Cowshed

1 hour ago, sunningdalered said:

I'd be interested in other's opinion on whether you think players can be coached in the technique of receiving the ball whilst on the half-turn, so that their momentum is naturally forward, or whether it's in the DNA, and players either have it or not. 

Watching the Ipswich v Norwich game yesterday, the difference between the two teams in this respect was very noticeable. Ipswich, admittedly, are a talented side, and have a bunch of technically sound players, so they probably fancied it against a horrible Norwich team - which might have been a factor. 

Any prospect that LM can get our lot doing more than play it the way they are facing when receiving the ball? IMO this would be a big step in moving towards a more progressive style of play for us, and getting us on the front foot. Haven't really seen much of it since Alex left (which might be answering my own question!) 

What dna would this be? There is no football gene. Football skill is learned and neural pathways are created by training (repetition).

Yes all players are coached to receive the ball on the half turn. Players consistently go through training that has them opening out to receive the ball on the back foot - On the half turn. Passing patterns and formation in diamonds and triangles can increase players opening out. 

The unconscious competency of this is learned, players with intense training that is integrated to playing style can open out their body as a reflex to the pattern of the game before them.

The answer to your question of how fast this can take to improve further is months and years depending on environment, playing approach, training and the individuals ability. 

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I’m guessing when you say direction, you means towards “targets”, not NSEW?

Which zones of the pitch and how often, but these are direction. Catapult easily will tell you if you if players are staying N if you want them to, and importantly it can demonstrate to a player they are, or not. There is frequently a benefit here to using person centred communication styles as we learn differently .. You know all that.

3 hours ago, formerly known as ivan said:

"Data doesn’t give you points or change league positions, but what it does tell you is the direction you’re heading in and if you continue to create chances, and minimise the opposition, then you’ll win games."

Assuming this is a correct quote from Manning as it’s on the Bristol Live page. What waffle! Back to the days of measuring grass it would seem. Its nearly enough to make you want to tap out at this point.

Nigel Pearson used data to tell which direction payers were heading in, how fast, and how often - The GPS system catapult one the club use did that.

10 hours ago, spudski said:

I didn't actually start the thread. 

A Moderator did ( don't know who, and wasn't informed of change) .

They also added the thread title. 

I originally posted this, in response to the thread about Greek football...hence my quote about the Turks competing. 

I apologise for stating you started the thread. You have not unequivocally stated that 380 bans for attacking and threatening refs is a problem, it is. 

The assaults and threats are part of a moral decline in football. The dissent and abuse at the top contributes to what occurs throughout the game. 

The abuse directed at referees should be viewed as seriously as we view prejudice and racism. The behaviour at the top sends a ripple throughout the game where behaviour is mirrored towards referees, including children referees (abuse of a minor is criminal).

Instead of focussing on refs (humans making errors) in a game that is chaotic, and full of errors, the game, the media should be focussing on the disgusting behaviour that is directed at referees, the behaviour we see on TV that is imitated away from the top of the game, but it does not happen, because that is bread and circuses, with a lot of money.

Few months ago the Somerset FA sent out a heart felt message about behaviour at games. This Sunday at the U15 - 16 levels of the AYL there are 43 games, and at this point only 14 refs to cover those matches. That is a national picture. 

This weekend no doubt refs will be abused, attacked, threatened etc including children and on TV we will see the ritual of undermining authority, the casting of doubt about ref standards and competency, aspersions on character and the continuance of a cycle of the moral decline.

Everything relates to whats at the top and on TV.  

2 hours ago, spudski said:

How many amateur games of all ages are played every week in this country? 

380 is a few over 1 a week.

I'd be interested to know those figures compared to those from abroad. 

I'm not saying it's acceptable..I'm just looking at the bigger picture of how society is these days. 

You started the thread with a ref being assaulted being absolutely disgraceful. 

380 bans for attacking and threatening refs is a problem. That is a big picture. 

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Maybe...but I would expect less at Professional level.

If 380 bans for attacking, or threatening referees are maybe a problem, how many do you think there should be for this behaviour to be a problem?  

12 hours ago, spudski said:

The Turks are competing as well...

 

380 bans for amateur footballers and coaches following spike in referee attacks | ITV News

We have a big problem here.   

28 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

I am just concerned that his speech patterns, unintelligible to many of us, may be equally unintelligible to the players and coaches.  Must be a seismic shock for them after Nige.

Of course if players make sense of it and results follow, all we fans need to do is ignore LM’s press interviews.  But until we string together four or five wins then I shall remain sceptical.

Very very doubtful.

Modern players grow up with football speech, and how Liam Manning speaks will be very familiar, players from academies up are imbibed in footballs own communication. 

