Result not everything, best performance yet

[Fat Cigar]

Thanks @Olé, great read as always. This lack of crossing thing is a worry. I guess wing-backs give you that, not that I want a return to 3-5-2. 

Tomlin looked lost on Sat and sounds like the same story yesterday. Essential we get this guy into the game. He's a matchwinner. Can't afford to have him drifting.

Sounded encouraging. More so than listening to it. Although I was also quite distracted by the cycling...

[BCFC_Dan]

I think with Tomlin we knew we were getting a player who will spend 80% of his time as a passenger but more than make up for it with the other 20%. You can't build a team around a player like that. Well, you can, but it would only work 20% of the time. What LJ needs to do is build a team that works around him when he's not firing and with him when he is. That's not easy to do and that's why many managers such as Cotterill and to a lesser extent Gary Johnson tend to eschew those players.

I hope Matthews isn't one of those players who works hard when he needs a contract then slacks off. If LJ has done his research then he shouldn't be. I don't know what went on in pre-season but presumably things were a bit up in the air for him and maybe he didn't get to complete a full training programme. Hopefully he'll be up to speed in a few weeks and back to his best.

It was an encouraging performance last night. To go toe-to-toe with a side like Norwich and only lose by a narrow margin is good for a side like ours. The fact that the result felt disappointing shows how far we've come. Last year we'd have lost that match 4-0. If they can play like that every week they'll win more than they lose and I'd be fairly confident of taking points from Newcastle and Villa.

[Major Isewater]

13 minutes ago, Fat Cigar said:

Thanks @Olé, great read as always. This lack of crossing thing is a worry. I guess wing-backs give you that, not that I want a return to 3-5-2. 

Tomlin looked lost on Sat and sounds like the same story yesterday. Essential we get this guy into the game. He's a matchwinner. Can't afford to have him drifting.

Sounded encouraging. More so than listening to it. Although I was also quite distracted by the cycling...

They were on  bikes ? Is that even allowed by the FA? 

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Fat Cigar said:

Thanks @Olé, great read as always. This lack of crossing thing is a worry. I guess wing-backs give you that, not that I want a return to 3-5-2. 

Tomlin looked lost on Sat and sounds like the same story yesterday. Essential we get this guy into the game. He's a matchwinner. Can't afford to have him drifting.

Sounded encouraging. More so than listening to it. Although I was also quite distracted by the cycling...

Interesting you mention crossing...we are definitely playing narrower, with the intent of passing through the middle and keeping possession.

A lot of modern managers, especially abroad, see Crossing as a backwater tactic...as it's basically a lottery. You have no control over the ball and it's a 50-50 as to where it ends up.

Lots of stats out there...in fact, it's surprising how many crosses you need on average, to actually get a goal...something like 200 on average before a goal scored...but way more passes needed.

It's tactics based on the chances of scoring and keeping possession at the same time.

A mix of both crossing and possession based football through the middle seems to work well in the stats it seems.

With Tomlin in the side...playing two wide players would be suicidal imo.

 

 

[Olé]

8 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Last year we'd have lost that match 4-0.

This. So many times. I actually had a bet on it before the game, and at times the way Norwich worked us, you could have seen it happening. But our team all knew their roles, and they didn't just lump the ball up the field or take low probability chances, they worked as a unit and tried to create openings by passing and individual skill, not 50/50 balls into the box. Like I said, it does mean an absolute premium on chances but it's more respectful of possession. The more understanding and confidence the team gets at LJ's game, the better we'll get. Late on there was a fantastic double one-two between Reid and Kodjia outside the box that was just class. Against a weaker team that sort of football will pass and move through a back line before you know it.

[ciderbeans]

The result was largely expected, with more of a hope we could steal a point or three. Not disappointed and pleased we limited them to one goal. The performance gives us hope and Tammy and tomlin seemed quiet all night so if we perform like that with them firing we will be fine.

i think Norwich will win the league as they have a more galvanised squad along with quality so it's no shame losing to them. I'm more confident we can do something within the next two games. I predicted 6 points from the first 5 games and we have that so far so anything else is a bonus. 1 point off top after three games and positive goal difference is a big improvement on previous campaigns

[Coxy27]

9 hours ago, City169 said:

The ratings I looked it is from the info that the football league collects, so if it's good enough for them- and then clubs to use- then I'd say it's fairly reliable. Just saying, like.

