That Was For You Cotts!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Totally agree EMB.

Teams should be flexible...of which we didn't seem to be under SC.

If we start getting dicked every week from here on in playing this system...then it will raise other questions.

However...what Pembo did today, was not just play a different system, but dropped a tired Wilbs, and brought other fringe players in, which lets be honest, SC said he didn't really trust.

It was a brave decision.

Did Pembo actually say, that SC would be disappointed at todays result?

If so...isn't that a bit selfish on his part...and shows that he only thought about his own ideas as being right? Correct me if i'm wrong mate.

I thought he probably meant disappointed as in a) he wasn't there and in charge and b) that he couldn't deliver that performance and result, a normal reaction from anybody I would think, but I thought at the time it would be twisted, Pemberton, Smith and Burns were all absolutely incredibly complimentary and upset by the weeks events, Wes's dad has already described the scenes at Failand yesterday, I will repeat only GJ and SC out of our past 11 managers have managed even a modicum of success, let's keep the knives for the other 9.

 

 

[Bs4Red]

32 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

As much as I liked the man, I just know that if Cotts hadn't been removed he'd have sent us out in an ultra predictable 3-5-2; started a tired Wilbraham and kept him on when he was a passenger.  We'd probably have lost 0-4 with Albert running rampant on an exposed back 3.

Fresh, attacking formation. Fresh players involved. Faith in younger players. Timely subs.

It all gives a lie to Cotts's assertions that he had no other options available and it vindicates the board's decision. 

It was great that we remembered Cotts and I liked the placards and flags.

But now I think we have given ourselves a real chance.

Wagstaff coming on and making a difference was a huge two fingers up to Cotts along with burns and Reid who he didn't "trust" buzzing with today. Bring on Leeds

[bemmyredjeff]

5 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Then you must have heard an edited version of the full interview because he said it.

Pedantic for a reason, I just sense a lack of class with some of the comments, last season was great and this season wasn't, let's leave it there, why twist the knife?, even much maligned premiership fans rarely do that and certainly not to a manager that brought the level of success that SC did, keep that for the 9 others before and after GJ and before SC, yes 9 managers.

 

You certainly have been on a mission tonight.

Am I right in thinking that you do not attend games regularly, if that is the case then I think it is really hard for you to actually gauge the true feeling of many of us that have had to attend many frustrating games this season.

Yes it is early days, but  what a change and how refreshing to  see eleven players actually able to express themselves and play with a passion that we have craved for but seen very little of this season. 

[steviestevieneville]

7 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Then you must have heard an edited version of the full interview because he said it.

Pedantic for a reason, I just sense a lack of class with some of the comments, last season was great and this season wasn't, let's leave it there, why twist the knife?, even much maligned premiership fans rarely do that and certainly not to a manager that brought the level of success that SC did, keep that for the 9 others before and after GJ and before SC, yes 9 managers.

 

No it wasn't the edited version . I clearly missed it but will watch it again. I'm not twisting the knife at all, i appreciate what SC done for us, in 41 years of watching us i had to listen to my old man talk about the team of 55 and to finally see us win a league and cup double was amazing and we are all be indebted to him for that. I am just stating he is limited tactically at this level.  

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I thought he probably meant disappointed as in a) he wasn't there and in charge and b) that he couldn't deliver that performance and result, a normal reaction from anybody I would think, but I thought at the time it would be twisted, Pemberton, Smith and Burns were all absolutely incredibly complimentary and upset by the weeks events, Wes's dad has already described the scenes at Failand yesterday, I will repeat only GJ and SC out of our past 11 managers have managed even a modicum of success, let's keep the knives for the other 9.

 

 

No problem EMB...wasn't quiet sure how he meant it. I'm sure you are right.

No knives from me...not for any manager. May not agree with them...but can't deny all of them tried.

Time to move on and enjoy the after glow of a great win. Hopefully the next manager can do what SC did after SoD left. Survive and climb the league, then get Promotion ;-)

[Esmond Million's Bung]

12 minutes ago, bemmyredjeff said:

You certainly have been on a mission tonight.

Am I right in thinking that you do not attend games regularly, if that is the case then I think it is really hard for you to actually gauge the true feeling of many of us that have had to attend many frustrating games this season.

