Engvall

[GrahamC]

28 minutes ago, Touch_my_butter said:

Do you think Bournemouth are having the same discussion about Nathan Ake (£20m), Tyrone Mings (£8m), Jordan Ibe (£15m), Benik Afobe (£10m), Josh King (tribunal), Callum Wilson (£3m), or even Lys Mousset (£7m) - who we were supposedly in for?

No - they buy young, promising, top-end talent. Some are going to work out, some won't. They are happy for the ones that do, and don't get hung up on the ones that don't.

If you can propose a superior transfer strategy, I'd like to hear it.

Seriously?

The Prem is in every respects a completely different league.

You get circa £100m for finishing bottom, our prize/ TV money is nearer £5m.

[Nibor]

Just now, Touch_my_butter said:

I see, so the overall strategy is right, but you would like to see every player we buy be a success?

Can't argue with that.

No, I accept that some will not work out (I think I might have said so several times in this thread) but that it should not be acceptable for a transfer of this size to be seemingly such a long way wide of the mark.  I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

[Nibor]

Just now, Touch_my_butter said:

I'm fairly sure Steve Lansdown and Mark Ashton have a better grasp of 'what the finances are or what FFP means' than any of us.

I'm fairly sure that you have no idea what you're talking about.  I'm not calling into question their grasp of FFP (yet, we haven't seen the accounts).  I'm calling into question signing a player at great expense who the manager has not been willing to try.

[Touch_my_butter]

Just now, Nibor said:

No, I accept that some will not work out (I think I might have said so several times in this thread) but that it should not be acceptable for a transfer of this size to be seemingly such a long way wide of the mark.  I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

Prices have been rising exponentially for the last few years - 7 figures for a top-talent youngster is nothing in today's market.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, son.

[REDOXO]

23 minutes ago, Touch_my_butter said:

Do you think Bournemouth are having the same discussion about Nathan Ake (£20m), Tyrone Mings (£8m), Jordan Ibe (£15m), Benik Afobe (£10m), Josh King (tribunal), Callum Wilson (£3m), or even Lys Mousset (£7m) - who we were supposedly in for?

No - they buy young, promising, top-end talent. Some are going to work out, some won't. They are happy for the ones that do, and don't get hung up on the ones that don't.

If you can propose a superior transfer strategy, I'd like to hear it.

A club that has gone bankrupt twice for sure worries about money and who doesn't work out. A Pre tax loss in 2015 of 39.1M. But in the same year valued at 105M. Mainly due to being in the Premier League. Laughable  

They know they have to take risks to survive and do. Luckily our risks are on a smaller scale. Like LJ. 

[Nibor]

Just now, Touch_my_butter said:

Prices have been rising exponentially for the last few years - 7 figures for a top-talent youngster is nothing in today's market.

Don't hate the player, hate the game, son.

I don't know how many times you need to read the same thing for it to sink in but clearly it's more than I'm willing to write it.

[Touch_my_butter]

Just now, Nibor said:

I don't know how many times you need to read the same thing for it to sink in but clearly it's more than I'm willing to write it.

Agreed, we're going in circles - differing opinions on the same issue.

Let's hope Engvall has a blinding season and we both end up being right :-D

As a side point: I'd appreciate it if you left out the Ad Hominem form of argumentation - saying things like 'you clearly don't understand...' or 'you clearly don't know what your taking about' doesn't add anything relevant to the discussion - attack the points made, not the man making them.

[Nibor]

3 minutes ago, Touch_my_butter said:

Agreed, we're going in circles - differing opinions on the same issue.

Let's hope Engvall has a blinding season and we both end up being right :-D

As a side point: I'd appreciate it if you left out the Ad Hominem form of argumentation - saying things like 'you clearly don't understand...' or 'you clearly don't know what your taking about' doesn't add anything relevant to the discussion - attack the points made, not the man making them.

Pointing out that someone has misunderstood is not an ad hominem.  If you'd do me the courtesy of actually reading what you're replying to we could avoid this confusion.  Anyway, I also hope Engvall has a great season.

[Touch_my_butter]

Just now, Nibor said:

Pointing out that someone has misunderstood is not an ad hominem

It is if it doesn't apply:

"I am right on this issue, everyone else just doesn't understand it properly."

This is only true with objective facts, not matters of opinion.

Anyway, let's put this to bed - still got 2 hours of work left today... 

