Millen Moving In The Right Direction

[Nibor]

That's a link to the allocation of Premier League prize money. My question concerned this assertion that keeps getting made that a similar prize-money arrangement exists in the Championship. I don't believe that such an arrangement exists, and I'm waiting to see evidence that it does.

There isn't, strictly speaking, a prize money ladder in the Championship. There was a prize of £50k for the winners and £25k for the runners up three years ago but nothing below that. There were smaller prizes for winners of league one and two.

However most of the money clubs get from the league comes from the sharing of TV money. There was, and may still be, a scaled allocation of TV money.

Details of this aren't public but here's a link to a good article by David Conn from when the Premier League (oh so generously) agreed to provide an extra £22.4m to the football league three or four years back:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/aug/08/sport.comment1

"Championship clubs have agreed a "ladder" of payments according to where they finished last season; the bottom 12 will receive £775,000 each of the new money, a figure which climbs to £1.3m for the top club."

[chinapig]

There's a lot of pointless arguing about eachc others' views of Keith Millen. Fact is our opinions are as useful as a chocolate teapot. My worthless opinion is that Millen has used the resources he has quite effectively. Not brilliantly, but not as poorly as some of you make out. He will have learned about the players he has and what has worked for him and what hasn't. Managing or leading is not some easily acquired skill It is very personal and one's effectiveness is dependant on your awareness of your strengths and weaknesses and ability to recognise how they impact on individuals and on the team as a whole. What has impressed me is how he gives honest appraisals of our performances. There's no seeking to claim credit where it's not due or avoid responsibility for failures. This gives me hope that he won't have the blind spots that some managers have (Wilson and Johnson to name 2).

His big test is this summer. Next season the side will be a proper reflection of his management. He won't be in the position of stepping up to a role. He is it now and this is a much different dynamic to deal with. My biggest concern is that his lack of ego could work against him. A lot of managers are arrogant and therefore able to deflect criticism, especially during bad times. 2 bad games and the carping will start from the tactical experts on places like this.

It seems very likely that Maynard will go for some decent money. Albert's head may well be turned by the premier league too. Some of the money received will be made available to him. How he deals with this will be key.

Unlikely I suspect as all Managers tend to have a stubborn streak and a tendency not to let the facts get in the way. I'm not sure he has always been honest (he claimed we played well for 88 mins against Watford at home when we were wretched for instance). Given that Keith has also described McAllister as brilliant it appears he is not immune.

Agreed as to the summer but the test for me is whether we end up with the usual suspects who have been around too long and perhaps see a first team place as their right still guaranteed a place regardless of performance. Though his scope for change may be limited if we cannot ship out players who are in their comfort zone.

[extonsred]

If the season had begun after the Cardiff result we'd only be 5 points behind QPR, or something along those lines. Keith is doing a brilliant job for us so far.

This and the last post -- 71pts from 47 games - do put things in perspective and show Millan to be developing into a v good manager with much potential. In addition to the difficulties he has had to face we are increasingly seeing a team playing exciting football with huge potential which he is clearly commiting himself to belying the many claims that he is a defensive coach with a defensive attitude. Let us all hope that he is able to turn these possibilities, which he has created, into the future progress we all hope to see.

[Nogbad the Bad]

doesnt matter where we are most of the season, its where we finish that counts,

nice though that your willing to give him another season, i thought it was just a case this season of "we will only stay up because of the bottom three being dreadful"

That was a very reasonable thought until the recent, season saving good run.

City were on terrible form and proving well capable of turning out performances so atrocious that we looked one of the very worst teams in this league. There was every likelihood we would deservedly go down barring 3 other teams playing even worse.

Remember, Donald, that just about every fan who doubted the wisdom of KM's appointment, and questions it still, went out of their way to wish him well and hoped he would succeed.

Many of us are still not convinced due to the fact we never know when the next awful run will start or how soon KM will be able to halt it when it does. He's a manager whose teams go on excellent and appalling runs of results and form for no particular reason so it is very hard to have confidence in his team achieving any sort of consistency necessary for a successful, or even comfortable season.

Nothing proved yet as to his capabilities to take the club forward but no doubt we're all relieved and grateful that the disaster that looked very possible up to a few weeks ago has been averted.

