Steve cotterill

[phantom]

1 hour ago, Nuno Gomez said:

Vote 'yes' you know it makes sense. 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/aston-villa-manager-rumour-steve-11976629

Maybe they are unsure ? 

[Robin1988]

17 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

It doesn't matter when Dwight Gayle's name is mentioned or even if it's mentioned at all. The fact remains that there was a whole summer to get signings in and come September we had Kodjia, a couple of loans and a bloke who'd already had second thoughts and buggered off again.

I remember an interview with Steve Lansdown at the end of the promotion season in which he talked about how Cotterill would identify and present a list of targets to him within the next few weeks and I remember thinking then that that was surprisingly late. It was obvious from January that we were in with a good chance of going up and it was pretty much nailed on from March. That list of signings could have been presented much earlier than it was (as I believe it was this time ago, with LJ and MA working on it from day one).

I don't know the ins and outs of the club and nor do I pretend to. Maybe Cotterill was trying to give the board a list of signings on January 1st and they just sat on it. I don't care really as everyone involved other than the directors has gone now and things are better. All I am talking about is the evidence as viewed from outside which is that:

1. They didn't appear to start looking at new signings until May at the earliest.

2. They didn't sign anyone at all until July.

3. By the end of August they'd made 3 permanent signings and 2 of those left again.

 

My original post was largely defending Cotterill but he does not get to escape the blame for that calamity of an off-season.

Well it does matter, you made out unrealistic targets were being touted all summer, which is rubbish.

Lists were presented and left with the board, as I said, before they went off for the summer. The issue was not the timing; the transfer window wasn't even open, and even with discussions taking time, not a lot of players move before around the start of July. We started finalising deals in the last week of June in 2014.

That Yeovil interview was on July 31. As I said, it's not an off-the-cuff thing, so problems must have been bubbling on the surface for a good few weeks beforehand between him and the board.

MA and LJ did go about their business better, and I doubt we've have signed Tammy Abraham had the old set-up remained because the background work wouldn't have gone in. MA and LJ are better, yes, but Cotterill was not the one who didn't move on targets which ended up with us bidding ridiculous amounts for unreachable players.

[stephenkibby.]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I personally don't think there is a place for him in modern football anymore...he's a dinosaur. Unless he was to change the way he 'managed' then I think he will struggle.

Clubs are getting more savvy and realising football is changing fast, and there is no place for 'old skool' football managers anymore...if you want long term success.

Managing a football club is now, is about having a team around you that you can work with and delegate. All pulling together and trusting one another.

These 'Old skool' managers still have an old way of managing and it's hard to adjust. It's 'my way or the high way' with a lot of them.

Football has moved on drastically.  A lot of managers of a certain age haven't. You only have to look at the list of British managers without a club, and have been for a while...all over a certain age and of similar ilk, to see the connection.

The likes of Eddie Howe and our own LJ are now the future. People in the game know that.

More importantly...they relate better with the modern pro players.

These players now are of a generation that has grown up as 'soft' compared to what a lot of us have experienced.

They don't respond well to how a lot of these 'old skool' managers go about their business...especially in man management and motivation.

We all joke about players needing the proverbial kick up the backside...but that's how we were motivated.

Man management is massive. Understanding how each individual player ticks and treating them like an adult gains respect and they'll play for you.

SC lost that respect. Plus he is far less tactically astute at this level than LJ...a manager with far less years under his belt.

I wouldn't wish SC on any Club...well the Gas maybe ;-)

Just my opinion....

Spud you do seem to enjoy giving Cotterill  a good kicking!!!!!

[...]

I think Villa's ex-Premier league superstars would respond well to be screamed at by Cotts.

Give him the job.

 

Uncle TFR

[Nogbad the Bad]

55 minutes ago, spudski said:

I personally don't think there is a place for him in modern football anymore...he's a dinosaur. 

 there is no place for 'old skool' football managers anymore...if you want long term success.

 

These 'Old skool' managers still have an old way of managing and it's hard to adjust. It's 'my way or the high way' with a lot of them.

Football has moved on drastically.  A lot of managers of a certain age haven't. You only have to look at the list of British managers without a club, and have been for a while...all over a certain age and of similar ilk, to see the connection.

The likes of Eddie Howe and our own LJ are now the future. People in the game know that.

