Should he stay or go

[bpexile]

13 hours ago, BCFC Grim said:

Can't find where I put the bastard banners from last year........

[Major Isewater]

10 hours ago, Shtanley said:

It sort of implies their brain isn’t functioning correctly so needs to be shaken in order to regain normality. 

Oh, OK , thank you .

Normally shaking the brain leads to lesions and irreversible damage , see ex-boxers , so isn't a great way to think clearly.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Spot on. The existing players got us to 2nd and one of them loses his place to Diony for gods sake.

LJ said he needed 3 windows and in his fourth he signs that clown?  

That poor window and him trying to save face for the signings he made in it, cost us millions and promotion, sadly he will be still here to do likewise for many more windows yet.

[Major Isewater]

10 hours ago, Shtanley said:

It sort of implies their brain isn’t functioning correctly so needs to be shaken in order to regain normality. 

Oh, OK , thank you .

Normally shaking the brain leads to lesions and irreversible damage , see ex-boxers , so isn't a great way to think clearly.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Swede said:

Pointless post.

He's not going anywhere. 

Its about time we question the gutless performance of the players who consistently let him down

You mean the gutless players he brought here in the first place and the ones he cannot manage, if they let him down its his fault for letting them do so and still play

[reddogkev]

10 hours ago, KeepUpLino said:

We aren’t building **** all mate, Cardiff are though, they’ll be in the premier league AGAIN next season... All this look what we’ve built really bugs me.. relegation battle next year with Lee in charge for me.. or much if the same!!

Where is all this talk of a relegation battle coming from?  It's utter nonsense, I'm confident we'll be top ten next season. 

[Andy082005]

6 hours ago, Swede said:

Pointless post.

He's not going anywhere. 

Its about time we question the gutless performance of the players who consistently let him down

His players. His team. His responsibility

[1960maaan]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

What's the point of asking a rhetorical question?

I take it that's not rhetorical , in which case. You do get that this is a forum right? People come on here to ask questions, share theories and generally interact with other fans. If it was just for facts you may as well go on the BBC site or main BCFC site.

7 hours ago, stephenkibby. said:

Agree with most of that except the short man thing.That's a load of bollocks, Shanks,Fergie,Clough were not big men.  What do you think is the optimum hight for a manager to have the respect of his players? 6/4?

While I agree with your point (tongue in cheek or not) the comparison doesn't stand up. While they might not have been 6'6" they were all big characters with large personalities, LJ ain't that.

4 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Where is all this talk of a relegation battle coming from?  It's utter nonsense, I'm confident we'll be top ten next season. 

it comes from 3 wins in 19 games , it comes from not having a shot on target in 2 games, it comes from  62 shots at our goal in 3 games. TBF it took 13 games for our bad run to get to 8 defeats, 1 win , 4 draws mixed in.  If you don't like stats then the recent performances should be enough to make you very nervous for next year. 
I would love to know the reasons for your confidence.

[LondonBristolian]

Ultimately for me it comes down to what happens in the last five games. Not so much in terms of whether we get to the play-offs or not but more in terms of whether LJ can motivate the team to show a lot more fight and massively improved performances and something to build on for next season.

There is absolutely doubt we are in a much better place - league table-wise and as a club - than when he came in. The League Cup run was fantastic and we have played some superb football. I also think - whilst they have not shown it in recent weeks - we have the strongest set of players I can remember at the club.

But, in a way, therein lies the rub.  The strongest squad of players I can remember at the club should not be putting in performances like yesterday and, by all accounts, Brentford. And, whilst we have absolutely certainly improved this season, it is petering out and ending on 5 more performances like the last few will mean a long, summer and difficulty in raising morale for next season. There have to be questions about why these runs of form keep happening and also why players are signed and then immediately drop out of favour. Every manager has their preferred players, of course, but there seems to be a reluctance to pick fringe players who, like Kelly, have impressed or, like Eliasson, have the potential to do so, even though the team are doing badly. 