11 hours ago, CityReds said:

Fine line between sharing information and trade secrets but I have found I need more info in some of the things in LMs interviews. Lots of talk about ‘In Block’ but that won’t resonate with a large proportion of the fan base

I do not think coaching terminology is a trade secret. Its ubiquitous to great numbers of coaches and players.

I would expect the word block, or shape, or screen to resonate with most coached players post 13 as the theme there is so very widely used. Words like block are trigger words to relay information quickly and spark efficiently physical movement.

I do agree with your point about wanting, or needing to know more. Coach speak can become impenetrable .. I frequently didn't understand what Lee Johnson was talking about as he had a degree of the unique versus speech that was widely used in football levels. Its an area I think that would come down to the skills of the interviewer to discern if further explanation is beneficial, or widely interesting for fans 

2 hours ago, spudski said:

'Behaviors'...I bloody loath that coaching terminology. Manning uses it a lot. 

He definitely uses a lot of coaching terminology that is the equivalent to corporate talk. 

It's fine when talking to players, but it would be better if when talking to the public, via the media, that he spoke in layman's terms. 

It's easy to understand, however, when things aren't going well, it can be used against you. 

The FA should communicate better with coaches when it comes to talking to the public. 

LJ, Ashton all got Pelters for it. 

Manning should be aware imo. 

I like the term behaviours, because everything is a behaviour. People make choices to behave in manners that make success more likely, or not, or worse. Another I like is solutions not excuses. Solution based thinking, growth mindset, challenge states, non negotiables etc are behaviours, so is get your ******* head up Son and crack on. 

Part of the EUFA badges includes a section on dealing with the media. The style of communication between Manager/coach and fans is down to each individual Manager/coach and their club not the FA.  

I contacted BCFC once about sharing information with fans about playing identity, training methods and how these were applied throughout the club to the XI .. I got the impression the club really didn't get many (any) enquiries about that type of thing.

23 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

I was struck by this from LM post match: 

‘We had words at half-time, to be fair, which the lads know, it's not reinforcing anything they don't already know. 

"I wasn't too happy, to be honest, but we have to smash the nicety out of it and the perception the way the game is at now, the way for me around not being nice is having that edge, whether it be moving the ball a bit quicker so they can't get near you, whether it be the quality of the cross, the timing of your run. It's about daily work and having that edge to us, we have to have that in the culture, we have to work at it, and develop that ruthless side to us.’

Do coaches do a course on how to speak this way? 

To a degree the answer is yes. As part of coaching badges there are modules on communication, learning styles, leadership approaches, the constant forming of shared culture for the team, and coaching thus has its coach speak vernacular. 

A consistent in coaching is emphasis on collective behaviours, team mindset the us and we's above are typical. 

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

A coach for 18 years but unable to react to Norwich's tactical readjustment, resulting in a mess of a second half and defeat. 

Our individual errors may not have been so costly if the collective, coaches included, had found an answer to the opposition's second half tactics.

This is grown up football now, not some lower league kick about.

It's still early days but the jury remains out. 

Your jury is out after four games.

The players will not be able to react yet to the readjustments Liam Manning is making. Its logical with a team at the forming stage that some players will not cope and fall away. Messes should be an expectation when implementing a differing model of play, in Manning speak the team/squad will not collectively have gained the behaviours, culture and use the principles of play that make success more likely. 

In grown up football despite what a Jon Lansdown thinks a coach will not integrate their playing intent into a squad of players in four games. 

On 05/12/2023 at 14:43, Mr Popodopolous said:

Use of KPIs is an interesting one.

Will Manning have these himself ie PPG, total points in a season, League position, and so on.

I would suggest a few if so:

*1.4 PPG

*63-65 pts in a season

*Perhaps 8th-11th

That would be for this season. More likely 10th or 11th than above but.

KPI's can be used very differently.

Key performance indicators are the metrics of individual players and units and the team.

KPI's for central midfielders can be physical - Players have to run 10km + and the unit a collective figure.

Forwards have to display a physical KPI of what can be called DTI (defensive tactical intensity) where a player has to be able to consistently close a player down in a given time, recover in a identified time and this can also be a collective unit (pressing) figure. 

On these KPI's proceed including possession across zones, thirds , players and units leading to penetrative passes, XG's assists etc.

The KPI's can be Mr Mannings behaviours. Players KPI's become goals to achieve, goal focus to improve individually, and collectively behaviours as a team - Behaviours implemented as a team that make success more likely. 

This is not a claim to be exact for this coach, but its not uncommon practice in coaching

2 minutes ago, petehinton said:

They’ve shut down a few centres yeah, because of relegation / the new owners being absolutely obsessed by data. It’ll grow to become one of the most ridiculous decisions they’ve ever made imo. They’ll never ever be able to reopen it, due to the circumstances in which they were able to have access granted to be there in the first place!