 

 

Man management is massive. Understanding how each individual player ticks and treating them like an adult gains respect and they'll play for you.

SC lost that respect. Plus he is far less tactically astute at this level than LJ...a manager with far less years under his belt.

I wouldn't wish SC on any Club...well the Gas maybe ;-)

Just my opinion....

Far too dismissive for a manager who had such a successful, entertaining and memorable spell at the club.

Yes, it all went wrong for SC at the end, but that's the case with most managers at almost all clubs.

No one knows if his system could have been successful in the Championship if he'd upgraded the 3 or 4 players necessary to give it a good go.

It will be something to watch closely if he is employed again at this level because there's little doubt he's made up his mind to stick to it, and he'll be employed on that basis.

As for LJ, even the most sceptical of City fans will be delighted and impressed by at his start at AG, but as for long term progress or success, of course we just don't know. We do know that Barnsley fans said LJ was at a loss as to how to halt their epic and disastrous losing streak, ending up with baffling tinkering, and for all the encouraging signs so far, we don't know how he'll respond to a similar run at AG.

Cotterill had had decades of managerial experience, enjoyed promotions and has never been relegated. LJ, for all his promise has so far achieved very little. Some players respond favourably to molly coddling, others undoubtedly occasionally need the proverbial kick up the backside. As a manager you have to find the balance, but at some stage LJ will have to lay down the law to his players and it's then we'll see how they respond. We do know from Barnsley fans that he fell out with several players at Oakwell, so his own man management methods may not be beyond reproach.

Cotterill's long record in management would indicate he gets things right in his relationship with his players most of the time, and the first thing he'll do at a new club is compile a list of potential signings with the required character to respond positively to him and his methods. No doubt some of those will be players who have enjoyed playing under him before, including probably one or two from his time at AG. They will  have great memories of the success they enjoyed, the camaraderie in the dressing room instilled by the manager, and how their careers progressed. These players will know far more about SC, his personality and his methods, than any of us will ever know, and many of them liked him personally enough to be very upset by his departure - i.e. Flint. They will no doubt look back on his time at AG far more appreciatively and fondly than you apparently do, and, like Wade Elliot following him here, will be more than happy to entrust their careers to his guidance again.

[...]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Far too dismissive for a manager who had such a successful, entertaining and memorable spell at the club.

Yes, it all went wrong for SC at the end, but that's the case with most managers at almost all clubs.

No one knows if his system could have been successful in the Championship if he'd upgraded the 3 or 4 players necessary to give it a good go.

It will be something to watch closely if he is employed again at this level because there's little doubt he's made up his mind to stick to it, and he'll be employed on that basis.

As for LJ, even the most sceptical of City fans will be delighted and impressed by at his start at AG, but as for long term progress or success, of course we just don't know. We do know that Barnsley fans said LJ was at a loss as to how to halt their epic and disastrous losing streak, ending up with baffling tinkering, and for all the encouraging signs so far, we don't know how he'll respond to a similar run at AG.

Cotterill had had decades of managerial experience, enjoyed promotions and has never been relegated. LJ, for all his promise has so far achieved very little. Some players respond favourably to molly coddling, others undoubtedly occasionally need the proverbial kick up the backside. As a manager you have to find the balance, but at some stage LJ will have to lay down the law to his players and it's then we'll see how they respond. We do know from Barnsley fans that he fell out with several players at Oakwell, so his own man management methods may not be beyond reproach.

Cotterill's long record in management would indicate he gets things right in his relationship with his players most of the time, and the first thing he'll do at a new club is compile a list of potential signings with the required character to respond positively to him and his methods. No doubt some of those will be players who have enjoyed playing under him before, including probably one or two from his time at AG. They will  have great memories of the success they enjoyed, the camaraderie in the dressing room instilled by the manager, and how their careers progressed. These players will know far more about SC, his personality and his methods, than any of us will ever know, and many of them liked him personally enough to be very upset by his departure - i.e. Flint. They will no doubt look back on his time at AG far more appreciatively and fondly than you apparently do, and, like Wade Elliot following him here, will be more than happy to entrust their careers to his guidance again.

He is your friend.

We know ........... we KNOW.

 

Uncle TFR

[BCFC_Dan]

40 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Well it does matter, you made out unrealistic targets were being touted all summer, which is rubbish.

