What would it take?

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

36 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

2 weeks ago we put in a first half performance which was one of the best in 10years from a City team. 

One 45 minutes in 3 months?!

[BCFC_Mike]

Its a difficult one. 

Yes you can blame the players, but only partially IMO. But man management and motivation has to come from the manager and the rest of the coaching staff. This is why I think LJ has lost the confidence of the dressing room. 

It was bound to get worse again after throwing the 3-0 lead away at Derby, but I've said before, what happened in the second half was so predictable, and at 3-0 it should be three points in the bag. Yes we missed a couple of chances in the second half, I'm sure those players will hold their hands up on that..  But at the end of the day, teams don't throw away leads like that or concede three goals in 45 minutes unless that tactics are unbalanced(?). Derby got it wrong in the first half, they made changes early on. LJ failed to counter act those changes, and see off what should have been a comfortable 3 points. 

 

Its not an easy league we're in, obviously. But LJ is clueless about his surroundings, clueless how to set for teams in this league. Another manager yet to prove his worth in the championship, and this is where SL needs to pick up on. 

With a proven manager at higher level football, I think our current side are capable of challenging for promotion, IMO. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

If the OP is saying player power should never win no one would would disagree with him.

There was a clique who stopped playing for GJ culminating in the Plymouth game. Many City fans at Home Park on the night said the performance of some players was so infuriating it was lucky they couldn't get in the dressing room at half time.

Similarly McIness who stated in an interview just before his dismissal that certain players had let everybody down so badly they would never play for City under him again - some of these being the same individuals who had underperformed under GJ.

These players should have been the ones to go before GJ, and most certainly, when they reoffended, before Del was dismissed.

Similar shenanigans occurred under Millen, a normally placid chap who was moved to public outbursts of fury by some of the players.

LJ's case though I would say is different those above. The players appear hesitant and lacklustre because he has confused them by over complicating the game with far too many changes of tactics, formations etc. What we see of his man management looks dreadful 

The players are underperforming largely because of LJ, not to spite him, and if he goes he will be very much the architect of his own downfall..

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If the OP is saying player power should never win no one would would disagree with him.

There was a clique who stopped playing for GJ culminating in the Plymouth game. Many City fans at Home Park on the night said the performance of some players was so infuriating it was lucky they couldn't get in the dressing room at half time.

Similarly McIness who stated in an interview just before his dismissal that certain players had let everybody down so badly they would never play for City under him again - some of these being the same individuals who had underperformed under GJ.

These players should have been the ones to go before GJ, and most certainly, when they reoffended, before Del was dismissed.

Similar shenanigans occurred under Millen, a normally placid chap who was moved to public outbursts of fury by some of the players.

LJ's case though I would say is different those above. The players appear hesitant and lacklustre because he has confused them by over complicating the game with far too many changes of tactics, formations etc. What we see of his man management looks dreadful 

The players are underperforming largely because of LJ, not to spite him, and if he goes he will be very much the architect of his own downfall..

Cracking post Nog 

Personally thought the stand by your manager over the players moment at this club was Plymouth

Your summary and conclusions all very good IMHO 

[AshtonG666]

10 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

2 weeks ago we put in a first half performance which was one of the best in 10years from a City team. 

Is that all you have :laugh: 

If you remember that same day we crumbled and arguably put in the worst second half performances in 10yrs from a City team 

[SStandUp]

After today's game, do we see the point I made/ have been making? 

Today - Lee Johnson reverted back to players he knows he can trust. The 11 selected wasn't full of our most talented players, but were players Johnson knew would give 100% for him, the fans and this club.

I really hope this opens a lot of supporters eyes. I've seen it for a long time and i'm fed up of player power! I'm fed up of the manager being the scapegoat for the players guilty of this, time after time after time. 

 

Up the City, we're in this together x

[Slippin cider]

6 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

After today's game, do we see the point I made/ have been making? 

Today - Lee Johnson reverted back to players he knows he can trust. The 11 selected wasn't full of our most talented players, but were players Johnson knew would give 100% for him, the fans and this club.

I really hope this opens a lot of supporters eyes. I've seen it for a long time and i'm fed up of player power! I'm fed up of the manager being the scapegoat for the players guilty of this, time after time after time. 

 

Up the City, we're in this together x

Some good points....the fact is though, it's a team, and he should be able to trust all of them ! They are all contracted and paid to play for the club and therefore should be giving 100% + at all times ....am I asking too much here? 

[milo1111]

16 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

After today's game, do we see the point I made/ have been making? 

Today - Lee Johnson reverted back to players he knows he can trust. The 11 selected wasn't full of our most talented players, but were players Johnson knew would give 100% for him, the fans and this club.

I really hope this opens a lot of supporters eyes. I've seen it for a long time and i'm fed up of player power! I'm fed up of the manager being the scapegoat for the players guilty of this, time after time after time. 

