Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I meant by fans having a word with those about to let them off and remind them about the consiquences (points deduction) Out of interest, are you saying that you would do nothing if those speeding drivers were regularly tearing up and down the road outside your house or kids school where you children might be out playing..? It's not my job to enforce people speeding outside of my house, police are paid to enforce the law, not us. as a poster said above about everyone being responsible for each other, what is the need for that? Everyone is adult (I expect), people make their own decisions in life, there doesn't need to be constant, you do this, you can't do that, you can say this. You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I never thought I had a problem with people letting off smoke bombs. I always thought they added to the atmosphere and looked good. That was until Tuesday night at the WSM cup tie. Two were let off on the terrace behind the goal. Because it was a still night, all that happened is the smoke just lingered close to the ground and got in people's throats and eyes. Believe me,it really was horrible. I never thought I would say this,but one lad got arrested and he deserved it,and I hope he gets a ban. This is the picture from Weston. You can tell the reaction of the fans they looked pissed off. Would be better off if fans just booed them, make them feel small and perhaps they'll stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 It's not my job to enforce people speeding outside of my house, police are paid to enforce the law, not us. as a poster said above about everyone being responsible for each other, what is the need for that? Everyone is adult (I expect), people make their own decisions in life, there doesn't need to be constant, you do this, you can't do that, you can say this. You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it. So if you have relevant information that helps the police do their job you keep quiet on the grounds that it's not your responsibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Let he without sin cast the first stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Let he without sin cast the first stone. If we worked on that premise directly how the hell would any sort of judicial or policing system work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 So if you have relevant information that helps the police do their job you keep quiet on the grounds that it's not your responsibility? Let me spin this on it's head, fans used to get thrown out of Ashton gate for standing, the club made threats that part of the ground would be shut down as the council will do it. It's a fact that no home section in this country, has ever been shut due to standing. Would you of gave people's names away, for standing up? As the club has threatened with closing the stand? What use would that have been to anyone with the obvious end results that did happen. Also, in this regard, no I wouldn't point out or name anyone who let off a smoke bomb at a football Match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 If we worked on that premise directly how the hell would any sort of judicial or policing system work? There is a difference between police doing their job, which they are employed too, and people wanting to do the police jobs for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Let he without sin cast the first stone. Flares are dangerous enough now you're calling for fellow supporters to throw stones . Down right irresponsible ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 If we worked on that premise directly how the hell would any sort of judicial or policing system work? You can't pick and choose what law you want to obey ,every single person on this forum has broken the law in some way or other at some time or other,wether by accident or on purpose.Have you ever exceeded the speed limit,dropped litter,parked on double yellow lines,etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Let me spin this on it's head, fans used to get thrown out of Ashton gate for standing, the club made threats that part of the ground would be shut down as the council will do it. It's a fact that no home section in this country, has ever been shut due to standing. Would you of gave people's names away, for standing up? As the club has threatened with closing the stand? What use would that have been to anyone with the obvious end results that did happen. Also, in this regard, no I wouldn't point out or name anyone who let off a smoke bomb at a football Match. Firstly, the standing issue isn't a criminal offence so no, I wouldn't go running to the authorities telling tales but there are certainly some things that it would be morally responsible to report. To choose the example of speeding, you have previously said let the police do their job and it's not your place to help. If somebody made a habit of screaming up and down the road outside my children's school at high speeds then you would be fully entitled to report it, in fact I'd say you were being socially negligent if you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 You can't pick and choose what law you want to obey ,every single person on this forum has broken the law in some way or other at some time or other,wether by accident or on purpose.Have you ever exceeded the speed limit,dropped litter,parked on double yellow lines,etc. That was my point, if you use the argument that you can't enforce the law if you've ever broken a law, then nothing would ever be enforced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Firstly, the standing issue isn't a criminal offence so no, I wouldn't go running to the authorities telling tales but there are certainly some things that it would be morally responsible to report. To choose the example of speeding, you have previously said let the police do their job and it's not your place to help. If somebody made a habit of screaming up and down the road outside my children's school at high speeds then you would be fully