FA Cup, 3rd round draw

[JamesBCFC]

People still bringing up the Hull team selection despite the fact the vast majority of the players that day were first teamers and it was likely only 2-3 players off of what would have been picked if it was a league game?

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

Most of a very small minority, not majority I should hazard a guess.

The majority of football fans see modern football for what is nowadays. A squad game, and unless you are the likes of Shrewsbury, you aren't going to be putting your 'strongest' side out in Cup games. League takes precedence whether we like it or not.

Tbh...I couldn't tell you who won the League or FA cup last season...I'd have to look it up. Both Cups are fond memories from the past, however much the BBC try to make it all 'Romantic'. It just isn't the same any more...in the same way the National side is deemed less important by fans.

Sadly you are probably right Spud

But personally it drives me bonkers

As a club we have at present time , only 3 chances of glory - Promotion and the two cups

Why we sacrifice our chances in the cup competitions remains for me , personally , totally unnecessary.

The financial awards alone in the FA Cup sent to be sniffed at and perhaps more importantly can give fans one of their best days ever

in my forty of years as a City Fan my immediate and favourite memories are Leeds and Liverpool in the FA Cup in 74 , Beating Chelsea in FA Cup1990, Beating Liverpool at Anfield in front of 7000 away fans ,the run in the Littlewoods cup and the Semi ties against Forest in 89..... not the 5 / 6 or so promotions I've witnessed with the 76 promotion campaign being I guess the exception

The only time I'd understand / support resting players for FA Cup would be if we were in the top 2/3 with a genuine chance of promotion , but we are not

 

Whether resting players means we might finish , say 10th rather than 11th means nothing to me as a fan tbh

The occasional Cup run or even a great day out as Anfield in 94 will last a lot longer in the memory than a place or two gained mid table

if we aren't going to give Cup campaigns a shot , what's the point

Do we all have to hang onto some dream (Not a dream for me) that one day we will / may reach the (Over hyped , over priced etc etc) 'promised land'

Doesn't sound much to hang onto personally

if we aren't careful the real appeal of the game and the thrill of following your side and those odd magical. Days / nights will diminish for many 

Just my personal opinion

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sadly you are probably right Spud

But personally it drives me bonkers

As a club we have at present time , only 3 chances of glory - Promotion and the two cups

Why we sacrifice our chances in the cup competitions remains for me , personally , totally unnecessary.

The financial awards alone in the FA Cup sent to be sniffed at and perhaps more importantly can give fans one of their best days ever

in my forty of years as a City Fan my immediate and favourite memories are Leeds and Liverpool in the FA Cup in 74 , Beating Chelsea in FA Cup1990, Beating Liverpool at Anfield in front of 7000 away fans ,the run in the Littlewoods cup and the Semi ties against Forest in 89..... not the 5 / 6 or so promotions I've witnessed with the 76 promotion campaign being I guess the exception

The only time I'd understand / support resting players for FA Cup would be if we were in the top 2/3 with a genuine chance of promotion , but we are not

 

Whether resting players means we might finish , say 10th rather than 11th means nothing to me as a fan tbh

The occasional Cup run or even a great day out as Anfield in 94 will last a lot longer in the memory than a place or two gained mid table

if we aren't going to give Cup campaigns a shot , what's the point

Do we all have to hang onto some dream (Not a dream for me) that one day we will / may reach the (Over hyped , over priced etc etc) 'promised land'

Doesn't sound much to hang onto personally

if we aren't careful the real appeal of the game and following your side will diminish for many 

Just my personal opinion

I understand your feelings mate...and yes, back in the day, have had some great memories of Cup games.

It's just the way it is these days though.

Managers want to know more about their Squad players in under pressure games, and see Cup games as an opportunity to do this.

Plus a manager probably looks at the risk element involved. Does he risk an injury in a non Championship game?

I think managers and teams are judged on League games and not cup runs, even if they do some giant killing along the way.

Plus there is probably some stat out there, that shows on average, that a run in the cup is detrimental to league performance. It wouldn't surprise me.

Plus...whether we like it or not, the majority of football players these days don't particularly want to play in Cup games. They don't see them as that important. Maybe a generation thing. Lots of players in the past, gushed at memories of their favourite player lifting the FA Cup at Wembley. The majority of players now, don't have that 'memory' as the FA and League Cups have lost their importance for a long time now.

