What would it take?

[SStandUp]

I'm not a regular poster on here, but I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago that seemed to go down pretty well, so here it goes again. It's another lengthy read. 

I'm just curious on what it will take one day for fans to back a manager over a set of players? Not just at our club, but all clubs.

I was stood at the game last night watching one of the most pathetic footballing displays in absolute rage. But I wasn't in rage at our manager or other members of staff, but with a set of players who decided to offer a performance of that level in our biggest game of the season to date! I don't care who our manager is, or even if we were managerless, you have to dig pretty deep to justify or excuse a performance like that.

I'll get to my point now...

So on the back of last night, fans are suggesting players have stopped playing for Lee Johnson. Maybe you're right, only the players will know if that's true, but let's just say that is the case and they have stopped playing for our manager. So what you're suggesting is players are going out of their way to under perform for the manager, so therefore they are under performing for Bristol City Fooball Club, and therefore under performing for us/ you, the paying customer. With this in mind, why on earth do we continue to blame managers in situations like this and not the players? Simple - because we all know that players are untouchable/ unsackable, so the only option is to point the finger at the manager when things are going like they are currently at City, which is a sad sad thought. 

You can garuantee that Lee Johnson is working endless days trying to sort this mess out. A mess we are in because of the players. 

In my opinion, the players are still playing for Lee Johnson. Last night, they couldn't handle the occasion, everyone in that ground, fans, players etc, knew how big a game it was and we couldn't handle it. Forgetting last night for now, this current 18 game streak of poor form we are on is absolutely unacceptable, don't get me wrong. But if you take time and look back at these past 4months/ 18 games and look at each game individually (like I have), you will soon realise you'll be saying to yourself - how did we not win that? How did we not get atleast a point? We played well in that game, but didn't get anything! .. So then you think back deeper and ask why/ how we didn't win or get atleast a point. And more often than not, you'll realise it was down to individual mistakes/ errors, rather than us not playing well and getting outplayed. And that's what is the most frustrating thing about this situation, we have shown how good we can be/ are on a regular basis. But players have let themselves down, their performances down, their manager down, and the fans down all too often!

The Derby game is the most recent, but not the only example of this. 3-0 up at HT, playing unbelievable. Come out second half, but a decent performance in, but make 3 schoolboy mistakes to capitulate to 3-3. Now I'm very conscious of not under miming or disregarding others supporters opinions/ thoughts, however, you have to be pretty naive/ narrow minded to suggest the reason we slumped to 3-3 was down to our manager and not the players Incapabilities at important moments in the game. A lot of fans were laying it upon LJ, which I found absolutely ludicrous. 

My point is, I was at the game last night, listening to Johnson out chants, and felt pretty sorry for the bloke. In the majority of games this season, he has set us up well and got a good performance out of this side, but has been let down in most of them with very basic player errors. Yet the only person being blamed for this current situation, is Lee Johnson!

The question is, when will fans see the bigger picture of this situation and stop taking the easy option of scapegoating the manager/ Lee Johnson. Because that's what it is, an easy option, because we know as previously mentioned, players are untouchable. But this shouldn't mean we automatically blame the manager. Because in this specific situation at City, when we look back at the bigger picture, our manager has been doing a decent job of getting performances, and has no doubt been let down. 

Up the City x

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Players are obviously culpable but 

They don't believe in LJ

They aren't playing for him

He has done as well as anyone to suck any confidence out of them with his outing of players , muddled selections and tactics

Unless you want to sack the whole squad as well as LJ , not sure what you're suggesting

 

Do I take it that you think LJ is a good head coach ?

[woodsy62]

The buck stops with him and our recent run has been dire should of gone after the Cardiff game.The chopping and changing and the playing of players out of position speaks volumes

[SStandUp]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Players are obviously culpable but 

They don't believe in LJ

They aren't playing for him

He has done as well as anyone to suck any confidence out of them with his outing of players , muddled selections and tactics

Unless you want to sack the whole squad as well as LJ , not sure what you're suggesting

 

Do I take it that you think LJ is a good head coach ?

In literally our previous 2 games before last night (Derby & Leeds) your suggesting the players weren't playing for him? Derby we should of won comfortably with the performance we put in and Leeds we deserved a point. 

Youve done pretty well to miss every point I was trying to make.

Onviously sacking the squad isn't an option, as they are untouchable. But that doesn't mean we therefore should sack a manager who if regularly getting performances out of them? 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, ForeverRes said:

In literally our previous 2 games before last night (Derby & Leeds) your suggesting the players weren't playing for him? Derby we should of won comfortably with the performance we put in and Leeds we deserved a point. 