 

Up the City, we're in this together x

You are right BUT it was LJ who hasnt been picking GON and bobby reid. And brought in hegler as he said we needed to improve in MF.

If LJ has any sense and is to save his and our necks this season he needs to stick with a close incarnation of the team he picked today. GON especially will be needed IMO for his guile and experience. 

Above all else we need the same guts and energy in every game and not just because they are playing infront of a 50k crowd.

[Wanderingred]

Sigh.

As I've said in another thread...  When you are an employee working for an incompetant manager, it can be draining, demoralising and very difficult to do your job to the best of your ability. Believe me, I've worked for plenty of shabby language schools in the past. Put yourselves in their position - they are being constantly chopped and changed, the instructions LJ has been giving them hasnt got them anywhere on the pitch, they are not being utilised to the best of their ability and theyve had their confidence wrecked due to constant failure. 

During our bad run, we must have used about 25 different players. The team that stank against Fulham is massively different to the one that stank against Cardiff back in October. Is this a coincidence? Do people honestly believe that all of our squad are all wasters who couldnt give a damn about the club? Or is it more likely that they are being managed by somebody who is totally out of his depth and have completely lost belief in him?

Players are told what their role is by the manager. If they look lost, confused and nervous then thats his fault.

Johnson out.

[SStandUp]

28 minutes ago, Slippin cider said:

Some good points....the fact is though, it's a team, and he should be able to trust all of them ! They are all contracted and paid to play for the club and therefore should be giving 100% + at all times ....am I asking too much here? 

You're asking the bare minimum of players, 100% effort in every game. 

You're right he should be able to trust all of them, but it doesn't appear he can. 

[SStandUp]

17 minutes ago, Kim_il_sung said:

Sigh.

As I've said in another thread...  When you are an employee working for an incompetant manager, it can be draining, demoralising and very difficult to do your job to the best of your ability. Believe me, I've worked for plenty of shabby language schools in the past. Put yourselves in their position - they are being constantly chopped and changed, the instructions LJ has been giving them hasnt got them anywhere on the pitch, they are not being utilised to the best of their ability and theyve had their confidence wrecked due to constant failure. 

During our bad run, we must have used about 25 different players. The team that stank against Fulham is massively different to the one that stank against Cardiff back in October. Is this a coincidence? Do people honestly believe that all of our squad are all wasters who couldnt give a damn about the club? Or is it more likely that they are being managed by somebody who is totally out of his depth and have completely lost belief in him?

Players are told what their role is by the manager. If they look lost, confused and nervous then thats his fault.

Johnson out.

I completely understand your point. I don't necisssarily agree 100%, but I understand.

But the 14 players who took part in today's game played with heart and gave everything. The result? A point at premier league bound Newcastle United.

My point is, whoever Johnson selects, the one thing he should be garuanteed is 100% effort. Those that don't give him and the club that are a disgrace and deserved to be found out. I hope he sticks to a core 18/19 players who I feel actually care. 

We will see. At the end of the day we all want the best for this club. I'm hopeful and confident that Johnson can give us that, especially if the players give him the effort they did today for every game! 

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

I completely understand your point. I don't necisssarily agree 100%, but I understand.

But the 14 players who took part in today's game played with heart and gave everything. The result? A point at premier league bound Newcastle United.

My point is, whoever Johnson selects, the one thing he should be garuanteed is 100% effort. Those that don't give him and the club that are a disgrace and deserved to be found out. I hope he sticks to a core 18/19 players who I feel actually care. 

We will see. At the end of the day we all want the best for this club. I'm hopeful and confident that Johnson can give us that, especially if the players give him the effort they did today for every game! 

I won't defend any player that doesn't give %100 - and I don't feel there's ever a justification - but have you ever considered why some of them are demoralised , confused , pissed off and why they might not be ?

[Wanderingred]

8 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

I completely understand your point. I don't necisssarily agree 100%, but I understand.

But the 14 players who took part in today's game played with heart and gave everything. The result? A point at premier league bound Newcastle United.

My point is, whoever Johnson selects, the one thing he should be garuanteed is 100% effort. Those that don't give him and the club that are a disgrace and deserved to be found out. I hope he sticks to a core 18/19 players who I feel actually care. 

We will see. At the end of the day we all want the best for this club. I'm hopeful and confident that Johnson can give us that, especially if the players give him the effort they did today for every game! 

Sometimes its difficult to tell the difference between lack of effort and lack of confidence. I think its the latter in most cases. I dont believe for a second that any of these players want a relegation on their CV. I agree that there is no room for any passengers or wasters and if it turns out there are any, they need to be dealt with. For me though, if Johnson stays we go down. I form my opinions based on evidence, and the results/performances say everything about his capability as a manager.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

On 2/23/2017 at 22:32, 'keepuplino' said:

Why is it so bloody hard to understand that as a manager comes responsibility.. responsibility for signings, responsibility for success and ultimately responsibility for failure!!!

