We are doing better than this time 12 months ago. Fact!

[Bcfc90]

On 06/02/2017 at 09:45, RedRaw said:

£16million+ spent for an additional 6 points........yep, real progress

So your not taking into account the kodjia sale? 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Full nelson said:

You want progression!! Look at how Huddersfield are taking the piss out of us, two equal teams last season and now look at the gap! 

 

Huddersfield are having a cracking season. No doubt about it. But their points total for last 4 seasons in the championship read: 58,53,55,51. Hardly progression?

So they have finished lower mid table for 4 years and then have seemingly hit the jackpot that every chairman wants, by plucking an unproven, unknown manager (cheap option) from a German second team who has galvanised the squad to punch well above their weight. Lucky them.

If they don't get promoted this season, which is a big ask, I could very easily see David Wagner moving on, along with some of their top foreign talent and Huddersfield FC will look a very different place. 

[RedRaw]

2 hours ago, Alessandro said:

DC has done a great job over at the Rovers. He has however had almost 3 years in the hot seat, compared to LJ's 1 here, with us being in a much much tougher division. Actually there are many success stories of managers doing well with limited funds in the lower leagues, DC at Rovers, Rowett at Burton, Ainsworth at Wycombe, Tisdale at Exeter, Alexander at Fleetwood, Flitcroft at Bury (before the sack) to name a few. I think the step up to the championship and beyond however is a very tough one, and not often done. JFH being a good example of someone who won promotion at league 2 and struggled in the championship at QPR.

Regarding transfers, as I said, several of the players were signed for the future and not enough was done for the here and now until January when the club did their best to rectify that. The young ones need more time to develop and what has also cost us is the underachieving 'senior' players. Matthews and GON for example. Lee Tomlin, bless his heart, was always going to be a gamble given his past and has by all accounts brought more mental 'baggage' than expected and is underachieving on the pitch.

So is the squad underachieving? People will debate that of course, but yes we probably are. My argument would be though that it has gone undergone a huge overhaul, it's only been a 'squad' for 6 months or less now. Our league 1 championship team (that wasn't good enough for large parts of last season) is all but gone. So we need to give time for these new players to settle and gel. That is why I believe that if the time is given, providing the results don't continue to follow the pattern of the last few months, this squad will be turned around.

To be succinct, I don't necessarily have a problem with the quality and depth of our squad......just with the quality and application of LJ's coaching, tactical and man-management skills

[RedRaw]

1 hour ago, Bcfc90 said:

So your not taking into account the kodjia sale? 

 

On ‎06‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 11:41, RedRaw said:

Yes, great news for the bean counters but from a football / on the pitch perspective, an outlay of £16m+ (fees, agents, signing on....not counting increased wage bill) has not brought sufficient improvement and when you consider the quality of some of the players brought in, you can only put the lack of improvement down to coaching

 

5 hours ago, RedRaw said:

And for balance, we didn't receive £15million for Kodjia as is being banded about.......it was £11million that may rise to £15million, based on what, nobody knows.....promotion this season? Unlikely as things stand.

Irrespective of balancing the books, we have brought in the equivalent of a new squad over the past 12 months costing in excess of £10million in initial transfer fees and yet we sit in 20th position, one place above and equal points with Burton Albion

I think this covers it.........do keep up

[Portland Bill]

6 hours ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Way to spin it as usual... what he said was he had the tactical awareness of a 17 year old. He was constantly caught offside on numerous occasions so clearly he wasn't reading the game well.

Where did LJ say he wasn't good enough and in what context? Oh that's right he didn't say that.

And like PF said he improved towards the end of his time here so both the credit should goto LJ and SC

 

Here is the quote. 

Johnson said: "There is room for improvement and Kodjia will get better. At the moment, I think he is probably 17 or 18 years old tactically.

Room for improvement and will get better,  Which part of that statement tells you LJ thought he 'was' good enough? . Oh that's right he didn't say that!