I honestly think that, were LJ to leave the club at the end of the season, he could go with his head held high having done a good job on balance and he would be able to take credit for establishing the club in the Championship and building a really good platform for us to work from. The question has to be whether he is the manager to take us to the next level beyond that. Based on October to December, the answer appeared to be "yes" but from January to now that has looked less and less likely. Young managers make mistakes but it is vital that they show the ability or learn from them and that is where the question mark currently lies. If LJ can show over the next five games that he can turn this around and we can end the season on a high with momentum for next season, then I hope he continues in the role. But, if the next five games continue like the last few, then it is the right time for him to move on. 

[cidered abroad]

8 hours ago, Rinkadink said:

So being a rugby guy I know things are different in the round-ball version of football but I don't see why people are calling for his head. I accept that form is poor but he has turned things around from last season, raised the profile of sport in Bristol and oversaw a great cup run in which Man U, one of the giants of the game, were toppled. 

Is fatigue a factor? What about the psychology of getting close in the cup and losing near the end or being unable to focus on the league? Is confidence lacking? Are your conditioning bods doing their best? Sports psychologists employed? Even if Johnson went, who would come in and do a better job? 

From my view it looks like he's done well overall but not without flaws, perhaps with some work in the off-season could fix a lot? Maybe he needs some extra input from those around him? I don't see why you'd bin someone who has brought us a considerable way in the past year after a couple of months of treading water following great form. Pat Lam and co at the rugby had a similar poor patch these past couple of months after Xmas, lost our unbeaten record then looked really shaky, especially at home... until an away win in truly awful conditions then yesterday's awesome performance with an injury ravaged squad which probably ruined the minds of poor Ealing (our closest competition) who went and unexpectedly lost today giving us the championship title. Lam still has a lot of work to do before we get where we want to be and I'd imagine Johnson is the same. If the poor form continues into the coming season, sure it's probably time to part ways so have a contingency plan in place, but it may be a little premature right now. 

It's the most memorable season City have had in my lifetime (and a family member used to play for the club) and I fear that things could take a turn for a worse if we act too hastily.

Like someone else on this forum who was claiming the Johnsons as City's best ever, you weren't born early enough!

Seriously, I get the parallel happenings at Bris but Pat Lam has a good previous record as a Head Coach. You and I know that Bristol's performances have been good enough to get promotion even with a couple or three iffy performances. And we both know that next season will be extremely hard. But Pat has been there and done it as a player and coach, so knows exactly what to expect in September. 

The problem with Johnson is the boom and bust every season. One each at Oldham, Barnsley and two at City. He was hardly an outstanding player and so far his managerial performances have been very erratic. 

Hasty action may be wrong but if it's left like this until City are bottom at end September, which will be the greater problem? And if Bris do the same again in the Premier as they did under AR, will Lam's head not be nearing the chopping block? 

[Wrongagain]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Spot on. The existing players got us to 2nd and one of them loses his place to Diony for gods sake.

LJ said he needed 3 windows and in his fourth he signs that clown?  

We will never know how much of a clown he is, he is runner and needs to get some service in order to show what he can do, with our current midfield that’s never going to happen, that why he has given up trying to run on - but is that down to the players or the coach?

[LondonBristolian]

7 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Like someone else on this forum who was claiming the Johnsons as City's best ever, you weren't born early enough!

Seriously, I get the parallel happenings at Bris but Pat Lam has a good previous record as a Head Coach. You and I know that Bristol's performances have been good enough to get promotion even with a couple or three iffy performances. And we both know that next season will be extremely hard. But Pat has been there and done it as a player and coach, so knows exactly what to expect in September. 

The problem with Johnson is the boom and bust every season. One each at Oldham, Barnsley and two at City. He was hardly an outstanding player and so far his managerial performances have been very erratic. 

Hasty action may be wrong but if it's left like this until City are bottom at end September, which will be the greater problem? And if Bris do the same again in the Premier as they did under AR, will Lam's head not be nearing the chopping block? 

