'gap Between Club And Fans As Wide As It's Ever Been'

[cityloyal473]

This is a long detailed, passionate thread which deserves proper answers, not a knee-kerk reaction.

I don't want to make promises I can't back up, nor do I want to be vague about things to which I don't know the answer. In order for me to do this properly there are colleagues at City who I need to talk to, and because of the holiday period, that might take a bit longer than I'd hoped.

I did have a good chat yesterday with Steve Lansdown, Doug Harman, Kevin Smith and Adam Baker about the issues which are being raised in this thread. I also spent time - as I do every matchday - talking to supporters in the car parks, the Supporters Club bar and around the ground.

Everyone agreed that they are issues which need answering fully and honestly, and there are a few things I need to clarify before I can do that. This might take a few days. I don't want to reply to some points, but not to others, so in fairness to everyone I'd like to do one response.

I promise that I will respond fully to every point raised in this thread by the end of the week at the very latest. In the meantime, keep the views coming. Constructive criticism is fine and very welcome.

Good stuff, Dave.

I'll look forward to your response.

[Frome Valley]

OK your not Nick, but equally entitled to your view, which I guess is the point I'm trying to make.

I agree that a fans representative could give input to decisions that aren't of a financial nature, although I'm not sure that is the aim of Nick and his fellow trust members (I assume he is a trust member).

I'm not sure about the putting more in, do you mean cash or time, or in my case my sanity at times!

If supporters want representation at board level that is a whole different kettle of fish to having your views listened too, and hopefully taken into consideration.

The primary responsibility of the board, of any board is ultimately financial, and it's the board and the boards backers who carry the can for financial losses.

What British club would you hold up as an example of ordinary supporters at board level having an influence?

Fans make an investment in the club financially, some go further and buy shares, some fans become active in fans groups dedicating time freely. These supporters have no representation at board level v the salaried directors taking money out of it. Fans put in millions through the turnstiles.

Fan representation on club boards is commonplace, particularly in Scotland. A model often used is one where fans elect the representative, this can ensure that the role is filled by someone with a suitable skill set. I cannot think of a better method of getting fans views considered than the ST having a member on the board. The ST in the past has had surveys of support and could easily evidence base views for BCFC.

Millwall placed a fan on the board because they wanted to improve relations with support i.e communication. That is a topical point right through this thread.

The board obviously make financial decisions, but they also make decisions that can alter the culture and dynamics of support, or the club itself.

It is my view that the club can appear insensitive because it has too little connection with the average bloke who could have told them in a second that what is being considered will get fans backs up.

[Aizoon]

Yes

And it is?

[BCAGFC]

A fan representative would be a good way of communicating with the board, perhaps a member of the Supporters Trust/Supporters Club who is a level headed person and wouldn't get bullied by people who have an agenda.

Didn't Robbered sit in on a few board meetings one at one stage in the past?.

BCAGFC

[Guest]

And it is?

That we aren't representative.

There are currently 27 people viewing this thread.

There were 13000 at the match on Saturday.

None of us can put our view forward as representing the majority.

[Drew Peacock]

Isnt all of this a bit late though?

So he shouldn't bother? That way nothing ever gets done!

My questions would be over the food vouchers.

I assume with the original vouchers the discount was being paid for by the catering company? If not why not, as they were clearly designed to boost outlet sales well before kick off giving ample time for fans to purchase further non-discounted produce to fill in time.

Is the catering company paying for the latest discounts? If not why not, as for the club to be paying for them seems a crazy commercial move and therefore should not have been done.

[Guest]

Fans make an investment in the club financially, some go further and buy shares, some fans become active in fans groups dedicating time freely. These supporters have no representation at board level v the salaried directors taking money out of it. Fans put in millions through the turnstiles.

Fan representation on club boards is commonplace, particularly in Scotland. A model often used is one where fans elect the representative, this can ensure that the role is filled by someone with a suitable skill set. I cannot think of a better method of getting fans views considered than the ST having a member on the board. The ST in the past has had surveys of support and could easily evidence base views for BCFC.