No spin! Just you looking for another argument, you seriously have a problem when it comes to looking for one.

[Alessandro]

20 minutes ago, RedRaw said:

To be succinct, I don't necessarily have a problem with the quality and depth of our squad......just with the quality and application of LJ's coaching, tactical and man-management skills

And you have every right to! The results the last four months have been desperate. As I've said, I except the boards decision to give him more time to change that perception. I'm not particularly sure he will. 

 

 

[Superjack]

23 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Here is the quote. 

Johnson said: "There is room for improvement and Kodjia will get better. At the moment, I think he is probably 17 or 18 years old tactically.

Room for improvement and will get better,  Which part of that statement tells you LJ thought he 'was' good enough? . Oh that's right he didn't say that!

No spin! Just you looking for another argument, you seriously have a problem when it comes to looking for one.

I think that Lee Johnson is about 3 years old tactically.

[Inactive user]

18 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

aww bless , you two have found an ally

Great match  if I may say so 

A meeting of great minds !

Good one Bob.

I was just rather curious about you seemingly being so keen on establishing if Alessandro was a teenager or adolescent and if he was into A levels...

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

34 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Here is the quote. 

Johnson said: "There is room for improvement and Kodjia will get better. At the moment, I think he is probably 17 or 18 years old tactically.

Room for improvement and will get better,  Which part of that statement tells you LJ thought he 'was' good enough? . Oh that's right he didn't say that!

No spin! Just you looking for another argument, you seriously have a problem when it comes to looking for one.

But he didn't say he wasn't good enough like you said, room for improvement in terms of becoming more tactically aware which he needed to be. How many times was he caught offside last season?

As for your last comment, I think you're looking too hard into things. I'm simply I disagree with your comment, hardly looking for an argument is it 

[Portland Bill]

5 hours ago, RedRaw said:

And for balance, we didn't receive £15million for Kodjia as is being banded about.......it was £11million that may rise to £15million, based on what, nobody knows.....promotion this season? Unlikely as things stand.

Irrespective of balancing the books, we have brought in the equivalent of a new squad over the past 12 months costing in excess of £10million in initial transfer fees and yet we sit in 20th position, one place above and equal points with Burton Albion

Good post. We were told that one of the major reasons LJ was given the City job was his ability to coach and improve players. But, instead of any of this actually happening we have the comple opposite, we actually have got a chequebook manager. 

We keep getting told by certain posters that the academy is flourishing, then in the next sentence we are told that certain players were bought ( for fees of over a million pounds) in for the future. Sorry, but for the academy to flourish and produce players there has to be a pathway for them. Why block this pathway by bringing in players for the future?

Take away Smith and Taylor Moore,  I personally dont  believe anyone was bought in for the future. O Dowda was straight into the squad and playing at the start of the season, Magnusson and Engviall are already both full Internationals and Brownhill is clearly already good enough and has proved it. 

LJ has turned into how his dad was in his last season with us, signing ( his dads were loans) after signing, in the hope that  somehow things will get better. SL said a few years ago that he "took his eye off the ball" re the amount of players that were signed, and said he wouldn't let it happen again. That's why I think he looked to LJ this time around, because he believed what he was told, i.e. that LJ was able to coach players to make them better rather than just throw money around . I imagine he's now seriously considering if he's been had.

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

55 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Here is the quote. 

Johnson said: "There is room for improvement and Kodjia will get better. At the moment, I think he is probably 17 or 18 years old tactically.

Room for improvement and will get better,  Which part of that statement tells you LJ thought he 'was' good enough? . Oh that's right he didn't say that!

No spin! Just you looking for another argument, you seriously have a problem when it comes to looking for one.

One more point regarding Kodjia, you said that SC should deserve all the credit for his development?

