Cowshed

On 06/10/2023 at 10:21, phantom said:

Cause of - or the solution to?

Its only opinion, but Beckhams started on the flank and moved across as England were being outnumbered in midfield. The cause if you wish was England's 4-4-2 and Scholes and in particular Gerrard having an ineffectual game in the centre of the park, Gerrard pursued his customary pushed up role leaving England playing in effect one central midfielder in Scholes who got booked early, till Beckham altered his position. 

In the second half England went 4-3-3 with width, which in reality was 4-2-4 with Beckham occupying centre midfield roles. 

13 minutes ago, phantom said:

Exactly this, people only really remember his amazing last ditch free kick and him running around a lot

Many glaze over the fact that his total lack of positional discipline that day created numerous problems for us 

Many might also want to consider England's 4-4-2 was starved of possession as Gerrard and Scholes were dire and overloaded, Scholes got booked leading to England's ball winning capability being? Beckham moved across the midfield because England got overloaded and outplayed.

8 hours ago, Super said:

Giggs in his prime certainly was.

Beckham's prime (3yr) ratio of goals and assists at Man Utd was higher than Giggs prime. Beckhams figure of 0.74 is higher than Kevin De Bruyne. 

20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Nah, just make it a manager-only review.

You’ll soon see managers made to look stupid for bad review choices…and they’ll start telling their players to be sure before they claim stuff.  No more “I didn’t see it”.  It’s a bit like Stokes not trusting Broad on an lbw, he knows Broad is always confident and often proved wrong.

In the event of a linesman incorrectly flagging for offside (and ref blowing for offside) and manager reviews correctly, then give a free-kick in the position the receiving player next touched it.  If that’s in the box, then free-kick on the edge of box in line with where they received it.  I don’t like the idea of “playing-on” because it could lead to injury, e.g. keeper decapitates striker through 1 on 1.

Which isn't occurring at other levels. 

Why? To make the game more attractive for tv, not to improve the game. 

From Danish delight to Robins rejection: The making of Bristol City talent Ephraim Yeboah - Bristol Live (bristolpost.co.uk)

Patrick and the coaches at BIC did a brilliant job at BIC. Patrick has provided a very positive picture there of what is now a great young man.

I met Ephraim when he didn't speak English, my Son played in the same teams, I coached some of those players. 

For the forum Ephraim is Ephraim, he is known as Ephraim very very wildly across Bristol youth football instantly as Ephraim because of his stand out bravery, courage and intense tenacity his football displayed while playing up and down multiple age groups. Nobody called him Yeboah, he is Ephraim.  

18 minutes ago, Mr X said:

There's been a few times where ballboys have made a difference to a game with a bit of quick thinking in getting the ball to a player so they should be told not to sit there and day-dream for 90 minutes!     

The ball boys are very frequently players from City foundation sides. They do receive instruction as to how the team want the ball returned, or not.  

On 11/09/2023 at 10:30, Silvio Dante said:

I think it really depends on the ethos. One thing I really don’t like is when teams at AYL (and even HML!) try and poach players from other teams - we’re all part time coaches and I think “coaching not poaching” is how you prove your ability and build a more enduring team.

However I do think that it’s totally appropriate for teams to attempt to play at as high a level as possible based on their ability, and try and win that league.

Generally the ethos I have is that the players I have will (all things being well) be with me for 10 years by the time we finish. As a coach, you’re probably the most stable influence on those boys outside of their parents as they grow up. That’s a hell of a lot of responsibility so I see the first job as pastoral and to grow them as people, and grow their personal qualities and teamwork. However, there is a balance. They want to win games, so it doesn’t become equal playing time and the better players don’t miss time that much.

I totally agree that being honest is key. I’ve said to parents where their child sits as I can’t guarantee every player games (and in some cases in certain games playing them will ruin their confidence and that helps nobody). I don’t necessarily see at AYL the mission is to produce adult footballers - I think they’ll progress that way through love of the game and we aren’t talking kids who’ll become pros at U16 AYL 1/2.

