Riot Police Deployment

[JulieH]

8 minutes ago, Norn Iron said:

So that's their rank in the police force.

I'm surprised we haven't had a march/boycott/Daily Newspaper campaign to get the police dogs upgraded to at least the rank of sergeant. Maybe higher ranking police dogs do higher profile home teams? Julie can tell us.

In that the sniffer dogs and handlers were from a private security company paid for by Manchester City.

[Robin1988]

It hasn’t been mentioned yet but my other half sits in the disabled section down in that corner.

During the pitch invasion against Man United, some yoofs/man children creamed  themselves a little too much to be allowed to stand on some grass and were physically clambering over the people sat in the disabled section.

As the name suggests, they had no chance to get away and at least one of them ended up in the medical room after the game.

They were lucky they weren’t more hurt, there were literally hundreds of people lolloping through that area without a care for who they smacked into (and many did).

The sad thing was when I suggested mentioning it to the club, they said “What’s the point? They won’t do anything.”

Maybe the response was OTT by filming people, but for the rest of it, it’s pretty simple. Don’t spend half a season letting off flares and injuring people mounting a pitch invasion when you beat a team you want to face twice next year and then be shocked when you get treated like kids.

[myol'man]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Up The City!

Out of interest, what were searches at Etihad like, consisting of?

Would be interesting to have something to compare our searches etc to.

Very, very thorough. You had to be searched going through a seperate gate before you reached the turnstiles with signs up warning you would be refused entry if any of the listed contraband was found. Separate entry point for the girls with female stewards doing the searches. Turnstiles were fully automatic with floor to ceiling gates with a further line up of stewards inside and out. one of them told me security has been increased since the Manchester Arena bombing.

[Super]

8 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

It hasn’t been mentioned yet but my other half sits in the disabled section down in that corner.

During the pitch invasion against Man United, some yoofs/man children creamed  themselves a little too much to be allowed to stand on some grass and were physically clambering over the people sat in the disabled section.

As the name suggests, they had no chance to get away and at least one of them ended up in the medical room after the game.

They were lucky they weren’t more hurt, there were literally hundreds of people lolloping through that area without a care for who they smacked into (and many did).

The sad thing was when I suggested mentioning it to the club, they said “What’s the point? They won’t do anything.”

Maybe the response was OTT by filming people, but for the rest of it, it’s pretty simple. Don’t spend half a season letting off flares and injuring people mounting a pitch invasion when you beat a team you want to face twice next year and then be shocked when you get treated like kids.

Agree with some of that, one thing for sure is they really don't help themselves in that section.

[Dollymarie]

27 minutes ago, Super said:

Agree with some of that, one thing for sure is they really don't help themselves in that section.

SOME in that section don’t help themselves, the vast majority are sensible and stick to the rules thanks  

[Stortz]

23 minutes ago, Super said:

Agree with some of that, one thing for sure is they really don't help themselves in that section.

And the police don't help anyone by being unnecessarily confrontational. I wasn't in S82 but the attitude from many of the police on Tuesday was open, sneering contempt in the concourse pre game and at half time too.

I'm not sure why some of them are so desperate to prove how hard they are by glaring aggressively at all and sundry- including me minding my own business with my 7 year old daughter- but I don't really think it's very conducive to any sort of engagement with fans, which is surely a better approach than outright hostility.

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Clarky89 said:

Yeah, this is an interesting one. 

Game was ruined for me with a bunch of riot police just glaring at me. It makes an uneasy atmosphere, especially when they start filming us, when there is no need. It rubs people up the wrong way. It's not the correct way to deal with it. It's intimidating. @JulieH, that needs to be fed back. I went from happy to agitated by the time it took me to turn and face the pitch from walking to me seat. 

You stop all the incidents that you address outside the ground. At The Etihad before you even got near the turnstiles every single person was searched, and searched properly - not the half arsed 'can you unzip your coat' youget at AG tow select few. Between the searching lines and the stadium, police Dogs were on patrol for anything that was missed by the search.

The result. 8,000 away fans, not causing any trouble without any police standing and staring at us throughout the game. No flares, no violence, nothing  

It worries me, and someone else said it, I genuinely think I could bring anything into AG. Luckily the worst I'd try and bring in is a hip flask of Whiskey! 