Millwall placed a fan on the board because they wanted to improve relations with support i.e communication. That is a topical point right through this thread.

The board obviously make financial decisions, but they also make decisions that can alter the culture and dynamics of support, or the club itself.

It is my view that the club can appear insensitive because it has too little connection with the average bloke who could have told them in a second that what is being considered will get fans backs up.

OK you've got me interested, why do you think an St member is representative of the average supporter (see what I did there, bloke is so un PC)?

Why do you think the board should allow input that may directly affect income, without responsibility for the overall financial,position, for instance,

City are offered two kit deals, one from Adidas worth 3M, one from Puma worth 1M, the fans rep doesn't like the Adidas kit, and says so. What do the board do? Both deals are final and no negotiation is possible.

I'm a working class bloke (correct use of word), and frankly I wouldn't want to be on the board for all the tea in China.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Drew Peacock]

I'm a working class bloke (correct use of word), and frankly I wouldn't want to be on the board for all the tea in China.

Be careful what you wish for.

I'm not a working class bloke, I'm a member of the professional classes and there is absolutely no way that I would go on the board of a football club.

[Sleepy1968]

Dave

Like I have said many times before,

bring back the home and away match day DVD's.for the those approx twenty of us City fans who want them.

I'll even take those that are supplied to the players after EVERY away game

Don't want any fancy packaging just the disc's

Back to you

They can't even be bothered with the Bristol City Player. The resolution is always LOW (why do we have MEDIUM and HIGH options?), the extended high-lights very variable with the home highlights being particularly amateurish.

[Bristol Rob]

So he shouldn't bother? That way nothing ever gets done!

My questions would be over the food vouchers.

I assume with the original vouchers the discount was being paid for by the catering company? If not why not, as they were clearly designed to boost outlet sales well before kick off giving ample time for fans to purchase further non-discounted produce to fill in time.

Is the catering company paying for the latest discounts? If not why not, as for the club to be paying for them seems a crazy commercial move and therefore should not have been done.

I'd agree with that. I never received them, and my old man doesn't have email so he'd never receive them either. Likewise, no details of the games I could claim a free ticket for someone was communicated, add to that no details of how to book the stadium tour and the offers we're not worth the paper they were printed on.

Granted the food vouchers don't sound like they were worth anything in real terms, but they were advertised as having a cash value and I'd love to know why that never happened.

Oh, the Dolman bar wasn't opened for some of the pre season games, so the advertised 'open every match day' was bobbins as well.

This was all raised at the time but answers never came.

[Frome Valley]

OK you've got me interested, why do you think an St member is representative of the average supporter (see what I did there, bloke is so un PC)?

Why do you think the board should allow input that may directly affect income, without responsibility for the overall financial,position, for instance,

City are offered two kit deals, one from Adidas worth 3M, one from Puma worth 1M, the fans rep doesn't like the Adidas kit, and says so. What do the board do? Both deals are final and no negotiation is possible.

I'm a working class bloke (correct use of word), and frankly I wouldn't want to be on the board for all the tea in China.

Be careful what you wish for.

Looking at clubs ST's tend to be the most appropriate body to represent fans. They should be by their nature be attempting to be representing all fans. Supporters trusts are hardly going to do anything that will harm a club financially, autocratic owners frequently in contrast have put clubs existence in question. An alternative view at Pompey - Rangers may have reigned in the finacial madness. Trusts have saved clubs.

Kit scenario ... Easy biggest deal, red and white no blue quarters.

[Guest]

I'm not a working class bloke, I'm a member of the professional classes and there is absolutely no way that I would go on the board of a football club.

Well Drew you obviously look down on me....who should I look down on?

Joke by the way... Ronnie Barker(?)