I presume you didn't look at your post after the Burton game. Extremely harsh on Little, who wasn't great, but far from the liability that was made out. In that game he was offered absolutely no protection by O'Dowda and had a very good winger in Lloyd Dyer going at him, and coped pretty well, but was ripped to shreds on here. 

I'm sorry, but did you actually go to Burton?

I don't know what stats you're referring to, but Little didn't cope very well at all at Burton. He was beaten for their goal, didn't even have a good game going forward, and after their goal at 1-1, he was skinned on the wing by one of their centre backs!

[JamesBCFC]

18 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

I'm sorry, but did you actually go to Burton?

I don't know what stats you're referring to, but Little didn't cope very well at all at Burton. He was beaten for their goal, didn't even have a good game going forward, and after their goal at 1-1, he was skinned on the wing by one of their centre backs!

I was at Burton, and he did cope well for someone who had a decent championship winger running at them all game while being offered absolutely zero protection by O'Dowda.

Little could have done better for their goal, as could Flint, Magnusson and Bryan. But only one of those is singled out for the goal.

As for offering nothing going forward, you do realise it was him who set Kodjia free to assist the winner don't you?

He made 2-3 obvious mistakes in that game, as did every single one of our players- barring O'Donnell and Tammy, and even O'Donnell flapped at a few- at Burton. But again, Little is made into the scapegoat.

[cidered abroad]

10 hours ago, Olé said:

Saw that Burton score and was impressed/surprised. Didn't feel Burton were that quality of side against us, just that we played in a manner that gave them most of the ball. So it doesn't change how I felt about Saturday and the tactics. Point of fact, we had far more sustained possession today in the first hour against a top side like Norwich than we did in the same period at Burton. At Burton our tactics gave them a tonne of the ball and most of the chance to attack and they still couldn't beat us. Can only assume they've played far far better against Sheff Wed.

Very early to say, but I am inclined to think that how Norwich play is a blueprint for what LJ wants (they pass and move quickly when they get around the box) and that, similar to our current setup, requires committing a fair number of players forward. In a way that probably allowed us to play our game today when we had the ball, as much as Norwich played theirs (i.e. two teams prepared to leave room). Difference with Burton is they were prepared to defend and break, found us lacking width, won the midfield and dominated the game, but didn't turn that into anything.

I think that this Burton result proves almost conclusively that any team can beat any other team in the Championship. That unpredictability is what makes it more exciting than the Prem and is why the attendances are somewhere around fifth highest for any league in the world. Certainly the highest Second tier league.

It also means that unless a team is absolutely awful or brilliant, it is not normal for any one team to be cast adrift at the bottom or uncatchable at the top. I'm looking forward to a successful roller coaster ride this season.

[mozo]

1 hour ago, BCFC_Dan said:

Last year we'd have lost that match 4-0. If they can play like that every week they'll win more than they lose and I'd be fairly confident of taking points from Newcastle and Villa.

To be fair we weren't a bad side away from home last season. Obviously we beat Middlesbrough away around this time last year and also put good performances away at Ipswich, Brighton, Cardiff and Forest. There were some 4-0 stinkers too though...

[Fat Cigar]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Interesting you mention crossing...we are definitely playing narrower, with the intent of passing through the middle and keeping possession.

A lot of modern managers, especially abroad, see Crossing as a backwater tactic...as it's basically a lottery. You have no control over the ball and it's a 50-50 as to where it ends up.

Lots of stats out there...in fact, it's surprising how many crosses you need on average, to actually get a goal...something like 200 on average before a goal scored...but way more passes needed.

It's tactics based on the chances of scoring and keeping possession at the same time.

A mix of both crossing and possession based football through the middle seems to work well in the stats it seems.

With Tomlin in the side...playing two wide players would be suicidal imo.

 

 

Completely agree, but it would be a bonus if someone in the team could actually cross. Playing through the middle is hard work, and needs our passing game on top form.