Bottom line for me is develop them as people first and foremost. But absolutely try and win every game, and compete at a level where you are testing yourself and play at the maximum of your ability and effort every week.

A fine post Sir. 

Ethos will alter across levels, the aspirations have too.

AY teams at the higher levels include sides that are feeder teams. Their existence is part to provide players for their parent club. A mission is to produce players for adults football. One recent winner of the U16 AYL 1 had five players go on to be pro club scholars and players go to Western league XI's and Southern league clubs. To not have players going on from these sides to higher levels in adult teams would be failure. 

I have managed and coached teams across all AYL divisions from colts in division five to teams in division one. In AYL five the quest was to win one game, have fun doing it and progress from there. In AYL one the quest was entirely different with players looking to win every week, win trophies and looking to continue playing post U16, the intent of the team, its Manager, coaches reflected those desires honestly and realistically - We are looking to win trophies and we can and do help develop players for higher levels in a serious football environment.

One size doesn't fit all. There we need to be very honest with players and parents. 

On 11/09/2023 at 14:33, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

My son’s team comfortably beat Bristol Rovers Supporters Club in the Avon Yourh League yesterday.  A conversation with one of their supporters revealed that he was a City fan, as were several of the players…

Their keeper punched the ball clear while a yard outside the area and only got a  yellow card.  Ah, Sunday referees…

Your Sons teams comfortable beat Bristol Rovers supporters club but you still wanted the supporters club keeper sent off? Tough.   

9 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Whilst I don't think we should limit ourselves, my strong preference would be for an English coach. 

I don't think Pep, with his wildly complicated training methods and tactics and general obsessiveness over every detail, would be well-suited to managing internationally, where time on the training ground is so limited. 

International management requires a different approach and skillset to club management, and I actually think England have stumbled on someone in Southgate who is actually very well suited to that role. 

Lee Johnson was wildly complicated.

Guardiola training methods establishing a model of play simplify the training and football. 

Gareth Southgate uses aspects of Guardiola's football. 

20 hours ago, redysteadygo said:

Oh so different from my schoolboy years playing football from the late 1950s. Played in the school junior and senior teams on a Saturday morning then in the afternoon the Federation of Boys Clubs League that started at under 14 level, although we were all 12 year old, then progressed to under 16s at 14 years old. Only adult present was either a school master or Boys Club leaders who normally refereed the games. Whilst the school masters were usually sports teachers some of the Club leaders didn't have a clue of the laws of the game. We made are own way to games travelling all over Bristol on the bus or on our bikes. We had great fun and made lifelong friends. I appreciate that there are many adults who give up tremendous amounts of their time in many capacities to enable the youngster leagues to function these days.  However, a lot teams appear to exist to just win and that puts pressure on the youngsters to perform at the expense, at times, to the detriment of enjoyment. As with most things these days it's all so different to us oldies.

 

Some teams mission is to win leagues and produce players for adults football. Expectation differs at differing levels. Managers and coaches should be honest about what their intent and expectations are. 

Should a AYL division one team at u16 not strive to win their league if that is realistic and that is their intent? 

17 minutes ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I love my boys under 8's side they have a good mix of boys and girls, and they are getting better.  My boy had a decent stint in goal, and a good stint in defence and scored in a loss. 

It's super friendly level, but have to agree dog shit on the pitches is yuk. Some parents are also a bit awful but mostly it's a nice level. 

Very weird playing rules 4x10 mins not sure I know all of the differences I swear we don't have offsides at our level.

Till the players are U11 and playing nine a side there is no offside. 

39 minutes ago, SBB said:

The final season for me. From U7’s to U16’s, it’s been stressful and infuriating at times but so rewarding 
 

I have done that and have gone onto twenty years of Manging and coaching.

40 minutes ago, SBB said:

 and I wouldn’t change a thing. 
 

You will if you start at U7's again and you will be better second time around for all those experiences.  

42 minutes ago, SBB said:

 I may even take a new batch of U7’s on and start the journey again. 