You're right there. Nothing was touted all summer, then unrealistic ones came along at the last minute.

 

40 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Lists were presented and left with the board, as I said, before they went off for the summer. The issue was not the timing; the transfer window wasn't even open, and even with discussions taking time, not a lot of players move before around the start of July. We started finalising deals in the last week of June in 2014.

They might not move until July but this summer showed that the work needs to start much, much earlier. Much earlier than it seemed to last year.

 

40 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

That Yeovil interview was on July 31. As I said, it's not an off-the-cuff thing, so problems must have been bubbling on the surface for a good few weeks beforehand between him and the board.

Clearly he wasn't happy with the board, hence him acting like a teenager pretty much non-stop from July onwards. I don't know who is at fault there. Probably everyone in some way.

 

40 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

MA and LJ are better, yes, but Cotterill was not the one who didn't move on targets which ended up with us bidding ridiculous amounts for unreachable players.

He was the manager. The buck stops with him.

MA and LJ made lists months in advance. They made lists of lists. Lists of players for each role, for each position, for both possible divisions. Lists in priority order with multiple alternatives. If Steve Cotterill did that and his lists were simply ignored then he should have walked out. He does not escape the blame for this.

[Robin1988]

Dan, it's just not what happened. I can understand you putting 2+2 together and getting 5 considering the cloak-and-dagger nature of it but it's just not true and we're going round in circles. And your final sentence is incredibly naive.

[reformed_red]

1. Steve Cotterill will not get the Aston Villa job.

2. Steve Cotterill was a fantastic manager at Bristol City; he halted our slide, took us up and won a cup.

3. Some fans need to remember point 2.

4. Steve Cotterill's shelf-life at City ran out - he took us as far as he could; we needed to build something sustainable for the next level.

5. Lee Johnson is the right man for the job outlined in point for, contrary to those fans who wrote him off before he even got here.

6. I wonder what may have happened had SC been given another 2 to 3 weeks, and we brought in MA and signed the players we did..??

7. In reference to point 6, and in hindsight, SC and MA would have been 'entertaining' double act, resulting in a punch up and a relegation.

8. We are in a better place as a club, but we owe thanks to SC for building the team that he did, as much of that team is still the backbone here now.

9. I'm tired of making points now.

[Gazred]

4 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Dan, it's just not what happened. I can understand you putting 2+2 together and getting 5 considering the cloak-and-dagger nature of it but it's just not true and we're going round in circles. And your final sentence is incredibly naive.

Thought he got it pretty much spot on - at least from a supporters perspective. So do you have anything concrete in response or just conjecture?

SC and KB are both gone and our recruitment is back on a par with the last time MA was involved. Can only really call it as we see it.

[harvey]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I personally don't think there is a place for him in modern football anymore...he's a dinosaur. Unless he was to change the way he 'managed' then I think he will struggle.

Clubs are getting more savvy and realising football is changing fast, and there is no place for 'old skool' football managers anymore...if you want long term success.

Managing a football club is now, is about having a team around you that you can work with and delegate. All pulling together and trusting one another.

These 'Old skool' managers still have an old way of managing and it's hard to adjust. It's 'my way or the high way' with a lot of them.

Football has moved on drastically.  A lot of managers of a certain age haven't. You only have to look at the list of British managers without a club, and have been for a while...all over a certain age and of similar ilk, to see the connection.

The likes of Eddie Howe and our own LJ are now the future. People in the game know that.

More importantly...they relate better with the modern pro players.

These players now are of a generation that has grown up as 'soft' compared to what a lot of us have experienced.

They don't respond well to how a lot of these 'old skool' managers go about their business...especially in man management and motivation.

We all joke about players needing the proverbial kick up the backside...but that's how we were motivated.

Man management is massive. Understanding how each individual player ticks and treating them like an adult gains respect and they'll play for you.

SC lost that respect. Plus he is far less tactically astute at this level than LJ...a manager with far less years under his belt.

I wouldn't wish SC on any Club...well the Gas maybe ;-)

Just my opinion....

Totally agree with every word. Cotts done well for us in league one but he  is in a time warp ..simple fact not up to modern day management.  I know he stopped communicating with Mark Ashton and did not identify any credible players to sign for the championship... Villa, to big and  way out of depth for Cotts

[Robin1988]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Thought he got it pretty much spot on - at least from a supporters perspective. So do you have anything concrete in response or just conjecture?

