We are doing better than this time 12 months ago. Fact!

[TheCulturalBomb]

No, no, no. Improvement is continuing the same form from the end of the last season and the start of this season.. Like averaging top 6 points.. This has just been a downhill slope for months. 

[RumRed]

6 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

In terms of people saying about us spending £15 million this year, what are people's thoughts on the fact we have a net spend that is in the minuses? Does this matter...

For me we have improved the squad massively from last season, gained a lot of money for some fringe players and at the same time are doing okayish bar a terrible run which fingers crossed we can come out the other end of

My view is if we do drop back to the third it will be all for nowt.  The large majority of the team will be gone and we start the merry go round yet again.  It's tragic.

 

fingers crossed though.

[samo II]

We're talking facts, so here are some.

 46.

As of today, this is how many league games LJ has been in charge (run from 6 Feb and Charlton away, as was the day he was announced, and the victory is credited to him in most stats).  That is exactly one full Championship season.

It breaks down into; 17 wins, 7 draws & 22 losses, with 68 goals for, 61 against, so a difference of +7.

In terms of points that is 58; if running first game to last of a season, I'd suggest it would be enough to keep us up.

However, as an average, it breaks down to 1.26 points per game, and if you average that out over the remaining 17 left this season, you'd get 21.43 - rounded down and added to the current total, we'd have 52.  

I'm not 100% sure that'll be enough to stay up this year due to the relative form of the bottom half, though has usually been enough for the last few seasons (since Peterborough exited the league with 54 in 12-13 at least).

I present these with no further analysis, just that we now have seen exactly one year of 'Lee Johnson: Championship-level Manager' and have the data to back up what that looks like.

One thing I will add... before some wag sparks up again on bloody Rowett's record, I've laid out his first 46 at this level with Birmingham too;

Played 46 - W 21 - D 13 - L 12 - GF 58 - GA 51 - GD +7 - Points 76

That's a playoff-reaching points total in four of the last five seasons, from a manager with less relative experience at the time of hiring than LJ, and certainly less money spent in his first 12 months.

In fact, Rowett signed just five players for fees during that period; four undisclosed, one £75k (yes; £75k, not £750k), with the rest all loans or frees, and he moved on players like Zigic and Rudolph, who were likely amongst their highest earners.

As I always say; not advocating either LJ's removal or Rowett's employ, but let that please cut the throat of the "LJ's record is the same as Rowett's" nonsense, I beg of you.

[BS4 on Tour...]

14 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I'm not as scathing at the club for taking a punt on an up and coming British manager who had links to the club, in the hope of nurturing our own Eddie Howe, who by the way, 'failed' on his first attempt in the Championship at Burnley.

Eddie Howe took Burnley to an 8th place finish in his first season in the championship. How is that 'failure'??

 

[Natchfever]

9 hours ago, Bs4Red said:

In terms of people saying about us spending £15 million this year, what are people's thoughts on the fact we have a net spend that is in the minuses? Does this matter...

For me we have improved the squad massively from last season, gained a lot of money for some fringe players and at the same time are doing okayish bar a terrible run which fingers crossed we can come out the other end of

So we are doing okayish but are crossing fingers that we don't get relegated ?

 

[Alessandro]

52 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Eddie Howe took Burnley to an 8th place finish in his first season in the championship. How is that 'failure'??

 

I love how someone 'likes' this - come on guys don't be so lazy!  You're being slightly economical with the truth here:

I believe he inherited a team (just relegated from the prem) in 10th place in January and finished 8th that season.

The next season they finished 13th and when he left Burnley after just under two years, they were in 16th.

OK - not necessarily failure, but not necessarily progress? 

Eitherway, at the right club, given time and funding he has gone on to do great things. 

[Natchfever]

13 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I love how someone 'likes' this - you're being slightly economical with the truth here:

I believe he inherited a team (just relegated from the prem) in 10th place in January and finished 8th that season.

When he left Burnley the following year, they were in 16th.

OK - not necessarily failure, but not necessarily progress? 

Eitherway, at the right club, given time and funding he has gone on to do great things. 

Not really a comparison in my opinion though.

If we are talking Bournemouth, he gained them promotion to league One in his first spell, after saving them from relegation in his first season.

Then came his 2 so so Burnley seasons and upon his return to Bournemouth he managed two promotions plus survival in the Premier league all since October 2012.

I would suggest that LJ is no Eddie Howe at any stage of the latters career.

