been of benefit to BCFC. 

44 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

1. Yes, yes I know you're not! Just a wee joke.

2. Thank you for your custom, it was much appreciated.

3. What a team that was!

PS. He is dull, though isn't he? And if the powers that be think there are 20,000 Bristolians interested in watching dull possession football, they've made a terrible mistake (another one!).

To my eyes, the current squad aren't playing as if things have been simplified for them either. Quite the reverse at times.

 

 

He is, but so have been some great Managers, and Manning has been here what feels like a fortnight to get interesting. If its his character sorry Liam your a bit monotone!

This squad is doing what you could expect. Its being formed and are ideas are being implemented. Players will fall away, not have have the aptitudes and some will maintain their level, and players will progress. I have made a parallel in the thread to time x great Coaches and top level talent and seasons to get players to levels. Manning didn't even have a pre season, the players may not be at his physical level and squad conditioning isn't done during a season, implementing new patterns of play when playing sat, tuesday, sat, Jon Lansdown and the bloke who used to be on X  will have to have recruited the messiah here. 

Modern coaching frequently does simplify football. Whats more simplified a modern coach playing with a model of play, recruiting and training to the model, or the modern weekly styles of Lee Johnson long balls short balls high pressing bees in the medium block club bags playing six seven eight formations a season, with an identity Mr Johnson stated he managed to lose/find/lose? That was complex football, allied to mumbo jumbo.

44 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I fear the Coach is going to need plenty of time and a complete refurb of midfield and attack to make any sort of progress. We have some good defenders and I can see how we've improved when we don't have the ball, especially the pressing bit (which was OK to start with anyway). But when we have the ball, there are games when we are hopeless. Sometimes we're OK but unbelievably wasteful (even when we win - see the Watford game). So overall, I see no significant improvement in our attacking game. I believe he needs time and new players (a lot) for that.   

 

Yes, you have identified an improvement in ten/eleven(?) games, no car crashes and a need for time. I don't fear, the FC made some crass statements. This is not the squad they state it is and the expectations of Jon Lansdown are a nonsense.

Improvement can be the team do have x amount of possession in the first third, the next improvement can be in the second third working from that safe possession zone (blah) of quite a lot of possession as opportunity, its linear back to front, and gradual improvement. 

Time on the training ground, few new players,  ... We are agreed. 

Thank you for the Bountyhunter, I thought it was superb, still do.

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Interestingly Man City can be the most direct team in the country at times. Ederson has been known to hit the odd 70 yard pass..................

Because of the almost absurd width and depth the team plays with can stretch the opposition to create weakness and if the opposition go man for man at goal kicks attempting to stop Man City playing out, a goal kick up the park cleared by the CB drops into a deliberate overload created in midfield by Man City to win it back.

When Bristol City had LJ evidently trying to go all Pep Frankie was shanking it into the Dolman.   

Just now, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

I believe that is also part of Max's job description 

Looking at your previous posts you didn't emphasise this role in a team that is attempting to emulate Man City's football.

3 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

No, I have chosen not to answer it because

 

 

I don't think you can, or you do not understand the differences.

You cant highlight clear differences between BCFC, Brighton or Man City.

Bristol City are not attempting to play Guardiola ball. Liam Mannings build up play at this point does not share real similarity. 

8 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

You can dress it up however you like but what it boils down to endless recycling of the ball, are you going to argue that point ..?

 

Man City are not endlessly recycling the ball.

The 3-4-2-1 see CBs pushing up uniquely high like FB's. Edersons joins in outside the box acting as a distributing CB. Its absurdly brave. Man City move the ball frequently in the second third to create numerical superiority to progress it, Stones, Walker, Foden step in forming box midfields and diamonds of 3v 2, 4v3 etc, play is switched to unbalance the opposition to isolate opponents v wide players like Doku and Grealish. Again brave, high and wide and frequently with players from the back leaving what would be considered traditional roles - Stones, Walker, Ake etc push on into midfield leaving one CB and the Keeper to distribute.  