[Slave to the rhythm]

There isn't, strictly speaking, a prize money ladder in the Championship. There was a prize of £50k for the winners and £25k for the runners up three years ago but nothing below that. There were smaller prizes for winners of league one and two.

However most of the money clubs get from the league comes from the sharing of TV money. There was, and may still be, a scaled allocation of TV money.

Details of this aren't public but here's a link to a good article by David Conn from when the Premier League (oh so generously) agreed to provide an extra £22.4m to the football league three or four years back:

http://www.guardian..../sport.comment1

"Championship clubs have agreed a "ladder" of payments according to where they finished last season; the bottom 12 will receive £775,000 each of the new money, a figure which climbs to £1.3m for the top club."

Many thanks. I wasn't previously aware of that arrangement.

It's irritating that there's such secrecy surrounding this, whereas the Premier League are relatively transparent about where their money goes!

[SC_Red]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but including his spell as caretaker at the end of last year Millen has now been in charge for 47 games (just over a full championship season). We have picked up 71pts over this period which would probably place us just outside of the play offs. Considering this is his first job as a football league manager, the injuries he's had to contend with this year and he &nbsp;had to pick up the pieces from two managerial departures, I think he's done a very good job.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div><br></div>

I make it 68 points from 47 games.

http://www.soccerbase.com/managers/manager.sd?manager_id=2008

[Somerset_Sam]

Well now Caulker is out for the rest of the season the home grown kids will probably get a chance!!!

[Donald]

That was a very reasonable thought until the recent, season saving good run.

City were on terrible form and proving well capable of turning out performances so atrocious that we looked one of the very worst teams in this league. There was every likelihood we would deservedly go down barring 3 other teams playing even worse.

Remember, Donald, that just about every fan who doubted the wisdom of KM's appointment, and questions it still, went out of their way to wish him well and hoped he would succeed.

Many of us are still not convinced due to the fact we never know when the next awful run will start or how soon KM will be able to halt it when it does. He's a manager whose teams go on excellent and appalling runs of results and form for no particular reason so it is very hard to have confidence in his team achieving any sort of consistency necessary for a successful, or even comfortable season.

Nothing proved yet as to his capabilities to take the club forward but no doubt we're all relieved and grateful that the disaster that looked very possible up to a few weeks ago has been averted.

the problem is, some don't.....some believe that he should have went at the same time as Johnson and refused to give praise until the last month and even now, it's a case that if we aren't for top 6 he should go. That's not giving someone a chance.

City were on terrible form, but as many have said, look at the injuries this season....

Personally felt that that we'd finish mid table and still feel top half is possible, Maynard was always going to come back and get some goals before the end of the season and his extended absence was always going to be an issue, you can't take the top scorer out of a team like ours and expect us to do great, his return has been the turning point, (as has the bonus of Cisse form in midfield) it's as simple as that!

[Garland-sweden]

the problem is, some don't.....some believe that he should have went at the same time as Johnson and refused to give praise until the last month and even now, it's a case that if we aren't for top 6 he should go. That's not giving someone a chance.

City were on terrible form, but as many have said, look at the injuries this season....

Personally felt that that we'd finish mid table and still feel top half is possible, Maynard was always going to come back and get some goals before the end of the season and his extended absence was always going to be an issue, you can't take the top scorer out of a team like ours and expect us to do great, his return has been the turning point, (as has the bonus of Cisse form in midfield) it's as simple as that!

Yes, agre.

[Nogbad the Bad]

the problem is, some don't.....some believe that he should have went at the same time as Johnson and refused to give praise until the last month and even now, it's a case that if we aren't for top 6 he should go. That's not giving someone a chance.

One or two were more outspoken than others but the vast majority always stated they hoped he'd succeed. For the purposes of our exchange your reply here isn't really relevant because those who were against his appointment AND wished him to fail were few and far between indeed.

City were on terrible form, but as many have said, look at the injuries this season....