There is , of course, a difference between a Manager and a head coach and there is a very big question as to who actually has had the responsibility for the signings.

In respect of failure : this has been such an incredibly fine line this season- no thumpings and some poor luck , poor ref decisions and some crap stuff from Lee as well as his players.

What genuinely amused me today was the 'success' was suddenly down to Wilbs who unusually was lauded by many who had written him off as a has been and became solely responsible for a team performance disconnected from any responsibility of the person that picked him to play- Lee Johnson.

I really understand the LJ critics but what I really dislike is that if he's responsible for our failures that those same critics refuse to accept that he's responsible for our success. And today's draw at Toon was a success. 

 

[SStandUp]

9 minutes ago, Kim_il_sung said:

Sometimes its difficult to tell the difference between lack of effort and lack of confidence. I think its the latter in most cases. I dont believe for a second that any of these players want a relegation on their CV. I agree that there is no room for any passengers or wasters and if it turns out there are any, they need to be dealt with. For me though, if Johnson stays we go down. I form my opinions based on evidence, and the results/performances say everything about his capability as a manager.

I disagree that our performances are evidence that we are doomed for relegation. In the majority of games (even within this bad run) we have been right in it and have deserved a point or 3 points on many occasions - based on the general performance over a 90mins. However, the reason we haven't always got anything out of these games is because of basic errors and schoolboy mistakes. And I'm gutted that not once, a player has come out and took responsibility or as a group held their hands up. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

I disagree that our performances are evidence that we are doomed for relegation. In the majority of games (even within this bad run) we have been right in it and have deserved a point or 3 points on many occasions - based on the general performance over a 90mins. However, the reason we haven't always got anything out of these games is because of basic errors and schoolboy mistakes. And I'm gutted that not once, a player has come out and took responsibility or as a group held their hands up. 

And which parts do you hold the head coach responsible for ?

Any ?

[SStandUp]

16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And which parts do you hold the head coach responsible for ?

Any ?

Listen I'm not saying LJ is perfect. As a manager he won't get everything right, I'm not that far up his arse 

However, from my point of view,  the players have let down Johnson on a regular basis, not necisssarily through lack of effort/ commitment, but just through basic errors that can been easily avoidable! Yet, for the majority of fans, it's outright Lee Johnsons fault. Which isn't fair.

We've lost 19 points from winning positions. The manager must be doing something right to get us in these winning positions. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

Listen I'm not saying LJ is perfect. As a manager he won't get everything right, I'm not that far up his arse 

However, from my point of view,  the players have let down Johnson on a regular basis, not necisssarily through lack of effort/ commitment, but just through basic errors that can been easily avoidable! Yet, for the majority of fans, it's outright Lee Johnsons fault. Which isn't fair.

We've lost 19 points from winning positions. The manager must be doing something right to get us in these winning positions. 

Fair enough 

Players definitely have to shoulder a weight of blame , just a case of where the balance lies !

[Davefevs]

Haven't read the forum since pre-game so probably picking the wrong thread to start.

Absolutely delighted that we got a point today.  I don't care where the required number of points to stave off relegation come from, accepting that some games will be important to not give out competition an advantage,  

Going into the run of four away games and fearing LLLL, I thought that if we only lost 2, it would be 2, 4, or 6 points gained.  We've got 2pts out of 3 games so far, with Villa left.  The blot was what we all thought was a well (hastily) arranged game at home v Fulham.

Going into today's game, the team announced was met with vitriol.  When will we ever learn?  Not trying to go all "I told you so", but we do have to wait until we view the performance / result.  Most people acknowledge that we are underperforming, so that must mean that people think we have some decent players in our squad.  Why not give them chance to perform before giving up on the eleven picked?

Not heard any post-game interviews, but pre-game it was all about the 'trusted ones'.

So, great that he's found some.  Maybe it's the turning point (too soon to tell imho)?  Not so, great, he will have pissed off  those who didn't get selected.  If he's got his characters correct, then we won't be too worried about the lack of involvement of Matthews, Bownhill (injured?)and Golbourne, (maybe some demoted to bench also), suspect he's got one of the three correct.  A few others might be thinking why he hadn't resorted to the 'trusted ones' earlier, i.e. Them!

It shows the inconsistency of his thinking and decision making.  He's winging it!  Just shut the eff up, and stop saying too much to the media.  Did he need to tell us?  Nope.  Creates mis-information, speculation etc.  Keep it in-house.  Don't give people something to hang you by.  The next time we play poorly, do the 'trusted ones' become the new 'bad apples'?