[Alessandro]

12 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Not really a comparison in my opinion though.

If we are talking Bournemouth, he gained them promotion to league One in his first spell, after saving them from relegation in his first season.

Then came his 2 so so Burnley seasons and upon his return to Bournemouth he managed two promotions plus survival in the Premier league all since October 2012.

I would suggest that LJ is no Eddie Howe at any stage of the latters career.

Hi Loon, I agree, it would be not be a great comparison. Which is why is wasn't. If the read the whole thread you'll see i'm not directly comparing LJ and EH.

I was using EH as an example of how tough the championship can be for a manager making a first step up from the lower leagues, even to a well run club like Burnley with premiership quality and parachute payments.

[Davefevs]

23 hours ago, RedRaw said:

And for balance, we didn't receive £15million for Kodjia as is being banded about.......it was £11million that may rise to £15million, based on what, nobody knows.....promotion this season? Unlikely as things stand.

Irrespective of balancing the books, we have brought in the equivalent of a new squad over the past 12 months costing in excess of £10million in initial transfer fees and yet we sit in 20th position, one place above and equal points with Burton Albion

Don't forget some if that 'profit' is payable to SCO-Angers

16 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

He's clearly implying he felt he wasn't good enough, hence 'there's room for improvement'. His tactical comment ( re 17-18'year old ) comes after that. 

Everyone is aware he often got/gets caught offside, he still does at Villa. But if you play on the last mans shoulder that is what happens. Just think how many times he timed his run correctly when he scored many of his goals. Also take into account the many times our midfield didn't release the ball quickly when he made his runs instead of taking an extra touch.

 

Hogan also gets caught offside a lot. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

4 hours ago, samo II said:

We're talking facts, so here are some.

 46.

As of today, this is how many league games LJ has been in charge (run from 6 Feb and Charlton away, as was the day he was announced, and the victory is credited to him in most stats).  That is exactly one full Championship season.

 

The stats really shouldn't credit LJ with the Charlton result.

He was at the game, but it was made clear (not least by LJ himself afterwards) that Pembo picked the team, tactics, formation etc. that day so really the victory has to be credited to him.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, Alessandro said:

I love how someone 'likes' this - come on guys don't be so lazy!  You're being slightly economical with the truth here:

I believe he inherited a team (just relegated from the prem) in 10th place in January and finished 8th that season.

The next season they finished 13th and when he left Burnley after just under two years, they were in 16th.

OK - not necessarily failure, but not necessarily progress? 

Eitherway, at the right club, given time and funding he has gone on to do great things. 

Not being lazy at all. Whilst at Burnley Howe signed Danny Ings, Charlie Austin, Sam Vokes and Ben Mee amongst others. 

He did fine in the championship and was far from a failure. You say he left Burnley in 16th place when he returned to Bournemouth. But that was after less than two months of the season and his 'team' eventually finished 11th, mainly due to the players he'd signed. So he finished 8th and 13th in the championship but returned 'home' when his mum died amongst other other personal troubles.

To suggest the 8th place finish doesn't really count because he only joined Burnley in January is the same as saying that LJ keeping us up last season isn't really down to him because he only joined in February...

[samo II]

9 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

The stats really shouldn't credit LJ with the Charlton result.

He was at the game, but it was made clear (not least by LJ himself afterwards) that Pembo picked the team, tactics, formation etc. that day so really the victory has to be credited to him.

Fair play, Nogbad - I'd thought similar, but I think because he was technically appointed that day most places included it, and made for a nice neat full season.

Will maybe revise it after Derby away to see if it stay the same (if we win) or it drops down a little.

It's not perfect anyhow; includes three games against Rotherham, and games against teams who were relegated, but still; was interesting to put together.

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Ok, I made a mistake, I had read that as the number on here about that run and mistakenly accepted it as true.

 

You ignore the point I made though about how his past could be span either way.

In your case as negatively as you can possibly make it.

As I explained I wasn't twisting you words, or putting words in your mouth.

 

For the third time now, I changed the quote to highlight how it can be span either way.

 

More to the point, you never answered my question, what did you expect him to achieve at those clubs?

LJ did no better than OK at Oldham and Barnsley as far as I can see, certainly nothing exceptional to suggest he was an outstanding young manager who merited being appointed head coach at a Championship club who's stated aim was to progress.

Even if City had earmarked him for their own reasons the losing run should have stopped them in their tracks with the realisation he certainly wasn't ready yet, and in fact the alarm bells should have been ringing that maybe he never would be.