Yes it is early days, but  what a change and how refreshing to  see eleven players actually able to express themselves and play with a passion that we have craved for but seen very little of this season. 

You are correct, I just don't get the viciousness associated with it, had he actually not achieved anything like as I said 9 previous managers I could understand it, he's gone so onwards and upwards, the interesting thing is the class in which Pemberton, Smith and Burns handled themselves with their interviews and players on social media.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

6 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

No it wasn't the edited version . I clearly missed it but will watch it again. I'm not twisting the knife at all, i appreciate what SC done for us, in 41 years of watching us i had to listen to my old man talk about the team of 55 and to finally see us win a league and cup double was amazing and we are all be indebted to him for that. I am just stating he is limited tactically at this level.  

i'm not suggesting that you are personally but some of the comments are ridiculous, the important thing was the players obviously liked him, as for the last sentence probably correct but the summer transfer debacle and whoevers fault that was was a huge factor in that you would think.

[Up The City!]

2 hours ago, Collis1 said:

If you think Cotterill is the kind of person who would be happy for us today you are sadly mistaken.

It would have only fed his bitterness. Sad but true.

That's what Pembo sort of alluded to.

[steviestevieneville]

5 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

i'm not suggesting that you are personally but some of the comments are ridiculous, the important thing was the players obviously liked him, as for the last sentence probably correct but the summer transfer debacle and whoevers fault that was was a huge factor in that you would think.

We will never know if the summers transfers would of changed things. It does make you wonder why Wes wasn't used before today especially as he was superb. I stuck up for SC in the past for not playing him as i didn't think he was good enough ( how wrong was i) 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

16 minutes ago, Just Red said:

That's what Pembo sort of alluded to.

I don't think that he did at all, I said what I believe he was alluding to in my reply to Spudski but did say the wording probably made it open to being twisted.

[spudski]

13 minutes ago, Just Red said:

That's what Pembo sort of alluded to.

Again we don't know.

For all we know, Pembo and Wade may have suggested to SC that we should change in the past.

Maybe SC said 'no' and wanted to stick with his views and not listen to anyone else?

I  think it speaks a thousand words, what Pembo and Wade did today.

Pembo said he wanted to make us more solid...hence 4 at the back. He also said he wanted to make it more simple, which he implied was imperative when in a relegation fight.

Maybe it was a 'told you so' from Pembo and Wade to SC....and that's why he would feel bitter towards the result.

All if's, but's and maybe's...but a lot of actions speak louder than words in my book.

Was also highly impressed with how Pembo spoke and acted in the interview.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

8 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

We will never know if the summers transfers would of changed things. It does make you wonder why Wes wasn't used before today especially as he was superb. I stuck up for SC in the past for not playing him as i didn't think he was good enough ( how wrong was i) 

Maybe in a back handed way he did Wes a favour, because hopefully as I said on another thread he will hold on with both hands to the chance that he has now been given and with his display.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

Again we don't know.

For all we know, Pembo and Wade may have suggested to SC that we should change in the past.

Maybe SC said 'no' and wanted to stick with his views and not listen to anyone else?

I  think it speaks a thousand words, what Pembo and Wade did today.

Pembo said he wanted to make us more solid...hence 4 at the back. He also said he wanted to make it more simple, which he implied was imperative when in a relegation fight.

Maybe it was a 'told you so' from Pembo and Wade to SC....and that's why he would feel bitter towards the result.

All if's, but's and maybe's...but a lot of actions speak louder than words in my book.

Was also highly impressed with how Pembo spoke and acted in the interview.

That would all be a little strange given the rest of the interview and his summation of SC in that interview. But we wouldn't be BCFC without believing the worst would we?.

 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

That would all be a little strange given the rest of the interview and his summation of SC in that interview.

 

You can respect colleagues EMB...but not necessarily agree with their views.

If Pembo and Wade truly believed in what SC was doing, they would have played the same way and put Wilbs up top.

No doubt respect is due...but you can't deny the changes made today, with system and players was a big change to what SC normally did.

Plus they trusted players to do a job, that SC wouldn't do.

If SC was in charge today...no way would he have done what Pembo did.