I'd let Pembo take a few press-conferences.

Lets see what Tuesday's performance brings.

Tonight is not about LJ getting it right, it's about the players putting effort in and working hard by the seems of it.  Hoping the re-introduction of O'Neil is significant, and Korey too.  Too early to say, but hopeful.

This is not a back-track on my thoughts re LJ.

[SStandUp]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Haven't read the forum since pre-game so probably picking the wrong thread to start.

Absolutely delighted that we got a point today.  I don't care where the required number of points to stave off relegation come from, accepting that some games will be important to not give out competition an advantage,  

Going into the run of four away games and fearing LLLL, I thought that if we only lost 2, it would be 2, 4, or 6 points gained.  We've got 2pts out of 3 games so far, with Villa left.  The blot was what we all thought was a well (hastily) arranged game at home v Fulham.

Going into today's game, the team announced was met with vitriol.  When will we ever learn?  Not trying to go all "I told you so", but we do have to wait until we view the performance / result.  Most people acknowledge that we are underperforming, so that must mean that people think we have some decent players in our squad.  Why not give them chance to perform before giving up on the eleven picked?

Not heard any post-game interviews, but pre-game it was all about the 'trusted ones'.

So, great that he's found some.  Maybe it's the turning point (too soon to tell imho)?  Not so, great, he will have pissed off  those who didn't get selected.  If he's got his characters correct, then we won't be too worried about the lack of involvement of Matthews, Bownhill (injured?)and Golbourne, (maybe some demoted to bench also), suspect he's got one of the three correct.  A few others might be thinking why he hadn't resorted to the 'trusted ones' earlier, i.e. Them!

It shows the inconsistency of his thinking and decision making.  He's winging it!  Just shut the eff up, and stop saying too much to the media.  Did he need to tell us?  Nope.  Creates mis-information, speculation etc.  Keep it in-house.  Don't give people something to hang you by.  The next time we play poorly, do the 'trusted ones' become the new 'bad apples'?

I'd let Pembo take a few press-conferences.

Lets see what Tuesday's performance brings.

Tonight is not about LJ getting it right, it's about the players putting effort in and working hard by the seems of it.  Hoping the re-introduction of O'Neil is significant, and Korey too.  Too early to say, but hopeful.

This is not a back-track on my thoughts re LJ.

So Wednesdsy night, when the players seemed to lack heart and commitment resulting in a poor performance, it was outright LJ's fault? 

Today he selects a group of players who gave him and the club everything, but it's nothing to do with Johnson, it's about the players level of effort?

Make up your mind people, you can't have it both ways. This is getting beyond ridiculous! 

[spudski]

On ‎23‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 22:01, ForeverRes said:

I'm not a regular poster on here, but I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago that seemed to go down pretty well, so here it goes again. It's another lengthy read. 

I'm just curious on what it will take one day for fans to back a manager over a set of players? Not just at our club, but all clubs.

I was stood at the game last night watching one of the most pathetic footballing displays in absolute rage. But I wasn't in rage at our manager or other members of staff, but with a set of players who decided to offer a performance of that level in our biggest game of the season to date! I don't care who our manager is, or even if we were managerless, you have to dig pretty deep to justify or excuse a performance like that.

I'll get to my point now...

So on the back of last night, fans are suggesting players have stopped playing for Lee Johnson. Maybe you're right, only the players will know if that's true, but let's just say that is the case and they have stopped playing for our manager. So what you're suggesting is players are going out of their way to under perform for the manager, so therefore they are under performing for Bristol City Fooball Club, and therefore under performing for us/ you, the paying customer. With this in mind, why on earth do we continue to blame managers in situations like this and not the players? Simple - because we all know that players are untouchable/ unsackable, so the only option is to point the finger at the manager when things are going like they are currently at City, which is a sad sad thought. 

You can garuantee that Lee Johnson is working endless days trying to sort this mess out. A mess we are in because of the players. 

In my opinion, the players are still playing for Lee Johnson. Last night, they couldn't handle the occasion, everyone in that ground, fans, players etc, knew how big a game it was and we couldn't handle it. Forgetting last night for now, this current 18 game streak of poor form we are on is absolutely unacceptable, don't get me wrong. But if you take time and look back at these past 4months/ 18 games and look at each game individually (like I have), you will soon realise you'll be saying to yourself - how did we not win that? How did we not get atleast a point? We played well in that game, but didn't get anything! .. So then you think back deeper and ask why/ how we didn't win or get atleast a point. And more often than not, you'll realise it was down to individual mistakes/ errors, rather than us not playing well and getting outplayed. And that's what is the most frustrating thing about this situation, we have shown how good we can be/ are on a regular basis. But players have let themselves down, their performances down, their manager down, and the fans down all too often!