I think we all know that no other similarly placed club would have dreamt of appointing LJ at that stage, and bar being a former player who was liked and rated personally by some of the board, you can be damn sure Bristol City wouldn't have either.

The appointment was a completely predictable disaster waiting to happen.

I know you're a keen young fan who makes a great effort to get to games and I respect you for that, and for your strong views and the tenacity of your replies.

However in this case you're fast approaching the stage where your unconditional support for LJ is looking more and more like an entrenched determination to defend the near indefensible.

The truth is for the good of the club we need change.

If you sit back and think for a few minutes before firing off another heated reply, I expect deep down you know that too.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

15 minutes ago, samo II said:

Fair play, Nogbad - I'd thought similar, but I think because he was technically appointed that day most places included it, and made for a nice neat full season.

Will maybe revise it after Derby away to see if it stay the same (if we win) or it drops down a little.

It's not perfect anyhow; includes three games against Rotherham, and games against teams who were relegated, but still; was interesting to put together.

Don't get me wrong Samo it was an otherwise a well compiled and interesting post. Just felt I had to point out that one thing.

[Alessandro]

16 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

LJ did no better than OK at Oldham and Barnsley as far as I can see, certainly nothing exceptional to suggest he was an outstanding young manager who merited being appointed head coach at a Championship club who's stated aim was to progress.

Even if City had earmarked him for their own reasons the losing run should have stopped them in their tracks with the realisation he certainly wasn't ready yet, and in fact the alarm bells should have been ringing that maybe he never would be.

I think we all know that no other similarly placed club would have dreamt of appointing LJ at that stage, and bar being a former player who was liked and rated personally by some of the board, you can be damn sure Bristol City wouldn't have either.

The appointment was a completely predictable disaster waiting to happen.

I know you're a keen young fan who makes a great effort to get to games and I respect you for that, and for your strong views and the tenacity of your replies.

However in this case you're fast approaching the stage where your unconditional support for LJ is looking more and more like an entrenched determination to defend the near indefensible.

The truth is for the good of the club we need change.

If you sit back and think for a few minutes before firing off another heated reply, I expect deep down you know that too.

 

You've suggested more than a few times now that the appointment of LJ was a disaster from the start.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but you don't need hindsight, you'll tell me, because it was so blindingly obvious that he would fail from the start.

Well I haven't owned a football club and I'd wager neither have you. Yet the people who do own the football club and have more experience in the day to day running of our club obviously saw something in LJ that you didn't. Either that, or they're incredibly stupid to miss the blindingly obvious. 

I wrote a little while back that from the turnover of championship managers in the last 6 years, less than 15% have managed promotion. So it seems lots of other chairmen and DOF with years of real football experience, have struggled in the same way to find the right man.

So either all these successful business men and women, who've probably hired and fired more people than we've had hot dinners, are incredibly stupid to miss the obvious, or perhaps you could take a moment, sit back and think that from your seat in the stands and your armchair at home on OTIB, it's not quite as simple as you like to make out. 

[samo II]

21 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

You've suggested more than a few times now that the appointment of LJ was a disaster from the start.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but you don't need hindsight, you'll tell me, because it was so blindingly obvious that he would fail from the start.

Well I haven't owned a football club and I'd wager neither have you. Yet the people who do own the football club and have more experience in the day to day running of our club obviously saw something in LJ that you didn't. Either that, or they're incredibly stupid to miss the blindingly obvious. 

I wrote a little while back that from the turnover of championship managers in the last 6 years, less than 15% have managed promotion. So it seems lots of other chairmen and DOF with years of real football experience, have struggled in the same way to find the right man.

So either all these successful business men and women, who've probably hired and fired more people than we've had hot dinners, are incredibly stupid to miss the obvious, or perhaps you could take a moment, sit back and think that from your seat in the stands and your armchair at home on OTIB, it's not quite as simple as you like to make out. 

My two pence on this; I don't disagree that the performances of the team at the end of last under LJ, and our pretty comfortable march away from relegation trouble made me pretty happy to see how he would do.  I was hoping he'd kick on from that.

I also agree that we only see a small portion of what LJ possibly brings to the role, and it does sound like he's very much involved in the plans to bring through youth and modernise things.  I'm all for these developments.

The problem is he's here as head coach, responsible for first team football matters, and not only would much of the work he may well be doing behind the scenes be undone or harmed if we are relegated, but also he is ultimately judged on how we perform on the pitch, which by most meaningful measures (results, basically) he is not doing very well with.