Seemed to flourish more under LJ given the stats... Under Cotterill he scored 10 in 27 appearances, under Johnson 10 in 17.  (Last season stats)

So if you're going to give SC credit then LJ deserves a tonne of it to

[Portland Bill]

20 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

But he didn't say he wasn't good enough like you said, room for improvement in terms of becoming more tactically aware which he needed to be. How many times was he caught offside last season?

As for your last comment, I think you're looking too hard into things. I'm simply I disagree with your comment, hardly looking for an argument is it 

He's clearly implying he felt he wasn't good enough, hence 'there's room for improvement'. His tactical comment ( re 17-18'year old ) comes after that. 

Everyone is aware he often got/gets caught offside, he still does at Villa. But if you play on the last mans shoulder that is what happens. Just think how many times he timed his run correctly when he scored many of his goals. Also take into account the many times our midfield didn't release the ball quickly when he made his runs instead of taking an extra touch.

 

[MichaelRobartes]

Facts are facts.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

4 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

He's clearly implying he felt he wasn't good enough, hence 'there's room for improvement'. His tactical comment ( re 17-18'year old ) comes after that. 

Everyone is aware he often got/gets caught offside, he still does at Villa. But if you play on the last mans shoulder that is what happens. Just think how many times he timed his run correctly when he scored many of his goals. Also take into account the many times our midfield didn't release the ball quickly when he made his runs instead of taking an extra touch.

 

Regardless of how its interpreted, it seemed to do the trick... this was before the MK Dons game and he went onto score 10 more goals, so clearly improved or upped his game from then on.

[BobBobSuperBob]

21 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

One more point regarding Kodjia, you said that SC should deserve all the credit for his development?

Seermed to flourish more under LJ given the stats... Under Cotterill he scored 10 in 27 appearances, under Johnson 10 in 17.  (Last season stats)

So if you're going to give SC credit then LJ deserves a tonne of it to

When he had a 'at it' LT providing the ammunition 

[Up The City!]

This thread is going in a very strange direction. Who remembers when we signed all these players? Who remembers all the uproar when the signings were announced? No I don't remember it either.

We were somehow promoted with a very thin squad, SC completely messed up in the summer transfer window so we have been doing a combination of strengthening and playing catch up.

10 million in this league really isn't alot.

[Nogbad the Bad]

3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

 Actually there are many success stories of managers doing well with limited funds in the lower leagues, DC at Rovers, Rowett at Burton, Ainsworth at Wycombe, Tisdale at Exeter, Alexander at Fleetwood, Flitcroft at Bury (before the sack) to name a few. I think the step up to the championship and beyond however is a very tough one, and not often done. JFH being a good example of someone who won promotion at league 2 and struggled in the championship at QPR.

 

If the step up from managing in the lower leagues is so difficult, and so seldom achieved - even for managers who have been successful there - why on earth would Bristol City pin their hopes on an inexperienced lower league manager with no history of success whatsoever?

A manager who not only lacked any palpable success on his short CV, but who even struggled abysmally at that lower level with a terrible losing run only a couple of months before joining us?

Surely such a damning combination should have set the alarm bells ringing and ruled him out even as a possibility?

Those who determinedly ignored such obvious warning signs, and even went on to attempt to spin the acquisition of such a totally predictable failure into some sort of great capture for BCFC, built a rod for their own backs and the sooner they lighten the heavy burden they imposed on all of us by their unfathomable decision and admit their mistake the better for everyone connected with Bristol City.

[Alessandro]

38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If the step up from managing in the lower leagues is so difficult, and so seldom achieved - even for managers who have been successful there - why on earth would Bristol City pin their hopes on an inexperienced lower league manager with no history of success whatsoever?

A manager who not only lacked any palpable success on his short CV, but who even struggled abysmally at that lower level with a terrible losing run only a couple of months before joining us?

Surely such a damning combination should have set the alarm bells ringing and ruled him out even as a possibility?

Those who determinedly ignored such obvious warning signs, and even went on to attempt to spin the acquisition of such a totally predictable failure into some sort of great capture for BCFC, built a rod for their own backs and the sooner they lighten the heavy burden they imposed on all of us by their unfathomable decision and admit their mistake the better for everyone connected with Bristol City.