[Coxy27]

1 hour ago, City169 said:

I was at Burton, and he did cope well for someone who had a decent championship winger running at them all game while being offered absolutely zero protection by O'Dowda.

Little could have done better for their goal, as could Flint, Magnusson and Bryan. But only one of those is singled out for the goal.

As for offering nothing going forward, you do realise it was him who set Kodjia free to assist the winner don't you?

He made 2-3 obvious mistakes in that game, as did every single one of our players- barring O'Donnell and Tammy, and even O'Donnell flapped at a few- at Burton. But again, Little is made into the scapegoat.

That's not what I said, I said he didn't have a good game going forward, which he didn't, that doesn't mean he offered nothing. He offered a lot, he was in good positions regularly, but several times he ran forward with the ball, and his touch was poor or he wasted it.

Possibly the other defenders could have done better for the Burton goal, but the crucial mistake which allowed their man down the wing was from Little. You're accusing others of making him a scapegoat, but you're actually doing the opposite, and refusing to accept his blame. I don't think Little is good enough to be first choice in the Championship, but that doesn't mean I'll victimise him for every game we lose and he plays, in fact I'd challenge you to find any other match where I have criticised him. He was our worst player at Burton in what was a pretty poor performance overall, despite the result, I don't see what's wrong with saying so.

Also 'set Kodjia free' - No. I'm not having that. He passed the ball to Kodjia, fair enough, but it was all Kodjia's own work getting free, he rolled his man, and sprinted away from him.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Fat Cigar said:

Completely agree, but it would be a bonus if someone in the team could actually cross. Playing through the middle is hard work, and needs our passing game on top form.

Adam Matthews is probably the best crosser at the club, so hopefully when fully fit he'll be the man.

[One Team In Keynsham]

Didn't read the detail, but happy to play shite and win each week.

[JamesBCFC]

46 minutes ago, Coxy27 said:

That's not what I said, I said he didn't have a good game going forward, which he didn't, that doesn't mean he offered nothing. He offered a lot, he was in good positions regularly, but several times he ran forward with the ball, and his touch was poor or he wasted it.

Possibly the other defenders could have done better for the Burton goal, but the crucial mistake which allowed their man down the wing was from Little. You're accusing others of making him a scapegoat, but you're actually doing the opposite, and refusing to accept his blame. I don't think Little is good enough to be first choice in the Championship, but that doesn't mean I'll victimise him for every game we lose and he plays, in fact I'd challenge you to find any other match where I have criticised him. He was our worst player at Burton in what was a pretty poor performance overall, despite the result, I don't see what's wrong with saying so.

Also 'set Kodjia free' - No. I'm not having that. He passed the ball to Kodjia, fair enough, but it was all Kodjia's own work getting free, he rolled his man, and sprinted away from him.

I'm not refusing to accept his blame, I even said he made a mistake leading up to the goal. However I'm refusing to give him over excessive criticism for a performance that was nowhere near as bad as is being made out on here.

I said Little has been a scapegoat for some since League 1, which is true. I didn't say that you were one of those, so I'm not going to take up the offer of digging through your posts.

Worst player vs Burton in my eyes was Tomlin by a fair stretch, produced almost nothing and almost seemed to want to be sent off in the first half. But according to the ratings the football league, and therefore the club, gathered our worst player was Aden 'can do no wrong' Flint (followed by Hordur & O'Donnell and then Brownhill).

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

13 minutes ago, City169 said:

I'm not refusing to accept his blame, I even said he made a mistake leading up to the goal. However I'm refusing to give him over excessive criticism for a performance that was nowhere near as bad as is being made out on here.

I said Little has been a scapegoat for some since League 1, which is true. I didn't say that you were one of those, so I'm not going to take up the offer of digging through your posts.

Worst player vs Burton in my eyes was Tomlin by a fair stretch, produced almost nothing and almost seemed to want to be sent off in the first half. But according to the ratings the football league, and therefore the club, gathered our worst player was Aden 'can do no wrong' Flint (followed by Hordur & O'Donnell and then Brownhill).