Every club has injuries, we are just that much more aware of our own. Having said that the recent injuries to Carey, Fontaine and Caulker in quick succession really are extraordinary. With most clubs having big squads, plus the loan market, not many managers can honestly use injuries as an excuse and the good one's wouldn't want to. KM's had more than average bad luck with injuries, little doubt about that, but he's also at a club with the spending power to replace Maynard with Stead & Pitman, bring in Rose then replace with Woolford, sign Keogh & Spence to plug gaps where necessary etc. We've almost always had a pretty strong matchday squad to choose from whoever's been out. On occasions his selection, tactics, substitutions (or lack of them) have cost us, injuries or not.

Personally felt that that we'd finish mid table and still feel top half is possible, Maynard was always going to come back and get some goals before the end of the season and his extended absence was always going to be an issue, you can't take the top scorer out of a team like ours and expect us to do great, his return has been the turning point, (as has the bonus of Cisse form in midfield) it's as simple as that!

Pitman was a great signing by KM who has been an excellent replacement for Maynard as his match statistics prove. KM seemed loathe to trust him for some time even though he's looked sharp and very confident more or less from day 1. Of course we've missed Maynard but Pitman proving such an able replacement means we've missed his goals less and having had him in the ranks perhaps there is a tendency to overstate slightly the magnitude of being without Maynard. To me Pitman will quite likely take Maynard's mantle as this division's most lethal striker when Maynard inevitably departs, so to his credit that was great forward planning by KM, although perhaps the timing of the signing was fortuitously brought forward by necessity.

What has actually saved this season - and given KM breathing space - has been the phenomenal and consistent performances from Albert Adomah and Steven Caulker, two genuine star players in the modern game who the fans have bonded with. Too many of the team performances and managerial decisions have left us feeling battered and bewildered and for long periods seen the fans miserable and in genuine fear of relegation.

Nothing proven as I say - how he deals with permanently replacing Caulker, whether he can sign the high calibre of left back and playmaker everyone agrees are needed and in the process make City consistently enjoyable to watch while maintaining a strong league position are all key as we look to next season.

He has to prove he has what it takes to stop a poor run of form becoming near catastrophic because the pain of the diabolical runs we have have suffered this season will mean fans will be much less understanding and forgiving should they be repeated.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

the problem is, some don't.....some believe that he should have went at the same time as Johnson and refused to give praise until the last month and even now, it's a case that if we aren't for top 6 he should go. That's not giving someone a chance.

City were on terrible form, but as many have said, look at the injuries this season....

Personally felt that that we'd finish mid table and still feel top half is possible, Maynard was always going to come back and get some goals before the end of the season and his extended absence was always going to be an issue, you can't take the top scorer out of a team like ours and expect us to do great, his return has been the turning point, (as has the bonus of Cisse form in midfield) it's as simple as that!

and exactly what is wrong with that assumption?, he was as much part of the failure of the past 2 years as Johnson, the bad signings were Johnson's fault of course they were, but the coaching was Millen's responsibility and watching the lack of defensive organisation and some players patently unable to actually carry out the basics of footballer is down to coaching.

The point about praise is pathetic, because you never read people's full post's, in your eyes any questioning of Millen's ability is heresy, myself and many others who have doubts over Millen do praise when it's earned, but you never read as far as that, you just then invent scenario's of what you think others are thinking.

For the last time my view is, Millen has done an ok job in challenging circumstances. Most of his signings have proved so far to be good one's. His biggest failing is his slowness to react to when his more radical tactics are not working and sometimes changes come too late usually when the game is lost, his other failing is the same as Johnson playing players out of their positions and he has'nt yet settled on a preferred system.

Myself and many others will get a clearer picture of Millen's ability with the summer signings and the settling on system that suits our squad. I want to see greater consistency, better defensive organisation and to be in the vacinity of a top 6 finish, I don't think that is too much to ask from manager who has had and will continue to have a budget the envy of probably 2/3rds of the division.

[Robbored]

and exactly what is wrong with that assumption?, he was as much part of the failure of the past 2 years as Johnson, the bad signings were Johnson's fault of course they were, but the coaching was Millen's responsibility and watching the lack of defensive organisation and some players patently unable to actually carry out the basics of footballer is down to coaching.

You have made this statement several times but have you ever considered what Millens remit was under Johnson? Point being is that none of us actually know.

