Lee Johnson signed up till 2020

[reddogkev]

32 minutes ago, phantom said:

For me just seems an odd time of the season and in his contract to have this extension?

Curious too as to what has been the trigger point for SL to put the new deal on the table?

Beating Ipswich 2-0 at home was clearly the deciding factor!

[1bristolcity]

41 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Recently we have had poor results despite playing well for large parts. It happens to all clubs from time to time.

We have competed in every single game so far, win, lose it draw, which is a very positive sign and we have moved from looking like certs for relegation to a comfortably mid table side in under a season. That is huge progress.

If we had said we wanted the title this season no doubt you would have been complaining we were aiming too high.

We were never going to set the initial goal this season as the title, but take it in stages, this season has been a rebuild- just look at the sheer number of players signed, then look at how young most of them are. 

I think you'll also find that in many leagues there are numerous clubs who initially say "let's get to safety before looking any further" regardless of how well they start the season, that doesn't mean their ambition is just safety. Of they are doing well as January approaches they will then likely spent a bit more than they may have before to sustain their form. You're looking far too narrowly at the whole thing.

Please don't tell me how to 'look' I have been looking for a great number of years at the season season by season under achievements of Bristol City FC. We are now the biggest City that has never had a taste of the Prem, and the likes of Swindon, Bournemouth and a few others have, far smaller clubs than us and a smaller fan base too. Some say it takes a certain type of manager to get promotion the the top flight, you know someone who has actually achieved that and is not such a daunting task.I really don't feel Lee has the necessary abilities to get us there, I hope I am wrong , I really do, as I like him. But you see this is how we roll at AG, lacking a ruthless streak, no doubt if we had a Steve Bruce at the helm or a Pardew, then the dream could be realised, instead we have to make do with excuses you listed.

It's all far too cosy, maybe that's a factor that the Rugby Boys are pathetic this season? Sports Bar, fine dining, etc, little or no atmosphere, we need to create a better mentality down there, with some sabre rattling, a bit of ;'nastiness' where's  Ian W these days? Get him alongside Lee, but that would never happen , ....not Steve's way is it?

Far too nice.

[1bristolcity]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

whats peoples problem with this? he's been given a year extension for good work on and off the field,

I take it those moaning about this are also moaning about flints new contract, he's only one injury away from never playing again and having a hefty payout from the club

I got a scouts badge for good work, 

 

This is football, the real type, not the stuff you fantasise over in your bedroom.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Well no one really knows the contract details. His original deal may have had certain performance elements that triggered an extension, the club may want to protect an asset, it may have included a whole host of elements none of us can understand. In the end, if LJ does not work out, it will not stop him being removed. But the club is changing, it is not a one man show, it is a collection of individuals , and we need them all to have time to develop and change this club once and for all. LJ is learning too, and he most certainly a better head coach today than he was last year, so I for one am happy for some stability , and for a new team to finally get this lead weight of a club into a solid championship performer. No more yo yo with L1. 

There is still a huge amount of work to do, the Academy has to be improved and we must get to tier 1 asap if it is to make any real sense. Otherwise we will lose the better youth players like Kane, Davies and Maddox for next to  nothing. ( the Prem clubs have it all their own way as a tier 2, they take none from us without any difficulty  that looks like they can become a Prem player ) . LJ needs to be also a driver in this , as it influences how we develop players for the future. 

I agree totally with your sentiments BW.

However I'd add, that there is probably more value to be found abroad, than there is in potential players through the Academy.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a big fan of the academy, and hope it gets to Cat 1. However...in theory it works, but how many teams do we see, actually giving these players a chance in the first team. the stage between Academy and first team player, needs to be made closer, if you get my drift.

For the amount of money spent on Academy costs, when you compare that to the likes of finding Magners and Kodjia and what they cost, and their final values, then I'd be investing much more heavily in the Scouting system, of which I know they are doing.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

55 minutes ago, spudski said:

I agree totally with your sentiments BW.

However I'd add, that there is probably more value to be found abroad, than there is in potential players through the Academy.