[Major Isewater]

47 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Is it? Aside from the top 5 or 6 big spenders with parachute payments. For £2m I'd expect us to be getting a player that's in and around the first team to be honest.

Burton spent £400k last summer, THAT'S peanuts.

I believe so.

I agree with you that for 2 million a player should be in or around our first team but a) I understand Engval 's fee wasn't 2 million 

and

b) The transfer fees  have gone up massively so 2 million doesn't buy you a world beater anymore .

I would love Matty Taylor to have a 20 goal season just to prove that bargains can be had and also to irritate the Gas .

Anyhow stop arguing with me and get back to finding our next signing . 

[REDOXO]

Engval concerns me. However he is not alone. Of these which one's have been classified as a roaring success since signing

Tomlin 

Magnusson

Moore

Djuric 

Engval

ODowda

Taylor 

Hegler

ONeil

Brownhill

Degirolamo

Matthews 

Giefer

Patterson

Lukic

Wright*

Cotterill

Ekstrand

Did I miss anyone?

 

 

[Touch_my_butter]

Just now, REDOXO said:

 

Did I miss anyone?

Tammy 

[REDOXO]

Just now, Touch_my_butter said:

Tammy 

Exactly my point! 

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Engval concerns me. However he is not alone. Of these which one's have been classified as a roaring success since signing

Tomlin 

Magnusson

Moore

Djuric 

Engval

ODowda

Taylor 

Hegler

ONeil

Brownhill

Degirolamo

Matthews 

Giefer

Patterson

Lukic

Wright*

Cotterill

Ekstrand

Did I miss anyone?

 

 

How many class as failures? I'd say very few. We could have Guardiola in charge and there will be transfers that don't work out. Many of the ones you listed were not recruited with a view to being in and around the first time so you simply can't say they haven't been a success. 

On that list I'd say one total failure (AM) and a couple who have fallen short of what was expected (LT, GON)

The rest either promising youngsters or made a good contribution to a fairly young and new squad. 

[Touch_my_butter]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

How many class as failures? I'd say very few. We could have Guardiola in charge and there will be transfers that don't work out. Many of the ones you listed were not recruited with a view to being in and around the first time so you simply can't say they haven't been a success. 

On that list I'd say one total failure (AM) and a couple who have fallen short of what was expected (LT, GON)

The rest either promising youngsters or made a good contribution to a fairly young and new squad. 

Exactly - very few failures, lots of potential for next season (we won't have to buy all this young talent again), and a lot of re-sale value.

Tammy was clearly the shining star, but in another world he might have had a plodding season with 10-15 goals and it could have been one of the others that had the break out.

All-in-all, very exciting to see how we view these players at the end of the coming season.

I think the following will have had 'good' seasons (thus justifying their transfer fees and the 'wasted' money on the others who don't work out so well):

- Brownhill

- Magnusson

- Taylor Moore

- COD

- Diédhiou

[BRISTOL86]

1 minute ago, Touch_my_butter said:

Exactly - very few failures, lots of potential for next season (we won't have to buy all this young talent again), and a lot of re-sale value.

Tammy was clearly the shining star, but in another world he might have had a plodding season with 10-15 goals and it could have been one of the others that had the break out.

All-in-all, very exciting to see how we view these players at the end of the coming season.

I think the following will have had 'good' seasons (thus justifying their transfer fees and the 'wasted' money on the others who don't work out so well):

- Brownhill

- Magnusson

- Taylor Moore

- COD

- Diédhiou

I'd say Paterson had a good season after a run in the team and Taylor, Djuric, Cotterill, Hegeler all played their part. 

I think there's a good season ahead for most on that list, obviously barring the loanees who have returned. 

None of us know the deal with engvall and whether we're likely to see what he can or can't do, but I think LJs transfer business has been, on the whole, positive. Rome wasn't built in a day etc...

He's also openly admitted his mistake and that the balance wasn't quite right in terms of youth vs experience last summer. I expect all the young signings to have a better second season. 

[REDOXO]

Just now, BRISTOL86 said:

How many class as failures? I'd say very few. We could have Guardiola in charge and there will be transfers that don't work out. Many of the ones you listed were not recruited with a view to being in and around the first time so you simply can't say they haven't been a success. 

I didn't say they they haven't been a success I asked which ones can be classified as a roaring success since signing. Until now it's not a good ratio and we are still buying players.

The ones recruited to play now from that list are the ones in the first team squad This does not include DeGerlamo. Every other one got first team games and was on the bench at least once. Bought to play or provide competition.