I think Bristol City should be employing the staff Southampton let go. There are players who Ian Rossiter scouted and coached now at BCFC throughout levels, and Ian had joined Southampton. He should have been kept by City in the first place.

12 hours ago, petehinton said:

I think there is a blend of genuine hype to believe, bigging up the academy to help with the narrative of not spending money on players, and we’ve just been so used for so many years producing one player who’s maybe good enough to have a stint in the first team then be sold a few years later that (we pretty much went from Skuse….huge gap….Bryan) now having a solid group at most ages is still a bit of a novelty. 
 

IMO the ones I’ve mentioned above are the ones I’m most excited about, and for anyone who was there Sunday will see what I mean about athletes. Meerholz is an absolute unit, 6ft 2, ball playing lefty and he’s just 17. 
 

The one thing I do roll my eyes at a bit, and I understand why they do it, is HPC this, HPC that. It’s a lovely building. Nice facilities. They are brilliant pitches. But you are cramming in first team, all academy ages, the womens side and all non playing staff into that building. Pearson made reference to it in his final days, which also probably went down like a bucket of sick seeing as it’s heaven on earth to the club, essentially saying if we were to grow as a club and operation which is ultimately the aim, it’s not really fit for purpose. So I don’t know what the expansion potentially is, or if it’s even possible?
 

Is it a damn sight better than first team being in failand in crap facilities and the academy being on the motorway? Without a doubt, but the narrative it’s best in class for the division, that it’s somehow saved the academy and it’s the reason that Semenyo, Scott etc flourished is baloney, imo. They flourished because they’re good enough and were blooded really, really well at the perfect time for their development. 
 

Category is another point I’ve seen raised. One thing I do agree with, within reason, and Tinnion covered this last year, is there’s no real point in becoming category 1 from the category 2 we are now. Running costs, quality of coaching (costs) become much higher, it doesn’t particularly protect us from a bigger club coming in and taking someone they really want to, just means the compensation is much higher & still a pittance for a PL club. We’d also be grouped into cat 1 league, so against Chelsea, Man City, United etc who take incredible pride (rightly) in winning it all at academy level, and rarely let their top players at those ages go out on loan in order to fulfill winning it all, so in short we’d get absolutely pumped most weeks. We also can’t be cat 1 with the facilities we have atm (see above HPC point!), so would need upgrading if we ever wanted to as we don’t have the right indoor areas (and I think 
 

My other gripe is recruitment and scouting. My fear (and there’s very recent proof of this), but the approach from the club seems to me to currently be “well we’re the best in the area, if they’re good enough we’ll hear about them” or they’ll fall on our lap with recommendations like antoine and Alex did. That’s not really how it works. A 15 year old lad from the area signed a 2 year YTS at Newcastle last month after a short trial, and after City (and others, tbf) weren’t interested because of his lack of academy experience up until being 15. Low and behold, we became interested after hearing Newcastle were.  There’s some top 21s at Southampton who are from Bristol and been overlooked, have made it into matchday squads there, and who I have no doubt would be in and around our first team this season. Maybe even starters honestly. 
 

A few on here know (and I don’t mind knowing) but i talent scout for North Somerset RTC & have done for a few years now, and being out and about most weekends over that period I have seen City staff (scouts) at games once (no typo). But have seen Villa & West Brom staff a fair few times. It’s a huge shame and also just something I don’t understand at all. The quality at all ages at Avon League/woodspring levels these days is extremely, extremely strong. 
 

A bit of a ramble, but it’s all the above - along with the nest egg, best squad ever comments - that make me feel even more passionately / protective over it (especially being involved in it from a youth etc perspective). In what strange universe we can harp on about all our success & have the club Pat themselves on the back each day about certain things (and also not promoting that you can watch the 18s and 21s for free entry and parking multiple times each month!!!), and yet we are left with having Joe James (who came through at North Somerset, even more extra points for being a Kewstoke lad) as our only fit RB across all senior age groups in the club is an absolute travesty to me.
 

The lad is a pretty mid-range u18 player, in the nicest way possible, hardly featured in the 21s yet we are meant to laud him being thrown in when he’s not ready, along with throwing Jamie KL on when we’re chasing the game as we’re so out on our feet, in a game that was then basically outed as being make or break for our manager of 2.5 years as a major success for the club??? How is that good for their development when JJ drops straight out the squad immediately afterwards.  Feels like some strange dystopia to me. 
 

Anyway, I massively digress, just a real passion and interest of mine.  A 10 minute wait for the bus well spent

Off at a tangent. Southampton are shutting their Bath academy. Its an area BCFC can move into.

