Disturbing Culture - Simple Question?

[PFree]

It seems that it's the norm now for fans to start getting on the back ot targeted players, long gone are the general moans, it seems that through ironic cheering and celebrations when players are substituted, fans have taken it to the next stage in an attempt to destroy the chosen scape-goat?

 

Whilst being a ST at The Gate, I watch a fair amount of football and it's creeping in,at grounds where historically it hasn't happened before, I even witnessed it at Newcastle recently and I've been watching football there for many years without incident.

 

The fans at AG seem to have mastered it though and here it isn't a recent thing, it's happened for a number of years and it takes me back to when I think it was Ian Baird who after a poor game flashed his v's to the fans when suffering ironic cheers upon substitution. 

 

What's sad is that I now hear young kids around me in the stand coming out with the same quick criticism when a player does something wrong - how sad is that that it's already part of their bred DNA?

 

I am as frustrated as everybody but feel we can choose to add motivational value rather than makes matter worse, if you are disgruntled why not just stay quiet rather than damage matters yet further - so, simple question - what good is it ever going to do a player to suffer cat calls and ironic cheers - how on earth are they ever going to want to look forwward to playing at AG and to want the ball more when so called fans are baying for blood - might this help to explain why players seems to perform elsewhere but lose all confidence when at The Gate?

 

Thoughts..?

[Barrs Court Red]

Thoughts? Far too many have been robbing a living for far to long.

[fka dagest]

Very well said PFree.  I really couldn't agree more.  I'm sick of it.  A large portion of our fan base seem to be actively seeking out players to demonise (particularly on here).

 

I actually read on here the other day that someone was fed up that they couldn't slag off Bobby Reid because he's local.  I mean wtf?

 

'Support' is a very simple word in meaning.  Unfortunately it seems to have been long abandoned by many of our supporters.

 

Maybe we really do end up with the club we deserve.

[Slacker]

For me the point is that if supporters get on the backs of these players are the players given an incentive to do (even?) less in regards to effort on the pitch?Given where we are perhaps haranguing our own players may be shooting ourselves in the foot if they look at the crowd and think "why bother pulling up trees for this lot?".I know it's their job,but it is just that,a job.They are payed regardless of effort.

[Bedminster Born And Red]

For me the point is that if supporters get on the backs of these players are the players given an incentive to do (even?) less in regards to effort on the pitch?Given where we are perhaps haranguing our own players may be shooting ourselves in the foot if they look at the crowd and think "why bother pulling up trees for this lot?".I know it's their job,but it is just that,a job.They are payed regardless of effort.

Most players don't really give a monkeys what the fans think because they see them as knowing nothing about the game anyway. Regardless of the rubbish going on in the crowd there is literally NO EXCUSE for not "pulling up trees" as you put it.

 

Footballers are lucky to have a "job" that cannot be beaten and you would hope that there would be a degree of personal pride in trying to put in a performance every week. But what they need to realise is the profession is dog eat dog and there are plenty of players who would love to be in the shoes of Aiden Flint for example - by treating it as "just a job" you can find yourself working on a building site and playing in the Conference South before you know it. Any player who throws in the towel because the crowd dont like him is too weak mentally to be playing for a club in our predicament.

[Slacker]

I completely agree with you,but how many times have we seen players at this and other clubs,just going through the motions,maybe on the bench or in the reserves,and when their contract is up or they get paid off end up at another club in the same or sometimes higher division?

[PFree]

I completely agree with you,but how many times have we seen players at this and other clubs,just going through the motions,maybe on the bench or in the reserves,and when their contract is up or they get paid off end up at another club in the same or sometimes higher division?

 

I guess that's when you find out if you have a capable and competent manager, from what I can see of SC, he talks like a fan and seems to be passionate, personally, I believe he would deal with a lack of effort?

[Major Isewater]

The problem globally is a lack of respect for others in our society.

Politicians,teachers,police...etc are all subject to ridicule and devalorisation ,sometimes merited ,more often not.

Respect should be earned but disrespect should be moderated as abusing another human being degrades the abuser.

Call me a 'hippy ' If you wish but a little more love and under standing of our fellow man could make our lives sooooo much better all round

As Lennon and Mc Cartney wrote "all you need is love" and they are n't wrong .

[Aizoon]

You're a hippy - but you're right.

[Robbored]

Bottom line is that we as supporters part with our hard earned cash to turn up at AG to watch our team play and when things are going well on the pitch everyone is happy. VFM if you like.