[ajam1212]

Not really getting all this Cotts loving. 

He's not died FFS.

Today just showed how wrong he got everything. His pigheadedness cost him & the club dearly. All his constant excuses unravelled today to show how stubborn he was. Last season was history the minute this one started. Unfortunately it's horses for courses and Cotts wasn't at the races this campaign.He should have gone a month ago but the board let sentiment cloud their judgment. It's about BCFC not cotts. Hopefully today gives us all hope & prooved  we find safety this season.I for one feel confident we can now stay up. COYR

[Fordy62]

4 hours ago, Collis1 said:

If you think Cotterill is the kind of person who would be happy for us today you are sadly mistaken.

It would have only fed his bitterness. Sad but true.

What absolute bollocks mate. No doubt he'd have some (understandable) ill feelings towards the board, but he loved that squad. 

To suggest he'd be anything other than over the moon for us fans and for those players is absolute shit. 

[Manon]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Vindicates the board?, let's see who the next manager is before the blowing of smoke up their arses.

I'm not blowing any smoke. I didn't say the vindication was from my perspective.

From Cotterill 's point of view it will certainly feel like a kick in the teeth and will not be thankful for their 'gift' today.

Do you believe that Cotterill really has feelings for this club and group of players that outstrip those for his own reputation and career?

Anyone - in any business - who is replaced and the business subsequently improves is not gonna enjoy that moment.

[NickJ]

I can honestly say this is one of the most depressing threads I have ever read on this forum, in terms of its unnecessary viciousness.

The OP just wanted to say something pleasant and deservingly complimentary for the manager that gave us the best 18 months that a very large number of our fans will have ever experienced, other than the bitter and twisted minority that didn't want to enjoy it.

Just, shame on you.

[BCFC Jimmer]

11 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

What absolute bollocks mate. No doubt he'd have some (understandable) ill feelings towards the board, but he loved that squad. 

To suggest he'd be anything other than over the moon for us fans and for those players is absolute shit. 

Im not a physcologist Fordy, but given his history I'm convinced he is a very stubborn person who wouldn't be able to bring himself to be happy for us.

I also can't feel sorry for him because I think he was contributing to his own decline and burning bridges.

I love him for what he did last season, but I have never felt attatched to him like I have with some of our managers. He just doesn't seem like a bloke you wpuld be mates with (and i know thats a bit ridiculous because it doesn't matter for the most part when you are a football manager). Sorry if that upsets you so much but its just my opinion.

[...]

2 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

Im not a physcologist Fordy, but given his history I'm convinced he is a very stubborn person who wouldn't be able to bring himself to be happy for us.

I also can't feel sorry for him because I think he was contributing to his own decline and burning bridges.

I love him for what he did last season, but I have never felt attatched to him like I have with some of our managers. He just doesn't seem like a bloke you wpuld be mates with (and i know thats a bit ridiculous because it doesn't matter for the most part when you are a football manager). Sorry if that upsets you so much but its just my opinion.

Then stop unpsetting people with your 'proper nawty' opinions.

I have been studying you for the last few months, and you display several phsycotic markers.

As a result of this, we need you to 'come in' for a debrief.

Usual place, usual time.

 

T.

[BCFC Jimmer]

1 hour ago, Taxi for Rennie said:

Then stop unpsetting people with your 'proper nawty' opinions.

I have been studying you for the last few months, and you display several phsycotic markers.

As a result of this, we need you to 'come in' for a debrief.

Usual place, usual time.

 

T.

Please stop stalking me...!

[Phileas Fogg]

47 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

Please stop stalking me...!

I'd be interested to know what SC is like outside of work. According to himself he doesn't have many interests besides football, seems quite intense too. Difficult to know much about him really.

Del McInness seemed a great guy, Gary Johnson too. Then again, according to many, someone who is great company for a drink is Nigel Farage and he certainly divides opinion!

[Olé]

16 hours ago, spudski said:

Teams should be flexible...of which we didn't seem to be under SC.

I was talking yesterday to someone I see away consistently and hasn't missed a game in living memory and he insisted we switched to four at the back for the second half at the Riverside as well. I can't recall. Wagstaff came on up there too. I was going to mention it in your 352 thread love in , but thought it'd read too much like I was messing with your high!