It could be that working in an autocracy that Millens role was determined by his boss and that he had little choice in what he coached. Add to that the fact that for several months Johnson's relationship with many of his players was at a very low ebb and maybe, just maybe their hearts weren't 100% in it. After Johnson had gone, Millen took the same players and immediately turned performances around.

Co-incidence? I dont think so.

[Nogbad the Bad]

You have made this statement several times but have you ever considered what Millens remit was under Johnson? Point being is that none of us actually know.

It could be that working in an autocracy that Millens role was determined by his boss and that he had little choice in what he coached. Add to that the fact that for several months Johnson's relationship with many of his players was at a very low ebb and maybe, just maybe their hearts weren't 100% in it. After Johnson had gone, Millen took the same players and immediately turned performances around.

Co-incidence? I dont think so.

Despite what you keep saying, I don't think there was ever any doubt that KM took main responsibility for the defensive coaching under GJ, in fact GJ said he often left the coaching sessions to him altogether.

As for the players apparently stopping playing for GJ (and by implication, the club, the shirt, and us City fans) because some had fallen out with him and their hearts weren't in it, this is an indictment of the players concerned, not the manager. It is not possible for any manager to be popular with all the players but it is the responsibility of every player to give 100% every time they pull on the City shirt. No excuses should ever be made for any individuals who give less.

You imply that KM's good run as caretaker was due to the players liking him, or at least not disliking him, and choosing to up their game. If KM thinks the way forward is to be Mr. Popular with the players he will soon come a cropper because as the manager he will inevitably have to make decisions that will put players' noses out of joint. I hope he has managed to purge the club of those who apparently decided to show their dissatisfaction with GJ by not giving 100% for the club because, if not, the chances are those same players will do the same to him if and when the mood takes them.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You have made this statement several times but have you ever considered what Millens remit was under Johnson? Point being is that none of us actually know.

It could be that working in an autocracy that Millens role was determined by his boss and that he had little choice in what he coached. Add to that the fact that for several months Johnson's relationship with many of his players was at a very low ebb and maybe, just maybe their hearts weren't 100% in it. After Johnson had gone, Millen took the same players and immediately turned performances around.

Co-incidence? I dont think so.

Three points, Firstly you claimed to know Millen's remit 'keeping his head down' was how you described it. Secondly that low ebb you describe started around about November last year, so even if you are correct what about the previous year and the low ebb coincided pretty much with Hartley's homesickness Co-incidence?, I don't think so and thirdly if your description of Millen as some sort of gimp like figure hidden away under Johnson's command is also correct then unfortunately that says more about Millen as a leader than it does about Johnson.

[Robbored]

You imply that KM's good run as caretaker was due to the players liking him, or at least not disliking him, and choosing to up their game. If KM thinks the way forward is to be Mr. Popular with the players he will soon come a cropper because as the manager he will inevitably have to make decisions that will put players' noses out of joint. I hope he has managed to purge the club of those who apparently decided to show their dissatisfaction with GJ by not giving 100% for the club because, if not, the chances are those same players will do the same to him if and when the mood takes them.

Its not about being 'Mr Popular' its about respect.

People in all walks of life will react much more positively to a boss they respect than for one they don't.

As Trundle intimated in his book its hard to play for someone who will belittle and patronise you.

[Robbored]

Three points, Firstly you claimed to know Millen's remit 'keeping his head down' was how you described it. Secondly that low ebb you describe started around about November last year, so even if you are correct what about the previous year and the low ebb coincided pretty much with Hartley's homesickness Co-incidence?, I don't think so and thirdly if your description of Millen as some sort of gimp like figure hidden away under Johnson's command is also correct then unfortunately that says more about Millen as a leader than it does about Johnson.

You moaned on another post that someone hadn't read your post properly. Well.....go back and read mine again and maybe you'll grasp what I'm asking you.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You moaned on another post that someone hadn't read your post properly. Well.....go back and read mine again and maybe you'll grasp what I'm asking you.

Read it and answered it, perhaps the answer is instead of blowing unmerited smoke up Millen's arse when the bovril is hot or Mcallister is'nt quite as crap or you infer he kept his head down for 2 years, you should be more honest and then people won't be so confused by your ramblings.