Criticism of individual players tends only to happen when the team is struggling and City have been struggling for 3 seasons now. Fans are frustrated and pissed off with the repeated crap being served up on the pitch. Consequently they pick on a scapegoat and lambast him for every error or poor pass, which in some cases has a very destructive effect on the individual player. Fontaine is the perfect example, his confidence is shot to pieces and truth is that at his best he's a decent player. Hopefully Flint and El Abd will handle it differently.

It's understandable why it happens but ultimately does far more harm than fans realise.

[Bedminster Born And Red]

Criticism of individuals has always happened in football and unfortunately players have to man up so to speak and develop a thick enough skin to deal with it. Even top players like Carragher have had it at clubs like Liverpool but being top professionals they just get on with the job in hand whether to the fans taste or otherwise.

 

 

It's also down to the Manager to see when players are struggling and take them out of the firing line. Flint and El Abd cannot do a thing right at the moment and I cannot for the life of me see why, if Cotterill is adamant that we have to go with a "back three" that the players selected aren't Williams, Fontaine and Carey. Fontaine has done ok in a couple of games since coming back from loan and both Carey and Williams are comfortable defending in wide areas which is a basic part of playing a back three. Flint is shot to pieces and should be rested for his own good and El Abd looks like a fish out of water whenever he has to defend in wide areas.

 

 

Either that or just play a straight 442 with proper full backs and stick El Abd and Williams in the middle.

[Lack of Action Man]

We'e simply had too many crap players for too long. Players who were sold to us through press conferences and rumours to be "one for the future", a "real work horse" or "that extra bit of quality we needed" when actually they've all turned out to be the exact opposite! Think to be honest many City fans are just fed up with our appauling dealings in the transfer market.

[Sixtyseconds]

Happens everywhere. No player now gets the treatment that Gary Emmanuel, Gloria McGarvey and Russell Osman got.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I would say what is far more disturbing IMO, is the pantomimesque mistakes being made by people masquerading as professional footballers in our past 6 games and beyond, if you actually need evidence just watch the first Coventry goal, a throw in the opponents half to a player who calls for the ball but is quickly closed down by an opponent, who quickly unloads to a static wideman, who is beaten to the ball by an opponent who actually moves and passes to a colleague who is then is then faced by a defender retreating faster and further than an italian soldier in WW2, it is beyond pathetic, I would suspect that even Jordan Tansley would berate his 8 year olds for similar mistakes, the first 2 Brentford goals are up there as well and just look through this seasons lowlights and week in week out you will find similar unprofessional pathetic defending and midfield play.

 

As this sort of of dross has been occurring under 4 successive managers now, you have wonder about the coaching or the quality of players being signed.

[PFree]

I would say what is far more disturbing IMO, is the pantomimesque mistakes being made by people masquerading as professional footballers in our past 6 games and beyond, if you actually need evidence just watch the first Coventry goal, a throw in the opponents half to a player who calls for the ball but is quickly closed down by an opponent, who quickly unloads to a static wideman, who is beaten to the ball by an opponent who actually moves and passes to a colleague who is then is then faced by a defender retreating faster and further than an italian soldier in WW2, it is beyond pathetic, I would suspect that even Jordan Tansley would berate his 8 year olds for similar mistakes, the first 2 Brentford goals are up there as well and just look through this seasons lowlights and week in week out you will find similar unprofessional pathetic defending and midfield play.

 

As this sort of of dross has been occurring under 4 successive managers now, you have wonder about the coaching or the quality of players being signed.

Back to the original question though, does making a scapegoat add any value other than making some fans feel happier once they've had a personal moan?

[Daniro]

Back to the original question though, does making a scapegoat add any value other than making some fans feel happier once they've had a personal moan?

Back to the original question though, does making a scapegoat add any value other than making some fans feel happier once they've had a personal moan?

Thanks to Mr Lansdown we are one of the best backed teams financially outside the Prem and yet for the last five years have been in serious and seemingly terminal decline.

Of course we look for something or someone to blame, it's human nature. The Board, the chairman, the owner, the (six) managers, the players, the fans?

What is the cause? That's what we need to know. We've all got our pet theories. What we have is a club of highly paid staff, coaching and playing, delivering neither success or entertainment at the moment.

Of course making scapegoats doesn't "add value" as you put it. But producing carpy, losing football doesn't deliver value to paying fans and it seems unfair to expect people to go on "supporting" without complaining.

[RodViler]

I think the OP raises an important point. What actually is support? I too find it disturbing how some of our supporters get off on booing and shouting down players. This can't be helpful to improving player performances. Football is a frustrating game and the best physical and technical preparation can be undone by the opposition. This also makes football fascinating and thrilling, regardless of the result. It also raises the question if those who boo and scapegoat players actually understand the many intricacies of football, and wonder if they attend football grounds only to vent their spleen with anger that goes beyond football.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Back to the original question though, does making a scapegoat add any value other than making some fans feel happier once they've had a personal moan?