Of the failures thus far we can say Ekstrand and Matthews no one would argue with.

The rest have everything to prove not just Engval.

We finished the season with Largely Steve Cotterill's team (blessings be upon him), plus Taylor 300k, Brownhill (insert price here), Patterson 500k and Tammy starting....To me that is a massive indictment of the policy so far...I hope we reap the benefit  (as I said somewhere today) next season but LJ has it all on the line now!

Freeman and Ayling could not get out fast enough which scares me to death.

 

 

 

[Touch_my_butter]

6 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Freeman and Ayling could not get out fast enough which scares me to death.

They went from nailed-on first team regulars to bench-warmers

[REDOXO]

Exactly again!

Not warming any benches at Leeds or QPR though! In fact both players have had a lot of praise since moving

[Touch_my_butter]

4 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Exactly again!

Not warming any benches at Leeds or QPR though! In fact both players have had a lot of praise since moving

If they were both still here, would they get in your best 11?

Don't know what the new RB is like, but think we can and will have better options than both of the Lukes.

[Major Isewater]

15 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

I didn't say they they haven't been a success I asked which ones can be classified as a roaring success since signing. Until now it's not a good ratio and we are still buying players.

The ones recruited to play now from that list are the ones in the first team squad This does not include DeGerlamo. Every other one got first team games and was on the bench at least once. Bought to play or provide competition.

Of the failures thus far we can say Ekstrand and Matthews no one would argue with.

The rest have everything to prove not just Engval.

We finished the season with Largely Steve Cotterill's team (blessings be upon him), plus Taylor 300k, Brownhill (insert price here), Patterson 500k and Tammy starting....To me that is a massive indictment of the policy so far...I hope we reap the benefit  (as I said somewhere today) next season but LJ has it all on the line now!

Freeman and Ayling could not get out fast enough which scares me to death.

 

 

 

As I understand it Bill was a bit shocked to leave . He thought he was here for the long haul.

Freeman on the other hand ran his contract down and it was always on the cards that he'd go back to the Smoke .

Not quite the melodramatic scenario you evoke . 

[Touch_my_butter]

Yeah, Bill never really got over 'pissgate'

[REDOXO]

Just now, Touch_my_butter said:

If they were both still here, would they get in your best 11?

Don't know what the new RB is like, but think we can and will have better options than both of the Lukes.

That is a matter of form. But they would both be on the bench at least as they would give you something/good options unlike Engval among others.

Exactly again (you are hitting out of the ball park) we don't know about the new Full back. I think we can have better options too, its just a matter of finding them. Of all the players listed earlier Ayling and Freeman are as good as any of them and more consistent IMO.

 

 

[JamesBCFC]

3 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I also don't understand why fans (ours inparticular) seem to get so affronted by SL being happy to risk his cash on punts/investments. 

It concerns me about as much as the water flow pressure of the sags new state of the art sprinkler system does. 

We are very fortunate to have SL's wealth on our side and if he's happy to shell out a million here and 2 million there, on players who he feels MAY be a good investment, then lucky us!

Some he'll win, some he'll lose. Thankfully he can afford to dabble! 

Agree and disagree.

If he was handing out wages of 20k+ per week or whatever to all the players I would be very concerned.

We saw big (and long) contracts handed out before, with diasterous consequences, and last time up here we gave big wages to crap players.

 

With transfer fees I do agree though. Many on here do not seem to realise the cost of players in todays market, or understand that developing a player isn't something that happens overnight.

 

Engvall was a bit of a gamble, but it is still too soon to say if it had paid off or not. Right now it doesn't look like it, but there is not a single person on here (to my knowledge) who has watched Engvall enough to accurately guage if he will make it here.

[REDOXO]

8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

As I understand it Bill was a bit shocked to leave . He thought he was here for the long haul.

Freeman on the other hand ran his contract down and it was always on the cards that he'd go back to the Smoke .

Not quite the melodramatic scenario you evoke . 

Freeman made it clear a long time ago, after LJ's arrival, he would not sign despite contracts being offered multiple times until the club decided to cut its losses. We all remember the will he wont he last January 

I'm not sure what you mean by shocked to leave and what/who you may or may not know. Leeds made a bid the club accepted it and Ayling chose to go. He didn't have to, he had a contract. The Cheltenham issue never seemed to settle down, but either way it was Leeds and a chance of the play offs v the bench here as the bloke mentioned earlier.