I do think every time someone mentions LJ not being an outstanding player, they massively weaken their argument. Mourinho and Arrigo Sachi were not players at all. John Barnes and Tony Adams were superb footballers. I know which two I rate higher as managers.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

Where is all this talk of a relegation battle coming from?  It's utter nonsense, I'm confident we'll be top ten next season. 

With due respect you had us nailed on for auto not long ago

The last 3 months and our current form is relegation form 

 

Out of interest why do you think that’s suddenly going to change ?

Having slept on it. - Yesterdays post match interview was as worrying as any aspect of this

He , DH & JMc can’t get a tune out of them at the moment , and he’s fully admitting that ,  and the fact they don’t know what’s amiss !!!!

That , as far as I’m concerned really is a worry , as until you recognise and identify the problem , you are hardly likely to resolve it are you

[LondonBristolian]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

With due respect you had us nailed on for auto not long ago

The last 3 months and our current form is relegation form 

 

Out of interest why do you think that’s suddenly going to change ?

Having slept on it. - Yesterdays post match interview was as worrying as any aspect of this

He , DH & JMc can’t get a tune out of them at the moment , and he’s fully admitting that ,  and the fact they don’t know what’s amiss !!!!

That , as far as I’m concerned really is a worry , as until you recognise and identify the problem , you are hardly likely to resolve it are you

Indeed. I don't doubt LJ is really committed to getting things right and I really hope he does so but, if you can't get a reaction from players you largely bought then either:

a) you bought the wrong players

or

b) you are doing the wrong things. 

[reddogkev]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

With due respect you had us nailed on for auto not long ago

The last 3 months and our current form is relegation form 

 

Out of interest why do you think that’s suddenly going to change ?

Having slept on it. - Yesterdays post match interview was as worrying as any aspect of this

He , DH & JMc can’t get a tune out of them at the moment , and he’s fully admitting that ,  and the fact they don’t know what’s amiss !!!!

That , as far as I’m concerned really is a worry , as until you recognise and identify the problem , you are hardly likely to resolve it are you

I don't think it will suddenly change, but I prefer to be optimistic thinking about next season, and for me that is based on the first incredible 5 months we've had this season.  Yes it has been completely crap since then, but I cannot dismiss or forget the exceptional first part of this campaign.  I'm hoping that LJ will find a way to keep the good form going for a longer period of time.  And I believe that our Summer recruitment will be a thousand times better than January!

[Andy082005]

24 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Ultimately for me it comes down to what happens in the last five games. Not so much in terms of whether we get to the play-offs or not but more in terms of whether LJ can motivate the team to show a lot more fight and massively improved performances and something to build on for next season.

There is absolutely doubt we are in a much better place - league table-wise and as a club - than when he came in. The League Cup run was fantastic and we have played some superb football. I also think - whilst they have not shown it in recent weeks - we have the strongest set of players I can remember at the club.

But, in a way, therein lies the rub.  The strongest squad of players I can remember at the club should not be putting in performances like yesterday and, by all accounts, Brentford. And, whilst we have absolutely certainly improved this season, it is petering out and ending on 5 more performances like the last few will mean a long, summer and difficulty in raising morale for next season. There have to be questions about why these runs of form keep happening and also why players are signed and then immediately drop out of favour. Every manager has their preferred players, of course, but there seems to be a reluctance to pick fringe players who, like Kelly, have impressed or, like Eliasson, have the potential to do so, even though the team are doing badly. 

I honestly think that, were LJ to leave the club at the end of the season, he could go with his head held high having done a good job on balance and he would be able to take credit for establishing the club in the Championship and building a really good platform for us to work from. The question has to be whether he is the manager to take us to the next level beyond that. Based on October to December, the answer appeared to be "yes" but from January to now that has looked less and less likely. Young managers make mistakes but it is vital that they show the ability or learn from them and that is where the question mark currently lies. If LJ can show over the next five games that he can turn this around and we can end the season on a high with momentum for next season, then I hope he continues in the role. But, if the next five games continue like the last few, then it is the right time for him to move on. 