I agree with you about Tomlin, I was listening on RB and to be quite honest hardly ever heard his name mentioned by Hadwin. The same for the previous games, now, last season he seemed to be into everything and that was one of the reasons that we avoided relegation, is it because he is not being played in the same position?   I just hope he is not one of those players that impress when on loan, but when given a good contract, just can't be bothered, I really hope that is not the case and that he will soon get back to the form of last season. I look forward to hearing his name mentioned more often by the RB commentators, which will mean our strikers are getting better service.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Watching the so far sparse highlights the Norwich goal was rank piss poor midfield and defensive work from start to finish, we had more than enough players in around to stop the goal well before it happened, there were chances to defend this goal far better than we did and those are the margins of error we need to work on.

O'neil should have done far better stopping the original cross coming in, Magnusson never got within 2 yards of the guy who then crossed from the other side he should have done far more to stop that cross, Pack was far too slow in closing down the danger and Little was like he was in every clip shown was ball watching and lost, as usual the only player actually trying to the job that others failed in was Flint who at least attempted a last second lunge to block the shot.

I still believe that midfield is the real problem here, Pack has a lot of very good points but he can be very slow to spot danger and midfield runners, I believe once Smith is fit he will be a bench option, the midfield also I believe lacks goal scoring potential and a player who can unlock defences in and around the box.

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

13 hours ago, Fatalist said:

I really didn't think Little was only worth 4. He made a few errors, but generally stood strong and made some vital challenges. Tomlin is the one who worries me - he just seems anonymous most of the time. If we are to get anything from teams like Norwich, we need to move the ball quicker when we win posession and get men upfield to support Abraham.

Agree - Little seems to be this season's early scapegoat - like Marlon Pack was last season....and I also agree that since he signed permanently Tomlin hasn't set the world alight in the way most expected him to...

[Kingswoodactor]

2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Watching the so far sparse highlights the Norwich goal was rank piss poor midfield and defensive work from start to finish, we had more than enough players in around to stop the goal well before it happened, there were chances to defend this goal far better than we did and those are the margins of error we need to work on.

O'neil should have done far better stopping the original cross coming in, Magnusson never got within 2 yards of the guy who then crossed from the other side he should have done far more to stop that cross, Pack was far too slow in closing down the danger and Little was like he was in every clip shown was ball watching and lost, as usual the only player actually trying to the job that others failed in was Flint who at least attempted a last second lunge to block the shot.

I still believe that midfield is the real problem here, Pack has a lot of very good points but he can be very slow to spot danger and midfield runners, I believe once Smith is fit he will be a bench option, the midfield also I believe lacks goal scoring potential and a player who can unlock defences in and around the box.

 

I agree, Maggers could have closed their guy down much quicker, and our DMF's should have picked up their runners in our box.

However, that was probably our most difficult away fixture of the entire season, and we didn't play badly. A lack of cutting edge in the final third, and some sleepy moments at the back cost us, but we won't dwell on it!

On-wards & upwards we go 

[Robson]

Seems like I'm one of the only fans to have gone last night and thought if we would have gotten smashed 4-0 or 5-0 it wouldn't of been unfair. 

First 15 minutes we were great but after that we gave them far to much room, outplayed up in midfield and we had nothing going forward. 

Second half the team looked like they would settle for a 1-0 defeat and shown no desire to close Norwich down. Norwich hit the post twice and had numerous chances to score but couldn't take them. 

Probably our best performance in parts of the game yes but nothing to scream and shout about. Doesn't give me much optimism looking ahead for Newcastle and Villa. We play like last night it could easily be 4 or 5-0. 

[SedRA]

3 minutes ago, Claude said:

Seems like I'm one of the only fans to have gone last night and thought if we would have gotten smashed 4-0 or 5-0 it wouldn't of been unfair. 

First 15 minutes we were great but after that we gave them far to much room, outplayed up in midfield and we had nothing going forward. 

Second half the team looked like they would settle for a 1-0 defeat and shown no desire to close Norwich down. Norwich hit the post twice and had numerous chances to score but couldn't take them. 

Probably our best performance in parts of the game yes but nothing to scream and shout about. Doesn't give me much optimism looking ahead for Newcastle and Villa. We play like last night it could easily be 4 or 5-0. 

I'd be surprised. That'd be our first clean sheet of the season.  