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

What are the defining elements of the "Casuals" culture that's being discussed here? What are the ideas, beliefs, arts, language, traditions, or other defining elements that mark out this "culture" (presumably it's truly a sub-culture of a sub-culture in reality) from broader society?

Genuine question, I'm not knowledgeable about this, and don't know the answer, and I'm not trying to judge anyone for anything at all.

For my young self the defining elements were camaraderie and fashion. 

4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

If you read John Lydon's autobiographies, it's clear there was a massive overlap between blokes who knew who attended north London/Essex discos in the mid-70s and wore expensive - back then usually pastel-shaded - clothes, and guys who got involved in bother at football*. These "soul-boys" were often known as casuals at the time, due to the "smart casual" attire they wore out for the night, as opposed to bell-bottom jeans/t-shirt uniform of most club-goers back then. 

Seems to me this is where the term 'casual' first came from, and why it tended to get attached to a football sub-culture. It was, at the start, just a fashion thing.

 

* John "Rambo" Stevens who provided Sex Pistols security was one. Never really liked punk music, a well-known 'face' on Highbury's North Bank. 

I should have made that reference. That is where the term Casual comes from and it became the umbrella term for a culture and groups within it. 

23 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Author Irvine Welsh, of Trainspotting fame, claimed Hibs fans used the term casuals ('cashees') first. He was involved in the scene in the 80s. 

Organised football violence was certainly a thing in Glasgow and Edinburgh before it was in England, because of the sectarian element. Gangs associated with Rangers or Celtic emerged in the Peaky Blinders 20s era. Obviously, the term casual and the fashion obsession wasn't part of it then.

In a sense, "football hooliganism" was invented in Scotland, made a mass culture in England, refined and rebranded in Italy and Holland, and now still lives on as a mass phenomenon in Eastern Europe and Latin America.  Its continued existence here is rather niche. 

Mr Welsh fine writer that he is would be using a Tardis to write about Hibs Casuals, who became Casual several years after the Casual scene was established in England.

I was travelling to London (Lillywhites often) on the basis of Face articles with friends who where buying ludicrously expensive Casual trainers they did not know how to pronounce. Its NI-KEE not NICKY". That is DEE - A - DORA ..".

It was not about violence, we just wanted to look good, and be a part of something. As a City lad pointed out in the Face the opposite sex did think a lad in brand new crisp Fila gear was more cool and  handsome than a bloke in fag burned Levi denim jacket and DM's with a dirty scarf. 

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

And it's also worth pointing out that the flag has smack bang in the middle, the image of an ' Ultra/ Casual' wearing the Millie Miglia Google jacket first worn by Italian Ultras. 

Quote..

The ‘Millie Miglia’ jacket was produced in a variety of fabrics, including anti-rip, leather, the experimental dynafil and a water, smog and oil resistant fabric. The indestructible qualities of the jacket didn’t take long to be noticed by football hooligans across Europe. With the hood pulled up and the goggles folded down, and a scarf draped across the mouth the lower face was almost hidden and allowed the wearer to go undetected. When Massimo Osti found out hooligans were using his expensive race car driving jackets to hide their identities when commiting acts of violence, he apparently laughed and remarked “If the hooligans are buying my jackets it means they have good taste!”

Nicknamed the ‘Millie Miglia’ after the vintage car race it once sponsored, the iconic CP Company goggle jacket has been produced continuously in endless variations since 1988 and has come to be loved by fashion designers and conversely by those with a propensity for violence over the years.

 

It is worth pointing out that the Millie has been a heritage jacket for decades for English Casuals. The influence there is Massimo Osti (rip), his clothes be that Arctic Navy, Bonneville, CP, Left hand, Stone Island and his last MA.Strum label were and are an enduring influence of Casual culture here. 

Osti designed clothes English Casuals loved. Osti used military themes in design and fabrics used by astronauts.  

12 minutes ago, winsaw said:

I would say remember back to before the EE was reopened giving all the singers somewhere to go together for the first time in years it didn't work back then having singes sprinkled around the ground was was near impossible to get anything going, hence why they was such a call to reopen the east end and keep that going with section 82, your idea of closing down section 82 would just not work, 

 

 

Fans campaigned in 2006/07 to reopen part of the East End for like minded fans. A very different thing to the singing section. 