100% agree with you about the next five games. Make or break for Johnson...it really is. The play-offs are gone...anyone who says otherwise, are deluded...however he has to finish the season strongly otherwise as you said, it will be a long summer

Personally...I think he is all out of ideas and his post match comments after Millwall have proved it. He has now started throwing around the threats of "they are playing for their future"...when 2 months ago it was "we call ourselves a premiership club in training"

12 months ago we had all the "I need players I can trust".

Players have gone...new faces have come in, yet I feel we are right back to square one and right back to where we ended last season. Its like we need ANOTHER summer of rebuilding...when really, it should never have come to that 

I think what people are finding hard to swallow...myself included...is that in November/December time we all actually felt that he had matured as a coach and we really were moving in the right direction. We all felt that the club actually did have a game plan and LJ was starting ti execute it. Even the most negative of posters started to believe it.

Sadly it appears we all thought wrong

Some people are clinging on to this "bigger picture"  myth...when in reality, deep down, they know there isnt one.

The capitulation since January is so much more concerning then last seasons run of form. These are experienced players now who should have gone into the second half of the season and done exactly what Millwall have done. Played with no real pressure and expressed themselves. Thee results would have taken care of themselves

To capitulate like we have...there must be something wrong with the the coaching. 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Indeed. I don't doubt LJ is really committed to getting things right and I really hope he does so but, if you can't get a reaction from players you largely bought then either:

a) you bought the wrong players

or

b) you are doing the wrong things. 

Well summarised

Im absolutely sure about Lees work ethic and real desire to succeed 

But you’ve summarised the thoughts that have been going through my head

Hes recruited somewhere around 30 players and this is HIS squad that he’s retained and supplemented with numerous signings

So , he’s done his surgery , we’ve made mistakes with Tomlin and Matthews and moved on to a stage where the players were performing like Duracell bunnies on amphetamine but now suddenly the players are clearly not responding to him

The reasons are pivotal and must be identified quickly

All sorts of possibilities have crossed my mind and I have no knowledge of what , merely common sense and my experiences around football generally , but I certainly don’t think the three January signings and t immediate attempts to shoehorn them into the side with a complete negative effect , but persisted with ,may not have gone down too well

(If we as a fan base could , see this - what were the rest of the squad thinking )

[Red Skin]

Stay for me.  Positive outweigh negatives and don't believe in changing manager every couple of seasons. 

+ We will finish higher than most of us hoped for, competing against bigger clubs on higher budgets.

+ Played excellent football at times.  Injuries big factor on run.  (Pressing game exhausted core team, and Duric a big miss).

+ Still believe that almost everything at club is moving in right direction.

+ Players are growing together in experience and knowledge.  Young and still hungry squad.

+ LJ and coaching staff still developing and learning.

+ All too easy to blame manager.  The players need to shoulder responsibility.  For example, I do not believe the players are told not to shoot!  We had more shots that most teams in the early games of the season.

- Need some experience in in certain areas.  Sadly the pro we signed to provide this, O'Neilll, plagued by injury.

- Some players need shifting out.  Need to buy proven at lower division rather than too many obscure gambles.

- I do wonder if LJ has reverted to Over coaching again, like he admitted was a failing last season.

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

I don't think it will suddenly change, but I prefer to be optimistic thinking about next season, and for me that is based on the first incredible 5 months we've had this season.  Yes it has been completely crap since then, but I cannot dismiss or forget the exceptional first part of this campaign.  I'm hoping that LJ will find a way to keep the good form going for a longer period of time.  And I believe that our Summer recruitment will be a thousand times better than January!

Fair play you have a positive approach but those two highlighted words .....