[Guest]

Looking at clubs ST's tend to be the most appropriate body to represent fans. They should be by their nature be attempting to be representing all fans. Supporters trusts are hardly going to do anything that will harm a club financially, autocratic owners frequently in contrast have put clubs existence in question. An alternative view at Pompey - Rangers may have reigned in the finacial madness. Trusts have saved clubs.

Kit scenario ... Easy biggest deal, red and white no blue quarters.

I forgot to add that the kit is blue and white, same choice by you?

Both Pompey and Rangers fans were very happy with the trophy cabinets, and leagues they played in, while being run autocratically.

Does being able to afford a ST make you representative?

[Chivs]

Well Drew you obviously look down on me....who should I look down on?

Joke by the way... Ronnie Barker(?)

Lee Johnson. Obviously.

I think John Cleese was involved so I think we can claim this as a BCFC joke.

[Guest]

Lee Johnson. Obviously.

I think John Cleese was involved so I think we can claim this as a BCFC joke.

Chivs I'm only 4 foot 3 inches myself.

We jockeys stick together.

[Libertine Dream]

Duno if this has been mentioned yet but another question that needs answering is why we're they not letting fans out the ee at half time yesterday? It's not like people are going out at half time to cause trouble they are going to spend money in the very over priced dolman bar (£3+ for a can of natch!!!)

[Drew Peacock]

Well Drew you obviously look down on me....who should I look down on?

Students

[Frome Valley]

I forgot to add that the kit is blue and white, same choice by you?

Both Pompey and Rangers fans were very happy with the trophy cabinets, and leagues they played in, while being run autocratically.

Does being able to afford a ST make you representative?

Blue and white is venturing into silly hypothetical re-brand territory where BCFC get paid millions to wear a kit. Any club like City in reality purchasing a service to produce kits can select the colour e.g Red and white.

I seriously doubt if Pompey and Rangers fans were informed of how badly and dangerously the clubs were being run. Responsible support would say stop.

ST = Supporters trusts. A Supporters trust should be inclusive towards fans and ther views, which is why they have been the logical choice at numerous clubs to represent support at board level.

I think I have posted more than enough and I am now taking thet topic away from what could be benficial.

[JamboBCFC]

I don't really know what I would change to be honest.

Had a season ticket for 7 years on the trot but this season i'm no longer under 21 so couldn't afford it/have to work Saturdays as it's the only time I can get regular hours to fit in with uni.

Going down the Gate used to be something I really looked forward to but seeing as I can only make weekday games it would be nice to see a short, free interview on the website from Del at the end of every game (I know the club have to make money from player but just a suggestion), or a Q&A session with Del/Doc every now and again with fans sending questions in.. Just something that would make people that can't afford/commit to a season ticket feel more a part of the club?

A student ticket would always be nice as far as i'm concerned but then again I go to every game I can regardless so hey!

[Guest]

Blue and white is venturing into silly hypothetical re-brand territory where BCFC get paid millions to wear a kit. Any club like City in reality purchasing a service to produce kits can select the colour e.g Red and white.

I seriously doubt if Pompey and Rangers fans were informed of how badly and dangerously the clubs were being run. Responsible support would say stop.

ST = Supporters trusts. A Supporters trust should be inclusive towards fans and ther views, which is why they have been the logical choice at numerous clubs to represent support at board level.

I think I have posted more than enough and I am now taking thet topic away from what could be benficial.

Changing from blue to red was a reality for Cardiffs board of directors.

In pursuit of cups or championships do the ordinary fans really give much thought to how the clubs are being run?

I agree ST's should be inclusive, but how many of our fans have actually joined, and if you use that as a barometer for those who are truly interested what does that say about the average fan?

Sorry you don't want to continue what is an interesting discussion (for me), I think all views are interesting and worth discussing

And challenging if you feel that way inclined.

I've read the entire thread and much of it is very relevant, as is the role of supporters on the board.

[Guest]

Changing from blue to red was a reality for Cardiffs board of directors.

In pursuit of cups or championships do the ordinary fans really give much thought to how the clubs are being run?