Not beyond the confines of it didn't happen, but then that's about as far is it can ever go on here. I could be Steve Cotterill, I could be a 50-year-old man called Brian.

[Super]

1 hour ago, Im_over_ere said:

I reckon Villa should appoint one of their old boys with a proven track record - Dean Saunders. I think he can do a great job...............................for everyone else in the league

Or Paul Merson.

[Gazred]

2 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Not beyond the confines of it didn't happen, but then that's about as far is it can ever go on here. I could be Steve Cotterill, I could be a 50-year-old man called Brian.

Understand your position, but what are you saying didn't happen? Are you alluding that SC is free from all blame of a disastrous pre-season transfer window?

[WhistleHappy]

2 hours ago, Robin1988 said:

Argh, this is a wives' tale which is peddled so much on here but just is not true.

Ahh, typical then, bloody women, what do they know about football?

 

 

 

( runs away and hides    .... I didn't mean it )

 

[Robin1988]

6 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Understand your position, but what are you saying didn't happen? Are you alluding that SC is free from all blame of a disastrous pre-season transfer window?

I'm saying the lists were drawn up in good time, the board were presented with them - in fact many of the players who we were linked with (which @BCFC_Dan has forgotten) were on them. Lees, Maguire, etc. Had MA been here at the time I bet some would've been over the threshold by mid-July.

It's difficult to apportion blame for that area of last season, sticking with 3-5-2 and not fielding a full bench is another matter. Was Cotterill given the funding to go after the ilk of players we ended up with in the summer? No. Did he help himself in other ways once everything went tits up? No.

[WhistleHappy]

2 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm saying the lists were drawn up in good time, the board were presented with them - in fact many of the players who we were linked with (which @BCFC_Dan has forgotten) were on them. Lees, Maguire, etc. Had MA been here at the time I bet they would've been over the threshold by mid-July.

It's difficult to apportion blame for that area of last season, sticking with 3-5-2 and not fielding a full bench is another matter. Was Cotterill given the funding to go after the ilk of players we ended up with in the summer? No.

 

*Did he help himself in other ways once everything went tits up? No.

* ..its possible he might have nicked a few pens from the stationary cupboard, who knows?

[spudski]

30 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

Spud you do seem to enjoy giving Cotterill  a good kicking!!!!!

It's not like that fella tbh...

SC did bring success in Promotion from League 1 in double quick time. And the records will show that. History can't be taken away...and his record will shine for that.

However...you can build success that is sustainable, and have a realistic long term plan, that most importantly is going in the same direction that was agreed with the rest of the Club...ie the board, Owner, Coach's and Academy.

This is where you are either a good manager...or someone that see's it purely as a short term fix.

Imo, you are not a good manager if you are bringing short term success, to the detriment of the rest of the Club.

That short term success of promotion was unsustainable, because of what was happening behind the scenes. It was falling apart...BIG TIME.

And this is why I don't rate SC...I don't like the man, the way he works, or how he conducts himself.

Like I said...the majority of fans will see the Promotion...but they wont see the carnage in it's wake.

What's the point of gaining promotion if you are wrecking the Club within, and taking it back down again. Because of poor management, pig headedness and not sticking to the agreed plan....as well as other attributes I wont go into.

[Gazred]

4 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm saying the lists were drawn up in good time, the board were presented with them - in fact many of the players who we were linked with (which @BCFC_Dan has forgotten) were on them. Lees, Maguire, etc. Had MA been here at the time I bet some would've been over the threshold by mid-July.

It's difficult to apportion blame for that area of last season, sticking with 3-5-2 and not fielding a full bench is another matter. Was Cotterill given the funding to go after the ilk of players we ended up with in the summer? No. Did he help himself in other ways once everything went tits up? No.

Appreciate the response. So i take from that, that SC, for whatever reasons did not have a good working relationship with the recruitment team. This left the playing squad short, the manager with less tactical/formation options and well, we all know the rest.

[Robin1988]

1 minute ago, Gazred said:

Appreciate the response. So i take from that, that SC, for whatever reasons did not have a good working relationship with the recruitment team. This left the playing squad short, the manager with less tactical/formation options and well, we all know the rest.