 

[INCRED]

29 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Agree and disagree.

If he was handing out wages of 20k+ per week or whatever to all the players I would be very concerned.

We saw big (and long) contracts handed out before, with diasterous consequences, and last time up here we gave big wages to crap players.

 

With transfer fees I do agree though. Many on here do not seem to realise the cost of players in todays market, or understand that developing a player isn't something that happens overnight.

 

Engvall was a bit of a gamble, but it is still too soon to say if it had paid off or not. Right now it doesn't look like it, but there is not a single person on here (to my knowledge) who has watched Engvall enough to accurately guage if he will make it here.

I seen Engval twice last season and have to say he impressed me with his touch, work rate and pace so can't for the life of me understand why he didn't get much of a look in. Maybe he struggled to settle in and the club needed to try and support him and by loaning him back to his home country they have given him a bit of time away to prepare him to return for the new season. I think he has all the attributes to be a top striker providing he can setttle in 

[pillred]

1 hour ago, Touch_my_butter said:

Exactly - very few failures, lots of potential for next season (we won't have to buy all this young talent again), and a lot of re-sale value.

Tammy was clearly the shining star, but in another world he might have had a plodding season with 10-15 goals and it could have been one of the others that had the break out.

All-in-all, very exciting to see how we view these players at the end of the coming season.

I think the following will have had 'good' seasons (thus justifying their transfer fees and the 'wasted' money on the others who don't work out so well):

- Brownhill

- Magnusson

- Taylor Moore

- COD

- Diédhiou

10 15 goals plodding season? blimey you're hard to please!

[BRISTOL86]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

I didn't say they they haven't been a success I asked which ones can be classified as a roaring success since signing. Until now it's not a good ratio and we are still buying players.

The ones recruited to play now from that list are the ones in the first team squad This does not include DeGerlamo. Every other one got first team games and was on the bench at least once. Bought to play or provide competition.

Of the failures thus far we can say Ekstrand and Matthews no one would argue with.

The rest have everything to prove not just Engval.

We finished the season with Largely Steve Cotterill's team (blessings be upon him), plus Taylor 300k, Brownhill (insert price here), Patterson 500k and Tammy starting....To me that is a massive indictment of the policy so far...I hope we reap the benefit  (as I said somewhere today) next season but LJ has it all on the line now!

Freeman and Ayling could not get out fast enough which scares me to death.

 

 

 

That's a bit of a stretch. Ayling was doomed after Cheltenham. Don't think he'd have gone for a minute had it been up to him. Fair points on the rest though. Plenty with something to prove. 

[REDOXO]

3 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

That's a bit of a stretch. Ayling was doomed after Cheltenham. Don't think he'd have gone for a minute had it been up to him. Fair points on the rest though. Plenty with something to prove. 

The Major said something similar about Ayling. It was up to him. He had a contract. But LJ had told him and Agard that they were not first choice players....Link below

I never saw anything about us putting him on a transfer list, but may have done (do clubs still have those?). Which means that either he was made available and circulated to club/s by BCFC or his agent openly or on the quiet, or The Leeds bid was un-solicited I suspect Leeds were aware of his availability either way.

Leeds V City while LJ was working out ways of not playing him. I'm pretty confident about what was going through his mind and his progress supports he is happier at a Leeds. Pembo even explained Luke is a very good player but not a good fit for us...Once the bid came in he could not get out fast enough and who could blame him.

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/transfer-luke-ayling-leeds-united-12916   

Either way we agree, plenty with something to prove not just Engval, which was annoying me a bit in this thread. Hopefully they will all come out firing...Fingers crossed right!!? CTID

[Son of Fred]

1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

Agree and disagree.

If he was handing out wages of 20k+ per week or whatever to all the players I would be very concerned.

We saw big (and long) contracts handed out before, with diasterous consequences, and last time up here we gave big wages to crap players.

 

With transfer fees I do agree though. Many on here do not seem to realise the cost of players in todays market, or understand that developing a player isn't something that happens overnight.

 

Engvall was a bit of a gamble, but it is still too soon to say if it had paid off or not. Right now it doesn't look like it, but there is not a single person on here (to my knowledge) who has watched Engvall enough to accurately guage if he will make it here.

To be successful in any role anywhere requires desire-thats where my biggest doubt lies with Gus.

I'm less than convinced he has the stomach to make it work here as he seems to be questioning the bigger picture..