LJ was not my choice when SC left. I was underwhelmed to say the least so I totally hear everything you say. But I was happy to give him a chance and not dismiss him out right. Despite the 'damning combination' of factors you've emphasised above, this manager who struggled abysmally at a lower level guided us away from the relegation zone of the championship. Did you forget that? Many seem to have. Palpable success I'd say. And early signs this season were positive before the rot set in. For that reason I've been 'happy' for the board to give him a few more games.

But as I've said already, the step up has proved difficult for so many 'lower league' managers and is proving so at the moment for LJ.

My question is then, who would be your next choice when you've sacked LJ? 

Let's not look down below us, because we need someone with palpable success. Unless promotion from league two is palpable. If we look above, who is there that doesn't arrive with baggage and expectations beyond what BCFC can currently provide?

So I guess at some point, you have to 'take a punt' on someone, probably from the lower leagues or abroad, and one without much palpable success. I've talked about David Wagner in another thread, he didn't have anything on his CV before he came to Huddersfield. But they took a punt.

I guess what I'm trying to say Noggers is that although I concur with your sentiment, I'm not as scathing at the club for taking a punt on an up and coming British manager who had links to the club, in the hope of nurturing our own Eddie Howe, who by the way, 'failed' on his first attempt in the Championship at Burnley.

 

 

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Regardless of how its interpreted, it seemed to do the trick... this was before the MK Dons game and he went onto score 10 more goals, so clearly improved or upped his game from then on.

LJ couldn't have thought so though,otherwise why play  him out wide hogging the touchline in the first few games of this season. Yet another bizarre decision, is it any wonder that he then decided he wanted to leave. 

[JamesBCFC]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

He's clearly implying he felt he wasn't good enough, hence 'there's room for improvement'. His tactical comment ( re 17-18'year old ) comes after that. 

Everyone is aware he often got/gets caught offside, he still does at Villa. But if you play on the last mans shoulder that is what happens. Just think how many times he timed his run correctly when he scored many of his goals. Also take into account the many times our midfield didn't release the ball quickly when he made his runs instead of taking an extra touch.

 

Abraham has room for improvement, does that make him not good enough?

Rashford has room for improvement, is he not good enough?

 

Someone having "room for improvement" is not even close to being the same as "not good enough".

Having room for improvement means- get this- they can improve.

It is entirely possible for someone to be "good enough" and be able to improve.

 

Instead of taking the words at face value you have decided to interpret them in your own way in order to slag off the coach.

[JamesBCFC]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

A manager who not only never had the opportunity to go for any palpable success on his short CV, but who took a team on a run of 8 consecutive wins and secured them a place at Wembley immediately before joining us?

Just showing you how you can spin his past managerial career either way.

 

No he didn't have any success at Oldham or Barnsley in the way of trophies.

But tell me what success you expected him to have at those clubs considering he had to rebuild their entire squad and had almost zero budget to do so.

Oldham were in a mess and heading to League 2 when he took the job there.

Barnsley, he rebuilt their side, had that terrible run but then started their push to the playoffs with 8 consecutive wins and took them to Wembley.

 

What were you expecting from him Nogbad? A World Cup win? The Copa del Rey, maybe the Asian Champions League?

[REDOXO]

1 hour ago, MichaelRobartes said:

Facts are facts.

Apparently the existence of 'alternative facts' had been established by the Trump campaign. Seemingly a notion endorsed on OTIB

[shelts]

So we are doing better then....we haven't wasted £15million then 

[Nogbad the Bad]

10 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Just showing you how you can spin his past managerial career either way.

 

No he didn't have any success at Oldham or Barnsley in the way of trophies.

But tell me what success you expected him to have at those clubs considering he had to rebuild their entire squad and had almost zero budget to do so.

Oldham were in a mess and heading to League 2 when he took the job there.