I agree ST's should be inclusive, but how many of our fans have actually joined, and if you use that as a barometer for those who are truly interested what does that say about the average fan?

Sorry you don't want to continue what is an interesting discussion (for me), I think all views are interesting and worth discussing

And challenging if you feel that way inclined.

I've read the entire thread and much of it is very relevant, as is the role of supporters on the board.

Replying to another poster is not what this thread is about, (oops done just that) maybe you could cont on another one?

signed the forum police.

[T R]

Great thread, it seems everyone has mentioned things that I have issues with too, trying to think of some other issues. I have only managed to read up to page four so far, so I don't know if it has been mentioned yet.

Why is the middle exit closed in the east end at the end of the game? It is causing a bottle neck with everyone leaving the side entrance/exit merging with the dolman fans. As we experienced on boxing day and saturday, there was a large puddle behind the east end causing a large single file queue to form as they tip toed around it. It would have been far quicker if the exit was open and would have caused less problems. It has also been mentioned there is very poor lighting around there on the night games. Why can't half of the bank behind the east end get taken away to make the walkway wider?

I did notice more relaxed stewarding on saturday, apart from one incident that i read on a different thread, hope the steward was reprimanded by the club.

[CiderHider]

wow

I already have as I agree completely with cityloyal473!!! I walked out early when we were losing 0-4 at home to an average Wolves side and despite being a s/t holder I have no intention at present of returning. I will not renew again. This is hardly a knee-jerk reaction after supporting City for nearly 40 years. Next season I am going to get a s/t for my local team Taunton Town. I hope that irrespective of their results watching lads playing because they love it for a few bob will rekindle my love for football.

As I've said all too many times at BCFC now, it is all Bentleys in the carpark and Trabants on the pitch. That gap for me and mine struggling is too big to bridge given the complete lack of commitment, fight and passion demonstrated repeatedly by young men who do not seem to have any identity with the club or the fans. Game Over!!

Who made you the High Sheriff of Ashton Gate?

Words can lose their meaning on a forum, i should have elaborated more, but i was full of rage so i didn't.

I don't understand what some fans really hope for, all this talk of passion and commitment seems gibberish, . these a pro footballers, signed up to us, do you really think they want to play like an amateur to unimpress everyone?

'hey Dave, remember that shit game you had? 'yeah man it was awsome, i played so bad i was a pure embarrassment and we lost terribly and it was totally all my fault', Yeah man you sucked, at this rate you'll be playing for Barca!

No identity and piss the fans off? how would you suggest a players gains an identity with the club and fans? I simply don't believe fight and passion are in question, its rather trying to calm them down and not get book - any idiot can get sent off, there your fight, down to 10 men. but well done, you showed that you were committed to breaking his legs, Icon.

The only fix is to win games, you could be the nicest bloke trying your best, but if you don't win or play well you wont be remembered, now everyone wants to be remembered positively, so i just don't get the lack of commitment and passion gripe, unless there are other concerns unbeknown to us.

Its up to you how you support the club and what you even condier support, per head fans have little impact on the game, unless you are at the the game, then you really have a duty of support

High sheriff, i like that.

[REDOXO]

Words can lose their meaning on a forum, i should have elaborated more, but i was full of rage so i didn't.

I don't understand what some fans really hope for, all this talk of passion and commitment seems gibberish, . these a pro footballers, signed up to us, do you really think they want to play like an amateur to unimpress everyone?

'hey Dave, remember that shit game you had? 'yeah man it was awsome, i played so bad i was a pure embarrassment and we lost terribly and it was totally all my fault', Yeah man you sucked, at this rate you'll be playing for Barca!

No identity and piss the fans off? how would you suggest a players gains an identity with the club and fans? I simply don't believe fight and passion are in question, its rather trying to calm them down and not get book - any idiot can get sent off, there your fight, down to 10 men. but well done, you showed that you were committed to breaking his legs, Icon.