This exactly....the actions of the Police and Stewarding at Ashton Gate should be looked in to.

It's their actions that are intimidating...THEY become the problem.

I've seen this numerous times this season. What goes from a calm stand, becomes agitated or intimidated because of the actions of either Police or Stewards.

I witnessed this again on Tuesday.

In a very calm part of the ground ( where players and wags sit )....Steward Manager ( grey hair ) and his side kick ( big lad with beard ) behaving like Hitler and Stalin...completely devoid and unaware that it was their actions that were causing people to actually stand up and shout at them.

Standing up in front of the vommitory exits, blocking fans views. Just standing their and looking up at nothing. But in a manner that was outwardly aggressive. Then allowing 'randoms' to walk into the same spot and start taking selfies with their back to the pitch.

Then side kick decides to get his phone out and starts laughing and joking about something he's watching with another Steward whilst blocking peoples view.

Steward Manager actually gets shouted at, to stand down, stop blocking peoples view, to stop antagonising people, and actually being the cause of people becoming verbally aggressive.

I've not had any problems with any away fans, or fans of our own. No problems, no intimidation.

I'm not a fan who sings and shouts and stands...I'm one of those boring types that sits and watches and analyses the game...each to their own.

However....the point being made... @JulieH...with respect, I suggest when speaking with whoever deploys the Police and Stewarding, you discuss how not to agitate and annoy the paying public, the people you are their to serve and protect, not wind up and intimidate. The Police and Stewards actions ARE THE PROBLEM...it is their behaviour that is causing unrest.

It's not rocket science is it....line up Riot Police or Stewards, staring at you in an intimidating fashion or even filming...or behaving in an authoritarian manner that comes across as aggressive, you aren't going to get a happy and relaxed public. You are going to get a completely different response to the one you are actually trying to create.

From my experience, fans come in happy and in a good mood, with no intention of causing trouble. The only aggression I've personally witnessed is when Stewards or Police have caused it.

If you were studying a game as a neutral, you would actually come to a conclusion that it was the actions of the Police and Stewards that actually caused many problems.

If you want to stop items coming in to the ground, search people properly like they did at Man City. By far the best atmosphere I've been too in a long time...happy relaxed people, supporting their teams in the proper manner....because they weren't being intimidated by Police or Stewards. Worth considering maybe.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Stortz said:

And the police don't help anyone by being unnecessarily confrontational. I wasn't in S82 but the attitude from many of the police on Tuesday was open, sneering contempt in the concourse pre game and at half time too.

I'm not sure why some of them are so desperate to prove how hard they are by glaring aggressively at all and sundry- including me minding my own business with my 7 year old daughter- but I don't really think it's very conducive to any sort of engagement with fans, which is surely a better approach than outright hostility.

There are national guidelines on how police should engage with fans at football you know.

I doubt this description fits any of them!

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, spudski said:

This exactly....the actions of the Police and Stewarding at Ashton Gate should be looked in to.

It's their actions that are intimidating...THEY become the problem.

I've seen this numerous times this season. What goes from a calm stand, becomes agitated or intimidated because of the actions of either Police or Stewards.

I witnessed this again on Tuesday.

In a very calm part of the ground ( where players and wags sit )....Steward Manager ( grey hair ) and his side kick ( big lad with beard ) behaving like Hitler and Stalin...completely devoid and unaware that it was their actions that were causing people to actually stand up and shout at them.

Standing up in front of the vommitory exits, blocking fans views. Just standing their and looking up at nothing. But in a manner that was outwardly aggressive. Then allowing 'randoms' to walk into the same spot and start taking selfies with their back to the pitch.

Then side kick decides to get his phone out and starts laughing and joking about something he's watching with another Steward whilst blocking peoples view.

Steward Manager actually gets shouted at, to stand down, stop blocking peoples view, to stop antagonising people, and actually being the cause of people becoming verbally aggressive.

I've not had any problems with any away fans, or fans of our own. No problems, no intimidation.

I'm not a fan who sings and shouts and stands...I'm one of those boring types that sits and watches and analyses the game...each to their own.