One question though, as crap as we were for 2 years, when were getting dicked week in week out (especially at home) this season, do you think perhaps their hearts were'nt 100% in it?.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Its not about being 'Mr Popular' its about respect.

People in all walks of life will react much more positively to a boss they respect than for one they don't.

As Trundle intimated in his book its hard to play for someone who will belittle and patronise you.

Respect works both ways, and who knows which side showed a lack of respect first?

I'm not clear on your view on players who obviously stopped giving 100% for the club, apparently because they had fallen out with the manager.

You seem to be saying it's understandable that they chose not to play for GJ, then suddenly found the desire again under the caretaker.

Little wonder if GJ didn't respect some of them.

[Robbored]

Read it and answered it,

No you didn't. You came out with some incomprehensive waffle about smoke and Bovril.......

I asked if you thought it was possible if Millen was working in an autocracy and therefore exempt from the blame you lay at his door.

[Robbored]

Respect works both ways, and who knows which side showed a lack of respect first?

I think thats pretty obvious

I'm not clear on your view on players who obviously stopped giving 100% for the club, apparently because they had fallen out with the manager.

Its understandable. Have been in a similair work situation myself and guess what? the manager was re-located and things improved.

You seem to be saying it's understandable that they chose not to play for GJ, then suddenly found the desire again under the caretaker.

Thats exactly what I'm saying.The improved performances with the same players says that.

Little wonder if GJ didn't respect some of them.

See reply one. Chicken or egg?

[chinapig]

Respect works both ways, and who knows which side showed a lack of respect first?

I'm not clear on your view on players who obviously stopped giving 100% for the club, apparently because they had fallen out with the manager.

You seem to be saying it's understandable that they chose not to play for GJ, then suddenly found the desire again under the caretaker.

Little wonder if GJ didn't respect some of them.

Your point seems to have been glossed over. For my part I'm with you entirely. Personally I'm sick of players (ours and others) getting off scot free and never taking responsibility for what they do on and off the pitch. Managers pay the price, players carry on picking up the money regardless. It's perfectly obvious that some of our long standing players have chosen at times when they will put in a shift yet none of them gets any criticism (apart from Lee Johnson of course who can rarely be accused of lack of effort) compared to either Millen or Johnson. I have worked for good and bad bosses but have never used a bad one as an excuse for not trying. But apparently plenty of fans are perfectly prepared to allow footballers that option. I can no longer afford a season ticket but if I could I would have serious doubts about putting my money into the pockets of footballers.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

No you didn't. You came out with some incomprehensive waffle about smoke and Bovril.......

I asked if you thought it was possible if Millen was working in an autocracy and therefore exempt from the blame you lay at his door.

Funnily part of my incomprehensible waffle was para-phrasing you, so thanks for that.

Well I thought a supposed intelligent person (like you claim to be) you could see I don't know, you obviously think you do, but let's say you are correct and it was an autocracy, what does that say about Millen?, he is certainly not his own man is he, it shows him to be a pathetic weak yes man and for a man supposedly a 'top' coach he obviously did'nt have a lot of faith in his ability in getting a new job or was it the other reason you offered up earlier in the season he was a 'yes man' because his kids were settled at their school?, whatever the reason I really think in your over zealous defence you are actually doing Millen more of a disservice than I am, because it would be a very high risk strategy to his future career to be thought of as a lap dog, frightened to stand up for what actually believed in and whatever you say absolutely nothing can cover up the fact that whoever the manager of BCFC was they would still be getting your full support, because their name was not Gary Johnson, if only you could be honest about that.

[Donald]

and exactly what is wrong with that assumption?, he was as much part of the failure of the past 2 years as Johnson, the bad signings were Johnson's fault of course they were, but the coaching was Millen's responsibility and watching the lack of defensive organisation and some players patently unable to actually carry out the basics of footballer is down to coaching.

The point about praise is pathetic, because you never read people's full post's, in your eyes any questioning of Millen's ability is heresy, myself and many others who have doubts over Millen do praise when it's earned, but you never read as far as that, you just then invent scenario's of what you think others are thinking.

