'gap Between Club And Fans As Wide As It's Ever Been'

[RedUn]

To me its not so much a case of a gap between the Club and its Fans as it is the gap between the Club and the level of football it aspires to. With various changes made behind the scenes academy and training ground wise in the last year or so. I'm happy that something is finally happening in that area (if not reflected in first team competence). However, it is the new stadium that is the vital missing ingredient ...

... there is also the nagging feeling for fan's of my generation (I'm 57) that the game as a whole (not so much the Club) has changed so much from the one that we fell in love with as kids that it gets more and more difficult to care about any of it anymore:

• At the global level FIFA is corrupt.
• At continental level UEFA is scarcely much better.
• And at the National level the FA are as myopic, reactionary and inconsistent as they have always been whilst the Premier League knows only greed, in thrall to Murdoch's TV money and its clubs an unregulated haven for money laundering.
• Finally there are the agents and other crooks who grow fat by doing nothing more than moving a large number of very ordinary players around their own version of a Monopoly board.

[Bowie]

Hi Dave,

I've mentioned this in other posts on here, but it's something I wanted to mention to you too. twitter

I recall Derek saying at end of last season that he had no problem with Twitter as long as players are sensible and use common sense.

Stead and Woolford are two examples are players who come under this category

Jody Morris on the other hand has repeated been posting rubbish on twitter during a match and he's understandable got abuse for it from a few people

Surely 'common sense' should involve not posting inane rubbish during a match, is it really difficult to implement a rule where players use common sense and are banned from using it during the 2 hours of which a match is on.

It's a minor thing, but understandably, where their is a match ongoing and you have non selected players posting rubbish on twitter, it obviously causes unrest for some especially in the current climate, As I said its not all players Stead & Wooly are perfect examples are being sensible and respectful to their employer and club fans.

Minor thing, but doesnt help

[pikeysrobins]

Hi Dave,

I've mentioned this in other posts on here, but it's something I wanted to mention to you too. twitter

I recall Derek saying at end of last season that he had no problem with Twitter as long as players are sensible and use common sense.

Stead and Woolford are two examples are players who come under this category

Jody Morris on the other hand has repeated been posting rubbish on twitter during a match and he's understandable got abuse for it from a few people

Surely 'common sense' should involve not posting inane rubbish during a match, is it really difficult to implement a rule where players use common sense and are banned from using it during the 2 hours of which a match is on.

It's a minor thing, but understandably, where their is a match ongoing and you have non selected players posting rubbish on twitter, it obviously causes unrest for some especially in the current climate, As I said its not all players Stead & Wooly are perfect examples are being sensible and respectful to their employer and club fans.

Minor thing, but doesnt help

Fully agree!! + 1

[bcfcnick]

The Club used to use the available media very well and by definition it has to be the main way the Club communicates and builds links with the fans. I'd recommend getting Adam to do a fair proportion of the interviews on player again. The Club was lucky to have fan friendly players and management and the interviews with Basso, Murray, Carey and players with personality who clearly cared about the Club helped avoid the them and us gap that may have developed between players and fans.

Gary Johnson reached out to fans and interviews with his brother on scouting efforts were also helpful in terms of good communication. Little features like that made a difference. The personnel were not faceless as they currently are. The Club also had a communicative Chairman before and that helped. Appointing a well meaning trappist monk as a Chairman when fans were used to a chairman being a communication figure head hasn't been helpful. Understandably Steve L's tax issues made him move away and there is nothing much the Club can do about that. The club has gone very 'corporate' and it needs to go back to having a human face and perhaps that will only come with success on the field and the Club improving communications. The current policy of not commenting on the stadium is understandable but it can lead to the impression that the Club is implying that where the team plays in the future holds is of no business to the fans who will of course be invited to fill any new venue.

The club promotes 'Player' and if the commentary repeatedly does not work for away games then someone should take responsibility for that. Steve L even used to come on the forum and answer questions. Things have moved on a long way since then but not for the better.

[thatcham red]

Great post Chris. Thanks for your thoughtful input and to everyone else who has taken the time and trouble to post their thoughts.