However....the point being made... @JulieH...with respect, I suggest when speaking with whoever deploys the Police and Stewarding, you discuss how not to agitate and annoy the paying public, the people you are their to serve and protect, not wind up and intimidate. The Police and Stewards actions ARE THE PROBLEM...it is their behaviour that is causing unrest.

It's not rocket science is it....line up Riot Police or Stewards, staring at you in an intimidating fashion or even filming...or behaving in an authoritarian manner that comes across as aggressive, you aren't going to get a happy and relaxed public. You are going to get a completely different response to the one you are actually trying to create.

From my experience, fans come in happy and in a good mood, with no intention of causing trouble. The only aggression I've personally witnessed is when Stewards or Police have caused it.

If you were studying a game as a neutral, you would actually come to a conclusion that it was the actions of the Police and Stewards that actually caused many problems.

If you want to stop items coming in to the ground, search people properly like they did at Man City. By far the best atmosphere I've been too in a long time...happy relaxed people, supporting their teams in the proper manner....because they weren't being intimidated by Police or Stewards. Worth considering maybe.

 

 

 

 

Agree with most of this, absolutely do.

Football crowds are generally good humoured in my experience.

In contrast to your example, I think Dolman stewards are quite fair and reasonable in general, but other stands not so sure of their quality- or should I say the consistency of quality...

What you describe though, the example is incredibly unprofessional behaviour- a Steward Manager should especially know better- doubt he's a novice to the job.

[Super]

40 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

SOME in that section don’t help themselves, the vast majority are sensible and stick to the rules thanks  

Always the same the minority ruin it for the majority.

[Mr Popodopolous]

43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There are national guidelines on how police should engage with fans at football you know.

I doubt this description fits any of them!

Additionally- it's a bit of a mouthful but how well is this adhered to on a typical- and even a bigger attended- matchday? Interested to hear about this.

Especially the bits I bolded, that's the Community Engagement and bullet points 2,3 and 9.

Quote

Football spotter

Spotters should be regarded as both information/intelligence gatherers and community officers for football events. DFOs may also perform the role of a spotter at football events. A DFO will often have been an experienced spotter prior to commencing their role. Spotters should not be regarded as only having a knowledge and interest in ‘risk supporters’. DFOs and spotters will have a wider knowledge of all supporters associated with the clubs they police.

The effective deployment of both home and away team spotters during a football event is essential to it being a successful event. Their deployment provides opportunities for richer information and intelligence gathering. This will help to reduce the risk of disorder and further promote trust and confidence in the police service.

The spotter has two main roles:

1 – Information and intelligence – to provide a football policing operation with live and relevant information and intelligence on supporters, ensuring appropriate resource deployments by POPScommanders. On occasions it may also be appropriate to deploy them to gather evidence in support of FBO applications.

2 – Community engagement – to act as a link between the police and a club’s supporter community, with a view to achieving increased trust and confidence between the football operation and supporter community.

These two roles complement each other, eg, a spotter is required to communicate to commanders both positive and negative information and intelligence associated with supporters during an operation.

In addition, spotters must:

• have experience of policing football operations
• acquire a detailed knowledge of, and develop and maintain links with, a club’s supporter community
• maximise opportunities for richer information and intelligence gathering. This will help to reduce the risk of disorder and further promote trust and confidence
• possess extensive knowledge of the identities, tactics and strategies of persons who engage in violent disorder and other criminal activity associated with football, eg, risk supporters
• have a sound understanding of the principles and methods associated with intelligence management and covert policing
• be competent to collect, evaluate and disseminate intelligence products
• be efficient in documented and oral evidence presentation
• be competent (within local or national guidelines) to use relevant technical equipment, eg, video camera
• engage with the supporter community to improve police understanding of their identities, sensitivities and expectations and to enhance the police/supporter relationships at a club, eg, through developing and maintaining links with local supporters.

Due to their knowledge and links with supporters (including risk elements), spotters should be deployed to areas where there is the potential for either spontaneous or pre-planned disorder. Although this particular type of deployment will need to be dynamically risk assessed and approved by/communicated to commanders, the spotters’ knowledge and links could prevent or reduce any disorder.

