Cowshed

16 minutes ago, Sir Geoff said:

So that has to be down to the manager and his tactics, whichever standard of football you play at.

Yes.

England generally find answers to the challenges virtually all opposition set them. England play in their defined methodical way established over a significant period of time and tournaments, qualifiers etc frequently needing to take time and patience in possession to overcome opponents. That is a team with world stars.

Now Bristol City. Liam Manning doesn't have world stars. He also appears to be expected to find solutions in a extraordinary short period of time with minimal training time. Guardiola's and Klopp's had pre season and a season to not get their sides playing the football they wanted with squads of exceptional talent. Guardiolas and Klopp's teams were not instant.

5 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

Full back to CB to full back and back to CB to full back reminds me of Southgate and England not Man City!!

U passing.

England frequently struggle to break down teams that sit in and get compact conceding space only to the side or in front of a screening block, and the ball has to move in a U shaped pattern across the CB's to WB's. 

That is from a England team that plays with world stars in its midfield. 

Bristol City have? 

21 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Simples. Front-foot, attacking football is what we were promised and Manning wants to deliver that via a ‘Pep’ style of play.

If I have to watch 2 sideways passes at the back before we trigger a rapid transition through the lines to create a chance, then I’ll tolerate the sideways passes. 

If I have to watch sideways  ‘crab’ football with no end product, because no one off the ball moves, we have an inability to spot the free man, or just can’t execute an accurate, fast forward pass …. then bin that style of play. 

What we know from Manning’s first block of games is we don’t have the squad that can implement - at least consistently - his ‘Pep’ style of play. 

Nige was pragmatic - with our players and budget we couldn’t afford the type of player who can operate that ‘Pep’ style effectively, indeed, few can. He built a side of limited ability Championship players based on togetherness and hard work. 

We either invest in this window to get the quality ‘Pep’ style players or we build a team and playing style based on our players limited strengths. 

The choice is Jon and Tins in this window. 

 

Front foot football is a meaningless description. Pep Guardiloa's teams sit on the opposition with possession, playing positionally dominating territory in numerical overloading units looking to switch and reset utilising width and depth. As the team plays in patterns using numerical overloads when the ball is lost this provides opportunity to counter press in numbers aggressively further up the pitch. The team dominates in and out of possession.

Is that front, or back foot football?    

Whats is this Manning Pep style of football? Pepe Guardiola doesn't have a style of football his team has an identity, clear playing principles, sub principles and a model of play. 

If Liam Manning  can take over a team mid season install an identity, principles of play and a new playing model around the team playing twice a week, and three times a week with limited training time (no pre season), and with a squad of limited ability in two months he will be a coach surpassing Guardiola's standard!

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Correct that's its Villa, except they didn't win from a base of possession. They in fact had 46% of possession, against Man City, and regularly played on the break down the wings when Man City went to play inverted on the transition.

Man City had two shots on target. Despite having more of a ball - as Villa were more organised on closing quickly in their half man to man and turned them over, with pace.

Not saying, again, that you can't win with possession - but all it takes is one error with the ball and you can concede. At this level it's easier to force that single error than thread a perfect 30 yard through ball. You can worry about the former when you get to the Prem like Brighton and Bournemouth have done. As NP said, at this level it's fine margins working with what you have.

Villa do play from a base of possession. The are consistently playing through the first two thirds of the pitch playing short to feet. A principle of Villas football is attempting to penetrate quickly in the final third from that base. This is possession football 

8 hours ago, Fuber said:

That's not exactly outside the norm for any team playing Seffiled United this season - but again also Villa have higher quality players and could break them down.

 Villa average midtable in every metric for touches. https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/possession/Premier-League-Stats - SHU bottom for possession with an average of 36%.

Possession is only slightly above division average. Explained by an equally slightly above average number of successful (%) take-ons.

As a comparison - West Ham in 6th average 41%.

When Villa are playing for a goal however - they tend to wing-play.  6th most crosses in the League. Added to which themselves and Wsst Ham are 4th and 2nd in the league for goals direct from counters.

To clarify, I'm not suggesting possession isn't useful, it is, especially at killing off games or tiring the opposition - but it depends on personnel and how its being used.

As an example- see if you can guess which two teams in the PLs match the image is from.

Vila, play through the thirds, from a base of possession. 

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

There are teams that don't play possession based and do well. Villa,

Villa frequently will play a short passing possession game. They approached nearly 700 passes v Sheffield Utd. 

13 hours ago, Open End Numb Legs said:

If you are playing a fast moving sport like football that benefits from good peripheral vision then surely playing in a bright kit must be a benefit. Not a huge benefit maybe but in this age of small margins, worth taking.

Watching Arsenal in their bright yellow kit it is so easy to see the passing options.

Black in a night game? Can't be great.