Don't get me wrong...I'm a big fan of the academy, and hope it gets to Cat 1. However...in theory it works, but how many teams do we see, actually giving these players a chance in the first team. the stage between Academy and first team player, needs to be made closer, if you get my drift.

For the amount of money spent on Academy costs, when you compare that to the likes of finding Magners and Kodjia and what they cost, and their final values, then I'd be investing much more heavily in the Scouting system, of which I know they are doing.

Which is what is happening. It was music to my ears to hear Tinnion say on Monday night that he now spends more time up at Failand than down at the Academy HQ.

[phantom]

3 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

We have competed in every single game so far, win, lose it draw, 

....... this season has been a rebuild- just look at the sheer number of players signed, then look at how young most of them are. 

But we need to do more than just compete?, we need to be winning the games we say we dominated etc

Like I wrote earlier - just curious as to "why now"?

 

@JamesBCFC your second sentence is just football BS, most clubs will push this line every year

I'm in no way against LJ getting the extension, just think when you look at the shelf like of any manager a 5 year contract could turn out to be a costly one

[phantom]

30 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Which is what is happening. It was music to my ears to hear Tinnion say on Monday night that he now spends more time up at Failand than down at the Academy HQ.

 

1 hour ago, spudski said:

For the amount of money spent on Academy costs, when you compare that to the likes of finding Magners and Kodjia and what they cost, and their final values, then I'd be investing much more heavily in the Scouting system, of which I know they are doing.

Indeed agree with you on that point @Kid in the Riot, but until we see these kids representing the first team at regular opportunities I would tend to agree more with what @spudski said above

The frustrating thing is for years we've been told the academy will do X,Y and Z in the future but still hasn't really justified the costs

Of course the other thing is, the more successful the first team get the bigger the step up for the lads in the academy and who knows how many years it takes to bring through someone at a higher level? 

[spudski]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Which is what is happening. It was music to my ears to hear Tinnion say on Monday night that he now spends more time up at Failand than down at the Academy HQ.

Indeed it is fella...couldn't agree more. It's been noticeable the difference since LJ has been here. Players from the Academy pushing on with the first team, and out on loan getting 'mans football'. It's that experience they need, once technique and understanding of tactics is engrained.

The only problem is the next move.

You've only got to see how many fans come on here, moaning about playing an 'understrength' team. They have to be blooded...they will make mistakes. But that's what has to happen. We can't expect players to come in and be top notch straight away. I look at Magners...loaned out to Cesena to learn and make mistakes in Serie B...that's the standard we are. So we have to cut our cloth to suit and blood these kids and let them make mistakes without getting in their face and moaning.

I can see LJ doing it more in the near future....hopefully when our league position is secure.

The only thing that's against us, are certain fans that don't get it.

 

[View from the Dolman]

11 minutes ago, Thatch35 said:

More cash to pay him when he's sacked. 

Somebody else who has read the contract. Why haven't I received my copy?

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

Indeed it is fella...couldn't agree more. It's been noticeable the difference since LJ has been here. Players from the Academy pushing on with the first team, and out on loan getting 'mans football'. It's that experience they need, once technique and understanding of tactics is engrained.

The only problem is the next move.

You've only got to see how many fans come on here, moaning about playing an 'understrength' team. They have to be blooded...they will make mistakes. But that's what has to happen. We can't expect players to come in and be top notch straight away. I look at Magners...loaned out to Cesena to learn and make mistakes in Serie B...that's the standard we are. So we have to cut our cloth to suit and blood these kids and let them make mistakes without getting in their face and moaning.

I can see LJ doing it more in the near future....hopefully when our league position is secure.

The only thing that's against us, are certain fans that don't get it.

 

Agree - I am surprised at the dogmatism of a fair few of our fans.

It's almost like some can't accept that football has changed.. getting 'stuck in', 442, managers who show 'passion' on the sidelines with plenty of yelling and screaming, laps of the pitch for pre season training, long ball football etc these things are old principles which have died out. 

So much short termism.. I also feel that - bizarrely - some will never truly accept LJ because they disliked him as a player and have so far been proven wrong about him.  They began to emerge when we had that dodgy period in October/November and will again if/when we undergo another tricky spell.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Somebody else who has read the contract. Why haven't I received my copy?