This thread has occupied much of my waking (and some sleeping) time over the last few days as I read and re-read all the responses and start to write my reply (it won't be a brief read, I warn you). I really do appreciate the variety of views and the depth of feeling that have been expressed, even those that have had a go at me. I shouldn't be doing this job if I'm not prepared to accept constructive criticism.

If we can achieve one thing, it will be to stop talk of 'The Club' and 'The Fans'. We are all part of the club, and together we must try and arrive at a situation where we cease to make that distinction. 'The Club' is all of us, players, staff and fans alike, and that's what we should be working to try and achieve. Hopefully this will be the first stage in that process.

Lock the thread if you feel it necessary, but I am more than happy for it to be kept open as long as people still feel they have something constructive to add. I'll just ignore the playground stuff.

Just a couple of things in advance of my reply. Kevin Smith and I will be getting the coach up to Blackburn on Saturday and watching the game from the away end. If anyone would like to meet for a chat either at the ground or at an away friendly pub, I'm more than happy to do that. I also plan to watch a game from the East End in the near future.

Happy New Year!

David

You will always be welcome in the East End, I know Kevin has already tried it.

Are you travelling on the supporters coaches? To get the full away day experience as a fan I suggest you both go through the process of buying your own tickets and paying hard earned cash for coach travel. When you have spent 8+ hours on a coach, been searched on entry to the ground, sat in the cold for a couple of hours, parted with the best part of £100 for an away day and very likely witnessed a below par performance on the pitch, you will have a pretty good idea of what is driving some of the opinions expressed on this thread. It could be a sobering experience.

Happy New year

Stu

[Dave L]

We are indeed travelling on one of the coaches, for the very reasons you describe. Something I've done many times before, but not for a while.

[TBW]

I haven't the time to read every reply in here as it's got to nine pages before I have noticed it (whoops), anyway I may mention things other people have mentioned already but I'll go ahead and give my input too.

The basic problem in my opinion is that the club is faceless and passionless right now. I couldn't tell you our chairman's name right now if you asked me, instead I would have to quietly get my phone out under the table and tap it into Wikipedia to find out. The fans have no interaction with the chairman like in the past, Lansdown would have the Q&A sessions and try and engage and explain the directions he sees the club heading. It's changed twice in two seasons now, Sexton dropped quickly and now we've got this new guy who no-one knows anything about, no-one knows what he does behind the scene or anything - Wait, I think I got his name in the back of my mind; is it Keith... something? I'm actually going to look on Wikipedia - Shit, I was right; Keith Dawe.

In regard to the same subject, McInnes doesn't seem to have the passion we're used to and expecting since Gary Johnson. Yes, he wants to do well. He wants to be a success, anyone/everyone does but he never really sounds too bothered. Gary Johnson has personality and drive, he'd always have time for fans and stood out. He was the face of the club, everyone knew who our manager was. Just like when teams have a Warnock or a Holloway for example.

The players have the same problem. This #bristolcitytwitterfamily thing needs to stop and Jody Morris needs to stop. If Bristol City players use Twitter, make it private! Yes this puts a little divide in place but I don't want to see how Jody Morris is more worried about how Chelsea are doing over how Bristol City are doing. There is no face for the club right now, it doesn't seem like there is a genuine leader who really cares which way this club is heading. All the players go out, pick up their packages and know that if it doesn't work out they'll just move on. It doesn't matter if Bristol City go down, Bristol City don't mean anything to them personally. We need a Scott Murray in the dressing room, as part of the team, part of the training. The more local youngsters we can get through into the first team the better. Some of these players will be fans of the club, they'll play as Bristol City on Football Manager and FIFA over a Manchester United, Liverpool or Chelsea. They'll want to imagine this club at the very top. Blood these players into the team, make them care. Bring some passion over.