In regards to football there are numerous colour that could provide marginal gain. The colour black indicates strength, and this in theory could make an individual feel marginally stronger. Stripes horizontally make individuals larger rather than vertical stripes. Black horizontal stripes are eye catching hence why the colour black is used in underlining. Red and black is particularly eye catching, red top newspapers originally used their red tops to catch the eye. Black is an excellent choice for catching peripheral vision, and remaining rememberable . 

Watching Arsenal in a kit of flecks, and logos can make their yellow less eye catching, and it has. 

The purpose of much of what goes on a kit does not aid vision, that is not its purpose, what is being done for kits are no more than marketing gimmicks. 

49 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The handball law can be interpreted differently by referees and of course VaR. 

For example - the ball hits the upper arm close to the shoulder. Some referees give a penalty often confirmed by VaR and some don’t award a penalty which is also confirmed by VaR - it’s ambiguous.

There was a PL match recently involving Liverpool where the ball hit the defenders lower arm as he was falling in the box - no penalty given confirmed by VaR.

It certainly makes fans wonder if the VaR officials know the laws - to everyone else it was a stonewall penalty but not to the ref or VaR…………..

It’s no surprise that managers like Dyche make comments about not knowing the laws.

Check laws on where the ball hits the arm and on natural position. Its in the laws.

I thinks its amazing that a man who is in charge of a team worth hundreds of millions, has a supportive network of coaches and analysts to support his football, and training that includes defending and where players position their arms doesn't know whats in law 12.

35 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Blimey. Even I know that one!!

There is the qualified expert for you. And a panel of these ex Manager ex player experts has been formed to cast judgement on refereeing standards. The stats they create? Suspect.  

On 24/12/2023 at 11:50, Robbored said:

I completely understand all of that Cowshed - used to see young boys under 9s behaving in the same way as professional players who’d then seen on tv - it was the parents that were the problem!

A pal an I ran a boys team from 8 thru to 15 some years ago.

There are serious problems being caused by players, spectators and parents. Mirroring behaviour they see at the the games peak. It is a known and logical consequence. The FA not the PGMOL should be far harder on Managers undermining referees, encouraging abuse of refs and damaging the game.

On 24/12/2023 at 11:54, Red-Robbo said:

Presumably this "85% correct" stat includes decisions like turning up at the right ground and remembering to pack his kit etc etc...

No. That may be a joke but as many decisions like corners, goal kicks and throw in's are not subjective and clear refs will get an overwhelming number of decisions correct.

Yesterday saw Sean Dyche stating publicly he doesn't know the laws of the game , a decision was bizarre, he didn't think the handball was deliberate. Sean Dyche a Manager, an ex player, does not know a significant law of the game, handball does not need to be deliberate. Do the experts on the key match incident panel also have as much knowledge of the laws of the game to come to their 15% of decisions are wrong? 

22 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Always found it odd that the route to top flight reffing is such a long one.

 

It is not odd. The route to from seven to four is a couple of years of displaying competency and earning the award to ref at higher levels. The top refs ARE the best of the best, they have displayed this over years and improved their skills to gain increments at 2a/2b. At level three refs get £50 a game, then at three levels higher a PGMOL ref can be paid 150k a season depending on performance. 

22 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

Appreciate there are fitness standards they need to meet, but usually it's some bloke in their early 40s chasing after a load of highly tuned 20-somethings in the peak of their fitness.

Which cannot be helpful.

Top level refs are very fit. The PGMOL standard box to box(it mirrors the game) interval test will not be competed without a high level of fitness. If a ref cannot complete the test, they cannot ref at the top level. 

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

To reach the elite PL level in 13 years is fast tracking. She took up refereeing in 2010 becoming full time in 2019.
 

The individual started refffing prior to 2010. Taking fifteen years plus to ref in the EPL is not unusual, and well fifteen year is not fast. 

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

I could only find a record of actual appearances for Chippenham Town.

He played for England schoolboys so it looks like he moved around as a youth prospect but didn't make the league grade, hence going into refereeing to keep up his participation in football.

He played for Bath City under Paul Bodin, he is from Melksham and related to Fitzroy Simpson who did play a few games for City. 

45 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Fast tracked just as Rebecca Welch was

 

Rebecca Welches fast tracking has taken fifteen years. She was also an elite EUFA women's referee

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

Depends on the team, CS. You'll have seen multiple occasions of 8-12 City passes - mostly sideways or backwards - during the period of play between Hull's penalty and the substitutions on Friday, yet that final creativity wasn't there and we inevitably eventually stuffed one up and lost the ball, often in our own half. 

I'm all for keeping possession, but if you have no attacking intent and you are just stroking the ball around for the sake of it, that'll bite you on the arse.