Hope - We all do Kev , everyone of us I guess but ‘hope’ is just that and only that 

‘believe’ - Great to have if justified - Used a lot at times without any evidence to back up that belief and I guess in this case it depends what you think of our recruitment in the last 2-3 years - 

Mereely a personal opinion but I think it’s been random, puzzling, naive and generally very mixed at best with the latest window being as bad as anything that preceded it

Therefore I struggle to see where you get that belief from to be honest

 

Hope you’re right in all respects though but Indont see what it’s based on

 

[Top Robin]

It wouldn't be so bad if we had started the season off badly and got better......at least that would have shown that we were travelling in the right direction. But clearly there seems to be no progression for 4 months and and we are actually playing some of the worse football I have seen for a long time and you can only blame the manager for that.

It just tells me that the manager is out of ideas and clueless as to how to get us out of the slump.

In any other profession, such a long spell of poor performance would result in dismissal. 

 

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Fair play you have a positive approach but those two highlighted words .....

Hope - We all do Kev , everyone of us I guess but ‘hope’ is just that and only that 

‘believe’ - Great to have if justified - Used a lot at times without any evidence to back up that belief and I guess in this case it depends what you think of our recruitment in the last 2-3 years - 

Mereely a personal opinion but I think it’s been random, puzzling, naive and generally very mixed at best with the latest window being as bad as anything that preceded it

Therefore I struggle to see where you get that belief from to be honest

 

Hope you’re right in all respects though but Indont see what it’s based on

 

I'm with Kev in the glass half full camp, and my hope comes from the fact that we've shown we can do it, and my belief comes from last summers good transfer window (I never hope for much from winter windows).

Of course it's all about hope, belief, speculation, but by the same token I'm struggling to find anything in the 'out' posts that give any real hope or belief about what happens then. It's all very well saying get rid, but that leaves us as a manager less club! What happens next, and does anyone have any greater hope, belief or certainty about things suddenly becoming perfect?!

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

It wouldn't be so bad if we had started the season off badly and got better......

 

Like last year?! I think any poor run, whenever it happens, brings this sort of reaction?

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, italian dave said:

I'm with Kev in the glass half full camp, and my hope comes from the fact that we've shown we can do it, and my belief comes from last summers good transfer window (I never hope for much from winter windows).

Of course it's all about hope, belief, speculation, but by the same token I'm struggling to find anything in the 'out' posts that give any real hope or belief about what happens then. It's all very well saying get rid, but that leaves us as a manager less club! What happens next, and does anyone have any greater hope, belief or certainty about things suddenly becoming perfect?!

Agree with this Dave

Im not sure where we’d go from here if LJ does at some point get axed

SL is hell bent on his philosophy (Which is a ‘nice’ one and only achievable if you have the best or near best in key positions on the coaching and recruitment side - I’m not sure we have either right now)

Undoubtedly we would look for a coach that would follow the ethos and good ones of that ilk are not easy to identify or recruit

No point debating alternative ways to progress as it’s SLs call and he’s quite clear about how things will operate

[italian dave]

17 minutes ago, Red Army Faction said:

Stay for me.  Positive outweigh negatives and don't believe in changing manager every couple of seasons. 

+ We will finish higher than most of us hoped for, competing against bigger clubs on higher budgets.

+ Played excellent football at times.  Injuries big factor on run.  (Pressing game exhausted core team, and Duric a big miss).

+ Still believe that almost everything at club is moving in right direction.

+ Players are growing together in experience and knowledge.  Young and still hungry squad.

+ LJ and coaching staff still developing and learning.

+ All too easy to blame manager.  The players need to shoulder responsibility.  For example, I do not believe the players are told not to shoot!  We had more shots that most teams in the early games of the season.

- Need some experience in in certain areas.  Sadly the pro we signed to provide this, O'Neilll, plagued by injury.

- Some players need shifting out.  Need to buy proven at lower division rather than too many obscure gambles.

- I do wonder if LJ has reverted to Over coaching again, like he admitted was a failing last season.

100% with this RAF. 

I think this summers window will be important again, as you say some need moving on and for me a fit O'Neill type and a goalkeeper are our priorities.