The only fix is to win games, you could be the nicest bloke trying your best, but if you don't win or play well you wont be remembered, now everyone wants to be remembered positively, so i just don't get the lack of commitment and passion gripe, unless there are other concerns unbeknown to us.

Its up to you how you support the club and what you even condier support, per head fans have little impact on the game, unless you are at the the game, then you really have a duty of support

High sheriff, i like that.

You'll have to forgive me as I can't be assed to trawl back up and read the banter between you and the other guys.

I'm not unsympethetic to what I think you are trying to convey, however a couple of thoughts.

We have beaten Cardiff, Crystal Palace, Middlesborough 1st 3rd and 4th, Did we beat them because we were better on the day, or more committed, rode our luck or just plain lucky? Seeing as we scored 11 goals its a stretch to suggest luck I would say!!

It would seem, would it not, we are able to compete with sides of this calibre but are quite capable of shipping 4 goals by half time at home to Wolves or put in any amount of crap performances at home and until recently away. But as has been established and said by McInness himself we have the ability compete but just dont for the majority of games, do you not agree with Mr McInnes own assessment?

So would it follow that we are either doing something seriously wrong in training and/or the players find it hard to get up for the majority of games. Yes the fans play a part (although that relationship is symbiotic) the management and the players themselves have the responsibility to be prepared ready and to put it in at home and away every week!

How often have you honestly felt that was what was happening...If you think yes they look up ready and prepared and are getting hammered because they are just not good enough blame the man in charge, If they are getting outplayed because they are not ready to play for the shirt every week then blame the players...

Thoughts?

[Jordan Tansley]

I've waited and read through all the posts so far and I've got to say, it's very worrying how many different aspects of the club are currently letting people down.

I'm sure many people on here who notice my posts would say I'm usually vociferously behind the club in most arguments, the one over the last few days about the £4 refund an example. But this ill-feeling is not the makings of an over imaginative support base but a catalogue of errors from the club in its approach to the fans.

I don't usually have that many gripes with the club, I accept football for what it has become in my lifetime, those who saw the glory days of average Joe knocking a Hattrick in down the gate and seeing a few fans in the three lions later that evening will never be able to accept it, and not should they.

But, here are my main two complaints. Firstly, the quality of the media team was once something to be proud of, even in an era of GJ secrecy over every minor detail of the football team we still felt informed and important through beanhead, James Healey and the rest using the OS, World/Player and later twitter to keep us in the loop. Now, player is not worth the mega-bytes o Internet it eats up and our official site is ugly, horrendously written and drab. The twitter feed is not what it used to be having taken the personality of Beanhead out of it and we've gained idiots like Kev Smith and Jody Morris... I mean, I've got no issue with Kev going to Arsenal etc, but when he's in a professional position at my club reading his tweets make me doubt his commitment, integrity and intelligence. It serves no purpose than to piss people off. He can't even use the notion that his feed isn't designed for us as the self promotion through the " #bristolcitytwitterfamily " put him in the fans limelight.

In this day and age, the media team have a huge role to play in how a fan feels about his club. It's an easy way to get a message across, inform the masses. I always enjoy your replies, Dave, but it would be quite nice to have a few additional and occasional postings from other officials to show that they do care about the opinions of the fans...

Secondly, the east end. On Saturday P'Boro brought next to no fans and TWO whole blocks were left empty. The City fans should ALWAYS be behind that goal, let alone when the opposition hardly sold a ticket! I'm not saying the club should pander to the EE, and I have disagreed with many of their stances in the past and think there have been times when the EE movement has seemed petulant, but this club is lucky to have a group of fans like that who are so single minded in their attempts to breath life into the support and the club from the stands. The club should be backing this more than it does, small things like the flags on the pointless segregation add up to a disheartened support. That should never have been allowed to happen.

It does all feel a little too late now, the errors made have caused some seriously deep routes problems and the club really do have a fight to sort it out and make the fans genuinely feel wanted again. We do not want to feel like consumers, we want to feel a part of the bloody club.