It is positional football. 

What are static rigid BCFC doing in the first third, or the second? Is it unique, or brave, or even similar?  The answer is no. BCFC are not playing like Guardiola. From the Keeper to Haaland. 

18 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

I go back to my original post where my point is that copying possession based, constant recycling of the ball with no risks (like Man City do) i

 

 Bristol City don't play like Man City. 

15 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

p.s. Max's role is to keep the ball out of the net ..

 

57 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

And you've just validated my point. 

You have just validated a point.

Man City dis not recruit Ederson to solely keep the ball out of the net 90% and frequently a higher proportion of his role in games is to distribute the football to his team mates.    

Just now, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

And that is exactly the problem with modern football. Over complicated with mumbo jumbo to make it sound hard

Football however is a very simple game. The fundamentals are very basic constant movement and pass to a player in space, within the pattern if play that you chose (and practice in training)

I dread to think what (2 times European Cup winner) Brian Clough would have made of the upside down, inverted camshaft formation. Now that truly us a load of bollox...

 

 

You have been asked a simple question based upon your own assertion. You still have not been able to answer it.

What are BCFC's build up patterns if they are trying to emulate Man City? Why are BCFC not actually attempting to play like Zerbi's Brighton? Or Ash Morgans Keynsham Town?

All play variants of possession football. 

10 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Thanks, Liam!

PS. You, and your football, are dull as. Any chance of some fun? 

Happy New Year.  

I am not a Liam, or the boss of BCFC.

My favourite City team was Leaning, Bailey, Llewelyn Humphries, Rennie,  Newman, Shelton, Smith, Gavin, Taylor and Carnage as your Bountyhunter put it... But the point I was making as a point, and you avoided was about how modern coaches can simplify football.

Our great but not so modern Sir Joe Jordan went plan A and not much else.

1 minute ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

Simple.

You could not highlighted even ONE pattern of build up from the Keeper . 

What is O'learys role in the 3-4-2 -1 Bristol City DON'T play?

11 minutes ago, Scrumpys Dietary Advisor.. said:

And you've just validated my point. We don't have any of these so why try to play like we do ..?

If I have validated your point, starting from O'leary could you highlight the similarities between Bristol City's and Man City's build up play? 

If in the first third BCFC are not playing with the same principles the team cannot be playing Guardiola ball.

2 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said:

53 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said:

I just don’t get why people try to emulate Pep’s style, at all.

Valdes, Neur, Ederson ...O'leary.

From the Keeper out Bristol City and Liam Manning are not trying to emulate Guardiola's possession and positional football. Max O'leary as a good pro as he does not have the aptitude for it. And we can continue throughout BCFC XI and squad in the same manner.

Liam Manning is NOT trying to emulate Pepe Guardiola's football.

Pep Guardiloa does not have a style, styles change, Guardiola's possessional positional based football, changes little. Doku's inclusion this season has not changed the teams principles, the team still build through thirds and plays positionally.   

12 minutes ago, RedRock said:

A ‘simple game’, very much a Brian Clough-type view. One of the most successful managers in the history of the game.

The modern game does, and the FA coaching badge-types certainly do have a tendency to over- complicate the game 

 

How have Brighton or a Man City over complicated football? 

Brighton play in non complex pre trained patterns to simplify their game.

Man City concentrate on elements of the game using principles to govern the variables = Simplifying a game that is complex and chaotic.

12 minutes ago, Wade Wilson said:

I just don’t get why people try to emulate Pep’s style, at all. For starters,

Max O 'leary distributes sweeps and joins in like Ederson. 

Our CB's step into midfield and play as easily as John Stones forming a box midfield.

Our wing backs invert and play the full length of the pitch.

Our pivots distribute the ball as effortlessly as Busquets or Rodri.

Our Fodens and Dokus and Grealishes drive to release.

Our Iniestas and Xavis play in the half spaces.

Our Messi plays the false nine.

Maybe people who think teams are trying to emulate Peps style are talking bollocks.