The Derby game is the most recent, but not the only example of this. 3-0 up at HT, playing unbelievable. Come out second half, but a decent performance in, but make 3 schoolboy mistakes to capitulate to 3-3. Now I'm very conscious of not under miming or disregarding others supporters opinions/ thoughts, however, you have to be pretty naive/ narrow minded to suggest the reason we slumped to 3-3 was down to our manager and not the players Incapabilities at important moments in the game. A lot of fans were laying it upon LJ, which I found absolutely ludicrous. 

My point is, I was at the game last night, listening to Johnson out chants, and felt pretty sorry for the bloke. In the majority of games this season, he has set us up well and got a good performance out of this side, but has been let down in most of them with very basic player errors. Yet the only person being blamed for this current situation, is Lee Johnson!

The question is, when will fans see the bigger picture of this situation and stop taking the easy option of scapegoating the manager/ Lee Johnson. Because that's what it is, an easy option, because we know as previously mentioned, players are untouchable. But this shouldn't mean we automatically blame the manager. Because in this specific situation at City, when we look back at the bigger picture, our manager has been doing a decent job of getting performances, and has no doubt been let down. 

Up the City x

 

 

I've been saying similar for months mate. And totally agree.

It's laughable when you read that players aren't playing for the manager. There is no sign of that what so ever.

People get it in their minds, that because there was a locking of horns between a few players and LJ a while back, that means they don't want to play for him or put the effort in. All football Clubs have this happen. If it were that bad, the players would be dropped completely and shown the door. The manager and coaching staff would make sure those disrupting influences were either gone, or they would talk it over and come to an agreement. That happens in all walks of life and any business. The likes of GoN, Tomlin and Golbourne and Paterson would be no way near the first team if things hadn't progressed and worked together.

We've been set up exactly the same as pretty much any other team in this division. We aren't doing anything drastically different. Our Coach isn't mental and out of his depth. Like you rightly say...we've been in winning positions in many games, and lost 19 points because we let the opponents back in the game. When doing so, apart from the Reading game we've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position.

As LJ has said...and certain players...they weren't instructed to sit deep in games when leading. They did it because of fear, confidence and the other teams ability.

We've got a very young squad of players with a smattering of experience at this level. It's not worked out imo, because the players we've relied on to give that experience and leadership have been failing in their own poor individual performances. GoN, Fielding, Matthews, Golbourne, Tomlin have all been either awful or very inconsistent this season. As a manager...who would expect all your experienced players to fail you? Wright and Cotterill have come in with experience, and given us more stability. Those youngsters and less experienced players thrive off that experience and guidance...and their performances improve. As a youngster, if you see the experienced player struggling...how does that give you confidence?

We've been let down terribly this season by many of our experienced Pros...Wilbs, Wright and Cotterill are the only one's imo, that have consistently when asked done their duty.

Yesterday was a prime example of how our season has panned out this season. We played well, held our shape well, but individual mistakes and decisions let the opponants take advantage.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the short corner taken for Newcastle in the last minutes of the game, where no defender followed the taker and Shelby out, and let Shelby have a free shot on goal, was exactly the type of situation that's lost us games this season, and could have easily done the same yesterday...it looked easier to score.

That's not down to LJ's management. That's down to individuals losing concentration and lack of experience at this level.

Had our experienced players stepped up to the mark this season, then I'm sure our results would be better. But they haven't, they have been very inconsistent.

That inconsistency, a few niggling injuries and more long term, have all had an effect on our results, and the need for personnel changes on the field.

I'm sure LJ would have loved to have Matthews, Golbourne, GoN and Tomlin all performing to their normal abilities that we've all seen in recent seasons...add in Cotterill, Wright, Tammy and Hegeler....and you have on paper a decent backbone to what should be first picks. Mix in the exhuberence of talented youth with them, and it's a mid table team. I laugh out loud when I still see people posting that we should be pushing for the play off's with this squad. Deluded.

LJ imo, has been let down by his experienced Pros. If he and the Club are at blame for anything....then it would be judgement on those players, and risking playing lesser individuals smattered amongst them.

If on paper those individuals had played to their normal abilities, then it could quiet easily have put us in a mid table position imo.

I've seen Brownhill, Odowda, Moore, Magners, Vyner, Reid, Bryan, Patterson, Taylor...all show glimpses of their potential in games. And some have improved...especially Brownhill and Odowda imo, so their is some glimmer of hope for the future.

However...I have witnessed more incompetent performances from our experienced pros, this season, than ever before.

That you can't plan for.

Like you say....LJ isn't perfect, but the grief he gets on here is unjustified, considering many of the players get very little blame. Matthews and Tomlin being the worst imo. Maybe two decent performances each this season. Very poor.

 

 

[SedRA]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've been saying similar for months mate. And totally agree.