entitled to report it, in fact I'd say you were being socially negligent if you didn't. You can go to any extreme you want to try and prove your argument, are you saying that someone maybe killing in a car, and letting off a device which is perfectly legal to use outside of football, is the same? I could buy 100 of these, let them off in my garden when my friends are round, perfectly fine. Let them off at a football no, oh no, how evil, let's get the pitchforks out. The two are not compareable at all. Would you be happy if you over took me at 71mph on the motorway, and I send your details to the traffic police for that area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 That was my point, if you use the argument that you can't enforce the law if you've ever broken a law, then nothing would ever be enforced! I think some would call it hypocritical,well I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I think some would call it hypocritical,well I would. I'm confused. Are you advocating a system where nobody can be involved in law enforcement if they've ever broken a law? In fact, your original quote didn't mention lawbreaking, it mentioned being without sin. You might have trouble finding anybody to keep the peace on that premise and is quite obviously not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 You can go to any extreme you want to try and prove your argument, are you saying that someone maybe killing in a car, and letting off a device which is perfectly legal to use outside of football, is the same? I could buy 100 of these, let them off in my garden when my friends are round, perfectly fine. Let them off at a football no, oh no, how evil, let's get the pitchforks out. The two are not compareable at all. Would you be happy if you over took me at 71mph on the motorway, and I send your details to the traffic police for that area? You'd probably be within your rights although it would be incredibly petty! You said that people shouldn't help the police, and I quote, "You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it." All I'm saying is that there is context to everything, and in some cases it is completely correct to report things or give the police relevant information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 You'd probably be within your rights although it would be incredibly petty! You said that people shouldn't help the police, and I quote, "You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it." All I'm saying is that there is context to everything, and in some cases it is completely correct to report things or give the police relevant information. So, someone can call letting a smoke bomb off petty, and your saying morally you should tell the police . Me informing the police of you doing 71mph is petty, that 1mph might be enough to end someone's life. Just as you see something which is morally wrong, doesn't meant someone else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puckle_red Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 You'd probably be within your rights although it would be incredibly petty! You said that people shouldn't help the police, and I quote, "You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it." All I'm saying is that there is context to everything, and in some cases it is completely correct to report things or give the police relevant information. I agree with Bellleftfoot, human beings make their own decisions, police are paid money to identify and deal with people who make decisions that break the law. Let them deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I'm confused. Are you advocating a system where nobody can be involved in law enforcement if they've ever broken a law? In fact, your original quote didn't mention lawbreaking, it mentioned being without sin. You might have trouble finding anybody to keep the peace on that premise and is quite obviously not possible. If anyone enforcing the law has broken the law,they are indeed hypocites,I'm not saying they shouldn't enforce the the law.I try not to judge others,becuase that would make me a hypocrite,as I have indeed broken the law several times in my life time,and having done the crime have done the time so to speak,but that doesn't stop me thinking that the law enforcers are complete and utter hypocites.Too many holier than thou types these days,sanctimonious I think they call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I've a feeling that I'm tying myself up in knots here, so I will make my position clear and say no more on the matter. I agree with BS3 when he says that fans should police themselves when it comes to something like flares or smoke bombs, unless someone goes too far and seriously injures another fan as a result in which case they should indeed be reported to the the relevant authorities, as should anybody carrying out activities that are serious enough to represent a real danger to other people. I also think we would be in a very difficult situation if anybody who has ever committed a 'sin' is barred from law enforcement. I think there are offences serious enough to bar anybody from holding offical law enforcement positions but at the same time, everybody has a moral responsibility to assist the police in carrying out their law enforcement duties when asked or called upon. I also believe everybody is a hypocrite in their own way. Myself, it's not being vegetarian despite claiming to be an animal lover. I'm sure there are other ways as well but I'm sure as hell not telling everyone here I too try not to judge people, but I do not hesitate in questioning viewpoints I don't agree with. I fully support somebody's right to hold any viewpoint, but I also think that anybody should be allowed to question it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I've a feeling that I'm tying myself up in knots here, so I will make my position clear and say no more on the matter. I agree with BS3 when he says that fans should police themselves when it comes to something like flares or smoke bombs, unless someone goes too far and seriously injures another fan as a