What would it take?

[havanatopia]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Every time we need that energy, it happens after the crowd get behind the team. That doesn't happen enough imo, compared to many other grounds. Our away support is terrific...they sing, chant and support.

Our home fans, pay, sit, watch and moan...in general. Maybe there's a connection....apathy on the field reflecting what's surrounding them. Just a thought...not saying it's the reason, but it can't help.

 

Are you suggesting away support helps us win more matches? Not really helped so far. I suppose we could moan more away and chant more at home!!.. bit like role reversal.. worth a try I suppose. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Are you suggesting away support helps us win more matches? Not really helped so far. I suppose we could moan more away and chant more at home!!.. bit like role reversal.. worth a try I suppose. 

I think big away followings do havantopia - 

The impact of a surprisingly large vocal away following is definitely a lift for players

Liverpool, Forest (Semi) , MK , Coventry, Fulham etc etc dozens of examples

[lager loud]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

We've been set up exactly the same as pretty much any other team in this division. We aren't doing anything drastically different. Our Coach isn't mental and out of his depth. Like you rightly say...we've been in winning positions in many games, and lost 19 points because we let the opponents back in the game. When doing so, apart from the Reading game we've done nothing drastically different to when we were in a winning position.

As LJ has said...and certain players...they weren't instructed to sit deep in games when leading. They did it because of fear, confidence and the other teams ability.

We've been set up different ways in different games; often different ways within the same game. In the second half against Fulham there were times I couldn't work out what formation we were supposed to be playing. Against Reading we started the game playing deep. As far as I could tell we were playing for a 0-0 but happened to go 2 up. I never had any confidence that we would keep a clean sheet (although we might, of course, have avoided letting in three).

Against Cardiff it became clear after about an hour that Brownhill had run out of steam and we were losing the midfield. LJ did nothing about it and we kept losing the midfield and ended up losing the game.

We've had Tomlin playing wide right for 25 minutes with LJ taking 24 minutes longer than many of us to realise this left us rather exposed down that side.

Early on against Fulham it was clear that their extra player in central midfield was going to cause us problems. I actually think the high press we started with made this worse, because it left gaps between our midfield and defence which were easy to exploit. When we 'went narrow' Fulham were good enough to spread the ball wide. I don't think overcoming that would have been easy, but they're Fulham, not Barcelona, and it should have been possible for a Championship coach to come up with something to counteract them.

Fulham actually played the game LJ talks: organised pressing out of possession, slick pass and move football in possession. I have seen little or no evidence of that from us even when City have got results this season.

There's no doubt players have underperformed - including against Fulham. But I think LJ should bear a a much larger share of the responsibility for our position than you assign him. If we are going to adopt a strategy of buying young players with potential (which I wholeheartedly agree with) we need coaches who can develop them and help realise their potential and a first team coach who can organise the team. I see no evidence that LJ is (yet) that man or that the coaching generally is getting the most out of the players we have.

I have no knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes at City, so I base all the above on what I've actually seen from the Dolman this season. Like many City fans, I was underwhelmed when I heard LJ had been appointed, because he hadn't been around for long enough to prove himself as a competent coach and leader. But I had an open mind. What I've seen so far gives me no reason to believe that he is good enough to get the best out of a squad of the calibre we can afford or to match the tactical nous of enough Championship managers to get us progressing. Maybe he has potential, maybe not. He's not "mental" but I'm not convinced that he isn't "out of his depth".

The next couple of games will be interesting, after what was evidently a much better performance at Newcastle yesterday. It would be great to be able to see some consistency in set up and performances, to see signs of an LJ team being more, rather than less, than the sum of its parts.

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

So Wednesdsy night, when the players seemed to lack heart and commitment resulting in a poor performance, it was outright LJ's fault? 

Today he selects a group of players who gave him and the club everything, but it's nothing to do with Johnson, it's about the players level of effort?

Make up your mind people, you can't have it both ways. This is getting beyond ridiculous! 