For the last time my view is, Millen has done an ok job in challenging circumstances. Most of his signings have proved so far to be good one's. His biggest failing is his slowness to react to when his more radical tactics are not working and sometimes changes come too late usually when the game is lost, his other failing is the same as Johnson playing players out of their positions and he has'nt yet settled on a preferred system.

Myself and many others will get a clearer picture of Millen's ability with the summer signings and the settling on system that suits our squad. I want to see greater consistency, better defensive organisation and to be in the vacinity of a top 6 finish, I don't think that is too much to ask from manager who has had and will continue to have a budget the envy of probably 2/3rds of the division.

That's the point! He won't!

Unless you have been living under a rock, you'll know that our big spending days are done with, sell before you buy from now on

Hence Millen's comments in the first place regarding youth

[Slave to the rhythm]

Unless you have been living under a rock, you'll know that our big spending days are done with

I think a lot of City fans are in denial about that.

[ateyomike]

one thing to our advantage is the 25 man premier squad I think that is why so many prem players are out on loan so if you are not going to be in the top 25 is there any point in going to the prem money ego and playing in the reserves is that real a football career???

[Donald]

the problem is, some don't.....some believe that he should have went at the same time as Johnson and refused to give praise until the last month and even now, it's a case that if we aren't for top 6 he should go. That's not giving someone a chance.

One or two were more outspoken than others but the vast majority always stated they hoped he'd succeed. For the purposes of our exchange your reply here isn't really relevant because those who were against his appointment AND wished him to fail were few and far between indeed.

City were on terrible form, but as many have said, look at the injuries this season....

Every club has injuries, we are just that much more aware of our own. Having said that the recent injuries to Carey, Fontaine and Caulker in quick succession really are extraordinary. With most clubs having big squads, plus the loan market, not many managers can honestly use injuries as an excuse and the good one's wouldn't want to. KM's had more than average bad luck with injuries, little doubt about that, but he's also at a club with the spending power to replace Maynard with Stead & Pitman, bring in Rose then replace with Woolford, sign Keogh & Spence to plug gaps where necessary etc. We've almost always had a pretty strong matchday squad to choose from whoever's been out. On occasions his selection, tactics, substitutions (or lack of them) have cost us, injuries or not.

Personally felt that that we'd finish mid table and still feel top half is possible, Maynard was always going to come back and get some goals before the end of the season and his extended absence was always going to be an issue, you can't take the top scorer out of a team like ours and expect us to do great, his return has been the turning point, (as has the bonus of Cisse form in midfield) it's as simple as that!

Pitman was a great signing by KM who has been an excellent replacement for Maynard as his match statistics prove. KM seemed loathe to trust him for some time even though he's looked sharp and very confident more or less from day 1. Of course we've missed Maynard but Pitman proving such an able replacement means we've missed his goals less and having had him in the ranks perhaps there is a tendency to overstate slightly the magnitude of being without Maynard. To me Pitman will quite likely take Maynard's mantle as this division's most lethal striker when Maynard inevitably departs, so to his credit that was great forward planning by KM, although perhaps the timing of the signing was fortuitously brought forward by necessity.

What has actually saved this season - and given KM breathing space - has been the phenomenal and consistent performances from Albert Adomah and Steven Caulker, two genuine star players in the modern game who the fans have bonded with. Too many of the team performances and managerial decisions have left us feeling battered and bewildered and for long periods seen the fans miserable and in genuine fear of relegation.

Nothing proven as I say - how he deals with permanently replacing Caulker, whether he can sign the high calibre of left back and playmaker everyone agrees are needed and in the process make City consistently enjoyable to watch while maintaining a strong league position are all key as we look to next season.

He has to prove he has what it takes to stop a poor run of form becoming near catastrophic because the pain of the diabolical runs we have have suffered this season will mean fans will be much less understanding and forgiving should they be repeated.

One or two were more outspoken than others but the vast majority always stated they hoped he'd succeed. For the purposes of our exchange your reply here isn't really relevant because those who were against his appointment AND wished him to fail were few and far between indeed.

so as I said......some were against him him from day one? Yes it's only a minority but it was an ever vocal minority, many of whom are now grudingly giving credit now and giving him "another 12months to prove himself" as a good will gesture.