8 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Tired of the moaning about a bloke on the way out of the game who was bang average. You lot still show up every week. Stay home you don’t like the way it is being run. Nope everyone still showing up. No one organising protests. NOTHING! All talk no action. You lot are only happy when you are unhappy. Try embracing the change and appreciate the better football. You lot have Holden more patience. Embarrassing

Your an interesting poster but you have let yourself down there. Nigel Pearson's Managerial CV is not bang average.

Better is your perception and your opinion. That is all that is. In four games you couldn't evidence base your better.

27 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

I’d actually be interested to read more about why this style of football suddenly seems to have completely swept through the football league like a new strain of Covid. 

Every team seems to try and play it. The best chances every team creates each week seems to be when they nick it off the opposition centre back trying to play like Xavi.

Is this Pep Guardiola’s influence or something else?

Its not sudden. Coaching evolves and from the nineties there has been a shift towards more possession based football and building play through the thirds.

Guardiola's influence is massive, as is Klopps and the UK has imported foreign coaches and influences. We the UK have moved from direct and 4-4-2 to a multitude of approaches based upon possession as a keystone to what is varying and wildly differing football - Bournemouth, Brighton, Liverpool, Newcastle, Man City will all build from the back but all play differently as they advance up the pitch.

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Knew you’d know.  

Its been one to keep an eye on, and on occasions coach to players. There is no longer challenge v everything v keepers in the box. There is sense in it unlike the PSG Newcastle penalty last night, what I thought I knew, I don't. 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I seem to recall something along the lines of if the keeper has the ball in one hand but pressure on it, ie when it’s on the ground, he’s considered to be in control.  So a bit like a try in rugby when they have to apply pressure.

I might’ve got the interpretation wrong, but the old “two hands” shout wasn’t as defined as I thought.

There is nothing in the law about pressure. You cannot challenge a keeper when he throws the ball or bounces it. Having the ball in one hand, in the palm, or having a hand on top of the ball is the keeper being in possession and the keeper cannot be challenged.

A keeper cannot also be challenged by an opponent who is not in a playable distance of the ball.  

The laws have been gradually adapted to take into consideration the safety of keepers. They are more vulnerable than the outfield players.

10 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I don’t fundamentally object to these changes - although I do wonder why a player other than the captain should be allowed to approach the ref in any circumstances at all - but I do think they miss what is actually needed.

I think a big part of the appeal of football, and why it has a wider popularity than, say, rich or cricket, is that it is a simple game that is easy to understand. To my mind, the two major motivations for changes in rules are to make the laws of the game easier to understand and to help games to flow better.

But I feel there is a constant move towards making the simple more confusing. I don’t want to sound like a grumbling middle aged man but I feel that, since I got into the game in 1990, things like offside, handballs and fouls all feel harder to understand and I am sceptical that the game has benefitted from that.

Rule changes are not necessarily for the game. The offside rule changed repeatedly to create more attacking play and reduce significantly the number of offsides per game. Attacking play creates more incident and goals.  More entertainment for TV viewers.  

8 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

The refs were bad enough before but now that many of them are required for VAR the ones on the pitch are even worse. I wonder why recently retired refs can't do VAR

Ex referees do.

Just now, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Refereeing is tough and respect for the job is due but that respect has to be earned not commanded. I want to see more commitment to referee training as right now it seems inadequate. In over 60 years of watching professional football I genuinely believe the current crop officiating the Prem and EFL to be the worst I've seen, rubber stamped when I consider Keith Stroud to be one of the best. 

VAR has made refereeing harder not easier and no amount of technology or gimmicky changes such as the use if sin bins will improve standards or respect. 

What training do you think referees do? 

16 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I don't know if the rules have been changed but I thought even the intention of doing a headbutt was a red card offence? So simply the movement of the head towards the player. 

The laws have not changed. A attempted headbutt is violent conduct, and contact is not necessary.

Law 12 - Fouls and Misconduct (thefa.com)

18 hours ago, Crackers Corner said:

I didn't know that

Reading the thread I don't think you are alone. Sins bins have been used at varying levels since 2019. From youth football to U23 and some adult leagues.

sin-bins-infographic.pdf

3 minutes ago, Crackers Corner said:

I think will will be very hard to implement on grass roots. My issue with this is changes such as var etc is that it's moving the pro game away from grass roots football.  Var has been proven to be controversial and get things wrong and this will be no different. My thoughts are to pay refs a decent wage and improve the standard.

I don't however have an issue with captains only talking to the refs as refs have a hard time and if this helps then fair enough.

Sin bins are used in grass roots football, players can be sin binned in the AYL. 

6 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

The real problem is the amount of young referees who are quitting the game, assaults are now common practice in non league grassroots games. 
These ‘were’ the future referees. 

It is almost like there is a synergy present where behaviours at the top manifest themselves throughout the game. I cant quite put my finger on the psychology where diminished respect for officialdom  at the games zenith is not mirrored at grass roots games ..