 

[Major Isewater]

39 minutes ago, Claude said:

Seems like I'm one of the only fans to have gone last night and thought if we would have gotten smashed 4-0 or 5-0 it wouldn't of been unfair. 

First 15 minutes we were great but after that we gave them far to much room, outplayed up in midfield and we had nothing going forward. 

Second half the team looked like they would settle for a 1-0 defeat and shown no desire to close Norwich down. Norwich hit the post twice and had numerous chances to score but couldn't take them. 

Probably our best performance in parts of the game yes but nothing to scream and shout about. Doesn't give me much optimism looking ahead for Newcastle and Villa. We play like last night it could easily be 4 or 5-0. 

' gotten ' ? Are you American Claude ? 

[And Its Smith]

5 hours ago, Alessandro said:

And at least we now know who this seasons 'fans scapegoat' 2016/17 award goes to:

Mark Little

Take a nice early bow son.

Not sure who predicted this one when we discussed it in preseason!? Was it @RedDave?

I think so but in retrospect, I'm not a fan of the term 'scapegoat'.  Little is just our worst player and there seems to be not a lot of debate about that.  

[WestfieldRed]

4 minutes ago, RedDave said:

I think so but in retrospect, I'm not a fan of the term 'scapegoat'.  Little is just our worst player and there seems to be not a lot of debate about that.  

In terms of being out of their depth in the Champ I'd say Freeman gives Little a run for his money.

Maybe that's unfair because of the expectation for Freeman to kick on at the higher level though?

[NickJ]

23 hours ago, Olé said:

For the first 70 minutes we outplayed them for long periods

I think you are over compensating, and I am fairly confident anyone there last night will say the same - big time - for the flak you took for you Burton report.

BTW I thought your Burton report was on the money.

Yes Norwich are decent and will probably go up. They were poor by their standards last night, thankfully.

We will be ok, but I fear it will be a non eventful season.

[Malago]

8 hours ago, Claude said:

Seems like I'm one of the only fans to have gone last night and thought if we would have gotten smashed 4-0 or 5-0 it wouldn't of been unfair. 

First 15 minutes we were great but after that we gave them far to much room, outplayed up in midfield and we had nothing going forward. 

Second half the team looked like they would settle for a 1-0 defeat and shown no desire to close Norwich down. Norwich hit the post twice and had numerous chances to score but couldn't take them. 

Probably our best performance in parts of the game yes but nothing to scream and shout about. Doesn't give me much optimism looking ahead for Newcastle and Villa. We play like last night it could easily be 4 or 5-0. 

After you Claude.

Couldnt agree more.  I thought it was a toothless performance.  You don't have to be Pep Guardiola to see a fit Mathews and Smith will improve the team.  Maggers likes lightweight and needs to improve is upper body strength.  We allowed  Norwich to pass through the midfield far too easily.  Not the end of the world but lots of room for improvement.

 

[Spoons]

I went last night and thought we were a good match for Norwich but just a little predictable going forward. 

Also im not mark little's biggest fan but man was he isolated. He had kodja playing in front of him then Tomlin !! Neither fancied tracking back, but it was so awkward watching little last night . Low on confidence and doing anything to avoid the ball . 

Impressed with the way we passed the ball thing Gary o'neil was strong in midfield and look forward to Korey playing with him. 

Not easy I know but got to get Tomlin the ball in more advanced positions . He was coming far to deep just to get involved and ended up getting in the way. 

All in all opportunity missed as we could have nicked a point but tough league and Norwich premiership players were the difference in the end. 

[AshtonGreat]

On 16/08/2016 at 22:33, Olé said:

A few people thought I was missing all the fun on Saturday by criticising the tactics and not simply latching onto the result so let me double up on that by saying I got far more from today's performance that gave me confidence we're going to have a really solid season. I realise we lost.

For the first 70 minutes we outplayed them for long periods and were more than equal to a team who I'm sure will be up the top. Norwich have a Premiership touch about their interplay in the final third but we were the better side for the first 15 minutes of both halves and really had a go at them.

This was far far better than Burton, against an ex-Prem team not a L1 one. I've not yet been sure we would stand our ground with this team given how much we were second best against Wycombe and Burton but  today was about as tough an away game as we will have and I saw a team that gave it everything and tried to get in front early.