I coach so I don't see City as much as most here. The little I see so far is a team attempting to play positionally. Teams will stuff one up, its part of the process, it has to be expected, and this would also be considered about what occurs when error happens when going direct quickly, people frequently don't look at those errors in the same manner. 

Depends on the team - There are lots of variables. A Charles Hughes once put forward arguments v possession football. Yes a high number of goals are scored from less than 3 passes and counters. Using his methodology that was called the Winning formula Wimbledon were right Brazil and the Netherlands and Spain and Germany would be wrong.

Your use of intent there. All passes have sake, some sake/point than others. Liverpool 79 - 85 dominated football with sideways, lots of backwards to kill games, quieten crowds and that was the intent in much of keeping the ball, resting in and defending in possession, turned out all right! Whats in the opening post, isn't warped, or frequently new at all 

13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

It's clear that breakaway attacks will always yield more goals than the slow, steady build-ups, because the former catch defenders out-of-position and up-field.

It really is not Robbo. Transition does not yield more goals than possession football. A team that can keep the ball for more than eight passes and play positionally is as likely to score as a team transitioning in a counter attack. 

Barcelona at their peak did both. Slow methodical build up meant that the team could keep numerous players around the ball to counter press when they lost possession and they would have numerical superiority and opposition out of shape.

17 hours ago, Robbored said:

Managers pointing out that referee decisions cost them game is hardly abuse whereas using any profanity aimed the officials definitely is - nobody would condone that.

We’ve all seen managers post match fuming with frustration with the officials having lost the game but they have no freedom to express what they’re feeling which generally speaking is the same as the fans.

Then……..days later they receive a meaningless letter of apology from the PGMOL - I’m sure they’d rather have 1 or 3 points enclosed in the envelope.

Surely  officials costing a club points is tantamount to bringing the game into disrepute?

 

Nigel Pearson insulted a ref. That is what his fine was for. The very best do this the Klopps and Guardiola's. Arteta insults and overtly criticises refs monthly. I know you know what definitions of abuse are, overt criticism and insulting an individual is abuse. 

The answer to your questions are in the FA' s rule E.

Yes we all see Managers, making excuses for their own failings, projecting their failure onto others, creating victim narratives, demonstrating their lack of control. Managers have freedoms, they do not have the freedom to abuse referees. they can still express themselves within the rules for the leagues their team play within.

In your post you said seeing Managers losing it was entertaining (Yes it sort of is ), but what are the consequences for the game? There is a connection between behaviours seen at the game zenith demonstrated by highly paid and well protected Managers, and the abuse and assault of referees throughout the game, what we see is mirrored and more through football.    

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Couple of interesting points here about the perceived importance of possession.  From a City perspective, it was/is one of my initial concerns about LM, and looked to be the way we were going in the early games. I think the Blackburn second half may have been a rubicon moment there and we are now ceding more possession/not keeping possession for possession sake, and are more playing to the strengths of the personnel we have with tweaks from NP - evolution not revolution.

Both the tweet and the wider Observer article worth reading. Particularly the last line “Data has taken us through the looking glass where nothing is quite what it seems”

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2023/dec/23/in-footballs-third-age-old-certainties-have-melted-away-and-nothing-is-as-it-seems

 

Terry Coopers Bristol City used that kick off with a slight difference, the ball was deliberately put out of play by the corner flag for a throw in, and City would press the throw in. This was to create a impression on the opposition of being under pressure from kick off and set a tempo to the game.    

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which figures?

 

The figures referred to in the thread - 85% of key decisions are correct. A figure reached by looking at a sample of decisions and a panel which includes individuals who are not expert referees, then vote upon decisions including subjective decisions whether they deem them to be correct. 

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

it’s the same thing Cowshed regardless of who dishes out the fine. It’s an effective way of gagging managers financially who openly slag  off the officials.

Personally I think it’s a shame - I used to enjoy seeing managers losing it. Neil Warnock was hugely entertaining……………..

 

 

It literally cannot be the same thing, the bodies are separate. A Manager can criticise a referee, but they cannot insult referees and bring the game into disrepute which is what Nigel Pearson did. 

Personally I think the FA is far to lenient towards Managers.  Its a shame Managers feel so free to abuse referees and undermine authority from their protected positions. Managers receive paltry punishments while their behaviour has far reaching serious repercussions throughout football. 

28 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Plenty of other managers who’ve done the same have been fined by the PGMOL

It is not within the PGMOL's power to gag or fine Managers.

31 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Plenty of other managers who’ve done the same have been fined by the PGMOL

Fined by? The FA.  

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Haha, nah, lucky guess!

Could you explain how these figures are calculated? I could not. Subjective decisions cannot have a unequivocal right. 

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Your original post above for reference. It’s 15% of the contested decision wrong. Let’s say 85% of all decisions are trivial / uncontested, then it’s 15% of the remaining 15% (2.25%) they are getting wrong. 