48 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

So, they'll say. I think adidas  - in the very early 70s, not widely available in provincial Britain - was their favoured look in the early days. Man Ut fans claim to be the first casuals, and back then they adopted Fred Perry as a look.

Talk to Rangers/Celtic/Hibs/Hearts fans they'll claim that the term 'casual' was coined up there.

One thing's for sure, as you say, the culture originated in the UK and was exported. 

For a period Celtic fans were hostile, sometimes violent towards Casuals as they were seen as a English phenom. 

Aberdeen (ASC -Aberdeen Soccer Casuals) and Hibs were the Scottish first clubs with Casual support. Hibs fans claim they copied the look from Casuals down South.

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

If we are going to be pedantic about it ...I didn't say they were Ultras...I said there are influences by the Ultra culture from abroad. 

In a thread that is chucking Ultra and neo Fascist about its fair to point out those lads are wearing Casual clobber. Their flag also displays the Angry Robin. An emblem created by City lads and associated with City lad culture not that of foreign Ultras.

Just now, Leveller said:

Thank you for explaining my point more clearly than I did. I’m not suggesting these kids are fascists (which I said before) nor do I know if they are actual fighters. However, they are consciously associating themselves with a fighting culture (surely this is hard to deny) and also with Bristol City. I find that unpleasant. I’m aware that some on here disagree and are far more accepting of a certain level of violence.

They could look like tramps and associate with fascists like some of the Gas did. Better?

22 minutes ago, spudski said:

I know who copied who...however the 'Ultra' culture from abroad is influencing British football culture. 

 

Those lads are not Ultras. They are football lads, Casuals, dressers in the North.  

19 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's interesting that before the current CP Company and Stone Island (both Italian) brands worn by so-called casuals, they adopted other Italian makes, such as Emporio Armani, Fila, Ellesse and Fiorucci. 

The term casual, in the football context (before then it was mainly applied to lads who wore pastel colour clothes, slip-ons and listened jazz funk in Essex discos), first got coined in Scotland. However, "hooligans" in places like the north of England had already started to wear at-the-time expensive branded clothes like Adidas and Fred Perry. 

Liverpool. That is the club and origin of Casual. Liverpool fans adopted (??) clothes from European Cities fans shopped in on their travels to European cup games, creating a culture. The rest including Bristol City fans followed. There were regional nuances but Casual started with Liverpool. 

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Cmon Philly... whilst you're correct people shouldn't judge others on what they wear, the context here is totally different. 

The ' look' they've gone for, especially with faces covered so not to be recognised ( there's a reason for that, and it's not because they are covered in acne) is to associate themselves with a football culture that's related to enjoying a bit of a ruck. 

It distinguishes them away from the ' normal ' fan and ' shirters'. 

' Getting the badge in'...kid on right...it all points to a culture. 

It's been the same as others have implied over the years. A culture that wore certain clothing at football matches to distinguish themselves. 

And their were some proper clown looks during the 70s as has been mentioned. 

Whilst this imo isn't about a fascist thing...it's definitely a look and trend being copied from the ' Ultras' abroad. 

A bunch of kids following a football trend, that so many have done in the past, that will eventually grow up and see how silly it all is...' but was fun at the time'. 

So many have been there before and voice experience. 

 

The clothes in that picture are K Way (French), CP/Stone Island (Italian) but Casual is originally a English and British culture. European football fans copied Britain. 

Its an interesting watch as it highlights how much of football is mindset. A mindset most of us do not possess. The players most of whom are technically adept display the psychological flaws most of us do in our lives.

2 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

England Men and Women are already paid equally for Internationals

Match fee.

England men and women receive very different payment for playing/being part of squads. 

1 hour ago, Erithacus said:

The day o'ercast.