Youve done pretty well to miss every point I was trying to make.

Onviously sacking the squad isn't an option, as they are untouchable. But that doesn't mean we therefore should sack a manager who if regularly getting performances out of them? 

?    

[Sir Leigh of Somerset]

ForeverDeluded!

[Fontaineofallknowledge]

Piffle. It is the managers job to instil confidence, organisation and motivate the team. He also trains and gets his philosophy across to the players so that they play the style that he wants. 

The team last night had not confidence, pattern of play or even aggression which has to come from the manager. 

Can you imagine a Warnock or pulis side putting on such a pathetic, meek display as last night? We need to get nasty and that starts with SL pulling the trigger!

 

[SStandUp]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

?    

What are you so confused about? You're telling me you haven't left most home games frustrated because we deserved a result based on performances, but haven't got anything because of mistakes. Reading, Cardiff, Brentford just to name a few 

[woodsy62]

2 minutes ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

Piffle. It is the managers job to instil confidence, organisation and motivate the team. He also trains and gets his philosophy across to the players so that they play the style that he wants. 

The team last night had not confidence, pattern of play or even aggression which has to come from the manager. 

Can you imagine a Warnock or pulis side putting on such a pathetic, meek display as last night? We need to get nasty and that starts with SL pulling the trigger!

 

Couldn't see the tea cups flying around in our dressing room I really do think the players have given up

[KeepUpLino]

2 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

What are you so confused about? You're telling me you haven't left most home games frustrated because we deserved a result based on performances, but haven't got anything because of mistakes. Reading, Cardiff, Brentford just to name a few 

Why is it so bloody hard to understand that as a manager comes responsibility.. responsibility for signings, responsibility for success and ultimately responsibility for failure!!!

[milo1111]

The OP makes a few good points and obviously the players are at fault also but LJ signed many of them. He also signed half a new team in jan and is doing the same with them.

[CityCiderEd]

10 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

What are you so confused about? You're telling me you haven't left most home games frustrated because we deserved a result based on performances, but haven't got anything because of mistakes. Reading, Cardiff, Brentford just to name a few 

In the Brentford game Scott Hogan missed 3 one on ones,they could have been out of sight even though we weren't terrible.We are so unorganised and predictable and we set up more not to lose than win a game.

[Davefevs]

@ForeverRes a lot of sense in what you post, and also on what responses you got back.

i haven't commented much on last night's game, I will in a bit, but we haven't played well all season, nor have we played badly, apart from a few games.  We have rarely put together a 90 minute performance though.  We got away with it early in the season and are getting punished by it since.

Last night I can't understand that we go into a game against a team that play 451, pass it around a lot, then we appear to be able to do little about it.  I'm no genius, but I knew that Cairney and MacDonald will run a game if you give them time on the ball, and that's exactly what we did.  The Fulham side on paper was much weaker than I expected, no Martin, no Aluko, no Fredericks (yes, him).

Did the players fail to carry out the Head Coaches instructions?  If so, then don't play them.  We have a big enough squad to find 11 that will take their opportunity.  If they were following instructions, then I fear LJ will never achieve the future that was predicted if him.

Anyone who's read my posts will know that I'm not one to go big on formations, so I'm not gonna react to Fulham's 451 and say we should've matched them up.  Our 442 should've had exploited weaknesses in their formation, just like theirs did to ours.  There is no magic formation (despite what Football Manager might think).  Any formation has pros and cons and these change depending on what is matched up against them.

So, getting all theoretical, we played 442 against their 451.  Ignoring individuals and their qualities, where would we have advantages over them?

Assuming Wright and Flint can cover their one striker, our full-backs ought to have been able to help the midfield, and suddenly we have a 6 against their 5.  It felt like they outnumbered us, didn't it.

So who wasn't doing their job?

Too often we had 3 marking 1 (that was a big part of the problem) and therefore they had 1 man numerical advantage over us somewhere else, sometimes in midfield, sometimes against our full-backs.

It was just plain wrong.

I felt sorry (a bit) for our players because they couldn't press at high intensity, because they couldn't do it in 3s and 4s, because they were getting picked off.  You can only close down on your own so many times before you knacker yourself. We had too many doing it in their own.

We then moved Taylor left forward, so Djuric had no partner (the failing of the Tammy / Djuric partnership).  LJ throws the gameplan out of the window after 30-odd minutes, going a sort of 433.  He should've stuck with it and identified the 3 men marking 1, and sorted them out.  It wasn't the same 3, so no-one on pitch sorting and organising each other.