Well at least this thread gives you a good mental image, as to those who have some understanding of football, and those who haven't got the foggiest. ;-)

It's not worth arguing with Stupid, as they'll drag you down to their level with experience.

I just don't get how some people can say 'More cash to pay him when he's sacked'...when they don't know the contract details.

I really do believe some people think 1 year equals £1m...so 4 years must equal £4m pay out as an example. It's childlike and cringeworthy to say the least

[spudski]

18 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agree - I am surprised at the dogmatism of a fair few of our fans.

It's almost like some can't accept that football has changed.. getting 'stuck in', 442, managers who show 'passion' on the sidelines with plenty of yelling and screaming, laps of the pitch for pre season training, long ball football etc these things are old principles which have died out. 

So much short termism.. I also feel that - bizarrely - some will never truly accept LJ because they disliked him as a player and have so far been proven wrong about him.  They began to emerge when we had that dodgy period in October/November and will again if/when we undergo another tricky spell.

Unfortunately that's what football is dealing with, and it's not a small minority.

I cringe at some of the things I hear down the Gate. I'm not talking intricate stuff...but basics. Simple stuff, like keeping shape and possession when passing back etc.

The amount of people that go nuts, if it goes sideways or not forward is incredible. A basic understanding would certainly help...and to a certain extent put less pressure on managers and players.

It's a nightmare for a player, who's doing the right thing, keeping shape, keeping possession etc, to get boo'ed and abused for doing so. Can't be easy.

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

Well at least this thread gives you a good mental image, as to those who have some understanding of football, and those who haven't got the foggiest. ;-)

It's not worth arguing with Stupid, as they'll drag you down to their level with experience.

I just don't get how some people can say 'More cash to pay him when he's sacked'...when they don't know the contract details.

I really do believe some people think 1 year equals £1m...so 4 years must equal £4m pay out as an example. It's childlike and cringeworthy to say the least

Your getting on that pedestal again Spuds 

[Drew Peacock]

55 minutes ago, spudski said:

Unfortunately that's what football is dealing with, and it's not a small minority.

I cringe at some of the things I hear down the Gate. I'm not talking intricate stuff...but basics. Simple stuff, like keeping shape and possession when passing back etc.

The amount of people that go nuts, if it goes sideways or not forward is incredible. A basic understanding would certainly help...and to a certain extent put less pressure on managers and players.

It's a nightmare for a player, who's doing the right thing, keeping shape, keeping possession etc, to get boo'ed and abused for doing so. Can't be easy.

I always think it would be interesting to have an article or two in the programme about modern coaching and a technical analysis of the last match.  It would  help fans understand why certain things happen.

It would help me, I love following the ebb and flow of the game, appreciate the bits of technical skill, but don't always pick up on some passages of play - and I've been going down for 40 odd years!!  That is why I come on here after matches and look out for certain posters thoughts to fill in what I missed and I certainly ignore some posters.

[spudski]

51 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

Your getting on that pedestal again Spuds 

Don't mean to fella....but someone's got to say it.

People who work at the Club and the owner, read this forum.

How are they meant to respect the fans, when some come out with so much drivel.

I wouldn't dare comment on something I know **** all about, so why do some, make comments with such authority, when it's clear they have no idea what they are talking about?

How can you feasibly make comment about someone's contract, when you have no idea what it contains?

Not being funny, but it's a trait that some do, that really annoys.

 

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Drew Peacock said:

I always think it would be interesting to have an article or two in the programme about modern coaching and a technical analysis of the last match.  It would  help fans understand why certain things happen.

It would help me, I love following the ebb and flow of the game, appreciate the bits of technical skill, but don't always pick up on some passages of play - and I've been going down for 40 odd years!!  That is why I come on here after matches and look out for certain posters thoughts to fill in what I missed and I certainly ignore some posters.

Agreed...

Without sounding a total ****...when I read LJ's comments about us playing a less expansive type of football in the last game, it crossed my mind, that many fans wouldn't understand what he meant by that.