Yes, I'm also not a football chairman, so maybe am not on a position to make any form of comment, but as I've also said in response to people blithely insulting the 'masses' ability to understand tactics; I may not be an expert, but I can read a results sheet.  And that looks pretty damning right now, expect or no.

 

[JamesBCFC]

49 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

LJ did no better than OK at Oldham and Barnsley as far as I can see, certainly nothing exceptional to suggest he was an outstanding young manager who merited being appointed head coach at a Championship club who's stated aim was to progress.

Even if City had earmarked him for their own reasons the losing run should have stopped them in their tracks with the realisation he certainly wasn't ready yet, and in fact the alarm bells should have been ringing that maybe he never would be.

I think we all know that no other similarly placed club would have dreamt of appointing LJ at that stage, and bar being a former player who was liked and rated personally by some of the board, you can be damn sure Bristol City wouldn't have either.

The appointment was a completely predictable disaster waiting to happen.

I know you're a keen young fan who makes a great effort to get to games and I respect you for that, and for your strong views and the tenacity of your replies.

However in this case you're fast approaching the stage where your unconditional support for LJ is looking more and more like an entrenched determination to defend the near indefensible.

The truth is for the good of the club we need change.

If you sit back and think for a few minutes before firing off another heated reply, I expect deep down you know that too.

 

My support for LJ isn't unconditional, if we are on our way to relegation he should be sacked, but we are not.

 

I ask once again.

What did you expect him to achieve at Barnsley and Oldham?

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 hours ago, Alessandro said:

LJ was not my choice when SC left. I was underwhelmed to say the least so I totally hear everything you say. But I was happy to give him a chance and not dismiss him out right. Despite the 'damning combination' of factors you've emphasised above, this manager who struggled abysmally at a lower level guided us away from the relegation zone of the championship. Did you forget that? Many seem to have. Palpable success I'd say. And early signs this season were positive before the rot set in. For that reason I've been 'happy' for the board to give him a few more games.

But as I've said already, the step up has proved difficult for so many 'lower league' managers and is proving so at the moment for LJ.

My question is then, who would be your next choice when you've sacked LJ? 

Let's not look down below us, because we need someone with palpable success. Unless promotion from league two is palpable. If we look above, who is there that doesn't arrive with baggage and expectations beyond what BCFC can currently provide?

So I guess at some point, you have to 'take a punt' on someone, probably from the lower leagues or abroad, and one without much palpable success. I've talked about David Wagner in another thread, he didn't have anything on his CV before he came to Huddersfield. But they took a punt.

I guess what I'm trying to say Noggers is that although I concur with your sentiment, I'm not as scathing at the club for taking a punt on an up and coming British manager who had links to the club, in the hope of nurturing our own Eddie Howe, who by the way, 'failed' on his first attempt in the Championship at Burnley.

 

 

I admit I was pleasantly surprised by LJ's first few months, however he didn't take over a failing team, confidence and results were already at least partially restored under Pembo before LJ took over. It's only as LJ himself has gradually had more say in things - and that 'say' has been equally confusing and bewildering to players and supporters alike - that my original strong doubts have imo. been entirely justified. The more he has personally influenced things the worse we've got.

Who would be my next choice if LJ departed? I see this question every time a City manager is under threat of dismissal and don't see it as a fair one to put to an ordinary fan. We are very likely to limit our thoughts to obvious out of work managers, e.g. Rowett, whereas there are those at BCFC who are employed to monitor potential successors from not only Britain but all over Europe. That I couldn't give a list or name a particularly outstanding candidate doesn't mean there aren't many or that an obviously failing coach should be retained.

Pembo short term to stabilise, then, if he does, take our time, but with the avowed aim of getting someone else in longer term, because promoting from within is not only the easy option but one we've tried and failed with more than once..

I'm not scathing on the club taking a punt on an up and coming manager, links to the club or not, as long as they were chosen for the right reasons. That was never the case with LJ imo., his unremarkable and inconsistent record at a lower level simply did not merit such a job promotion. He was chosen for all the wrong reasons - 1 or 2 on the board liked him, he'd be untroublesome to work with after SC, he'd fit in with the club's job description and philosophy going forward.

All well and good, but performance and results on the pitch matter too, and LJ had done nothing in that respect to indicate he'd make a success of the job where it matters most. 