Barnsley, he rebuilt their side, had that terrible run but then started their push to the playoffs with 8 consecutive wins and took them to Wembley.

 

What were you expecting from him Nogbad? A World Cup win? The Copa del Rey, maybe the Asian Champions League?

James, if you're going to change my quote, and put words into my mouth, at least get your facts right.

8 was LJ's number of consecutive league losses at Barnsley, he later had 6 league wins in a row.

As for rebuilding Barnsley's squad, that's nonsense.

Numerous Barnsley fans have made it very clear he had almost no say in their signings.  

 

[JamesBCFC]

Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

James, if you're going to change my quote, and put words into my mouth, at least get your facts right.

8 was LJ's number of consecutive league losses at Barnsley, he later had 6 league wins in a row.

As for rebuilding Barnsley's squad, that's nonsense.

Numerous Barnsley fans have made it very clear he had almost no say in their signings.  

 

I changed the quote to show how his previous record could be spun either way. I then stated that in the first line of my post.

 

Who said consecutive league games?

[RedRaw]

41 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

What were you expecting from him Nogbad? A World Cup win? The Copa del Rey, maybe the Asian Champions League?

I'll tell what we all weren't expecting.......a record run of defeats and a relegation dogfight 

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

 

35 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I changed the quote to show how his previous record could be spun either way. I then stated that in the first line of my post.

 

Who said consecutive league games?

You're making things worse for yourself James!

LJ's best run of consecutive wins, if you're going to include Checkatrade Trophy results within the run - home draw v. Fleetwood - reduces to only 4.

16/1/16 Shrewsbury to his final game, 30/1/16 Swindon.

It's hard to imagine what persuasive spin could possibly be applied to explain a manager suddenly losing 8 consecutive league games when you're a strong club in that division btw., it's a statistic that should horrify any prospective employer!

Best keep to the facts and your own opinion in future rather than changing other people's quotes. 

 

 

[JamesBCFC]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

 

You're making things worse for yourself James!

LJ's best run of consecutive wins, if you're going to include Checkatrade Trophy results within the run - home draw v. Fleetwood - reduces to only 4.

16/1/16 Shrewsbury to his final game, 30/1/16 Swindon.

It's hard to imagine what persuasive spin could possibly be applied to explain a manager suddenly losing 8 consecutive league games when you're a strong club in that division btw., it's a statistic that should horrify any prospective employer!

Best keep to the facts and your own opinion in future rather than changing other people's quotes. 

 

 

Ok, I made a mistake, I had read that as the number on here about that run and mistakenly accepted it as true.

 

You ignore the point I made though about how his past could be span either way.

In your case as negatively as you can possibly make it.

As I explained I wasn't twisting you words, or putting words in your mouth.

 

For the third time now, I changed the quote to highlight how it can be span either way.

 

More to the point, you never answered my question, what did you expect him to achieve at those clubs?

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Abraham has room for improvement, does that make him not good enough?

Rashford has room for improvement, is he not good enough?

 

Someone having "room for improvement" is not even close to being the same as "not good enough".

Having room for improvement means- get this- they can improve.

It is entirely possible for someone to be "good enough" and be able to improve.

 

Instead of taking the words at face value you have decided to interpret them in your own way in order to slag off the coach.

I don't think LJ rated or wanted JK here, and his 'room for improvement' comment was not needed by JK. Let's face it, he also went out and got TA in as a direct replacement for him.

I also think telling the media your 20 goal striker has the tactical brain of a 17 year old (  why say things like this to the media ) was wrong and not something a coach should do. That's more of a 'slag off' than I could ever come out with on here.

 

[Bs4Red]

In terms of people saying about us spending £15 million this year, what are people's thoughts on the fact we have a net spend that is in the minuses? Does this matter...

For me we have improved the squad massively from last season, gained a lot of money for some fringe players and at the same time are doing okayish bar a terrible run which fingers crossed we can come out the other end of