What is 'Expansive football'....how do you play it. What does it mean? etc,etc,etc.

Fortunately, I knew, as I've an interest in such.

However...unless you are into coaching or modern football techniques, and the way's of playing, then it will pass most by.

It's like when people get fixated with formations...it becomes apparent through a thread, that when they are talking 442 for example, they are seeing it, in a way it was played 20,30, 40 years ago.

It's very hard to reason or discuss with people, when it becomes apparent they don't understand modern football.

I read threads on here, and see other posters struggling to get their point across. They know their stuff...but they are banging their head against a brick wall many a time.

Tbh...I think fans across the board in the UK have very little technical knowledge compared to foreign fans in general.

Maybe down to coaching when younger, more coach's being in youth football abroad, or better technical analysis in the media abroad. But it is definitely spoken about in more technical terms in certain quarters abroad.

There is plenty of coaching 'manuals' and websites on the net, twitter, FB, subscriptions on modern football, if you care to look.

That's how I developed my knowledge at an early age. If I didn't understand something, I asked a coach or looked it up. Read books etc...now the armchair fan has a wealth of knowledge at their fingertips. It's pretty easy to find and understand now. I just get the feeling, unlike yourself, that a lot of fans can't be bothered, and are quiet happy chanting and making comments, regardless of knowing anything.

[phantom]

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

People who work at the Club and the owner, read this forum.

How are they meant to respect the fans, when some come out with so much drivel.

Personally I would hope that they realise that this forum has a REALLY wide spectrum of ages, background and knowledge, and unless there was a majority in agreement, like anything in life it is all about opinions - sadly as daft as some are

[phantom]

21 minutes ago, spudski said:

Without sounding a total ****...when I read LJ's comments about us playing a less expansive type of football in the last game, it crossed my mind, that many fans wouldn't understand what he meant by that.

What is 'Expansive football'....how do you play it. What does it mean? etc,etc,etc.

Fortunately, I knew, as I've an interest in such.

I don't mean this to sound insulting / patronising in anyway @spudski, but you could explain - as being from a different era possibly to many on here, it probably is an unknown to many - and would be educational to read too

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

12 minutes ago, phantom said:

I don't mean this to sound insulting / patronising in anyway @spudski, but you could explain - as being from a different era possibly to many on here, it probably is an unknown to many - and would be educational to read too

Agree it would be useful to read - especially for those more mature members

[1bristolcity]

46 minutes ago, spudski said:

Don't mean to fella....but someone's got to say it.

People who work at the Club and the owner, read this forum.

How are they meant to respect the fans, when some come out with so much drivel.

I wouldn't dare comment on something I know **** all about, so why do some, make comments with such authority, when it's clear they have no idea what they are talking about?

How can you feasibly make comment about someone's contract, when you have no idea what it contains?

Not being funny, but it's a trait that some do, that really annoys.

 

Who was talking of his contract?

 

Oh! Yes, you were.

[Son of Fred]

7 hours ago, Red_Wizard said:

I'm not dismissing him at all. And I wouldn't even call them achievements, perhaps even Lee would agree with that. We've moved forward yes, and looking more positive. But we haven't achieved anything yet. Hence why Lee talks about a couple of transfer markets to then "achieve" his set goals. I don't think many would disagree either that we aren't particularly playing fantastic football. Hopefully in the next two windows we add more quality to the team, and start playing the football LJ would like to output.

What I've seen this season we have played excellent football at times,sometimes with the result,sometimes not getting just return.

What we look for is consistency and making better choices.one or two experienced additions will help.

[Bris Red]

13 hours ago, Robin1988 said:

Realistically, this is a nice gesture but means absolutely naff all. City might play it as being part of the 'big picture' alongside Mark Ashton, but no manager/head coach is any more valuable than a bad run of form in this day and age.

Not really much more to say on the subject than that imo.