That's why he was the wrong choice, and yes, utterly predictably so.

[samo II]

14 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

My support for LJ isn't unconditional, if we are on our way to relegation he should be sacked, but we are not.

Genuine, non-confrontational question; what does this look like for you?

When does the threshold for this kick in?  I think even if we're still in touch (i.e. not cut adrift by four plus points), it is completely possible we'll occupy a place in the relegation zone sometime this month - would that be acceptable, or so we literally need to be looking odd-on for relegation before we move?

[Alessandro]

18 minutes ago, samo II said:

My two pence on this; I don't disagree that the performances of the team at the end of last under LJ, and our pretty comfortable march away from relegation trouble made me pretty happy to see how he would do.  I was hoping he'd kick on from that.

I also agree that we only see a small portion of what LJ possibly brings to the role, and it does sound like he's very much involved in the plans to bring through youth and modernise things.  I'm all for these developments.

The problem is he's here as head coach, responsible for first team football matters, and not only would much of the work he may well be doing behind the scenes be undone or harmed if we are relegated, but also he is ultimately judged on how we perform on the pitch, which by most meaningful measures (results, basically) he is not doing very well with.

Yes, I'm also not a football chairman, so maybe am not on a position to make any form of comment, but as I've also said in response to people blithely insulting the 'masses' ability to understand tactics; I may not be an expert, but I can read a results sheet.  And that looks pretty damning right now, expect or no.

 

Couldn't agree more mate. 

I'm not defending LJ nor trying to belittle the 'masses' at all, just simply saying in a roundabout way, it's very difficult to appoint a manager, so those who sit in their responsibility free comfy chair taking pot shots and saying it was obvious he was the wrong choice, "I knew it from the start" are showing themselves to have very little idea of the complexity of choosing a new manager. 

[Bs4Red]

3 hours ago, Loon plage said:

So we are doing okayish but are crossing fingers that we don't get relegated ?

 

I'm not, I have no doubt we will finish safely above the drop zone.

[Nogbad the Bad]

18 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

My support for LJ isn't unconditional, if we are on our way to relegation he should be sacked, but we are not.

 

I ask once again.

What did you expect him to achieve at Barnsley and Oldham?

I'm bothered about City, not Oldham or Barnsley.

As I said he did 'OK' at both those short term L1 jobs, but nothing like well enough at either to be seriously under consideration for the much bigger, higher profile, higher pressure task of managing Bristol City at Championship level..

[Alessandro]

8 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I admit I was pleasantly surprised by LJ's first few months, however he didn't take over a failing team, confidence and results were already at least partially restored under Pembo before LJ took over. It's only as LJ himself has gradually had more say in things - and that 'say' has been equally confusing and bewildering to players and supporters alike - that my original strong doubts have imo. been entirely justified. The more he has personally influenced things the worse we've got.

Who would be my next choice if LJ departed? I see this question every time a City manager is under threat of dismissal and don't see it as a fair one to put to an ordinary fan. We are very likely to limit our thoughts to obvious out of work managers, e.g. Rowett, whereas there are those at BCFC who are employed to monitor potential successors from not only Britain but all over Europe. That I couldn't give a list or name a particularly outstanding candidate doesn't mean there aren't many or that an obviously failing coach should be retained.

Pembo short term to stabilise, then, if he does, take our time, but with the avowed aim of getting someone else in longer term, because promoting from within is not only the easy option but one we've tried and failed with more than once..

I'm not scathing on the club taking a punt on an up and coming manager, links to the club or not, as long as they were chosen for the right reasons. That was never the case with LJ imo., his unremarkable and inconsistent record at a lower level simply did not merit such a job promotion. He was chosen for all the wrong reasons - 1 or 2 on the board liked him, he'd be untroublesome to work with after SC, he'd fit in with the club's job description and philosophy going forward.

All well and good, but performance and results on the pitch matter too, and LJ had done nothing in that respect to indicate he'd make a success of the job where it matters most. 

That's why he was the wrong choice, and yes, utterly predictably so.

Although I agree with a lot of what you say, we've gone slightly round in circles though, see my reply 30 odd minutes ago regarding your opinion of his appointment.

Eitherway, we are singing from the same hymn sheet of course, but regardless LJ is still our manager and still has the possibility of turning things around. Although you know already that won't happen!   

[Jin]

3 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Eddie Howe took Burnley to an 8th place finish in his first season in the championship. How is that 'failure'??