Reflecting on the long journey back yesterday, I do wonder whether the whole 'we've over-achieved' thing that was going on early part of the year has been a factor. We saw a lot of it in the press, among fans, on here, and then we had the MA statement about us not having anticipated a promotion push. It's almost like that gave the players permission to take the foot off the gas and to think that they'd already done all that was expected of them this season.

I think that what LJ needs to do now is to instil into the players the fact that it's now not about the play offs, or about the league position at all, it's just about getting a bit of pride back in the final 5 games. 

[daored]

16 hours ago, tts_city said:

He will be here for years no matter what. accept it.

I don’t think there is any guarantee that Johnson will not walk.Whilst our collapse since the turn of the year has been staggering. If you look at Johnson from the outside, the general view seems to be, we play good football, we’re a small team (almost went down last year, and with a chance of the play offs this season). We have beaten several premier league teams, including Man Utd and gave Man City a game over two legs. 

Johnson is very good with the media, and this is why he is thought of so highly. Wasn’t he recently discussed as one of the best up and coming managers in the country.

There may be a situation where a job becomes available at  perceived bigger club in the summer and Johnson takes it. His stock within the game I would say is still high

[Bris Red]

He aint going.. as others have said we were knocking on deaths door, in the bottom 3 with banners around Bs3 saying get him out and the Lansdowns stayed true to him so they arnt going to bump him off now in this position, not a chance.. far far far too many reasons and positive jargon that will be flowing out of the usual suspects mouth in the defence of LJ.. you can hear it now ‘there has been great progression in terms of league position’ ‘the young players have come on leaps and bounds’ ‘we have a vision and Lee is central to that over the coming years’ etc etc etc.

We are stuck with him but I honestly think now like i have always felt LJ  isn’t the right man for Bristol City Football Club. He is a good guy, works hard and seemingly loves the club and city and fair play to him for that.. but for me these bad runs are beyond worrying, they show a young man who clearly doesn’t know how to amend these runs of form and again as others have said he literally cannot get a reaction from a squad that he has assembled. No one likes to keep moving managers, its a ballache i agree but its more of a ballache to just stick with the same. We wont reach the PL under Lee in my humble opinion, not ever. He hasn’t got it in him.

[JBFC II]

13 hours ago, tinman85 said:

He's dreadful. Sooner have Holloway and that was hard to write. 

That's rubbish and you know it, look at how poor QPR were when they came to ours, would you really want to watch that every week?

[DT The Optimist]

It’s comical. In December OTIB was loaded with posters saying how wrong they had been about LJ blah blah blah. The first half of the season had been absolutely exceptional. Back to a love in. 

The second half has been dross. So many appalling games with hardly a shot on goal, not  only the last two. Ipswich, that we won was equally dire. Many away games as well, Burton etc.  Now it LJ out  

The best chance of ever achieving anything is continuity and as long as he addresses it this summer I am happy. The season is from Aug to May and he had loads in the credit bank before this slump 

[bristolcitysweden]

Should he stay or should he go?

It's always tease, tease, tease..

 

[Son of Fred]

13 hours ago, Rich said:

I don't have and if I'm honest, I've never had much confidence in LJ as our manager. I don't think he showed anything as a young manager at his previous clubs to think he'd be a good manager for BCFC. I think, he was known to the owners, was young, cheapish, and available with compensation. I think he fitted the bill of what SL wants in his club, that is, young and hungry. Trouble is, he can't decide what to have from the menu to feed that hunger, especially when there's a greater variety of choice. Give him a choice of soup, for a starter, steak for main course and apple pie for dessert and he chooses correctly. Put two starters, three main courses and a cheeseboard as a dessert option and he cocks up his selection.

He must have spent twenty years at least in the game, four of which as a manager. If I'd spent that long in a profession with the intension of continuing into management, I'd know that job inside out. He was a rookie at Oldham and a rookie for the first part at Barnsley. If he doesn't know his job by now, he shouldn't be doing it.

Your right about selection....I wonder if our run of great form was because there were so many injuries that Lee couldn't tinker!...its not impossible as the more he has at his disposal then he pisses around..I'm convinced he even baffles himself!