The last point may be rubbish though - There was a recent topic about there being no ballboys at a recent game and this being because the ballboys are now kids in the young youth teams to give them matchday experience and them no wanting to do the job. Why? If they want to play for the club, they want to pursue a career in football why aren't they doing everything possible to make that happen? If I was in their position I'd want to do everything I could to stand out, to show how much I wanted to be there, show no complacency. If they don't want to be ballboys, get the young fans in to do it. I did it when I was a kid for two games and loved it. I loved being that close to the action and felt like part of the club for a brief time. Those kids will have memories forever. Don't use the same group of kids for every game, give each one a three-six game limit then switch and let someone new take their place. The amount that will grow up with that memory and have that bit more love for the club, bring their kids in the future and maybe they'll get the chance to do it too! Little things like that make a big difference, I did it over ten years ago and still look back at those two I did it for as amazing.

I've got more but should probably stop for a bit.

[Nogbad the Bad]

OK, most of my points covered already, but some further points about stewards and the general welcome fans receive at Ashton Gate.

I sometimes take non STH family with me to the Gate. More than once these occasional fans have remarked how uncomfortable and intimidating they find it being glared at by stewards throughout the match, and why is it necessary? I can't give them an explanation especially as I understand we are all being watched by CCTV throughout the match and any misdemeanours will be quickly spotted. But you might like to know that potential regular fans are actually put off attending AG by this unfamiliar - for them - routine of being glowered at constantly by stewards.

I seem to remember when stewards were first introduced in large numbers they were City fans and their job was to welcome fans, point out their seats etc. and they were fan friendly - this does not always seem to be the case any longer. When was it deemed necessary for this atitude to change, and why do some now seem to be actively looking to get fans' backs up at the slightest opportunity? Are the majority of stewards these days Bristol City supporters who would therefore have some empathy with the fans? If they are not, why not?

East End: I have been an advocate for many years on here that the block directly behind the East End goal should be occupied by BCFC fans. It should never be given over to away fans except as a very last resort ( Cup game where perhaps allocation leaves no choice). Why would we ever give them this prominence and the opportunity to berate the City keeper while fanatical home fans are given lesser seats? The area directly behind the goal was always the area for City's most vociferous fans, and so it should be now.

Younger fans: Looking around me at AG there seem to be fewer younger fans than I can ever remember. When I first started watching City there were youngsters lining the front of every stand who got there early to make sure they/we could get a position at the front. I wonder what the average age of STH's is these days because looking around me we seem to have a rapidly ageing fan base with a large percentage aged 40+. What is the club actively doing to encourage young supporters of the future?

I've said many times on here that I would put aside a block ( Upper Williams?) of, say 500, pay on the day tickets, priced at £3-£5 for u.16's. Yes, that's right, get there early, queue up with your pals and pay on the day - first 500 get in. And I don't mean accompanied by parents or teachers, many of us found AG with groups of likeminded pals rather than through parental influence, in fact being away from them with our friends in a completely different environment was probably part of the attraction of going to a match. Some parents don't want to go anyway so as things stand their children will never be taken and will 'support' PL teams from afar. Yes, there would have to be a code of behaviour but I'm certain this would be a hit with younger fans, an area of their own where they could let themselves go and shout themselves hoarse amongst likeminded enthusiastic youngsters. Their own little 'end' from which they could gradually filter out in to the rest of the ground as they got older, and of course, now addicted to BCFC and AG.

How many u.16's attend City matches on average these days? With all the empty seats the club should be looking to attract literally thousands to ensure the club's future. For them it must be affordable and FUN - I don't mean face painting and a chaperoned experience - and imo the club could be doing much more to actively encourage them to be involved in supporting their local team by doing something completely different as above.

[gazareth]

I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said already, but I'll reiterate a couple of points:

Leadership - the club lacks a prominent personality at its helm and this appears to be affecting all aspects of the club, right down to the first team on the pitch.

Communication - there are so many things that are just not communicated - the new stadium fiasco being one of them. The new website compounds this by being so awful that I often just avoid using it now and rely on the club's Twitter feed for news. 140 character soundbites are not an appropriate way to build a bond with supporters.

[Akira]

My main reason why i feel like i've fallen out of touch with the club is prices, players and the EE.

Prices are way too high, and every season i ask myself "i wonder how much they'll put tickets up this year?". £25 POTD is insane, especially to watch the crap that gets served up at the gate. Especially when you walk out of the Atyeo at FT, having lost a game, only to be faced with £100,000's worth of motors sat there. Kinda rubs it in your face a little.