Cotterill was effective 1st half, so part of the plan was working.  Bryan almost got in a couple of times, so our 442 would work if we could get on the ball.  When we didn't have it, we were awful.  LJ needed to find a way of getting the ball off of them.

Second half was basketball without much action in the 'key'

I can promise you formations isnt the answer.  Flettwood, we matched their 532 and yet they still passed it around.

Players need to take a look at themselves, but equally must the manager.  He controls who plays.

Would love to see a Neville or Carragher pull that performance to pieces.

 

[SStandUp]

Just to confirm,

this thread wasn't directed at those who want Johnson out. That's your opinion and you are 100% entitled to it, especially in current circumstances. And I also know I'm in the minority who is seeing things slightly differently. 

It was more to vent my frustrations at how players seem to get off so lightly! 

 

[RumRed]

2 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Just to confirm,

this thread wasn't directed at those who want Johnson out. That's your opinion and you are 100% entitled to it, especially in current circumstances. And I also know I'm in the minority who is seeing things slightly differently. 

It was more to vent my frustrations at how players seem to get off so lightly! 

 

Unfortunately they will get off lightly, I'm sure most will move on if we get relegated.  I'm not so sure LJ will find it that easy to get another job though.

[CityCiderEd]

2 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Just to confirm,

this thread wasn't directed at those who want Johnson out. That's your opinion and you are 100% entitled to it, especially in current circumstances. And I also know I'm in the minority who is seeing things slightly differently. 

It was more to vent my frustrations at how players seem to get off so lightly! 

 

The thing I will agree %100 with you was about the players.They should be ashamed of that performance as it was gutless and passionless.

[SStandUp]

@Davefevs can't argue at all with your thoughts from last night. I pretty much entirely agree. That's why in my OP I was quick to regard last night an exception compared to previous games. 

[AshtonG666]

38 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

What are you so confused about? You're telling me you haven't left most home games frustrated because we deserved a result based on performances, but haven't got anything because of mistakes. Reading, Cardiff, Brentford just to name a few 

It's the same at all clubs and if they all looked back, there would be situations across the board where teams should have picked up all 3 points rather than 1 down to a silly mistake or a schoolboy error

No team is perfect, but as it stands LJ isn't the right man for this club, has lost the respect of the fans (maybe also the players) and will find that hard to win back and as a result he has to go 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

@Davefevs can't argue at all with your thoughts from last night. I pretty much entirely agree. That's why in my OP I was quick to regard last night an exception compared to previous games. 

Yes, last night was my new 'Sheffield Utd 0-1 Flint og from 13/14'.  It was an exception.  We were bad last night.  At least in plenty of others we've had spells.

As I didn't take Joe, I had to pay £27 for that last night (normally go free as his carer).  I blame Mrs Fevs for not letting me take him!

Back to your OP, the reasons players get away with it, us that usually you can't sack a whole team! 

[Roger Red Hat]

13 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Unfortunately they will get off lightly, I'm sure most will move on if we get relegated.  I'm not so sure LJ will find it that easy to get another job though.

He needs to go get a job as part of a coaching team at  club with a good manager and learn the job.

[RumRed]

1 minute ago, Roger Red Hat said:

He needs to go get a job as part of a coaching team at  club with a good manager and learn the job.

He talks a good game and seems pretty bright to be honest, I think you're right.

[Rossi the Robin]

Generally a man motivater who has respect from players because he has been there and done it, will probably be a bigger factor than tactics

Its easy to manage when it's going well, but the key is when it's not - teams sussed us out after our good start

LJ hasn't the respect off the players because he hasn't the experience or presence 

 

 

[SStandUp]

6 hours ago, Rossi the Robin said:

Generally a man motivater who has respect from players because he has been there and done it, will probably be a bigger factor than tactics

Its easy to manage when it's going well, but the key is when it's not - teams sussed us out after our good start

LJ hasn't the respect off the players because he hasn't the experience or presence 

 

 

Maybe you're right!

But I go back to my point I made in my OP. Ok fair enough, they've lost respect for LJ and aren't playing for him. An excuse many fans are using to out Johnson. But by doing that, you're essentially saying the players have stopped playing for Bristol City and also the fans? And we're supposed to be happy about that or accept that? 

As soon as they step over that white line, regardless of manager, their competitive instinct should take over. But it doesn't, because they honestly don't care. 

During this run, where players making mistakes has been our biggest downfall, not a single one of them has come out and openly held their hands up and took responsibility. Beyond a disgrace. 