The Champions League is all they worry about Cup wise.

Funnily I was talking to some Academy players on the Train today. The FA and League cups were mentioned, and they all saw them as the games to which they hoped to eventually appear first in the future.

[Aizoon]

On 05/12/2016 at 20:13, bs3 said:

If we play a weaken team in the 3rd round and lose , I think OTIB will go into melt down.

Again.

[Unan]

The only people unhappy about the team selection vs Hull were the people that didn't go anyway. Anyone there knew we played well so I'd be surprised if many didn't come back.

[Lanterne Rouge]

In all fairness there are many ST holders who just don`t go to cup games. It wouldn`t matter what round it was, what it costs or who we were playing they just won`t go. All the years I sat in the Atyeo I was behind a family group of six ST holders and they never went to one cup game in all that time. If you asked why, they just said they weren`t interested if it wasn`t a league game.

[Hartcliffe red]

St holders £1

Members £5

Tickets £10

#packthegate

Surely better than 6/7k

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Hartcliffe red said:

St holders £1

Members £5

Tickets £10

#packthegate

Surely better than 6/7k

Nice principle but, under FA Cup rules, away supporters can only be charged more than home supporters if both clubs agree. As City have more season ticket holders, this scale of prices would benefit City more than the away team,so they are unlikely to agree unless a similar discount was available to them 

[Redstoke]

1 hour ago, Hartcliffe red said:

St holders £1

Members £5

Tickets £10

#packthegate

Surely better than 6/7k

Absolutely spot on i would say

 

[Bristol_South_End]

20 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I see, well here's some more 'nonsense' which you'll no doubt enjoy scoffing at.

It was a 16,000 crowd so suggesting 'thousands were infuriated' isn't outlandish at all. That would only equate to 1 in 7 or 8, a very reasonable estimate judging by the reaction to the starting line up of those around me at AG, the many comments on OTIB post match, and indeed a number on this very thread.

The starting team LJ put out was 2-0 down and only eventually created some real excitement, and 'gave it a real go' in the 2nd half after Tammy and Tomlin came on. So there's no validity in you suggesting 'the best 2nd half performance in the whole of October' was in anyway due to the failing starting line up - we only started to really have a go at Hull after 2 of our best attacking players were belatedly introduced. The storming finish to the game doesn't detract from the feeling of disappointment that we could have done so much better had we not put out such a weakened team.

In fact, imo., it only goes to underline that Hull were very beatable had we started with our best players.

What other Championship teams may or may not do in similar circumstances is of limited interest to me. Bristol City reaching that stage in a national cup competition is a very rare event ( this was our best run in the League Cup for 27 years) so LJ should have shown he was deadly serious about the match by picking all our top players, with the intention of taking the game to Hull from the start, rather than bringing on our most influential forward players as subs. in a desperate attempt to rescue a losing situation at 2-0 down.

Putting out a weakened team and (in the end) being seen as gallant losers may be enough to send some fans home content but for those of us who see a prolonged cup run as a potential high point of the season - rather than perhaps an inconvenience - it was a great opportunity which we failed to take seriously enough.The night, bar the last 15 minutes or so, was an anti climax in front of a noticeably subdued first half crowd on what should have been an occasion to remember.

There will certainly be City fans who, like me, will have seen that selection as being a real let down which they'll bear in mind when deciding whether to attend future Cup games where a similarly depleted line up may be picked, and that can't be a good thing for the club going forward.

 

 

I don't really understand how the fact that the crowd was 16,000 that night can equate to fans being infuriated with the team selection. The team is only announced an hour before kick off, so the crowd size wouldn't have changed at all that night if we'd have played our "league team". 

 

Arguably the team selected that night could put off fans for future cup games but we we're playing a PL team that night, whereas most fans would hope even our "squad players" with a few first teamers in there would be good enough to beat lower league opposition.

[Big C]

There may well be thousands who were a bit miffed with the Hull team selection but there are also thousands who were not miffed by the team selection. I'm sure there are thousands at every game that disagree with the team picked. Luckily its not a democracy and its just down to the manager to pick the side.