Suffice to say if I thought for a second that the formation was the primary reason we are where we are, I'd be all over that thread as well, but I don't. I also don't think it was as black and white on SC flexibility as some make out. As others have said, we lined up at Derby as we did yesterday, and the team has adapted on other occasions (Riverside included). 

There have been fine margins in a number of games played under 352 too, where we have looked more than competitive but the result has not reflected that - I'm sure you'd acknowledge a coach in those cases is more likely to make the small adjustments necessary to eradicate the mistakes driving those small margins, than shelve the investment in the system. 

@The Exiled Robin blog has smartly suggested a variety of areas in which SC raised concern, and so if we are looking to compare before and after, we'll need to address a whole bunch of things more than just formation to see which issues were material. Personally I can't look beyond resources, but in any case I guess the trigger was something more sudden.

As per this thread I do think there was an element of players yesterday wanting to prove a point FOR and not to their last manager, but I'm not looking to debate this point as it's clear everyone is claiming evidence they were right all along, not least some on here (not you Spudski) gnashing teeth already that yesterday is all the proof they need of SCs uselessness.

The original point of this thread seemed far more reasonable and measured to me, personally.....

 

 

[spudski]

26 minutes ago, Olé said:

I was talking yesterday to someone I see away consistently and hasn't missed a game in living memory and he insisted we switched to four at the back for the second half at the Riverside as well. I can't recall. Wagstaff came on up there too. I was going to mention it in your 352 thread love in , but thought it'd read too much like I was messing with your high!

Suffice to say if I thought for a second that the formation was the primary reason we are where we are, I'd be all over that thread as well, but I don't. I also don't think it was as black and white on SC flexibility as some make out. As others have said, we lined up at Derby as we did yesterday, and the team has adapted on other occasions (Riverside included). 

There have been fine margins in a number of games played under 352 too, where we have looked more than competitive but the result has not reflected that - I'm sure you'd acknowledge a coach in those cases is more likely to make the small adjustments necessary to eradicate the mistakes driving those small margins, than shelve the investment in the system. 

@The Exiled Robin blog has smartly suggested a variety of areas in which SC raised concern, and so if we are looking to compare before and after, we'll need to address a whole bunch of things more than just formation to see which issues were material. Personally I can't look beyond resources, but in any case I guess the trigger was something more sudden.

As per this thread I do think there was an element of players yesterday wanting to prove a point FOR and not to their last manager, but I'm not looking to debate this point as it's clear everyone is claiming evidence they were right all along, not least some on here (not you Spudski) gnashing teeth already that yesterday is all the proof they need of SCs uselessness.

The original point of this thread seemed far more reasonable and measured to me, personally.....

 

 

You are correct in what you say Ole.

Imho, it wasn't the system perse that failed...their were many other aspects that didn't help.

As I've said before, the 352 'system'...without wanting to put it in an inflexible box, is a very physical, and mentally tiring 'system to play.

We have a small squad, and players with injuries. We often played unfit players and players that were tired. It's no coincidence that we were conceding so many times in the last few minutes of games. Perhaps if we had a bigger squad and were able to rotate more, then the 'system' would have been more successful.

But we had all those anomalies against us. And regardless of the few occasions SC did change it slightly, he in the main stuck to it, with the same players.

Pemberton said yesterday, he wanted us to be more solid and make things more simple and basic. In his words, things needed when in a relegation fight.

Also...one of the last things SC said, was in playing his way, it was harder to find players to fit into that system. He was really making his job more difficult than it could be.

We will never know...if it was me in his position...and I had such a strong belief in a system, then I would have changed accordingly to what I had in front of me. Tried to consolidate, and then when time allowed and new players came in, reverted back to what I believed in.

I love the fact SC really believed in what he was doing...but I do think his belief clouded his judgement and it eventually cost him his job.

He'll get another chance somewhere else...like I said elsewhere, it will be interesting to see what he does. Good luck to him.

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Imho, it wasn't the system perse that failed...their were many other aspects that didn't help.

 

Their you go again. It's quiet frustrating.