That's not what I was trying to get across, but I accept that I didn't word it very well.  I don't blame Lee for everything and I didn't post-Wednesday, but my main argument is that the buck stops with him.  If players either aren't performing , or can't be trusted I expect LJ to sort them out. To finally work out who he can trust after 3-4 months of poor results is not good management.  And my own jury is out about whether he'll "Un-trust" some of these players when they have a bad game.  I really can't work out what is happening.  Why can the players be so inept on Wednesday and excellent yesterday?  Why have the players he's turned to let him down, and others ones cast aside, to then come back into the fray?

Perhaps he's finally worked it out?  I hope so.  We'll know more on Tuesday, won't we, and Burton on Saturday.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

@spudski I couldn't agree more with your posts above. 

@AshtonGreat the thing is with shutting up shop is that you are inevitably going to allow the opposition chances. And you're relying on rock solid defending to deny and thwart every attack/ chance. That's why Johnson is so adamant on the touch line in trying to get players up the pitch. I remember against Reading, we were sitting ridiculously deep. So Johnson bought on Wilbraham up top to support Abraham at 2-1 and for large parts it worked. However, we conceded 2 more goals because of basic mistakes, rather than our general performance in the last 15-20mins. 

I think the poster below has covered some of the Reading stuff for me, but he is right, we played deep all game.  Part of the reason for us capitulating was imho (a mere football fan not a qualified coach, or even the club's head coach), we changed from 4141/451 to going 442.  We had 5 across the midfield that cut the spaces down the sides, when Wilbs came on, I thought he would go into midfield or Tammy would go left mid. 

6 hours ago, lager loud said:

We've been set up different ways in different games; often different ways within the same game. In the second half against Fulham there were times I couldn't work out what formation we were supposed to be playing. Against Reading we started the game playing deep. As far as I could tell we were playing for a 0-0 but happened to go 2 up. I never had any confidence that we would keep a clean sheet (although we might, of course, have avoided letting in three).

Against Cardiff it became clear after about an hour that Brownhill had run out of steam and we were losing the midfield. LJ did nothing about it and we kept losing the midfield and ended up losing the game.

We've had Tomlin playing wide right for 25 minutes with LJ taking 24 minutes longer than many of us to realise this left us rather exposed down that side.

Early on against Fulham it was clear that their extra player in central midfield was going to cause us problems. I actually think the high press we started with made this worse, because it left gaps between our midfield and defence which were easy to exploit. When we 'went narrow' Fulham were good enough to spread the ball wide. I don't think overcoming that would have been easy, but they're Fulham, not Barcelona, and it should have been possible for a Championship coach to come up with something to counteract them.

Fulham actually played the game LJ talks: organised pressing out of possession, slick pass and move football in possession. I have seen little or no evidence of that from us even when City have got results this season.

There's no doubt players have underperformed - including against Fulham. But I think LJ should bear a a much larger share of the responsibility for our position than you assign him. If we are going to adopt a strategy of buying young players with potential (which I wholeheartedly agree with) we need coaches who can develop them and help realise their potential and a first team coach who can organise the team. I see no evidence that LJ is (yet) that man or that the coaching generally is getting the most out of the players we have.

I have no knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes at City, so I base all the above on what I've actually seen from the Dolman this season. Like many City fans, I was underwhelmed when I heard LJ had been appointed, because he hadn't been around for long enough to prove himself as a competent coach and leader. But I had an open mind. What I've seen so far gives me no reason to believe that he is good enough to get the best out of a squad of the calibre we can afford or to match the tactical nous of enough Championship managers to get us progressing. Maybe he has potential, maybe not. He's not "mental" but I'm not convinced that he isn't "out of his depth".

The next couple of games will be interesting, after what was evidently a much better performance at Newcastle yesterday. It would be great to be able to see some consistency in set up and performances, to see signs of an LJ team being more, rather than less, than the sum of its parts.

I'm looking forward to our first 'date' road-trip to Villa on Tuesday.  I think we have similar thoughts on the game. 

[Jack Dawe]

9 hours ago, spudski said:

 

Perhaps the nervous energy is felt by the players from the crowd?

Every time we need that energy, it happens after the crowd get behind the team. That doesn't happen enough imo, compared to many other grounds. Our away support is terrific...they sing, chant and support.