You can pass your own judgement from the fact MA was approached by the board around the time of SC's departure to come in and sort out our recruitment process. The recruitment was left in the hands of people who weren't in a position to get it done, and so - it didn't.

In this day and age it's not a role one man can combine with being a manager, and especially when backed by a board with a real lack of any kind of footballing pedigree, and John Pelling.

LJ is fortunate in that he's come into the club at the perfect time for him, but then he's also done a hell of a lot for himself and from what I understand him and MA have a very strong working relationship. Tammy was very much a joint effort as has been well documented, and more generally he's had presentations made to showcase the club to prospective signings which AFAIK has never happened before.

[BCFC_Dan]

18 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm saying the lists were drawn up in good time, the board were presented with them - in fact many of the players who we were linked with (which @BCFC_Dan has forgotten) were on them. Lees, Maguire, etc. Had MA been here at the time I bet some would've been over the threshold by mid-July.

Apologies. It's hard to remember every player we didn't sign. Good job there was a list of alternatives in place so we weren't left with nothing, eh?

If things were that bad with Burt and Pelling then why didn't SC walk out with his reputation intact?

[exAtyeoMax]

32 minutes ago, WhistleHappy said:

Ahh, typical then, bloody women, what do they know about football?

 

 

 

( runs away and hides    .... I didn't mean it )

 

[chinapig]

2 hours ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm saying the lists were drawn up in good time, the board were presented with them - in fact many of the players who we were linked with (which @BCFC_Dan has forgotten) were on them. Lees, Maguire, etc. Had MA been here at the time I bet some would've been over the threshold by mid-July.

It's difficult to apportion blame for that area of last season, sticking with 3-5-2 and not fielding a full bench is another matter. Was Cotterill given the funding to go after the ilk of players we ended up with in the summer? No. Did he help himself in other ways once everything went tits up? No.

I seem to recall Pelling announcing we would do our business late in the window. My heart sank at the time.

I assume he thought it would be easier to sign players as the deadline approached but it seems to me that all that happens is that prices go up.

I concluded that the failure to sign players at least wasn't solely down to SC.

[Lew-T]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

I personally don't think there is a place for him in modern football anymore...he's a dinosaur. Unless he was to change the way he 'managed' then I think he will struggle.

Clubs are getting more savvy and realising football is changing fast, and there is no place for 'old skool' football managers anymore...if you want long term success.

Managing a football club is now, is about having a team around you that you can work with and delegate. All pulling together and trusting one another.

These 'Old skool' managers still have an old way of managing and it's hard to adjust. It's 'my way or the high way' with a lot of them.

Football has moved on drastically.  A lot of managers of a certain age haven't. You only have to look at the list of British managers without a club, and have been for a while...all over a certain age and of similar ilk, to see the connection.

The likes of Eddie Howe and our own LJ are now the future. People in the game know that.

More importantly...they relate better with the modern pro players.

These players now are of a generation that has grown up as 'soft' compared to what a lot of us have experienced.

They don't respond well to how a lot of these 'old skool' managers go about their business...especially in man management and motivation.

We all joke about players needing the proverbial kick up the backside...but that's how we were motivated.

Man management is massive. Understanding how each individual player ticks and treating them like an adult gains respect and they'll play for you.

SC lost that respect. Plus he is far less tactically astute at this level than LJ...a manager with far less years under his belt.

I wouldn't wish SC on any Club...well the Gas maybe ;-)

Just my opinion....

I'd say that's very harsh on SC. He may be ' old skool ' to you but in two seasons he made us from a league 2 bound outfit to a Championship one!

He's been the most successful City manager in my lifetime. You can't take that away from him!

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

It's not like that fella tbh...

SC did bring success in Promotion from League 1 in double quick time. And the records will show that. History can't be taken away...and his record will shine for that.

However...you can build success that is sustainable, and have a realistic long term plan, that most importantly is going in the same direction that was agreed with the rest of the Club...ie the board, Owner, Coach's and Academy.

This is where you are either a good manager...or someone that see's it purely as a short term fix.

Imo, you are not a good manager if you are bringing short term success, to the detriment of the rest of the Club.

That short term success of promotion was unsustainable, because of what was happening behind the scenes. It was falling apart...BIG TIME.

And this is why I don't rate SC...I don't like the man, the way he works, or how he conducts himself.