Every club has injuries, we are just that much more aware of our own

So you don't think we have had terrible luck with injuries this season then and it's just "Average" compared to other clubs, I've never know a season where he have had as many injuries short and long term, we've had to put out some very risky teams at times due to no other options,

Pitman "KM seemed loathe to trust him for some time"

nothing to do with Pitman himself being honest enough to say that he found this level tough at first and didn't feel himself that he was fit enough? He got himself fit and the rest is history.

He has to prove he has what it takes to stop a poor run of form becoming near catastrophic because the pain of the diabolical runs we have have suffered this season

we have had those runs and got dragged down the league and we have stopped them and are steady in mid table now?

bottom line is, a number of fans don't want Millen at this club because he isn't a "big name" and much rather have some fly by night who has no history or feeling for the club to come along regardless of whether he gives a toss about anything other than his salary.

Personally, I'd much rather have someone who was a former player, has worked his way through the coaching setup and is learning his trade, there will be mistakes along the way and I think Millen's have been at the minimum, yes there has been some crap results, but also been many great results this season.

Unfortunately for many, despite having turned the club around last season after Johnson's sacking, turned the club around again this season after coppell fisaco, he still hasn't done enough to prove himself for many.

[Donald]

I think a lot of City fans are in denial about that.

Agreed, the problem was under Johnson, Steve trusted him too much and we spent many on crap and aging crap and had little players of any re-sale value.

We now have a few players that are of value and it's down to Millen now to sale to buy,

Fans have been spoiled since we came up and I think some are in for a culture shock,

On a personal level, I'd be gobsmacked if Maynard is still her come the end of August.

[Monkeh]

so as I said......some were against him him from day one? Yes it's only a minority but it was an ever vocal minority, many of whom are now grudingly giving credit now and giving him "another 12months to prove himself" as a good will gesture.

Every club has injuries, we are just that much more aware of our own

So you don't think we have had terrible luck with injuries this season then and it's just "Average" compared to other clubs, I've never know a season where he have had as many injuries short and long term, we've had to put out some very risky teams at times due to no other options,

Pitman "KM seemed loathe to trust him for some time"

nothing to do with Pitman himself being honest enough to say that he found this level tough at first and didn't feel himself that he was fit enough? He got himself fit and the rest is history.

He has to prove he has what it takes to stop a poor run of form becoming near catastrophic because the pain of the diabolical runs we have have suffered this season

we have had those runs and got dragged down the league and we have stopped them and are steady in mid table now?

bottom line is, a number of fans don't want Millen at this club because he isn't a "big name" and much rather have some fly by night who has no history or feeling for the club to come along regardless of whether he gives a toss about anything other than his salary.

Personally, I'd much rather have someone who was a former player, has worked his way through the coaching setup and is learning his trade, there will be mistakes along the way and I think Millen's have been at the minimum, yes there has been some crap results, but also been many great results this season.

Unfortunately for many, despite having turned the club around last season after Johnson's sacking, turned the club around again this season after coppell fisaco, he still hasn't done enough to prove himself for many.

I don't think thats the case its more to do with some want a fresh approch to the club instead of some one who's been here for years with the same coaching etc,

Frankly its got to the stage where I don't really care any more and will hold off judgement again until 10 games into next season

With the pot empty and a large number of players (loan and out of contract) leaving the club its going to be a very interesting summer for us thats for sure,

[Nogbad the Bad]

so as I said......some were against him him from day one? Yes it's only a minority but it was an ever vocal minority, many of whom are now grudingly giving credit now and giving him "another 12months to prove himself" as a good will gesture.

No, Donald, from polls on here and speaking to fans at the ground it's clear the majority were not in favour of KM's initial appointment. My point was that even though so many were disappointed very few actually wanted him to fail, and almost all wished him well. The general consensus I've read on here recently seems to be relief we are safe and to look at Millen's position again at Christmas, not in 12 months time as you put it.