 

Mate I have going to games for over 55 years, it's always been the same, I read in a book about BCFC that a player in the early 50's likened playing on the wing in front of the old popular stand (replaced by the Dolman) as trial by lynch mob or something similar. IMO the big difference now is the amount of money these guys earn even at our lowly level and unfortunately the players are not shy from flaunting it, most of them are mercenaries who rarely show any loyalty if a better offer comes along even Louis fell for that one.

 

I would say looking at the highlights of the past 5 or 6 games picking a single scapegoat must be impossible quite often there are so many candidates and sadly some of the candidates for some bizarre reason seem totally incapable of performing the even simplest of skills associated with their job description, which lest we not forget is professional footballer.

 

Does it help? probably not, do I have sympathy for them absolutely not, SOD didn't say much I agreed with but when asked about what he would say to Flint after another howler at Port Vale I believe was 'i'll tell him not to do it again', most of this squad are grown men and all of them are old enough to die for their country, they really need to step up to the mark and perform as men/professional footballers because that has happened far too little in the past 5 years.

 

What I find particularly strange is it seems to be ok for the crowd to turn on the manager but not on the players, bless em and sadly invariably the manager does the right thing and publicly defends his players, over the past 5 years I don't recall much defending of the manager by the players.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SouthBristolCityBhoy]

This thread reminds me of Tinnion scoring against Southend and when the goalscorer was announced over the tannoy, he was booed.

[REBS14]

And the time when Osmann was subbed.

[bristolcitysweden]

Sadly enough 90 percent of our signings are piss poor

[Superjack]

You had me up until Ian Baird.

[spudski]

Criticism of individuals has always happened in football and unfortunately players have to man up so to speak and develop a thick enough skin to deal with it. Even top players like Carragher have had it at clubs like Liverpool but being top professionals they just get on with the job in hand whether to the fans taste or otherwise.

 

 

It's also down to the Manager to see when players are struggling and take them out of the firing line. Flint and El Abd cannot do a thing right at the moment and I cannot for the life of me see why, if Cotterill is adamant that we have to go with a "back three" that the players selected aren't Williams, Fontaine and Carey. Fontaine has done ok in a couple of games since coming back from loan and both Carey and Williams are comfortable defending in wide areas which is a basic part of playing a back three. Flint is shot to pieces and should be rested for his own good and El Abd looks like a fish out of water whenever he has to defend in wide areas.

 

 

Either that or just play a straight 442 with proper full backs and stick El Abd and Williams in the middle.

It's so weak and easy to slag off anyone when you're in a crowd of people backing you.

I'd love to see some fans grow some and say it to a players face...like that's ever going to happen.

Players don't play badly on purpose.

If they are not good enough then the manager should get stick for buying them.

So many football fans think they are billy big bollox when they are in their 'gang'

Individually....most are cowering fools that wouldn't say boo to a goose.

[Red-Robbo]

This really isn't a new phenomenon. I heard it in the 70s and I'm sure there was booing and ironic cheers before that.

One incident that sticks in the mind was when we had the very wretched Brian Williams playing for us. Near me, in Dolman C, used to sit a supporter who must've had the loudest voice in Bristol. During a quiet moment of some dire match this guy bellowed "Williams! You're a ****ing cabbage!"

This sparked laughter all round the stand and even a few on the pitch seemed to be smirking.

I guess the difference now is that the internet does seem to bring out an infectious negativity in a number of folk. A bad game and a player is ""crap", a few losses and we are "doomed", manager makes some baffling choices and he's "thick".

Has this lead to more in-ground heckling? Well, I'm not so sure....

[RedRock]

I think many of us have suffered enough from overpaid, talentless wasters. We're so bad now I've lost hope.

For 10 years, we've been asking the Academy to be sorted, that a comprehensive network of scouts be established, that we find one, yes one, bloody on-the-field leader, that we can have a few partnerships developing between players and a set formation.

With every new manager, comes new hope. But they can't spot the basic problems and seem just to end up exacerbating things rather than solving issues. I was neutral to positive with SCs appointment but am beginning to lose faith - you had to go some to search out worse players than we signed in the summer transfer window but I think SC may have achieved it. What the ***** is going on with El Abd/Wade Elliot?