Forces have the discretion to decide whether their spotters are level 2 public order trained. As a minimum, spotters should be aware of public order tactics and national standards. They may be expected to withdraw to a safe distance during outbreaks of disorder, to be replaced with officers specifically trained and equipped to deal with those situations.

Where disorder occurs, spotters should revert to their role as intelligence gatherers as this will enhance both the opportunities for obtaining future FBOs and/or assisting any post-match investigation.

All spotters are required to attend the accredited spotters training course delivered by the UKFPU.

(If that's exactly what Julie is doing though, consider my queries assuaged). 

[josh95]

Could netting like they have on some German stadiums help? So there won't be such a heavy police presence. 

[RumRed]

Am I the only person that thinks the police NOT going storming in mob handed when the trouble flared was probably a tactical thing?  Can you imagine if 8 riot coppers charged into the stand?  This place would go mad with comments such as 'it was only handbags',  'the stewards were there' or 'the fans were sorting it'.  Far better to assess the seriousness of the situation before going in and giving it a chance to calm down rather than inflame the situation.

 

 

[AshtonPark]

4 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Am I the only person that thinks the police NOT going storming in mob handed when the trouble flared was probably a tactical thing?  Can you imagine if 8 riot coppers charged into the stand?  This place would go mad with comments such as 'it was only handbags',  'the stewards were there' or 'the fans were sorting it'.  Far better to assess the seriousness of the situation before going in and giving it a chance to calm down rather than inflame the situation.

 

 

Or a much more common story now days, is to let trouble occur and not stop it. Have it all on CCTV/Police hand held cameras.

Few days later, people geting doors kicked down and banning order issued. If there was no arrests at football, there would be no need to police it. There has to be justification still by the police on their numbers.

[Hellfire Corner]

9 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

Didn't work at Fulham and they checked every away fan......and still they went off when we scored.

 

They didn’t check me!

[JulieH]

45 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Additionally- it's a bit of a mouthful but how well is this adhered to on a typical- and even a bigger attended- matchday? Interested to hear about this.

Especially the bits I bolded, that's the Community Engagement and bullet points 2,3 and 9.

(If that's exactly what Julie is doing though, consider my queries assuaged). 

That is indeed my role , police spotters attend each home and away game and are easily recognisable by blue shoulders on their high viz jackets

our spotting team has 10 members covering city and rovers and all of us are trained to the same standard.

my expectation is that all the spotters engage with fans at all times but also are able to assess quickly and deal with any incident at a football match, whether it is public order, missing persons or domestic incidents.

i feed back to them issues raised by fans from meetings with the slo etc and it is these officers who are working football on a regular basis.

the Manchester City game has 6 Bristol City spotters and 3 Manchester spotters.

please feel free to approach any of us at football games be it home or away, it is our specific role to engage with everyone involved in the fan base .  

 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

9 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

Didn't work at Fulham and they checked every away fan......and still they went off when we scored.

 

Stewards are not allowed to search under 18s with a pat down. Give the pyro to a child and they mule it into the ground. I should add I've never done this and don't advocate it. 

[Tin Soldier]

4 minutes ago, JulieH said:

That is indeed my role , police spotters attend each home and away game and are easily recognisable by blue shoulders on their high viz jackets

our spotting team has 10 members covering city and rovers and all of us are trained to the same standard.

my expectation is that all the spotters engage with fans at all times but also are able to assess quickly and deal with any incident at a football match, whether it is public order, missing persons or domestic incidents.

i feed back to them issues raised by fans from meetings with the slo etc and it is these officers who are working football on a regular basis.

the Manchester City game has 6 Bristol City spotters and 3 Manchester spotters.

please feel free to approach any of us at football games be it home or away, it is our specific role to engage with everyone involved in the fan base .  

 

I most certainly would not approach you at a football game - just don’t trust you lot! End of.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed.

Would go as far as to say secrecy around the SAG is a bit insidious.

It's almost as secretive as the Merchant Ventures that control Bristol.  We're meant to have fan representation on the SAG.  About as much chance of Wael whipping out a fresh wad of £50 notes from his wallet.