The EE - been covered to death, but i feel it needs to, to show how strongly us, the fans, feel about it. Over the past 5 years or so, people like Cider Head and others have put in god knows how many hours/£'s etc, all for the love of the club and the EE, trying to bring back an atmosphere that cannot be rivaled in this division. The club should be praising these people, and supporting them in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT. You want your twelfth man? well here it is. You need the fans to push you that extra 10%? Well here it is. Yet for some reason, the club aren't backing them. Instead they're going against them, and it stinks in my opinion.

No other business gets people putting in hours upon hours worth of work, for free, trying to help the 'business' out. Putting in their hard earned, to make this 'business' the best. Yet the club throw it back in the fans faces. You can't have flags, you can't be behind the goal, you can't do this, that and the other etc etc. Don't even play the H+S card, because we all know it's bull.

I really like the idea that Nogbad has put across. I've been thinking of something along those lines ever since we had the GWR "family stand". The cost of tickets, despite our slogan of being the 'cheapest in the league' is still extortionate. Last season we saw how much better AG can be when we have more bums on seats. Next season, i'd love it if ALL tickets took a 25/30% reduction. More people down the gate, potentially more fans to be hooked, and also more revenue via other channels, club shop, catering etc etc. Not only that, a better atmosphere potentially all round.

We need to get more fans in, students and u-16's. These are the one's that will come back if it's cheap enough.

On a side note, can i just say the jump in cost from a u-16 to the full on adult ST is a joke. How on earth is a 17 year old expected to be able to cough up that sort of money?! It's bad enough trying to pay it in your mid twenties and being in full time employment!

However i can't see it happening because of the cost of players etc, but that's where we've gone wrong. We are constantly being dictated by the players, whether they know it or not. Maynard saga last year, he weld all the power over us. Same with players wages in general, we probably won't be able to better our club by bringing in more fans with the ticket reduction because the player wages are far too high.

Now you have to look at why are we paying these sorts of figures for extremely average league 1 players? Management, the board, scouts etc. From the top down, for the past few years, the board has seemed to lost the plot, and one of my biggest gripes is that i couldn't even point out who these board members are anymore. I remember when SL came over into the Atyeo block H one game, to meet and greet the more vocal fans at the time. You could spot him a mile away, always smiling, happy to chat with anyone.

However, now SL and CS have gone, so has our entire identity with the board. SL and CS were of course the face of the board, there are many other members, but they transmitted the message, they engaged the fans, and that was all we wanted. We wanted to know what was going on with our club, and to almost just be reassured that someone at the club is looking after it, and trying to always do best for it, and point it in the right direction.

I don't get that feeling anymore. I know of some of the board members names, but have no idea what they look like. The communication from the board the past year or so has been dire, especially with this 'new' chairman.

We're not exactly in the greatest shape when it comes to the league, and after such an extremely poor run, it's essential that someone from high up tries to steady the ship (something that should of been done months ago!)

All you have to do is look at this forum (and this thread), fans are not happy one bit,

The stewards down AG has got worse and worse over the past couple of seasons. I'm not a STH myself, not anymore. It's far too expensive nowadays. But the pay on the day games that i do go to, sadly it's now always the same.

I get stern looks on my way into the ground, whether it be dolman or EE, sometimes patted down without any P's & Q's and inside the ground is exactly the same.

Sorry if i'm repeating what's already been said, but thought i'd add my bit.

[semblar]

On a side note, can i just say the jump in cost from a u-16 to the full on adult ST is a joke. How on earth is a 17 year old expected to be able to cough up that sort of money?! It's bad enough trying to pay it in your mid twenties and being in full time employment!

To pick up on this point in particular (and still a side issue to the main thread I'm afraid) - very soon the compulsory school leaving age will rise to 18. In light of this, will the club be considering an equivalent increase to the age cut-off? I fully understand that the student price was abused by some (I chose not to ask for one even though I had a NUS card doing professional exams while in my mid thirties) - but the case for trying to keep the youngsters on board over the transition into adulthood has to be a strong one surely?

For the record it won't personally affect me for at least a decade (my eldest is six...)