Agree with much of what you say, except, spoke to somebody yesterday, who would know, he told me it is very unlikely that the players are any more fatigued playing 3-5-2 than they would be playing under any other system.

The one person he identified as looking tired this season was Bryan, who was given a rest for a few games.

[1team]

What a load of sentimental crap,bottom line 4 wins in 28= not good enough,very few clubs would have let it go on this long.

 

 

 

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Their you go again. It's quiet frustrating.

Agree with much of what you say, except, spoke to somebody yesterday, who would know, he told me it is very unlikely that the players are any more fatigued playing 3-5-2 than they would be playing under any other system.

The one person he identified as looking tired this season was Bryan, who was given a rest for a few games.

And I speak to coach's as well Nick, who have all said 352 is a tiring system both mentally and physically.

Even Bennett when he joined said it was a shock to the system and energy sapping.

Agreed...it is the wing back positions that do most...but it also has an affect on other positions too.

Speak to any coach and they will tell you endurance and speed are needed using this formation...especially in midfield.

Game of opinions Nick...Professional coach's don't always agree.

Just because you hear something...it doesn't make it right...neither do my opinions based on what I hear and see. It's opinions after all...no one person is right, otherwise coach's and managers would all be doing the same thing.

Why it's frustrating I don't know...

[djb6162]

i dont want to get too involved with either side of this emotional debate, but thought I would say this.

and hope the ex gaffa doesnt object too much.

i shared a txt conversation with him last night, the contents will always remain private, with me and the familly.

all i will say is that he has proved to me that the players were very special to him and he would have been delighted for them yesterday despite the obvious what ifs and if only's.

yesterday was only one game after all, and we have a mountain to climb.

as I have said on other threads, its a new year, a new chapter for the club and Steve, and i think we should move on.

better for us, better for the club the players and SC.

there are some great posters on here, some more emotional than others, but there is nothing to be gained by falling out with each other over this topic.

Big FACUP game in 50 hours so lets debate that.

 

[Cider red]

7 minutes ago, djb6162 said:

i dont want to get too involved with either side of this emotional debate, but thought I would say this.

and hope the ex gaffa doesnt object too much.

i shared a txt conversation with him last night, the contents will always remain private, with me and the familly.

all i will say is that he has proved to me that the players were very special to him and he would have been delighted for them yesterday despite the obvious what ifs and if only's.

yesterday was only one game after all, and we have a mountain to climb.

as I have said on other threads, its a new year, a new chapter for the club and Steve, and i think we should move on.

better for us, better for the club the players and SC.

there are some great posters on here, some more emotional than others, but there is nothing to be gained by falling out with each other over this topic.

Big FACUP game in 50 hours so lets debate that.

 

The 4-3-3 happened quicker than I thought ay! Cotts deserves respect, but we have to move on. It clearly wasn't working and he wasn't willing to change, which was ultimately his downfall. The fact that Pembo and Wade had a day to assess things and changed it speaks volumes. As you say, on to West Brom!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

17 hours ago, spudski said:

You can respect colleagues EMB...but not necessarily agree with their views.

If Pembo and Wade truly believed in what SC was doing, they would have played the same way and put Wilbs up top.

No doubt respect is due...but you can't deny the changes made today, with system and players was a big change to what SC normally did.

Plus they trusted players to do a job, that SC wouldn't do.

If SC was in charge today...no way would he have done what Pembo did.

To use a parlance that you will understand, your reply is off piste in respect of my post, I am talking merely about the one sentence that Pemberton used in his interview, which firstly you and then another has tried to twist it and I can't understand why, you're an intelligent guy, what's the point, Pemberton has far more class than to mean that sentence in any derogatory way, if the staff and players can act with class why can't the fans?.

My point is thus, let's celebrate the fact that we are in a better position than when he came him (ala GJ) something 9 managers failed dismally at, we know we have a chance to stay up with performances like yesterdays and hopefully if the right man can be brought in, somebody to enthuse the fans, somebody with a recent pedigree and not a cheap option, the fans will remain positive, it's obvious if the signing of Wiggins is true then that signals a change to a back 4 and with other hopefully good signings, we can get out of our present situation.

Only time will tell if we will be successful in that change to a back 4 will save us and if it doesn't then we have to look at the players.