So you don't think we have had terrible luck with injuries this season then and it's just "Average" compared to other clubs, I've never know a season where he have had as many injuries short and long term, we've had to put out some very risky teams at times due to no other options,

I didn't say that - we've had a terrible time with injuries but my point is so have others and I'm saying we are much more aware of our own situation. For instance Doncaster had 14 players out injured recently and they weren't in a position to replenish their squad like we could. I'd say again that, despite injuries KM has almost always had a strong matchday squad to choose from. However, the recent misfortunes to Carey, Fontaine and Caulker all at once are certainly not average luck with injuries.

Pitman

nothing to do with Pitman himself being honest enough to say that he found this level tough at first and didn't feel himself that he was fit enough? He got himself fit and the rest is history.

Pitman should have played more games this season imo. In Maynard's absence to have a goal snatcher of his type and calibre on the pitch is vital, even if his stamina might not have been quite what it could be.

we have had those runs and got dragged down the league and we have stopped them and are steady in mid table now?

Not sure what you mean. We've had 2 prolonged runs this season when at times we looked as bad as the very worst teams in this league. We followed each with good runs but no one quite knows why or if KM has the managerial ability to prevent the bad runs extending into catastrophic runs in the future. We're either very good or appalling, no consistency at all, and we really don't know which Keith Millen team will turn up in August.

bottom line is, a number of fans don't want Millen at this club because he isn't a "big name"

Nothing to do with big name, it's the fact he was largely an unknown quantity and his history at the club included being assistant manager during some atrocious performances by the club, particularly defensively which is where much of his coaching responsibility would have been. Also, the fact we were assured by SL of the club having received 'dozens of quality applications' for the job.

and much rather have some fly by night who has no history or feeling for the club to come along regardless of whether he gives a toss about anything other than his salary.

Not at all, the best available man for the job was all anybody required and it seemed no effort went into finding him and (re)interviewing him in the rush to appoint KM after Coppell left.

Personally, I'd much rather have someone who was a former player, has worked his way through the coaching setup and is learning his trade, there will be mistakes along the way and I think Millen's have been at the minimum, yes there has been some crap results, but also been many great results this season.

Not bothered whether it was a former player or not - that's Rovers level of thinking - and preferably NOT someone who's 'learning his trade' in the Championship. Why should a club that have spent most of the last 30 years at a low level produce great future managers from the ranks of it's ex-players?

Unfortunately for many, despite having turned the club around last season after Johnson's sacking, turned the club around again this season after coppell fisaco, he still hasn't done enough to prove himself for many.

I think you're right, he hasn't done enough yet. The 'Coppell fiasco' lasted all of one league game, yes there were residual problems but they have been exaggerated and I'm sure SL thought by appointing someone who already knew the players the situation would be stabilised and turned round far earlier than the middle of November. Keeping the club out of the sort of trouble that KM oversaw for the first few months must have been key in SL's thoughts when he appointed him, and the atrocious displays, plus seeing the club occupy bottom place for several weeks and in total disarray, must surely have shaken the chairman.

[Robbored]

I don't think thats the case its more to do with some want a fresh approch to the club instead of some one who's been here for years with the same coaching etc,

Frankly its got to the stage where I don't really care any more and will hold off judgement again until 10 games into next season

Some people think that because Millen has been at City for ages he's set in his ways with an 'old school' attitude. Imo they couldn't be further from the truth.

This thread started about Millen having fresh idea's and plans regarding how younger players are introduced to the first team squad.Thats hardly the thinking of a man set in his ways. I'm pretty sure Millen will have new idea's regarding the coaching set-up as well although thats not necessarilly something we fans would be privy to. He had the foresight to recruit a top, well respected number two in Wigley, who is involved with the U-21 Enland set up. Who better to have first hand knowledge of the various up and coming young players? He was behind in Spence joining City on loan.

As for his playing style, thats pretty fresh as well. Who was the last City manager to regularly set up with two wingers? Ok, it hasn't always worked and there have been some dismal performances but in recent games we've seen things improve significantly.

Like you I don't care much about those whose opinion about Millen is set in their ways.

As for a judgement 10 games into next season. I think thats too early. City could get off to a flyer and be up around the top by end of September but that means very little other than being a confidence booster. Xmas would be my time for an assesment, somwhere around 25 games.