It's laughable when you read that players aren't playing for the manager. There is no sign of that what so ever.

People get it in their minds, that because there was a locking of horns between a few players and LJ a while back, that means they don't want to play for him or put the effort in. All football Clubs have this happen. If it were that bad, the players would be dropped completely and shown the door. The manager and coaching staff would make sure those disrupting influences were either gone, or they would talk it over and come to an agreement. That happens in all walks of life and any business. The likes of GoN, Tomlin and Golbourne and Paterson would be no way near the first team if things hadn't progressed and worked together.

We've been set up exactly the same as pretty much any other team in this division. We aren't doing anything drastically different. Our Coach isn't mental and out of his depth. Like you rightly say...we've been in winning positions in many games, and lost 19 points because we let the opponents back in the game. When doing so, apart from the Reading game we've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position.

As LJ has said...and certain players...they weren't instructed to sit deep in games when leading. They did it because of fear, confidence and the other teams ability.

We've got a very young squad of players with a smattering of experience at this level. It's not worked out imo, because the players we've relied on to give that experience and leadership have been failing in their own poor individual performances. GoN, Fielding, Matthews, Golbourne, Tomlin have all been either awful or very inconsistent this season. As a manager...who would expect all your experienced players to fail you? Wright and Cotterill have come in with experience, and given us more stability. Those youngsters and less experienced players thrive off that experience and guidance...and their performances improve. As a youngster, if you see the experienced player struggling...how does that give you confidence?

We've been let down terribly this season by many of our experienced Pros...Wilbs, Wright and Cotterill are the only one's imo, that have consistently when asked done their duty.

Yesterday was a prime example of how our season has panned out this season. We played well, held our shape well, but individual mistakes and decisions let the opponants take advantage.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the short corner taken for Newcastle in the last minutes of the game, where no defender followed the taker and Shelby out, and let Shelby have a free shot on goal, was exactly the type of situation that's lost us games this season, and could have easily done the same yesterday...it looked easier to score.

That's not down to LJ's management. That's down to individuals losing concentration and lack of experience at this level.

Had our experienced players stepped up to the mark this season, then I'm sure our results would be better. But they haven't, they have been very inconsistent.

That inconsistency, a few niggling injuries and more long term, have all had an effect on our results, and the need for personnel changes on the field.

I'm sure LJ would have loved to have Matthews, Golbourne, GoN and Tomlin all performing to their normal abilities that we've all seen in recent seasons...add in Cotterill, Wright, Tammy and Hegeler....and you have on paper a decent backbone to what should be first picks. Mix in the exhuberence of talented youth with them, and it's a mid table team. I laugh out loud when I still see people posting that we should be pushing for the play off's with this squad. Deluded.

LJ imo, has been let down by his experienced Pros. If he and the Club are at blame for anything....then it would be judgement on those players, and risking playing lesser individuals smattered amongst them.

If on paper those individuals had played to their normal abilities, then it could quiet easily have put us in a mid table position imo.

I've seen Brownhill, Odowda, Moore, Magners, Vyner, Reid, Bryan, Patterson, Taylor...all show glimpses of their potential in games. And some have improved...especially Brownhill and Odowda imo, so their is some glimmer of hope for the future.

However...I have witnessed more incompetent performances from our experienced pros, this season, than ever before.

That you can't plan for.

Like you say....LJ isn't perfect, but the grief he gets on here is unjustified, considering many of the players get very little blame. Matthews and Tomlin being the worst imo. Maybe two decent performances each this season. Very poor.

 

 

I wonder if some of the more experienced pros still think of Bristol City as an easy ride, a nice club, where mediocrity is acceptable. It sure feels that way from the way the players you mention have performed.

This is something LJ and the rest of the management will need to eradicate if so. Make players realise this is a serious club and it's not acceptable to just put in half arsed performances and pick up your pay check. 

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I wonder if some of the more experienced pros still think of Bristol City as an easy ride, a nice club, where mediocrity is acceptable. It sure feels that way from the way the players you mention have performed.

This is something LJ and the rest of the management will need to eradicate if so. Make players realise this is a serious club and it's not acceptable to just put in half arsed performances and pick up your pay check. 

I think there is something to be said about that...we often wonder why we have underperformed through the years.

Over the years we've paid good money, for what on paper were decent players...yet many have underperformed once signing for us.

Some of the players performances reflect Bristol tbh...apathetic and nice. The majority of fans are the same...support when it's going well, and moan 'behind closed doors' ie forums, or a polite boo at the ground. It's nasty at other grounds, in your face venom, players abused at every set piece, throw in or corner. Our players live in a soft little bubble of politeness.

 

[AshtonGreat]

22 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've been saying similar for months mate. And totally agree.

It's laughable when you read that players aren't playing for the manager. There is no sign of that what so ever.