[Super]

9 minutes ago, Big C said:

There may well be thousands who were a bit miffed with the Hull team selection but there are also thousands who were not miffed by the team selection. I'm sure there are thousands at every game that disagree with the team picked. Luckily its not a democracy and its just down to the manager to pick the side.

The bottom line is we fielded a weakened team and lost.

[BBlockExile]

Unfortunately the die has been cast - LJ does not take the cup competitions seriously (team selection v Hull) hence there will be a very low attendance at AG in FA3 playing into the hands of our lower league opponents

[JoeAman08]

1 hour ago, Super said:

The bottom line is we fielded a weakened team and lost.

Hull didn't put their best XI out either. We played well and lost. We've done that in league games. No guarantees we would've won starting TA and LT. Taylor Moore looked the best CB on the pitch at times but seems we are picking out young players that didn't score or assist. The decision was made, we lost but some young players got some good experience. We had a chance to win and it was a nice night of football for me. It's over, it's happened so I don't know why everyone is banging on about it. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

21 hours ago, Griffin said:

The only people unhappy about the team selection vs Hull were the people that didn't go anyway. Anyone there knew we played well so I'd be surprised if many didn't come back.

Wrong. Read the thread.

[Nogbad the Bad]

7 hours ago, Bristol_South_End said:

I don't really understand how the fact that the crowd was 16,000 that night can equate to fans being infuriated with the team selection. The team is only announced an hour before kick off, so the crowd size wouldn't have changed at all that night if we'd have played our "league team". 

 

Arguably the team selected that night could put off fans for future cup games but we we're playing a PL team that night, whereas most fans would hope even our "squad players" with a few first teamers in there would be good enough to beat lower league opposition.

I didn't say it affected the crowd size for the Hull match - fans bought their tickets without knowing that Tammy, Magnusson, O'Neil and Tomlin would be left out.

16,000 fans weren't attracted by the prospect of seeing a fairly uninteresting Hull City team, they ventured out  in anticipation of seeing Bristol City giving everything to progress further in the Cup.

Now they know LJ's policy is to play a weakened team for Cup matches it may well affect their decision to attend Cup games in future.

You've said as much in your last paragraph.

[Chivs]

2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I didn't say it affected the crowd size for the Hull match - fans bought their tickets without knowing that Tammy, Magnusson, O'Neil and Tomlin would be left out.

16,000 fans weren't attracted by the prospect of seeing a fairly uninteresting Hull City team, they ventured out  in anticipation of seeing Bristol City giving everything to progress further in the Cup.

Now they know LJ's policy is to play a weakened team for Cup matches it may well affect their decision to attend Cup games in future.

You've said as much in your last paragraph.

Here's the thing: LJ could say he's going to play the tea lady at centre forward and Jon Lansdown in goal, and I'd still turn up to watch the game.  I just love watching City.  Not really bothered about the personnel.  As long as they try their best, I'm happy.

I'm surprised that, as a City fan, that you actually care about winning so much! 

[Davefevs]

On 06/12/2016 at 15:46, Nogbad the Bad said:

I see, well here's some more 'nonsense' which you'll no doubt enjoy scoffing at.

It was a 16,000 crowd so suggesting 'thousands were infuriated' isn't outlandish at all. That would only equate to 1 in 7 or 8, a very reasonable estimate judging by the reaction to the starting line up of those around me at AG, the many comments on OTIB post match, and indeed a number on this very thread.

The starting team LJ put out was 2-0 down and only eventually created some real excitement, and 'gave it a real go' in the 2nd half after Tammy and Tomlin came on. So there's no validity in you suggesting 'the best 2nd half performance in the whole of October' was in anyway due to the failing starting line up - we only started to really have a go at Hull after 2 of our best attacking players were belatedly introduced. The storming finish to the game doesn't detract from the feeling of disappointment that we could have done so much better had we not put out such a weakened team.

In fact, imo., it only goes to underline that Hull were very beatable had we started with our best players.

What other Championship teams may or may not do in similar circumstances is of limited interest to me. Bristol City reaching that stage in a national cup competition is a very rare event ( this was our best run in the League Cup for 27 years) so LJ should have shown he was deadly serious about the match by picking all our top players, with the intention of taking the game to Hull from the start, rather than bringing on our most influential forward players as subs. in a desperate attempt to rescue a losing situation at 2-0 down.