[AshtonG666]

You only need to look at Birmingham as an example, they were ticking along nicely under Rowett, playing good football, were well organised and sat pretty in the table and along come Zola as the club wanted a bigger name at the helm and since he has been there, their fortunes have changed and they have struggled for a win and didn't even look close to having the new manager bounce a lot of teams have 

It the same group of lads there, so it must be down to the manager and his tactics and the way he gets the team playing and the same is the case with LJ as the team don't have a clue what they are doing from one day to the next 

The likelyhood is, we started the season well because we brought in a lot of new players who were all keen to impress and like everyone when they start a new job, you want to do well for your employees, but I'm guessing as time has gone on and they have sussed LJ out and realised he isn't the real deal, they have lost respect for the guy and things have fallen apart 

This is where we need to sack LJ soon and bring in an experienced hand who can install confidence and get the best out the team, as currently that's not happening and the closer to the squeaky bum time we get, the worse the team will play and league 1 will beckon for us 

[FNQ]

55 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Maybe you're right!

But I go back to my point I made in my OP. Ok fair enough, they've lost respect for LJ and aren't playing for him. An excuse many fans are using to out Johnson. But by doing that, you're essentially saying the players have stopped playing for Bristol City and also the fans? And we're supposed to be happy about that or accept that? 

As soon as they step over that white line, regardless of manager, their competitive instinct should take over. But it doesn't, because they honestly don't care. 

During this run, where players making mistakes has been our biggest downfall, not a single one of them has come out and openly held their hands up and took responsibility. Beyond a disgrace. 

Mate, you're over simplifying this one.. How high do think the players confidence and morale is when the coach is outing them individually in press conferences and when although you've being trying your best you are suddenly completely omitted from the match day squad or even shipped out on loan. All the while the player keeping you out of the team repeatedly costs us games / points and has not missed a game.. The players I'm referring to are internationals and even an England under 19 captain.. Why have they been treated like they are frickin useless and totally to blame and what exactly does the incumbent centre half have to do to get dropped? This sort of management is bound to cause friction and ultimately match day nerves within the squad, especially when playing at home in front of an expectant and disillusioned fans.

[SStandUp]

41 minutes ago, AshtonG666 said:

You only need to look at Birmingham as an example, they were ticking along nicely under Rowett, playing good football, were well organised and sat pretty in the table and along come Zola as the club wanted a bigger name at the helm and since he has been there, their fortunes have changed and they have struggled for a win and didn't even look close to having the new manager bounce a lot of teams have 

It the same group of lads there, so it must be down to the manager and his tactics and the way he gets the team playing and the same is the case with LJ as the team don't have a clue what they are doing from one day to the next 

The likelyhood is, we started the season well because we brought in a lot of new players who were all keen to impress and like everyone when they start a new job, you want to do well for your employees, but I'm guessing as time has gone on and they have sussed LJ out and realised he isn't the real deal, they have lost respect for the guy and things have fallen apart 

This is where we need to sack LJ soon and bring in an experienced hand who can install confidence and get the best out the team, as currently that's not happening and the closer to the squeaky bum time we get, the worse the team will play and league 1 will beckon for us 

2 weeks ago we put in a first half performance which was one of the best in 10years from a City team. 

[SStandUp]

3 minutes ago, FNQ said:

Mate, you're over simplifying this one.. How high do think the players confidence and morale is when the coach is outing them individually in press conferences and when although you've being trying your best you are suddenly completely omitted from the match day squad or even shipped out on loan. All the while the player keeping you out of the team repeatedly costs us games / points and has not missed a game.. The players I'm referring to are internationals and even an England under 19 captain.. Why have they been treated like they are frickin useless and totally to blame and what exactly does the incumbent centre half have to do to get dropped? This sort of management is bound to cause friction and ultimately match day nerves within the squad, especially when playing at home in front of an expectant and disillusioned fans.

When has he ever outed a player in a PC? He continues to back them and says he has belief in the squad, which has an apparent bright future. I potentially think his biggest downfall is probably being too soft. How many times has he had to watch his side crumble under a bit of pressure? I would of lost my head by now. But he hasn't. 

You're a bit naive bud if you're sat there and not recognising the fact we've played relatively well in all games and haven't got anything. Even in our last 2 away games, based on our performance and set up we deserved a win and a draw (4 points) but we get a draw and a loss (1 point). 

But you see things differently fair enough! 

This wasn't necessarily a Johnson In post. But a post to highlight how players have to take a large portion of the blame. Which I think is justified. 

[Gert Mare]

9 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

I'm not a regular poster on here, but I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago that seemed to go down pretty well, so here it goes again. It's another lengthy read. 

I'm just curious on what it will take one day for fans to back a manager over a set of players? Not just at our club, but all clubs.