People get it in their minds, that because there was a locking of horns between a few players and LJ a while back, that means they don't want to play for him or put the effort in. All football Clubs have this happen. If it were that bad, the players would be dropped completely and shown the door. The manager and coaching staff would make sure those disrupting influences were either gone, or they would talk it over and come to an agreement. That happens in all walks of life and any business. The likes of GoN, Tomlin and Golbourne and Paterson would be no way near the first team if things hadn't progressed and worked together.

We've been set up exactly the same as pretty much any other team in this division. We aren't doing anything drastically different. Our Coach isn't mental and out of his depth. Like you rightly say...we've been in winning positions in many games, and lost 19 points because we let the opponents back in the game. When doing so, apart from the Reading game we've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position.

As LJ has said...and certain players...they weren't instructed to sit deep in games when leading. They did it because of fear, confidence and the other teams ability.

We've got a very young squad of players with a smattering of experience at this level. It's not worked out imo, because the players we've relied on to give that experience and leadership have been failing in their own poor individual performances. GoN, Fielding, Matthews, Golbourne, Tomlin have all been either awful or very inconsistent this season. As a manager...who would expect all your experienced players to fail you? Wright and Cotterill have come in with experience, and given us more stability. Those youngsters and less experienced players thrive off that experience and guidance...and their performances improve. As a youngster, if you see the experienced player struggling...how does that give you confidence?

We've been let down terribly this season by many of our experienced Pros...Wilbs, Wright and Cotterill are the only one's imo, that have consistently when asked done their duty.

Yesterday was a prime example of how our season has panned out this season. We played well, held our shape well, but individual mistakes and decisions let the opponants take advantage.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the short corner taken for Newcastle in the last minutes of the game, where no defender followed the taker and Shelby out, and let Shelby have a free shot on goal, was exactly the type of situation that's lost us games this season, and could have easily done the same yesterday...it looked easier to score.

That's not down to LJ's management. That's down to individuals losing concentration and lack of experience at this level.

Had our experienced players stepped up to the mark this season, then I'm sure our results would be better. But they haven't, they have been very inconsistent.

That inconsistency, a few niggling injuries and more long term, have all had an effect on our results, and the need for personnel changes on the field.

I'm sure LJ would have loved to have Matthews, Golbourne, GoN and Tomlin all performing to their normal abilities that we've all seen in recent seasons...add in Cotterill, Wright, Tammy and Hegeler....and you have on paper a decent backbone to what should be first picks. Mix in the exhuberence of talented youth with them, and it's a mid table team. I laugh out loud when I still see people posting that we should be pushing for the play off's with this squad. Deluded.

LJ imo, has been let down by his experienced Pros. If he and the Club are at blame for anything....then it would be judgement on those players, and risking playing lesser individuals smattered amongst them.

If on paper those individuals had played to their normal abilities, then it could quiet easily have put us in a mid table position imo.

I've seen Brownhill, Odowda, Moore, Magners, Vyner, Reid, Bryan, Patterson, Taylor...all show glimpses of their potential in games. And some have improved...especially Brownhill and Odowda imo, so their is some glimmer of hope for the future.

However...I have witnessed more incompetent performances from our experienced pros, this season, than ever before.

That you can't plan for.

Like you say....LJ isn't perfect, but the grief he gets on here is unjustified, considering many of the players get very little blame. Matthews and Tomlin being the worst imo. Maybe two decent performances each this season. Very poor.

 

 

If we've been consistently let down by our experienced pros, something has to be done...by the manager. The buck stops with him. I agree that the players should take some of the responsibility - they get paid an exceptional wage and have largely been abject. But ultimately it's Johnson's job to manage them. The problem may well be that he's too young and inexperienced to be a confident, effective man-manager.

And to say 'We've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position'... Isn't that just the problem? Surely, the sensible thing to do when you're in a winning position is to shut up shop.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

If we've been consistently let down by our experienced pros, something has to be done...by the manager. The buck stops with him. I agree that the players should take some of the responsibility - they get paid an exceptional wage and have largely been abject. But ultimately it's Johnson's job to manage them. The problem may well be that he's too young and inexperienced to be a confident, effective man-manager.

And to say 'We've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position'... Isn't that just the problem? Surely, the sensible thing to do when you're in a winning position is to shut up shop.

Players have said he's good one on one with man management skills.

The players have shut up shop when leading...they sit in banks of 4 way too deep. That's been the problem. LJ has instructed them to press...I've listened to him and Pembo shouting to press higher at games. You see it at other teams as well.

Tbh...it's been a problem with City through the years, regardless of manager or players. We've sat deep when leading and let players come at us.

Perhaps the nervous energy is felt by the players from the crowd?

Every time we need that energy, it happens after the crowd get behind the team. That doesn't happen enough imo, compared to many other grounds. Our away support is terrific...they sing, chant and support.