[Rich i e]

Great thread, but I can't help thinking that the 'gap' of course becomes wider when a team struggles on the pitch for a period of time (that's us!) not sure what a supporters liasion officer is supposed to do about that!

So if we were now mid-table, see the club win every so often at home - or top the league winning every game, would the..

1) Pies be too expensive - Yes

2) Players be overpaid - Yes

3) Chairman be too quiet - Probably

4) Ticket office be closed for a call centre - Yes

5) Occasional grumpy steward - Probably

6) Players playing up on Twitter - Probably

7) New Stadium held up in courts - Yes

8) Major shareholder moves to Channel islands - Yes

....but would we care so much - well no hardly at all because we are seeing a decent team - all those things above would still be/ and could all be going on if we were top of the league. The team could still be a success with all of the above going on.

Now the argument on is Del the right man, are the players trying etc etc are all valid obvious ones but again the clubs liasion officer is hardly going to make any ground breaking statements to the board of directors on his report by saying ' men, the supporters are getting a bit fidgity about the results', as we sit on the bottom of the league!

So Dave, Happy New Year, good luck - pray for some good signings in January!

[paulcitymod]

Great post Chris. Thanks for your thoughtful input and to everyone else who has taken the time and trouble to post their thoughts.

This thread has occupied much of my waking (and some sleeping) time over the last few days as I read and re-read all the responses and start to write my reply (it won't be a brief read, I warn you). I really do appreciate the variety of views and the depth of feeling that have been expressed, even those that have had a go at me. I shouldn't be doing this job if I'm not prepared to accept constructive criticism.

If we can achieve one thing, it will be to stop talk of 'The Club' and 'The Fans'. We are all part of the club, and together we must try and arrive at a situation where we cease to make that distinction. 'The Club' is all of us, players, staff and fans alike, and that's what we should be working to try and achieve. Hopefully this will be the first stage in that process.

Lock the thread if you feel it necessary, but I am more than happy for it to be kept open as long as people still feel they have something constructive to add. I'll just ignore the playground stuff.

Just a couple of things in advance of my reply. Kevin Smith and I will be getting the coach up to Blackburn on Saturday and watching the game from the away end. If anyone would like to meet for a chat either at the ground or at an away friendly pub, I'm more than happy to do that. I also plan to watch a game from the East End in the near future.

Happy New Year!

Dave

I sincerely you print this whole thread off and sit own with people who will actually do something about it, and go through each post thoroughly. A lot of people have come out of the woodwork and bared their souls, many for the one and only time they might ever do so. Its been given to the club on a plate how to turn this club into a thriving place that can really compete at the top level. Its all been done for you. Do it

[Club and Country]

Someone made a point about amount off younger fans

Must say this is something my old man has noticed, ground is full off middle aged blokes who only go for a beer and out of habit to get away from the Missus (no offence at all to these people, I'm one off them and I'm only 25!)

Very few younger fans around the gate although I'm sure the club will chuck some stat at me telling me I'm wrong

[BS34Red]

We are indeed travelling on one of the coaches, for the very reasons you describe. Something I've done many times before, but not for a while.

But are we to assume that it is BCFC paying for your day out just so it looks like you are making an effort with fans? I personally don't care if you attend or not, I just think it would be a kick in the teeth to the fans you are sat next to that they have paid and you havn't.

My main gripe with the club is things like this, Its like you are attending in the away end and going by coach because the club have told you to do it because you must be seen to engage with fans. When will this club learn us fans are not stupid, we dont want you to change something or do something because you think that's what the fans want and if we want to keep them pouring money into the club we have to make an effort, we want you to change things or do something because you want to out of the goodness of your hearts and because you want your fellow fans to enjoy the matchday experience.

Forget about making money etc etc, Get the basics right, treat fans like humans and then the rest will just follow. Simple.

[BS34Red]

Someone made a point about amount off younger fans

Must say this is something my old man has noticed, ground is full off middle aged blokes who only go for a beer and out of habit to get away from the Missus (no offence at all to these people, I'm one off them and I'm only 25!)