What would have been the perfect end to a fabulous tournament turned out to be a disappointment on several fronts. I suspect there will be a large amount of examination of Weigman's starting line-up and formations. The first half did not really provide a source of encouragement, with the Spanish playing a typically Spanish brand of suffocating midfield press. We had little momentum to get forward and use our best weapons. Clearly Vilda had worked thoroughly on keeping pressure on and usually had a player extra in the midfield battles. We didn't really find enough space and time, which should have something we should have reacted to sooner. The first half was the more important in hindsight, bringing with it the only goal on 29 minutes.

Weigman made the uncharacteristicly brave move to change the formation by taking off two forward-thinking players at half time and left a bit of a gap in the middle. The pre-tournament worries about the lack of goal scoring resurfaced at the wrong game. It didn't help that quite a few England players were not on their best form: Hemp was stifled, Russo often outnumbered and isolated from linking up, but Bronze had a bit of a stinker. It was her foray into the thickest part of the Spanish midfield that led to the decisive goal. Spain have too much ability: they realised her mistake and picked the ball out to an unguarded flank. A sublime finish and the only place Earps could not reach.

But for my money the real problem over formation was about the role Elle Toone had. She did a lot of support work and defending in the number ten spot but it was not the channel we had any success going forwards with. Supply was the real thorn.

It won't be obvious here but the Spanish have achieved an amazing triumph; their path to glory was beset with acrimony at all levels, mutinous accusations and a bitter camp. They had a rocky start and initially were not the side they became, but have won despite - not because of - the national set-up. Just like the men's team, it has taken a long time for the dazzling club talent to translate into international trophies. Their younger sides are also growing and the future looks really rosy for the Riojas.

 

So where now? Wiegman has to chew on a second World Cup Final defeat and the calls for her to replace Southgate will dwindle quickly. Now we will have to get back home, review where things went well and where they fell short. It will not be long before England will be back on the trail and memories will have to be selective in places. I feel one or two Lionesses will decide to call it a day; hopefully we will have new blood waiting for their chance.

And where now back home? City will have earned a right to play at the top table and look forwards to seeing the Lionesses stars at Ashton Gate. Back to the bread and butter.
 

 

That counter has been on all tournament and before it. England split in possession, high and wide. Bronze plays very high at the instruction of her coach. There should be coverage (reserve principle) behind her as she pushes up or steps in, with two sitting there really should have been. Bronze was looking for an option, driving to release. Its an achilles heel where England are turning the ball over a lot, while playing a form of possession football and end up in a poor shape to defend quickly. Too much and eventually a team exploited it.

Second half a move to four provided more stability to build and defend from. 

52 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

That corner at the start of injury time where they took 50 seconds, including changing the taker twice, and she just let them do it.

That is a deliberate attempt to delay play = Bookable. There were two occasions Spain players deliberately kicked the ball away = Mandatory yellow and one of these players had already been booked, the refs gone for her card in her pocket realised she already booked a player and changed her mind. That was poor refereeing, and England's player should have got around the ref on that. Mandatory is mandatory and Spain should have been playing with ten.

1 minute ago, Silvio Dante said:

At National team level, yes, absolutely. Interestingly the USA teams pooled their monies from the respective men’s and women’s world cups and then divided equally.

At club level, absolutely not at present. Taking City as an example, the men’s team at the second tier regularly get c20,000 and the associated income that comes with that. I’d venture that the women - at a higher level - will average c4000 so best case, it’s 1/5 of attendees - at a markedly lower price. From an income generation point of view, equal pay makes no sense.

To be clear, if a male and female both work stacking shelves in a supermarket, both work as a CEO or anything where the income generation is not different depending on whether it’s a man or a woman, then absolutely equal pay should be in. 
 

If the monies generated by the women’s game start increasing markedly it’s a conversation worth revisiting. But give it chance to build the sport first

The USA women's squad is paid more than the males. They receive benefits that males cannot. USA women are contracted to International football as employees and receive money for paid vacations, meal breaks (really), health insurance/social security, injury pay, severance pay and on this goes. 

The males do not receive the above because the men's club game is entirely different.

USA's women could also play football for months. USA international men generally play in leagues which are far longer,