Our home fans, pay, sit, watch and moan...in general. Maybe there's a connection....apathy on the field reflecting what's surrounding them. Just a thought...not saying it's the reason, but it can't help.

 

[SStandUp]

@spudski I couldn't agree more with your posts above. 

@AshtonGreat the thing is with shutting up shop is that you are inevitably going to allow the opposition chances. And you're relying on rock solid defending to deny and thwart every attack/ chance. That's why Johnson is so adamant on the touch line in trying to get players up the pitch. I remember against Reading, we were sitting ridiculously deep. So Johnson bought on Wilbraham up top to support Abraham at 2-1 and for large parts it worked. However, we conceded 2 more goals because of basic mistakes, rather than our general performance in the last 15-20mins. 

[pjg11]

On ‎23‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 22:10, BobBobSuperBob said:

Players are obviously culpable but 

They don't believe in LJ

They aren't playing for him

He has done as well as anyone to suck any confidence out of them with his outing of players , muddled selections and tactics

Unless you want to sack the whole squad as well as LJ , not sure what you're suggesting

 

Do I take it that you think LJ is a good head coach ?

 

[pjg11]

see the point of 1st poster not playing for lj playing for Bristol city the fans each other and themselves pro pride if nothing else .when I played sport played under many coachs who didn't like or didn't agree with tactics didn't stop trying for the club teamates and me .the shirt club and us stronger than dislike for coach.just to be clear not an lj fan

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Players have said he's good one on one with man management skills.

The players have shut up shop when leading...they sit in banks of 4 way too deep. That's been the problem.

LJ has instructed them to press...I've listened to him and Pembo shouting to press higher at games. You see it at other teams as well.

Tbh...it's been a problem with City through the years, regardless of manager or players. We've sat deep when leading and let players come at us.

Perhaps the nervous energy is felt by the players from the crowd?

Every time we need that energy, it happens after the crowd get behind the team. That doesn't happen enough imo, compared to many other grounds. Our away support is terrific...they sing, chant and support.

Our home fans, pay, sit, watch and moan...in general. Maybe there's a connection....apathy on the field reflecting what's surrounding them. Just a thought...not saying it's the reason, but it can't help.

 

Spud

As regards pressing - He may well shout for them to press but for this to be done successfully requires planning , lots of coaching , consistency of selection, the right players and commitment from every player (Ive just posted longer about this in another thread)

 

I do disagree , as you are aware with the generalisation that 'The players are playing for him'

I've probably used the expression ,but of course so is 'The players aren't playing for him'

Both imply %100 inclusion either way ! 

If you read your posts back mate, as well as some recent posts you / they actually argue against this notion (Players behind / playing for him) in parts !

I am completely comfortable with the authenticity of some of the accounts that have come 'out' in recent months

Some issues may well have been repaired or partly repaired, some clearly have not

Some of the players aren't playing for him or at least don't believe in him and aren't %100 committed as part of a team

Some of those are becoming further and further ostracised , some are professional enough or have enough personal pride to put in a shift

Some may have decided to buckle down and save themselves as much as LJ

Whats clear , which is good , is that the 11 yesterday put in a great shift & effort 

Id love to know what the part / inclusion of AW had on this , and hope that the performance wasn't partly fuelled by playing in front of a 50,000 sell out 

(We may actually be fortunate that Villa Park beckons as it may actually help lift us again

The real acid test is more likely to be Burton)

Lee has (understandably) increasingly picked players he can trust - whilst still trying , it would appear to include some with obvious quality but a dubious attitude

My concern remains are there 'enough' he can trust , that have enough quality , and are there enough of them (Especially with our injury plague) to keep us out the kak

Heres hoping , praying

[havanatopia]

On 24/02/2017 at 06:18, ForeverRes said:

In literally our previous 2 games before last night (Derby & Leeds) your suggesting the players weren't playing for him? Derby we should of won comfortably with the performance we put in and Leeds we deserved a point. 

Youve done pretty well to miss every point I was trying to make.

Onviously sacking the squad isn't an option, as they are untouchable. But that doesn't mean we therefore should sack a manager who if regularly getting performances out of them? 

Not sure what this means but clearly you have answered your own question; if you cannot sack the players there is only one other option. Quite simple if you ask me.

12 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I won't defend any player that doesn't give %100 - and I don't feel there's ever a justification - but have you ever considered why some of them are demoralised , confused , pissed off and why they might not be ?

I have been thinking about this a lot and the best I can come up with is this; When they listen and look at Johnson they feel like they have just been involved in a train crash while sitting on the toilet with constipation and watching the Dean Windyass goal hit the roof of the net as a motivational video. Johnson says the wrong thing, at the wrong time, in the wrong tone and then slaps you on the back.