Very few younger fans around the gate although I'm sure the club will chuck some stat at me telling me I'm wrong

I think the club would do very well by introducing a under 11s ticket for all home games apart from the big ones where an under 11 can get in for a quid or two. The club are missing a massive trick with that age range. I have two children under 11, they would love to go to games but I simply refuse to pay the prices because kids being kids they may ask me to take them home at half time. Anyone with young child will know they can be demanding so there is profits to be made out of the parents by food, drinks, merchindice etc. How about included in the ticket price for a child they get a lucky bag with.some colouring pencils and pictures of bcfc to colour in, some sweets and a programe designed for the little uns. They see the world differently to what we do, if the club could interact with the younger fans then they will be hooked for life. The club need to be far more imaginative in its approach.

[SecretSam]

The problem with our leadership is that we have a faceless man in charge, but everyone believes that the ship is still being run by SL. I agree with other comments, I have no idea what our Chairman, chief exec, etc look like. I knew what all his predecessors looked like, right back to Kew et al.

I don't care if he's not a 'people' person, it's a 'people' business and he needs to get over himself and get a bit more out there. Rightly or wrongly, people associate distant leaders with having something to hide/not knowing what they're doing.

Mind you, if he pops his head out from behind the wall and turns out to be as clueless as that dipshit at the BBC who didn't know what was being said in the papers ABOUT HIM then that may prove to be a negative move.

Source: I work with/advise Executive-level people all the time.

[Jordan Tansley]

But are we to assume that it is BCFC paying for your day out just so it looks like you are making an effort with fans? I personally don't care if you attend or not, I just think it would be a kick in the teeth to the fans you are sat next to that they have paid and you havn't.

My main gripe with the club is things like this, Its like you are attending in the away end and going by coach because the club have told you to do it because you must be seen to engage with fans. When will this club learn us fans are not stupid, we dont want you to change something or do something because you think that's what the fans want and if we want to keep them pouring money into the club we have to make an effort, we want you to change things or do something because you want to out of the goodness of your hearts and because you want your fellow fans to enjoy the matchday experience.

Forget about making money etc etc, Get the basics right, treat fans like humans and then the rest will just follow. Simple.

Jesus H Christ. You're really getting that wound up over the possibility the club will allow two employees to use its services for free?

I think I should hand my discount card back at work because its soooo unfair for me to get things cheaper than joe blogs simply because I work there.

There have been some seriously good posts about the problems at this club, but this takes the biscuit.

[BS34Red]

Jesus H Christ. You're really getting that wound up over the possibility the club will allow two employees to use its services for free?

I think I should hand my discount card back at work because its soooo unfair for me to get things cheaper than joe blogs simply because I work there.

There have been some seriously good posts about the problems at this club, but this takes the biscuit.

Does your company post record year on year losses? I'm sure if they were the 1st thing to go would be your discount! In times like this then every penny spent by the club should be questioned.

Put it this way if I owned a bar and was losing mega money each year I wouldn't be giving my staff free drinks.

[Dolman Block B]

Last comment from me Dave

In Benidorm tonight

Met up with a die hard BCFC season ticket holders tonight who will not renew next season on behalf of the shite we have had to put up with this and the previous

Pass that on please

[phantom]

Jesus H Christ. You're really getting that wound up over the possibility the club will allow two employees to use its services for free?

I think I should hand my discount card back at work because its soooo unfair for me to get things cheaper than joe blogs simply because I work there.

There have been some seriously good posts about the problems at this club, but this takes the biscuit.

You've done it again !!!!

This is not the topic to respond to things you don't agree with

MODS can someone go through and delete ALL the posts not with anything that Dave can use, yes that includes this one too

[phantom]

I know that I'm contradicting my previous post, but this topic has still not yet been created on the Ciderheads forum.

[Aizoon]

I think the club would do very well by introducing a under 11s ticket for all home games apart from the big ones where an under 11 can get in for a quid or two. The club are missing a massive trick with that age range. I have two children under 11, they would love to go to games but I simply refuse to pay the prices because kids being kids they may ask me to take them home at half time. Anyone with young child will know they can be demanding so there is profits to be made out of the parents by food, drinks, merchindice etc. How about included in the ticket price for a child they get a lucky bag with.some colouring pencils and pictures of bcfc to colour in, some sweets and a programe designed for the little uns. They see the world differently to what we do, if the club could interact with the younger fans then they will be hooked for life. The club need to be far more imaginative in its approach.