Like I said...the majority of fans will see the Promotion...but they wont see the carnage in it's wake.

What's the point of gaining promotion if you are wrecking the Club within, and taking it back down again. Because of poor management, pig headedness and not sticking to the agreed plan....as well as other attributes I wont go into.

Plenty of evidence last season on the pitch, thought we were simply appalling especially towards the end of his tenure, his comments post Derby made our club a bit of a laughing stock for a short time.

I have no idea whether SC was let down or he or the board was at fault for not doing business early etc but the way he acted by being so stubborn to make a tired point was a disgrace, his failure to play loans, not naming a full bench and so on.. he not only jeopardised his goodwill and credibility but also the clubs position in the Championship, we would've gone back down without much of a fight.

[Southstandoriginal]

Cotts was found out tactically at Championship level and may have been responsible for the hopeless transfer window, although we will never know the exact ins and outs of that. I for one am glad that he went when he did. BUT, at the time he was appointed he was exactly what was needed, someone who would make the players realise that they were among the best in the league and made them move the ball quickly and decisively. In other words an antidote to the timid tactics of SoD that were sucking the life out of the team and the fans. Here's to you Cotts, you made one hell of a difference!

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Lew-T said:

I'd say that's very harsh on SC. He may be ' old skool ' to you but in two seasons he made us from a league 2 bound outfit to a Championship one!

He's been the most successful City manager in my lifetime. You can't take that away from him!

See my last post as to the reasons why Lew :-)

59 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Plenty of evidence last season on the pitch, thought we were simply appalling especially towards the end of his tenure, his comments post Derby made our club a bit of a laughing stock for a short time.

I have no idea whether SC was let down or he or the board was at fault for not doing business early etc but the way he acted by being so stubborn to make a tired point was a disgrace, his failure to play loans, not naming a full bench and so on.. he not only jeopardised his goodwill and credibility but also the clubs position in the Championship, we would've gone back down without much of a fight.

The truth will never come out mate...best we move on ;-)

[Superjack]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

It's not like that fella tbh...

SC did bring success in Promotion from League 1 in double quick time. And the records will show that. History can't be taken away...and his record will shine for that.

However...you can build success that is sustainable, and have a realistic long term plan, that most importantly is going in the same direction that was agreed with the rest of the Club...ie the board, Owner, Coach's and Academy.

This is where you are either a good manager...or someone that see's it purely as a short term fix.

Imo, you are not a good manager if you are bringing short term success, to the detriment of the rest of the Club.

That short term success of promotion was unsustainable, because of what was happening behind the scenes. It was falling apart...BIG TIME.

And this is why I don't rate SC...I don't like the man, the way he works, or how he conducts himself.

Like I said...the majority of fans will see the Promotion...but they wont see the carnage in it's wake.

What's the point of gaining promotion if you are wrecking the Club within, and taking it back down again. Because of poor management, pig headedness and not sticking to the agreed plan....as well as other attributes I wont go into.

But he didn't take it back down again. Granted, he may have if he had stayed in situ... but we can all have our own opinions about what was going on behind the scenes.

You quite often talk a lot of sense on here... but your complete reluctance to acknowledge that we would not be anywhere near where we are now without SC is frankly nothing more than an embarrassment to yourself.

[spudski]

25 minutes ago, Superjack said:

But he didn't take it back down again. Granted, he may have if he had stayed in situ... but we can all have our own opinions about what was going on behind the scenes.

You quite often talk a lot of sense on here... but your complete reluctance to acknowledge that we would not be anywhere near where we are now without SC is frankly nothing more than an embarrassment to yourself.

Not so mate...I've said he gained us promotion. He did that. If he didn't do it, then someone else would have had to come in and do it.

When he left...he left us in the Championship with players, that some have gone on to prove can play in this league.

Regardless of what was going on behind the scenes...what summed it up for me, was when SC said 'he thought he couldn't go any further with these players'.

He leaves...and things improve dramatically. Even his sidekick JP changed everything and got the ball rolling.

Nothing wrong with the players Burt found for him.

The problem was SC himself.

But if you think us being 5th in the league has anything to do with SC's tenure, then I don't agree. So we can agree to disagree :-)

[shelts]

Cotts has no chance of getting the Villa job. I'm not going to go into the y and y nots or detract from what he achieved here. I'm sure he will find employment soon.