More a less my thoughts. In hindsight maybe my comments were a tad naive as of course I haven't seen the intricacies of the contract however the likes of Spudski  who are just simply dismissing the fact that financially we could get stung if he does go in the near future are also potentially being naive. None of us have seen the contract i think we can all agree on that so i dont think you can rule-out any possibility. I hope as a club we have learnt from the past but who knows.. were we not still paying Cott's off for a very good long while after he left..? 

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, bris red said:

More a less my thoughts. In hindsight maybe my comments were a tad naive as of course I haven't seen the intricacies of the contract however the likes of Spudski  who are just simply dismissing the fact that financially we could get stung if he does go in the near future are also potentially being naive. None of us have seen the contract i think we can all agree on that so i dont think you can rule-out any possibility. I hope as a club we have learnt from the past but who knows.. were we not still paying Cott's off for a very good long while after he left..? 

With respect...I haven't dismissed that fact at all. I've simply stated that we don't know what's in the contract, and gave examples of what can happen in a contract. It was aimed towards those, who have simply said...'We will owe him more money'...which in the same breath, holds with your last sentence. Why would you think we are paying off SC still? Because of something the Club have announced, or something written on here, that over time has become 'fact'...because that's what happens it seems.

53 minutes ago, phantom said:

I don't mean this to sound insulting / patronising in anyway @spudski, but you could explain - as being from a different era possibly to many on here, it probably is an unknown to many - and would be educational to read too

 

43 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said:

Agree it would be useful to read - especially for those more mature members

The best thing to do, as I could be on here all day...depends how deep you want to go...is to just Google 'Expansive Football coaching, technique, drills, play, understanding'.

There is a lot of information out there on how it might work...also depending on what formation or type of players you wish to use.

A few ditties...

 

The history of the English game is associated with physicality, classically demonstrated in a rigid 4-4-2 formation that assigns each player a certain role to play in the game. Defenders would traditionally consist of full backs and centre backs, midfielders would consist of wingers, holding midfielders, creative midfielders and so forth. The game has moved on from specialised positional roles and formed a sport based around the ability to adapt to certain situations with players being able to contribute to all aspects of play, be that in an attacking or defensive sense.

The perfect example of this evolution in football tactics is the dominant force in club football right now, Barcelona. They are the pioneers of the perfect model of a 4-3-3 formation defined by passing and positional play.

We will start with the attack – usually the combined trio of Lionel Messi, David Villa and Pedro. Not one of these three players spends the whole 90 minutes in a certain position on the field as Lionel Messi will often start out wide on the right but will regularly drift more central and swap positions with Villa for example. This gives the opposition more to think about and allows Barcelona to create opportunities through intricate passing and movement, allowing Messi more creative freedom in a match.

This is why Zlatan Ibrahaimovich was not incorporated into the philosophy. The Sweden international is a tall, skilful striker that holds the ball up well, which was a tool used to help Messi and Pedro play off him but it was his inability to adapt his game and move out wide that forced Guardiola to re-consider the system.

Ibrahimovich’s replacement was of course, David Villa and it is his efficiency at cutting in from the left or right as a drifting forward that makes him a perfect fit in this attack.

Xavi and Iniesta are the heartbeat of the side that dictate the creative aspect of the game but also press high up the pitch in order to sustain that positional balance high in the opposition half, allowing the attackers to create regular goal scoring opportunities. These two midfielders create the play as a pair, rather than relying on one playmaker to hold a high position and dictate the tempo. This is a role more suited with the old-style playmaker such as Riquelme or Rivaldo as these sorts of attacking midfielders meant team performance in a match would lie heavily on their contribution to the game.

These sorts of playmakers do not have as much involvement in the game as the modern playmaker as they sit higher up the field and only contribute to the offensive aspect of the game. This problem was demonstrated perfectly in Brazil’s recent 0-0 draw with Venezuela in the Copa America, as Brazil played poorly and created few clear cut chances due to their reliance on the performance of Ganso who put in a lacklustre performance in the hole between midfield and attack, a role associated with old-style playmakers such as Riquelme. It is not to say that Ganso is not a good player, as he is brilliant on his day but the performance of the team relies too heavily on his creative input. Modern football calls for a player willing to act as a box-to-box, ball winning play maker and that is exactly what Xavi and Iniesta do.