result in which case they should indeed be reported to the the relevant authorities, as should anybody carrying out activities that are serious enough to represent a real danger to other people. I also think we would be in a very difficult situation if anybody who has ever committed a 'sin' is barred from law enforcement. I think there are offences serious enough to bar anybody from holding offical law enforcement positions but at the same time, everybody has a moral responsibility to assist the police in carrying out their law enforcement duties when asked or called upon. I also believe everybody is a hypocrite in their own way. Myself, it's not being vegetarian despite claiming to be an animal lover. I'm sure there are other ways as well but I'm sure as hell not telling everyone here I too try not to judge people, but I do not hesitate in questioning viewpoints I don't agree with. I fully support somebody's right to hold any viewpoint, but I also think that anybody should be allowed to question it as well And I shall not be adding anything more,all this typing is making my finger ache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBrer1ke4Cg&feature=youtu.be Boca vrs River from last night, do it right and it makes a massive difference to the atmosphere. But then this is in a country that isnt PC and health and safety obsessed. In contrast, the next video: http://youtu.be/AiAi3ey7sEQ Over the top and people on the pitch can't even see 10 yards in front of them. Each to their own, but not my idea of an atmosphere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellleftfoot Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 In contrast, the next video: http://youtu.be/AiAi3ey7sEQ Over the top and people on the pitch can't even see 10 yards in front of them. Each to their own, but not my idea of an atmosphere. So your worried about not evening being able, To see the pitch when the players are coming out? I personally think that looks amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TV Tom Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 In contrast, the next video: http://youtu.be/AiAi3ey7sEQ Over the top and people on the pitch can't even see 10 yards in front of them. Each to their own, but not my idea of an atmosphere. Rather be at this ground than sanitised soulless bowls like the Emirates, personally don't have a problem with the flares, thought it looked great at that night game at Charlton a couple of years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everreddy Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 why would anyone do it and risk a 3 year ban? Have to be brain dead surely. More important....why would any sane City supporter put at risk our promotion chances? Imagine being deducted 3 points (or more) and being denied promotion by a whisker - just because of the moronic actions of one or two individuals - after all the energy and effort put in by so many over a long season.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real_bristol Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 My thoughts are obviously with the people who have suffered from being in the vicinity of a flare but I definitely think they add to the atmosphere. Would a flare area be so bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 It's not my job to enforce people speeding outside of my house, police are paid to enforce the law, not us. as a poster said above about everyone being responsible for each other, what is the need for that? Everyone is adult (I expect), people make their own decisions in life, there doesn't need to be constant, you do this, you can't do that, you can say this. You or anyone isn't god, not should they be policing matter. Let the police deal with it.If you are employed by any company, you are already responsible for the health and safety of all your colleagues within that company. No person in a complex modern society can act as if they are the only person in the world while at work. And sporting events. Are we not just being told of the minutes silence to be held at all matches next April to remember the dead of Valley Parade. I know some call it the nanny state but everyone now stands a much better chance of going home from work ALIVE, than our forefathers and mothers did! Get real or go live on a deserted island. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 I don't see why people feel the need to use them anyway. What exactly do they add to the "atmosphere"? Nothing at all. We looked stupid at Swindon. Perhaps they are the modern equivalent of the toilet rolls that were thrown at most grounds during the 60s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Rather be at this ground than sanitised soulless bowls like the Emirates, personally don't have a problem with the flares, thought it looked great at that night game at Charlton a couple of years ago In a Euro fixture a few months back, wasn't part of Arsenal's pitch set alight by a visitor's flare / smoke bomb? Odd thing is the Italian club concerned haven't been threatened with any punishment by FIFA, UEFA or their own FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Perhaps they are the modern equivalent of the toilet rolls that were thrown at most grounds during the 60s.When did a toilet roll kill anybody? Does no-one remember sitting in wooden stands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted November 21, 2014 Report Share Posted November 21, 2014 Perhaps they are the modern equivalent of the toilet rolls that were thrown at most grounds during the 60s. More like the 'bangers' that were traditionally let off in the middle of the East End at the home match nearest to Guy Fawkes Night in the 70's. No doubt the club asked people not to do it in the programme but it still happened every year, with the noise and smoke being greeted by cheers from the crowd. Different world then, certainly don't remember any of the young fans ever getting pulled out of the crowd, let alone taken to court and banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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