Tactics still very compact with few crosses which for me still limits the number of chances that we create and puts pressure on clinical passing through the middle, but Kodjia was absolutely outstanding running the channels and wings as we looked to build, then take on their players at pace. At times Norwich really couldn't deal with it.

They were far sharper around the box but barely deserved to be in front, though was merited in the end over 90 as we faded last 20 and they started picking us apart and could have had more. But for an hour we took the game to one of the best in the division and that means as much to me at least as three points against Burton. Much happier to see signs we can compete this year, and I really think we will.

The good - Kodjia outstanding particularly with Tammy marked out of it in the middle. Pack - we are so much better with him in there, he works so hard. O'Neil - solid and calm in everything he does. Bryan - sharp at both ends. Magnusson - competes and looks more and more comfortable on the ball when he gets it.

The bad - Little, although given very little  cover, was way out of his depth at this level again and I'm starting to wonder if we really have enough at RB as Matthews didn't look sharp when he came on. Count me as someone who thinks Ayling offers more in this type of company. 

Honourable mention to Tomlin who I still think is a luxury when we have two up top, but at least in little bursts was racing about trying to find touches to pull opponents out of position, more so than he has done yet this season. Again I'd rather see tactics that were less reliant on doing a Spain through the middle and gave the strikers more to work with, but at least today it let us build and keep the ball looking for a killer opportunity where getting it in the box early would probably have seen them come back at us far more and score far more too, as Norwich is definitely a team with goals in them.

Two final mentions - 1. ref and linesman in front of us would not have given anything to City if we played another two hours. I'm more and more inclined to believe there is such a thing as parachute officials. 2. The home side were very good and hit the post twice, but I did also notice a bit of niggle to them where they got away with shirt pulls time and time again. Call it streetwise but I think they'll be up there comfortably and a shame to be so cynical about letting others play.

O'Donnell 7 - One worldy but it was offside. Assured in handling

Little 4 - Not always his fault as exposed by lack of cover and few nice touches on the ball pushing out of defence, but we can't rely on an attacking full back that can't defend in an already attacking 433

Bryan 8 - Comparison with opposite side was telling. Did well going forward and was in quickly to stop opponents.

Flint 6 - Solid enough but didn't win a lot at the other end and flick ons 

Magnusson 7 - Competed and was the only one able to play it out of defence where a lot of others would go back to the keeper.

O'Neil 8 - Calmness was vital or we could have got thrashed. Solid throughout.

Pack 7 - Few miscontrols lost the ball by the touchline but his energy with and without the ball was much better than our midfield at Burton.

Tomlin 6 - Still not convinced by his ability to affect the game in this position but for periods affected things much more than he has this season and was definitely up for it.

O'Dowda 6 - Few nice bits of interplay but was loose in the first half and struggled to get in the game. Grew in confidence as we did and still looks like a first 11 player.

Kodjia 9 - Instagram or not he was at times the best player on the pitch with the ball at his feet and defenders back tracking. Far less selfish than previous games, couple of sensational bits of interplay (one late on with Bobby Reid) and always looking to create room. Anyone who thinks we can replace this guy for sensible money needs to give me the number of their weed dealer.

Abraham 5 - Unfair as he was the target man and they clearly singled him out but this showed why we should reign in the Tammy hysteria and remember what Kodj offers against higher class opposition.

Subs: Matthews 5 - No better than Little. Reid 6 - Some nice purpose and touches around the box. Freeman 5 - Some nice ball control but too easily out muscled.

*Instagram tantrum watch* - Kodjia rushed off the pitch when all the rest of the team and manager went over to the away end. I think this story has legs folks.

Seriously, I just watched the highlights of this game and it looked like we could've lost 7-0

[Robbored]

A simple question - would you prefer to see dull defensive football and yet win. Or prefer to see attacking high tempo football but lose..........

[Frenchay Red]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

A simple question - would you prefer to see dull defensive football and yet win. Or prefer to see attacking high tempo football but lose..........

So is that a choice between dull defensive promotion or attacking high tempo relegation?

 

Of course under SOD and then Cotts it was the other way round.