I was stood at the game last night watching one of the most pathetic footballing displays in absolute rage. But I wasn't in rage at our manager or other members of staff, but with a set of players who decided to offer a performance of that level in our biggest game of the season to date! I don't care who our manager is, or even if we were managerless, you have to dig pretty deep to justify or excuse a performance like that.

I'll get to my point now...

So on the back of last night, fans are suggesting players have stopped playing for Lee Johnson. Maybe you're right, only the players will know if that's true, but let's just say that is the case and they have stopped playing for our manager. So what you're suggesting is players are going out of their way to under perform for the manager, so therefore they are under performing for Bristol City Fooball Club, and therefore under performing for us/ you, the paying customer. With this in mind, why on earth do we continue to blame managers in situations like this and not the players? Simple - because we all know that players are untouchable/ unsackable, so the only option is to point the finger at the manager when things are going like they are currently at City, which is a sad sad thought. 

You can garuantee that Lee Johnson is working endless days trying to sort this mess out. A mess we are in because of the players. 

In my opinion, the players are still playing for Lee Johnson. Last night, they couldn't handle the occasion, everyone in that ground, fans, players etc, knew how big a game it was and we couldn't handle it. Forgetting last night for now, this current 18 game streak of poor form we are on is absolutely unacceptable, don't get me wrong. But if you take time and look back at these past 4months/ 18 games and look at each game individually (like I have), you will soon realise you'll be saying to yourself - how did we not win that? How did we not get atleast a point? We played well in that game, but didn't get anything! .. So then you think back deeper and ask why/ how we didn't win or get atleast a point. And more often than not, you'll realise it was down to individual mistakes/ errors, rather than us not playing well and getting outplayed. And that's what is the most frustrating thing about this situation, we have shown how good we can be/ are on a regular basis. But players have let themselves down, their performances down, their manager down, and the fans down all too often!

The Derby game is the most recent, but not the only example of this. 3-0 up at HT, playing unbelievable. Come out second half, but a decent performance in, but make 3 schoolboy mistakes to capitulate to 3-3. Now I'm very conscious of not under miming or disregarding others supporters opinions/ thoughts, however, you have to be pretty naive/ narrow minded to suggest the reason we slumped to 3-3 was down to our manager and not the players Incapabilities at important moments in the game. A lot of fans were laying it upon LJ, which I found absolutely ludicrous. 

My point is, I was at the game last night, listening to Johnson out chants, and felt pretty sorry for the bloke. In the majority of games this season, he has set us up well and got a good performance out of this side, but has been let down in most of them with very basic player errors. Yet the only person being blamed for this current situation, is Lee Johnson!

The question is, when will fans see the bigger picture of this situation and stop taking the easy option of scapegoating the manager/ Lee Johnson. Because that's what it is, an easy option, because we know as previously mentioned, players are untouchable. But this shouldn't mean we automatically blame the manager. Because in this specific situation at City, when we look back at the bigger picture, our manager has been doing a decent job of getting performances, and has no doubt been let down. 

Up the City x

 

 

Lee Johnson / Mark Ashton talked about getting the players with the right DNA / Attitude into the club and have delivered the garbage that we are witnessing today. You cannot sack an entire team and things have to massively change in the game but it is what it is and the manager has to go.

[FNQ]

2 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

When has he ever outed a player in a PC? He continues to back them and says he has belief in the squad, which has an apparent bright future. I potentially think his biggest downfall is probably being too soft. How many times has he had to watch his side crumble under a bit of pressure? I would of lost my head by now. But he hasn't. 

You're a bit naive bud if you're sat there and not recognising the fact we've played relatively well in all games and haven't got anything. Even in our last 2 away games, based on our performance and set up we deserved a win and a draw (4 points) but we get a draw and a loss (1 point). 

But you see things differently fair enough! 

This wasn't necessarily a Johnson In post. But a post to highlight how players have to take a large portion of the blame. Which I think is justified. 

I do not disagree about playing well at times... and a lot of the times too... I was just trying to offer an opinion as to why panic seems to sets in within the players whereby they then attract your blame. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Fontaineofallknowledge said:

Piffle. It is the managers job to instil confidence, organisation and motivate the team. He also trains and gets his philosophy across to the players so that they play the style that he wants. 

The team last night had not confidence, pattern of play or even aggression which has to come from the manager. 

Can you imagine a Warnock or pulis side putting on such a pathetic, meek display as last night? We need to get nasty and that starts with SL pulling the trigger!

 

The players.....his players are not being managed by him or any captain he chooses on the field. He reminds me so much of his dads last days here its untrue.