[pillred]

13 hours ago, JulieH said:

Not all of that area was season ticket holders for this cup game as it had further seats available to be sold as previously discussed regarding allocated seating

I find it amazing in an era where the police do nothing but complain about budget cuts lack of funding etc they can find so many officers to police a game where there was almost zero chance of any major trouble, {yes I know there are always a few idiots} surely there were more important things they could have been doing.

[Mr Popodopolous]

19 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Stewards are not allowed to search under 18s with a pat down. Give the pyro to a child and they mule it into the ground. I should add I've never done this and don't advocate it. 

Correct.

Certainly the stewards if they are male are not allowed to search or pat-down women- and it goes for U18s too. It's the safest way.

Open coats policy doesn't apply to them either for same reason.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, JulieH said:

That is indeed my role , police spotters attend each home and away game and are easily recognisable by blue shoulders on their high viz jackets

our spotting team has 10 members covering city and rovers and all of us are trained to the same standard.

my expectation is that all the spotters engage with fans at all times but also are able to assess quickly and deal with any incident at a football match, whether it is public order, missing persons or domestic incidents.

i feed back to them issues raised by fans from meetings with the slo etc and it is these officers who are working football on a regular basis.

the Manchester City game has 6 Bristol City spotters and 3 Manchester spotters.

please feel free to approach any of us at football games be it home or away, it is our specific role to engage with everyone involved in the fan base .  

 

Seems sensible enough. FWIW I think you do a good job at engaging and that on the forum and probably (not that I ever have need to speak to police in the ground) away from the ground etc too.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, JulieH said:

The searches I witnessed of away fans were thorough and private sniffer dogs were also used. 

 

3 hours ago, Norn Iron said:

So that's their rank in the police force.

I'm surprised we haven't had a march/boycott/Daily Newspaper campaign to get the police dogs upgraded to at least the rank of sergeant. Maybe higher ranking police dogs do higher profile home teams? Julie can tell us.

 

2 hours ago, JulieH said:

In that the sniffer dogs and handlers were from a private security company paid for by Manchester City.

I suspect Julie that, had you reflected before posting, you might have chosen simply to have given Norn Iron a 'HaHa' emoji .  

[RedLionLad]

2 hours ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

Stewards are not allowed to search under 18s with a pat down. Give the pyro to a child and they mule it into the ground. I should add I've never done this and don't advocate it. 

My post was with reference to the sniffer dogs being used at the turnstiles. Everyone got 'sniffed' yet smoke bombs still found their way in.

 

Either the dogs were useless or the pyro didn't stink.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If we are up for practical ideas, what about hand held scanners?

It's fairly unresearched but they are quick, reasonably cheap...

How cheap and civil liberties a key downside.

[TETBURY MASSIVE]

Another fine example of why the Police should be banned from the forum........ embarrassing....

but but but... she is here to help... and answer questions....... yet she doesn't do either... 

[Welcome To The Jungle]

25 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

My post was with reference to the sniffer dogs being used at the turnstiles. Everyone got 'sniffed' yet smoke bombs still found their way in.

 

Either the dogs were useless or the pyro didn't stink.

I see. An interesting question would be what happens if a dog detected something on a child. Would the child be denied entry? Could they be searched? 

[RedLionLad]

2 minutes ago, TETBURY MASSIVE said:

Another fine example of why the Police should be banned from the forum........ embarrassing....

but but but... she is here to help... and answer questions....... yet she doesn't do either... 

Keep the Police on here.

 

It's better to know they are lying rather than just assuming they are.

[RedLionLad]

6 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

I see. An interesting question would be what happens if a dog detected something on a child. Would the child be denied entry? Could they be searched? 

One would hope they would be denied entry.

 

Many terrorists around the world use children to commit attacks. A football stadium in the U.K. would be seen as a major target by them and I for one would be happy to see pyro dogs at all football grounds in the U.K.......if they could actually sniff the stuff out of course.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

23 minutes ago, RedLionLad said:

One would hope they would be denied entry.

 

Many terrorists around the world use children to commit attacks. A football stadium in the U.K. would be seen as a major target by them and I for one would be happy to see pyro dogs at all football grounds in the U.K.......if they could actually sniff the stuff out of course.

I understand that, but that said, if the child had nothing and the dog made a mistake (I don't know exactly how reliable dogs are). How could the child and/or guardian prove they have no banned items without a search?