Putting out a weakened team and (in the end) being seen as gallant losers may be enough to send some fans home content but for those of us who see a prolonged cup run as a potential high point of the season - rather than perhaps an inconvenience - it was a great opportunity which we failed to take seriously enough.The night, bar the last 15 minutes or so, was an anti climax in front of a noticeably subdued first half crowd on what should have been an occasion to remember.

There will certainly be City fans who, like me, will have seen that selection as being a real let down which they'll bear in mind when deciding whether to attend future Cup games where a similarly depleted line up may be picked, and that can't be a good thing for the club going forward.

 

 

Well written side of the argument.

On 06/12/2016 at 16:27, Ashtonboy said:

Well written Noggers and exactly reflects my own feelings.

Yep, you won't be alone there either.  Personally, I was happy with the eleven that started, but also wondered 1) what might've happened had we started Tammy and Tomlin but also 2) might we have had a couple of players tired for the tough away trip to Barnsley on the following Saturday.  We might have forced extra time, and had 11 tired players.  Pros and cons.  As I said, I was happy with the side picked....actually, I wouldn't have minded Lucic starting.

On 06/12/2016 at 16:44, spudski said:

So we've got 3 games in 8 days over the holiday period... 2 away to Wolves and Ipswich of which an evening game, and then home to Reading. Four days later we play Fleetwood or Shrewsbury and certain people want what they consider our best players to be picked.

I suggest those people take their head out of their 1970's football bubble and see it for what it is.

The team selected, will be those deemed fit enough and good enough to beat whoever we are playing.

It's a squad game these days. Every player in our squad is capable of beating either Fleetwood or Shrews...hence playing for a Championship team.

If you don't give 'Squad' players a chance to prove themselves in Cup games, when else are they going to be given a chance?

We all know what our  regular 'First Teamers' can do, so why not enjoy watching what our non regulars can do against such opposition?

We all watch the 'first teamers' week in week out. we all know what they can do.

As a Bristol City fan, why not enjoy seeing our squad players having a bit of the limelight and a challenge under pressure?

I'd love to watch the likes of Lucic, Ekstrand, Brownhill, Moore, Engval, De Girolamo or any new January signing or Academy player etc.

I find it sad that a vocal minority only want to watch what they consider to be our very best playing. We are a Club, not just a first team.

Can just see it now...Tammy or Tomlin being hacked down by Adam el Abd for Shrews or such like...

 

Another well written view.  Both equally valid.

The one side of the argument that I think is worth discussing is terminology of first teamer v squad member.  My own view is that we've probably got 3 or 4 nailed on starters (Flint, Tomlin, Abraham.....Magnússon (?)), and then a group of players who are 'first teamers' but not guaranteed a start every week.  I'd add Fielding, although he's becoming increasingly more first choice, Matthews, Golbourne, Bryan - from the defence.  O'Neil, Pack, Smith and now Reid from midfield.  Paterson and Freeman from the wide midfielders, and Wilbs from the forwards.

Now for squad players;

Lucic and O'Donnell

Moore, because of age, Ekstrand, fitness, Little, playing because of Matthews (say no more)

Brownhill, age

O'Dowda, Di Girolamo, both age,

Engvall, age and adapting.

Now, I look at the first teamers and it mainly comes down to fitness and form, and any if them on any given day doesn't weaken the team.  You can then add the odd squad player without too much of an affect, but play all of them, and I'd suggest that is a weakened team, albeit it's not like sending out a rediculously weakened team.  We have the basis of a very decent squad that will mature.

 

[Up The City!]

7 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I didn't say it affected the crowd size for the Hull match - fans bought their tickets without knowing that Tammy, Magnusson, O'Neil and Tomlin would be left out.

16,000 fans weren't attracted by the prospect of seeing a fairly uninteresting Hull City team, they ventured out  in anticipation of seeing Bristol City giving everything to progress further in the Cup.

Now they know LJ's policy is to play a weakened team for Cup matches it may well affect their decision to attend Cup games in future.

You've said as much in your last paragraph.

I certainly expected a strong team to be put out, didn't LJ allude to this prior to the game?

Having watched the game I felt had we played the players you mentioned we would have easily won. I left the stadium that night feeling so frustrated about the game. I remember still being angry about it a few days laterbecause it really was a good opportunity for us to progress.