Our home fans, pay, sit, watch and moan...in general. Maybe there's a connection....apathy on the field reflecting what's surrounding them. Just a thought...not saying it's the reason, but it can't help.

 

But we have won seven at home, and only two away. 

You are going down the road SL turned into last week by suggesting, unless the crowd do this or that, then the team cannot summon the energy to hassle the opposition, or perform to their best. This is cobblers, spud, and an abdication of responsibility. Passing the buck. Ducking the issue. 

We are two points off third bottom and staring relegation in the face - if that doesn't get you running around chasing lost causes and getting in the face of the opposition, then you lack the necessary "DNA" to be a professional footballer, never mind play for Bristol City, and you are cheating the people paying to watch you.

 

 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

But we have won seven at home, and only two away. 

You are going down the road SL turned into last week by suggesting, unless the crowd do this or that, then the team cannot summon the energy to hassle the opposition, or perform to their best. This is cobblers, spud, and an abdication of responsibility. Passing the buck. Ducking the issue. 

We are two points off third bottom and staring relegation in the face - if that doesn't get you running around chasing lost causes and getting in the face of the opposition, then you lack the necessary "DNA" to be a professional footballer, never mind play for Bristol City, and you are cheating the people paying to watch you.

 

 

I'm not actually...but you've chose to read it that way. It was part of a whole conversation, rather than just one post on it's own. Of course it would be cobblers in the context you are referring to.

It's something that has been an epidemic at our Club pretty much since the GJ era. It wasn't aimed at LJ's team in general.

I see us very much at home, as a crowd that reacts positively only when the team is playing well. It's very rarely a crowd trying to motivate the players when energy is low. The crowd tends to sit in silence, mutter and tut when passes go astray...we might get a half hearted 'c'mon you reds.'

We are more often than not reactionary rather than pro active in our support in general.

[Jack Dawe]

53 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm not actually...but you've chose to read it that way. It was part of a whole conversation, rather than just one post on it's own. Of course it would be cobblers in the context you are referring to.

It's something that has been an epidemic at our Club pretty much since the GJ era. It wasn't aimed at LJ's team in general.

I see us very much at home, as a crowd that reacts positively only when the team is playing well. It's very rarely a crowd trying to motivate the players when energy is low. The crowd tends to sit in silence, mutter and tut when passes go astray...we might get a half hearted 'c'mon you reds.'

We are more often than not reactionary rather than pro active in our support in general.

I don't disagree, we are more reactive than proactive (like the majority of grounds these days). But that was the same in August, September and October, when we won a few games. 

The slow build up play of too much of LJ's time here plays it's part in this. Some games have been so tedious, very little to lift you out of your seat.

Apologies if I misunderstood the whole conversation, I haven't read it all 

[spudski]

11 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

I don't disagree, we are more reactive than proactive (like the majority of grounds these days). But that was the same in August, September and October, when we won a few games. 

The slow build up play of too much of LJ's time here plays it's part in this. Some games have been so tedious, very little to lift you out of your seat.

Apologies if I misunderstood the whole conversation, I haven't read it all 

No worries JD...I think the whole reference to what SL has been quoted as saying, has been taken out of context as well.

From my interpretation, it was along the lines of 'leave your moaning to forums and social media, and support the team when at the ground'.

I don't know how others feel...but if your team is on a bad run like we were, and feeling the pressure mounting for each game, then surely support is more beneficial than berating and booing and having a go at the manager on match day? As a player...you're already under intense scrutiny and pressure during such games, and however much the fans feel frustrated, the players won't react positively to a negative atmosphere.

I don't know perhaps it's just me...for an example, I think Little is way out of his depth in this league and he'd never be in my team. However...regardless of his mistakes, I would encourage him...'C'mon Litt's...you can do him' etc,etc. Whilst others around me, would utter disdain towards him and shout out how crap he is.

Now I don't get that as a supporter. The player is representing your club on the day...whether you feel he's good enough is another matter. We want them all to do their best on match day, regardless of whether we think they should be playing or not, or it's the right formation picked.

Positive support, it seems is harder to find at home, than so much moaning. Granted it's hard to summon up enthusiasm to support when playing so bad...but surely that's when the '12th man' is needed the most...not when we are playing well and winning?