No wonder people are turning. It's beginning to look like last year's pathetic surrender of our Championship status is going to be matched by a similar, if not worse, limp wristed effort. Time for Warnock.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I agree with much that you say, hopefully Wade Elliott was SC's Harewood moment, as for El Abd, surely you do not become that bad overnight? and it's not as if he is the first player in our recent history to arrive with a massive reputation/cult status from his former club and turn out to be pants.

 

But to re-iterate when you have a bunch of men under the banner of professional footballer, who in general appear to be unfit for purpose, who seem not even to be able to master the most basic skill associated with their chosen profession, for instance my understanding is far too many throw in's on tuesday night were going straight to an opposition player, please what is that all about.

 

Fans can see when a team has put in 100% and been unlucky and they can also see when a team 'appear' to put in 100% but the performance is littered with basic, unnecessary and unprofessional mistakes, like Coventry's first goal, it is just not acceptable and after 5 years of the same is wearing somewhat thin.

[Murraysrightplum]

We'e simply had too many crap players for too long. Players who were sold to us through press conferences and rumours to be "one for the future", a "real work horse" or "that extra bit of quality we needed" when actually they've all turned out to be the exact opposite! Think to be honest many City fans are just fed up with our appauling dealings in the transfer market.

 

Players who have been good at other clubs and then miraculously are terrible for us? I wonder why that could be?

 

Many many players have said that the crowd do influence a game and that if the crowd is on their back it affects team performance and morale so why do people do it? People seem to think players are robots - they're not, no matter how much they get paid, they are still human beings and obviously are affected by booing, or cheering if they get taken off. I was always taught if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all...

 

Booing your own players. FFS I still can't believe people do it...

[Murraysrightplum]

I think many of us have suffered enough from overpaid, talentless wasters. We're so bad now I've lost hope.

For 10 years, we've been asking the Academy to be sorted, that a comprehensive network of scouts be established, that we find one, yes one, bloody on-the-field leader, that we can have a few partnerships developing between players and a set formation.

With every new manager, comes new hope. But they can't spot the basic problems and seem just to end up exacerbating things rather than solving issues. I was neutral to positive with SCs appointment but am beginning to lose faith - you had to go some to search out worse players than we signed in the summer transfer window but I think SC may have achieved it. What the ***** is going on with El Abd/Wade Elliot?

No wonder people are turning. It's beginning to look like last year's pathetic surrender of our Championship status is going to be matched by a similar, if not worse, limp wristed effort. Time for Warnock.

 

El Abd is a good signing on paper - played well at Brighton by all accounts and is a tough no nonsense type defender that we've been crying out for. Alright he's done badly so far but booing him is hardly going to help is it? He must be thinking what the hell have I done joining this club where the home fans act like away fans. AG should be a fortress with the fans hostile to the opposition, no matter what the City team is doing. The only people we're hostile to at the moment is our own players...

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Players who have been good at other clubs and then miraculously are terrible for us? I wonder why that could be?

 

Many many players have said that the crowd do influence a game and that if the crowd is on their back it affects team performance and morale so why do people do it? People seem to think players are robots - they're not, no matter how much they get paid, they are still human beings and obviously are affected by booing, or cheering if they get taken off. I was always taught if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all...

 

Booing your own players. FFS I still can't believe people do it...

 

in 5 of our past 6 games we have conceded within 20 minutes and the 6th game on 36 minutes, the problem is pretty much a catalogue of schoolboy errors, the players don't need to be robots, they just need to be professional, sometimes a team is unlucky but for us the evidence is far more clear, just looked at the quality of the goals that we have conceded this season and beyond, it far too easy to blame an individual for a sloppy goal but in our case the problems usually start when we are in the opponents half and end with the bit that most fans remember, but believe me far too often the goals we concede are team efforts and it is unacceptable.

 

and I repeat the manager is always expected to support his players come what may, how about the players unitedly supporting the manager for a change.

 

At the end of the day they are the one's that have done for all of the managers who have been sacked.

 

 

 

[RedRock]

We seem to be the fall guys.

We consistently buy players who are either passing their peak, have 'issues' or appear just weak mentally or physically. Because we have an unfit for purpose scouting system we don't pick up on these things. We blunder in, pay top dollar either in transfer fees or wages or both. Selling clubs must think we're a right soft touch as, no doubt, do the players.

I won't jeer my own players but they are beginning to test my patience to the ultimate degree. We don't accept mediocracy, non triers or lack of basic skills/teamwork.The players may feel free to take the p*ss out of Club management but the supporters - nah.

It's always been the 'family club' who will accept second rate performances and come out with excuses. We've always been different at Ashton Gate we want winners and don't accept second rate losers. Long may that continue.