 

 

 

His first season at Burnley he was appointed in January whilst the team were 9th. They finished 8th so a slight improvement but perhaps Burnley's aim for the season was to get at least a playoff spot? They were in the prem the previous season so you'd think so. Perhaps he could have done that or even better if he was there from the start of the season? The following season they finished 13th so that could have been deemed as a failure but that's something the club would have decided. Wiki says he left for personal reasons so maybe Burnley were willing to stick by him?

By the way, I'm no Burnley expert, I found all that on Wiki but I had a feeling Burnley were in the prem the season before he arrived.   

[BS4 on Tour...]

8 minutes ago, CityLew said:

His first season at Burnley he was appointed in January whilst the team were 9th. They finished 8th so a slight improvement but perhaps Burnley's aim for the season was to get at least a playoff spot? They were in the prem the previous season so you'd think so. Perhaps he could have done that or even better if he was there from the start of the season? The following season they finished 13th so that could have been deemed as a failure but that's something the club would have decided. Wiki says he left for personal reasons so maybe Burnley were willing to stick by him?

By the way, I'm no Burnley expert, I found all that on Wiki but I had a feeling Burnley were in the prem the season before he arrived.   

While Eddie Howe was at Burnley he signed Danny Ings, Charlie Austin, Sam Vokes and Ben Mee as well as others. So he laid some pretty solid foundations for the club.

And I don't think 13th in his first full season in charge at championship level is failure.

[JamesBCFC]

15 minutes ago, samo II said:

Genuine, non-confrontational question; what does this look like for you?

When does the threshold for this kick in?  I think even if we're still in touch (i.e. not cut adrift by four plus points), it is completely possible we'll occupy a place in the relegation zone sometime this month - would that be acceptable, or so we literally need to be looking odd-on for relegation before we move?

At the moment? It looks like a severe blip that seems to be coming to an end. For many games we played well but lost due to individual players. Considering that over his entire time here our record is still that of a top 10 side, it suggests 

Baring in mind the 17 or so games left, if we were in Wigans position I'd be saying to get rid. They are certainly not odds on for the drop. If Blackburn didn't have a game in hand over Burton I might have said them, but the fact that for several weeks the results went against us despite the performance gives a reason to think things will improve.

Against Rotherham we played poor but won. That is entirely to be expected, when a team low on confidence and on a terrible run finally gets a win, it is, more often than not, a poor performance, but a foundation to build on.

Our next 5 games are tough on paper, but we picked up 10 points from them earlier this season, our players know they have itt in them to beat these sides (or at least not lose in Derbys case) the odd one out being Newcastle.

[View from the Dolman]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

While Eddie Howe was at Burnley he signed Danny Ings, Charlie Austin, Sam Vokes and Ben Mee as well as others. So he laid some pretty solid foundations for the club.

And I don't think 13th in his first full season in charge at championship level is failure.

What is the failure threshold for anyone's first full season in the Championship then...?

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Although I agree with a lot of what you say, we've gone slightly round in circles though, see my reply 30 odd minutes ago regarding your opinion of his appointment.

Eitherway, we are singing from the same hymn sheet of course, but regardless LJ is still our manager and still has the possibility of turning things around. Although you know already that won't happen!   

I'm not disagreeing that choosing a new manager is far from a simple task.

Luck, who's available at the time, and appointing the right man at the right time, e.g SC, can all play a big part and even the most likely looking and well received candidate may disappoint, as we know.

However you can lessen the chances of getting things wrong by due dilligence, ensuring you appoint for all the right reasons, and keeping emotion out of the equation.

Fans will accept even then it may not work out for any number of unforseeable reasons.

When it is clear though that a huge gamble has been taken, apparently on the basis of fingers crossed and certainly imo. for all the wrong underlying reasons, which dictate that frustration and failure are predictably likely, they will naturally be less understanding and forgiving.

[Inactive user]

17 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Numerous Barnsley fans have made it very clear he had almost no say in their signings.  

 

I wonder if that's any different here?

[Jin]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

While Eddie Howe was at Burnley he signed Danny Ings, Charlie Austin, Sam Vokes and Ben Mee as well as others. So he laid some pretty solid foundations for the club.

And I don't think 13th in his first full season in charge at championship level is failure.

 

Fair enough, good signings.

Cool. The club may have thought it was because they went from 8th in 11/12 to 13th in 12/13 and the season before they were in the prem. If Burnley's aim was to get promoted then he failed, no doubt about it.