The stewards would probably confiscate the pencils on "Health and Safety" grounds

[Tom]

The problem with our leadership is that we have a faceless man in charge, but everyone believes that the ship is still being run by SL. I agree with other comments, I have no idea what our Chairman, chief exec, etc look like. I knew what all his predecessors looked like, right back to Kew et al.

I don't care if he's not a 'people' person, it's a 'people' business and he needs to get over himself and get a bit more out there. Rightly or wrongly, people associate distant leaders with having something to hide/not knowing what they're doing.

Mind you, if he pops his head out from behind the wall and turns out to be as clueless as that dipshit at the BBC who didn't know what was being said in the papers ABOUT HIM then that may prove to be a negative move.

Source: I work with/advise Executive-level people all the time.

This is exactly right.

To get slightly academic (sorry) for a second. The current situation links can be explained perfectly with reference to Freud's theories of group psychology (http://www.bartleby.com/290/). Both in terms of our primary leaders and their subordinate leader.

Basically Freud argues that groups exist with leaders and without leaders, but the most cohesive and effective groups have effective leaders. (hardly rocket science admittedly)

And I quote:

"A hint to the same effect, that the essence of a group lies in the libidinal ties existing in it, is also to be found in the phenomenon of panic, which is best studied in military groups. A panic arises if a group of that kind becomes disintegrated. Its characteristics are that none of the orders given by superiors are any longer listened to, and that each individual is only solicitous on his own account, and without any consideration for the rest."

"The loss of the leader in some sense or other, the birth of misgivings about him, brings on the outbreak of panic, though the danger remains the same; the mutual ties between the members of the group disappear, as a rule, at the same time as the tie with their leader. The group vanishes in dust, like a Bologna flask when its top is broken off."

[Robin101]

Hi. Agree with a lot of this. One quite specific thing I'd like to add.

Can we please nake this club a symbol and icon of Bristol AND the Westcountry? We're the biggest club in the West, but we could be so much bigger. As a 17 year old living in Somerset, I can tell you there are more Newcastle fans than City fans at my Sixth form, let alone more Man U or Liverpool fans. I get that this is a symptom of modern football, but we could at least be trying to change it. We used to; I must have been about 10 when Leroy Lita presented all the local junior football team players with medals. But one year City just didn't send a player, and never have since. It's such a small thing for the club to do but it genuinely means so much for 10 year olds to get an autograph off somebody who they haven't actually heard of! Seriously. I know that we are Bristol City FC, but, hey, where do you think that cider comes from?!

Also, if you were in the city centre, you'd be forgiven for having no idea the football club even existed. A club shop is quite a big ask, and I used to think it was only the major teams that had them in the centre, but Brighton have one? I'm sure other champuosngip teams do too.

[pikeysrobins]

Hi

Has Dave come back to us yet other than his initial response?

BTW Wouldn't it be great for the club to do one of those surveys asking the supporters about their current feelings regarding the club? I think the club would be far too scared of the results!! A real fan's club would be doing this! I remember a survey being done a few times when the club was much more of a family club than a failing business!!

[beijing red]

We are indeed travelling on one of the coaches, for the very reasons you describe. Something I've done many times before, but not for a while.

Dave,

Why not try to get a couple of (not required on the day) squad players to come along with you?

I doubt if any of them are aware of what the away fan has to go through. Perhaps they might convey what it's really like back to their team-mates.

I know this probably won't happen, but it would certainly make the players appreciate what the Clubs fans have to go through.

You are aware....but are the players?? I doubt it.

[RedM]

I said previously on this thread that the same concerns have come up over and over so there must be some substance in them. That is still true but I've been thinking about this.

On their own some points look a bit minor when you see them in black and white, but people are right, you have to experience them to get the full picture. Being held in a queue on the phone for tickets only to be cut off is frustrating if it happens once, but again and again? Wading through toilets which are awash with water, cold with no hot water or soap. If the club want to think of me as a paying customer I want to be treated like one.