This is why Luka Modric is currently being linked with every big club in England because his diminutive figure gives him the opportunity to dictate the game in a more hands-on approach.

The new style of midfielder is a pure footballer, a more expansive one who can get from box to box, reminiscent of Roy Keane but who also possesses the vision and passing distribution of Paul Scholes at the same time.

It is also important to point out the contribution of Sergio Busquets in the Barcelona team as the supposed ‘holding’ midfielder contributes a great deal more than just protecting the back four. The 22-year-old acts at the starting point in the three man midfield triangle, distributing the ball to the naturally more creative midfielders. He plays a whole new role in the game than that of a classic holding midfielder such as Claude Makelele, who broke up play but played little role in the fluidity of the passing movement, like Busquets.

The midfield and attack are the creative force behind Guardiola’s Barcelona, which perfectly outline the future of the tactical game but it is also the defence that play a key role in this adaptability.

For starters, full backs were over time gradually becoming wing backs at the bigger clubs, due to their contribution in attacking play but with Dani Alves it seems as though he is almost a right winger at times. The Brazilian’s ability to control the whole of the right flank gives the attackers the opportunity press more narrowly and outnumber the middle of the park, as well as providing width at the same time. This adaptation of the right back brings a new dimension to the role as attacking prowess is becoming a key attribute in their play.

Unlike full-backs, centre-backs are associated with warrior-like figures such as Nemanja Vidic and Carles Puyol but it is noticeable that their partners in defence – Rio Ferdinand and Gerard Pique respectively, are both players with considerable ability on the ball who like to come forward and distribute play. This gives the team the opportunity to bridge the gap between midfield and defence by playing their way from the back. These defensive partnerships are not forged by accident but are down to the footballing philosophies of their respected managers.

Both Sir Alex Ferguson and Pep Guardiola are innovators in the tactical world of football and it is no surprise that they are the mega managers in the world right now.

The future of the game is being conjured by this modern wonder team of Barcelona and their concentration on footballers actually being pure footballers rather than just a right winger for example. The game needs to be played in a more fluid fashion and although a physical and rigid 4-4-2 might be effective for a team like Stoke City, at the highest level of the game it is just becoming too predictable.

This future of the tactical game may insure that players work harder to press the ball and constantly create movement for their fellow teammates but it also means that like Barcelona, there will be more freedom for players to roam from positions and create the football as they see fit.

The game is evolving and the new breed of players are too, as they must be able to adapt to the match situations and be more tactically aware on the field, rather than just sticking to their position and basic positional roles. This revelation at Barcelona is the benchmark for all teams and is the definition of a team game, a team game largely controlled by tactics and the ability to be more expansive in their play and that is what the future holds for football.

Maybe this...as well will help...

http://www.just-football.com/2012/06/positional-analysis-what-has-happened-decline-of-traditional-wingers/

Plenty of youtube and pdf's and books and coaching manuals on the net to read as well. Hope you find it interesting.

[Bristol Rob]

4 hours ago, Thatch35 said:

More cash to pay him when he's sacked. 

Yay! It's Thatch35!!!!!!!

 

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Yay! It's Thatch35!!!!!!!

 

Does that mean that the previous 34 incarnations were banned?

[Alan Dicks]

Stupid decision 

[Monkeh]

20 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

Stupid decision 

Why?

[JamesBCFC]

6 hours ago, phantom said:

But we need to do more than just compete?, we need to be winning the games we say we dominated etc

Like I wrote earlier - just curious as to "why now"?

 

@JamesBCFC your second sentence is just football BS, most clubs will push this line every year

I'm in no way against LJ getting the extension, just think when you look at the shelf like of any manager a 5 year contract could turn out to be a costly one

That's sort of the point I'm making though, he asked why our ambition was to make safety first ( even though it isnt) and the fact is many clubs go with an initial aim of safety, and then look to adjust from there. I was saying about the rebuild because that's one of the reason targets like that are set.

[Murraysrightplum]

I will boo

[JamesBCFC]

11 hours ago, Murraysrightplum said:

I will boo

But who will you be booing?