Were you cheating? Refs have been assessed as being correct 98% of the time.

Referee myth-busting: How many decisions do officials get right? | Football News | Sky Sports

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Getting 15% of decisions wrong seems a bit frightening to me.  5%?  Maybe just acceptable…

Refs do not get 15% of decisions wrong.

What was studied here were key decisions, not all decisions. Amongst the study were subjective decisions because some laws of the game are subjective. 

26 minutes ago, Never to the dark side said:

A panel - introduced this season - is made up of five ex-players and coaches, as well as a representative from the EFL and refereeing body, the PGMOL.

Saying officials get 85 per cent correct.

Don't think they have attended any Bristol City games,as the "correct rate" would then fall below 50 per cent

Me thinks its like marking your own homework

Could you highlight one game J?

3 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

• A state-of-the-art training ground (still haven't been told the difference between "very nice" and "state-of-the art")

Five years ago BCFC were sharing facilities at QEH, the academies base was portacabins at the WISE campus. City had some catching up to do.

I have visited most of the pro clubs in the South and the West's training grounds due to coaching at development level and a son playing academy football. I have also visited Man City and Man Utds training grounds to watch my Son play. 

How does BCFC's training ground compare to Brighton's, or Southampton's, or Leicesters, or Wolves, or Man City, or Arsenal or Chelsea's or Spurs etc?    

The answer would be it is not on par with those facilities. It certainly not top tier like Man City or parallel to the Brighton's and Leicester's. Place Bristol City training facility in the third tier, modern, the highest standard of a club in the region of the South West  and reflective of the clubs status, and its significant but not Premier league investment in training structure.

17 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I believe that's a bit too harsh on the Lansdowns. As someone mentioned earlier, we did give it a shot, but unfortunately, things didn't pan out – that's football for you.

Take a glance at Chelsea and Manchester United; despite spending hundreds of millions, they seem to have worsened. SL might have backed the wrong horse, but to argue that he lacks ambition is untrue. While some believe football is a straightforward equation of money equaling success, it's far more intricate, an unsolvable formula.

The Lansdowns have indeed made some questionable decisions, but as fans, all we have is hindsight to critique them with. I don't recall anyone advising MA and LJ to curb their spending at the time; in fact, we were all clamouring for the signings of Palmer, Kalas, Dasilva etc. At that moment, no one labelled these as poor decisions. However, with hindsight, these very actions are now used as a stick to criticise everyone involved.

 

You have just used that we again. Supporters and their views are not one homogenised lump.

There were numerous posts about spending, and how poor spending was during that time. I called the spending versus income a nonsense, no hindsight, and it was.  

Posters highlighted a concern about Palmers work rate in a team. He was a show pony, a showy flick every ten minutes isn't enough, five touches slows the game down, not getting into shape damages the teams intent. Yes, I and others labelled it a poor signing at the time that did not appear to have the dna to fit the identity and project that Lee Johnson was possibly(!!) pursuing at the time. I can go in to depth about clubs in the bag, another nonsense where signings costing millions were dumped in a hole called clubs in the bag at the training ground, and I was writing that at the time, clubs in the bag was millions of pounds wasted. 

I and many others posted for years about BCFC lack of model of play (identity) and scattergun recruitment applied to the morphing non existent model.

We were not all clamouring for these signings at all.

2 hours ago, Ghost Rider said:

I'm a bit fed up with everything Bristol City right now. It all just feels a bit backward, you know? Why are we so stuck in the past as a club and as fans, especially when we've not really achieved much? Check out the first page of the forum, and you'll see what I mean:

• Nigels leaving card
• Nigel Pearson, Bit of an Artist
• Making a fuss about winning the Carabao Cup 6 years ago (No mention of that Liverpool win we keep harping on about)
• Richard Gould back
• Mark Aston thread

And don't get me started on our social media team—constantly wishing old players happy birthday and every new shirt being some kind of "throwback." It's like we're stuck in a time loop or something.

Why can't we, as a club and a fanbase, be a bit more with the times? We seem to love the same old stuff, especially this weird obsession with Nigel Pearson. The guy was just so average, I don't get where all the love comes from. It's just basic and, well, a bit rubbish. We're basically cheering on failure and being okay with being average.

Why can't we, as a club and fanbase, get with the times a bit more? We're stuck on the same old things, especially this weird love for Nigel Pearson. The bloke was just so average; I'm scratching my head wondering why everyone's so into him apart from the fact he was a bit edgy. It's just basic and, well, a bit tinpot. We're basically cheering on failure and settling for being just average.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

P.s Don't get me started with the love for Massengo just because he had big hair. Never has such a below average player been so lorded.  

 

Who is your we?