[Aizoon]

Ace post! Now, will anyone at the club read, mark and inwardly digest?

[Jordan Tansley]

Ace post! Now, will anyone at the club read, mark and inwardly digest?

I actually think DL is a good man to have around for us. I trust that this is not an empty gesture and some of the issues raised on this topic will be addressed and worked on in the near future.

They don't really have a choice though, if we go down I can see our ST sales dropping to unimaginable lows.

[Bcfc-Chris]

Great thread, all the points I would have made have been made. Fair play for doing this DL, good on you mate.

[REDOXO]

I've waited and read through all the posts so far and I've got to say, it's very worrying how many different aspects of the club are currently letting people down.

I'm sure many people on here who notice my posts would say I'm usually vociferously behind the club in most arguments, the one over the last few days about the £4 refund an example. But this ill-feeling is not the makings of an over imaginative support base but a catalogue of errors from the club in its approach to the fans.

I don't usually have that many gripes with the club, I accept football for what it has become in my lifetime, those who saw the glory days of average Joe knocking a Hattrick in down the gate and seeing a few fans in the three lions later that evening will never be able to accept it, and not should they.

But, here are my main two complaints. Firstly, the quality of the media team was once something to be proud of, even in an era of GJ secrecy over every minor detail of the football team we still felt informed and important through beanhead, James Healey and the rest using the OS, World/Player and later twitter to keep us in the loop. Now, player is not worth the mega-bytes o Internet it eats up and our official site is ugly, horrendously written and drab. The twitter feed is not what it used to be having taken the personality of Beanhead out of it and we've gained idiots like Kev Smith and Jody Morris... I mean, I've got no issue with Kev going to Arsenal etc, but when he's in a professional position at my club reading his tweets make me doubt his commitment, integrity and intelligence. It serves no purpose than to piss people off. He can't even use the notion that his feed isn't designed for us as the self promotion through the " #bristolcitytwitterfamily " put him in the fans limelight.

In this day and age, the media team have a huge role to play in how a fan feels about his club. It's an easy way to get a message across, inform the masses. I always enjoy your replies, Dave, but it would be quite nice to have a few additional and occasional postings from other officials to show that they do care about the opinions of the fans...

Secondly, the east end. On Saturday P'Boro brought next to no fans and TWO whole blocks were left empty. The City fans should ALWAYS be behind that goal, let alone when the opposition hardly sold a ticket! I'm not saying the club should pander to the EE, and I have disagreed with many of their stances in the past and think there have been times when the EE movement has seemed petulant, but this club is lucky to have a group of fans like that who are so single minded in their attempts to breath life into the support and the club from the stands. The club should be backing this more than it does, small things like the flags on the pointless segregation add up to a disheartened support. That should never have been allowed to happen.

It does all feel a little too late now, the errors made have caused some seriously deep routes problems and the club really do have a fight to sort it out and make the fans genuinely feel wanted again. We do not want to feel like consumers, we want to feel a part of the bloody club.

Behind what? An error was made by the club or an employee, the club were informed as it was on here, they called DM to put up a post appologising, she did and the guy got his dosh back, he said thanks! In what way are you behind the club? The club made no arguement...You Did!

Is this why people find you so irritating? You might want to have a little more empathy with other supporters and littleless of whatever it is you think you do?

[Jordan Tansley]

Behind what? An error was made by the club or an employee, the club were informed as it was on here, they called DM to put up a post appologising, she did and the guy got his dosh back, he said thanks! In what way are you behind the club? The club made no arguement...You Did!

Is this why people find you so irritating? You might want to have a little more empathy with other supporters and littleless of whatever it is you think you do?

Empathy with those prone to over-react at everything? It's a conspiracy, the club did it on purpose in an attempt to con the fans. No such thing as individual error, it MUST be the clubs fault.

I defended the club in the face of a pile of unnecessary and now proven to be baseless attacks. There of course will not be an apology to the club from the faceless few like the club did to the supporter.