We have put up with poor facilities for years, this isn't a recent thing.But maybe the 'paying customers' are fed up when we don't see progress on or off the field. We don't expect miracles, we are Bristol City fans after all but when you constantly see other teams improving their facilities or team, sometimes both we need a glimmer of hope now and again.

The manager or Chairman haven't got the personalities of our previous holders of the posts. Fine if they were doing a great job people would overlook that. I think it's hard to be a Manager without a certain amount of 'people skills' though, afterall he has to communicate with his players doesn't he? I'm not against Del, I'm really not, but like many others feel that the future of our club might be in someone elses hands. Have I got faith in the board to chose wisely, what real choice have we got but to back their judgement? In almost every other thing I can think of you can have a choice, from the shops you buy from to the schools you send your children, but supporting a football club is unique. But it doesn't feel exclusive in a good way at the moment.

So is the gap wider than it has ever been, yes, because the club has made it feel that way, sadly.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

A few more thoughts. I'd like to see the club state it's purpose and goals and strategy clearly, not wishy washy buzz words, but things that supporters will be able to see, get involved in, get behind and measure. Think it's preferable that these do not involve on field outcomes ("in the premier league within 5 years", "win the champions league by 2022", "destroy Sneyd Park home and away in the Norman Hardy cup" etc). These are outcomes that we can't (fully) control - anyone who's had the joy of working in a big company will have heard "we want 17% market share by 2015", but if you added up all the market share targets of the industry, you can bet your bottom dollar they'd tot up to a lot more than 100%; but it's zero sum game, someone will be disappointed. There's only 20 teams in the Premier League, so again lots of disappointment if more than 20 say they'll be there - this isn't to say we shouldn't want to play at the highest level, win every game etc, simply that it's not within our control.

If a City team gives their all and cares about the outcome of games (whatever that may be), I think they would be fairly well aligned to the supporters perspective. Add in a dash of humility, a willingness to mix with supporters and we're getting there. A willingness to try play half decent football and we're really getting there!

If the club also showed similar ambition - prioritising home supporters (respect for East Enders (and everyone else), pressing council/Police (assume it must be them) to have smaller neutral areas between home/away fans (Rangers:Celtic anyone?!?), push hard for safe standing, try and avoid outsourcing to (apparently, can't claim personal experience) awful companies (catering and stewarding) who have no empathy with what a football club and its supporters are about, try and employ City supporters where possible (surely good business sense as likely to be more enthusiastic than most?) - we're really getting there. Not overstate how tremendously complicated the roles at the club are - a lot are simply about helping supporters and communicating with them (as at most organisations), give me an unqualified City supporter over a non City supporter with a dazzling array of marketing qualifications any day.

In the short term, clearly supporters will be relatively hopping mad about on field results, but the club also needs to focus on things that are agnostic to results on the field (those mentioned above are examples I think).

When results are going well it's easier to stomach other things that are far from great.

Equally, when some of the issues above are resolved, it's easier to stomach poor results on the field (which we can never fully control given that 'ol devil called the opposition)

Glenn Humphries is a reasonable example of what I'm getting at. Was he the most talented centre back in history? No. Did he play in the most successful City team ever? No. Did he get stuck in/care/give a S%$t? Yes. Did the fans love him? Yes (at least that's my recollection!)

Things that are within our control are clearly easier to fix, there's plenty of them and if the club fixed them we might not be any more successful on the pitch, but I'm pretty sure we'd all be feeling a lot more enthusiastic about the club we love.

Thanks

P.s. if nothing else, this thread is very cathartic.

[swampy]

What is lacking is a player like Jim Rollo who has just moved onto Chippenham Town after 476 appearances at Bath City. His debut at Hardenhuish Park on New Year's Day saw some of the City faithful turn up due their game versus Weston being postponed. Rollo looked across the pitch and saw the fans and I loved his comment "I knew almost all of them by name". I am not a Chippenham or Bath fan but just know what this is all about. That is one thing that is missing ..

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/good-things-come-end-says-departing-Bath-City/story-17747997-detail/story.html