If not LJ, then who?

[JBFC II]

8 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

Neil Warnock (would leave Cardiff if they went up, has said he prefers the champ)

Mick McCarthy - remarked earlier in the season how he would love to be able to spend £5M plus on a striker like Diedhiou. Proven record in this league

Chris Wilder 

Tony Mowbray

Steve McLaren

Alan Pardew

Gordon Strachan

Dean Smith

Neil Harris

Plenty of decent options. But our lot would just promote McAllister. 

Warnock - Would probably send us up but not sure I could watch that football every week

McCarthy - Done well at Ipswich on a limited budget but would do no better here than Johnson

Wilder - Would be a sideways move and is Sheff United through and through, wouldn't come here

Mowbray - Hahaha

McLaren - Failed to do anything with a Derby team where he spent million, no thanks

Pardew - Taken a decent West Brom team down, no thanks

Strachan - His record in England is poor, would never come here either

Dean Smith - Would be sideways move coming here, would love it but will never happen

Neil Harris - Loved by Millwall fans, wouldn't want to come here but again would be a decent appointment

Out of them, Warnock is the only option that is a) realistic and b) would move us forward

[Olé]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I do think one needs a staggering level of naivety to believe someone who has made over a billion pounds over a lifetime working in the financial sector does get on with strong characters. If that were true, there would be literally no way he would be where he is today.

Without necessarily disagreeing with your view of SL, as a point of order, the above statement isn't true at all, and I don't think for one moment that it is naive to wonder about the nature of leadership at Bristol City. Founders of incredibly successful companies can and often do have many flaws, for a start they are not recruited for their leadership or their interpersonal skills, they start the company and are often immovable from then on and what makes them successful and what remains their primary asset is simply their drive for and knowledge of their company and vision. Actually very often founders can be single-minded and autocratic towards others they hire.

SL co-founded HL and would have been in control from the start. Senior recruitment could quite easily have reflected the founders tolerance for others influence and it's certainly possible (and happens in many other businesses) that they could simply ignore or dispense with other senior employees they did not get on with or agree with, and recruit yes men. It's therefore hypothetically possible such a style of leadership structure has been replicated in the football club he owns. I agree with your overall point and about Cotterill, just chirping in to say it's a myth that a founder would have to be great at dealing with people to be a success - many famous founders aren't.

As to whether this really is true of SL - the only practical evidence we have is comments he made in defending LJ during our bad run last season, when he referred (in my view quite naively as much because I can keep mentioning it!) to a number of standing weekly calls/meetings he has with LJ where he discusses and influences football matters. Now as it happens, I think he's well within his rights as owner to do that and I would probably do the same if I bought a football club, but it also follows on from this, that a strong minded coach who tells him to "**** off and mind his own business or who did not agree with him, would not be someone he'd enjoy working with...

[Olé]

1 hour ago, yardy said:

I heard a rumour that Bas Savage has taken his coaching badges, surely nailed on for the hot seat here?

Perhaps he's already involved, that chance against Yeovil - clean through on goal and then voluntarily face-planting into the floor - is our season in a microcosm.

[pongo88]

There are some interesting suggestions but, before considering who SL might appoint, it’s worth eliminating the type of manager he wouldn’t appoint. We can rule out anyone has a strong argumentative personality; anyone who is currently on a Premier League salary (or would expect the same); anyone who wants to splash the cash on big signings to buy success. This eliminates many of the suggestions.  

Assuming SL wants to stick with the current ethos of bringing in young players and developing them, a new manager should have a good record as a coach. So, how about Steve Clarke? He had an excellent record as a coach at Chelsea, West Ham and Liverpool followed by managing West Brom and Reading. He’s currently manager of Kilmarnock with a win percentage over 50% I know it’s only SPL, but he’s managed to operate on a meagre budget and his salary wouldn’t be a problem 

[exAtyeoMax]

4 hours ago, Olé said:

Completely agree. There are no leaders at all. Bobby by example, but no one by fear. Korey is the only one who gees them up but no one, absolutely no one, gets into them and takes it personally when so many are off their game. Can you imagine half of Millwall's players tolerating the way we are playing? Players like Baker have a massive soft underbelly that a team like Millwall only need to tickle. There was so much hype about this bloke but he's being found out when we need performances.

Having commented on the video, the Lee Johnson press conference audio is an even more honest (and depressing) assessment, WOW, to quote a cliche he's pulling no punches (https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/audio-lee-johnson-post-millwall-away-press-conference/ from 2:50 onwards) - if he really feels that way about the players ("we've tried everything, given them a break ... if I knew the answer I'd have done it ... do they really want to be here") then I have both sympathy and respect for him. 

I wonder if our biggest problem is that LJ is never going to be a strong leader type figure (and if he's a good coach, he shouldn't have to be), BUT he  then also isn't comfortable having that sort of character in the team because strong and older personalities tend to end up clashing with him? Perhaps we're sort of in catch 22. As an observation, he  talks about busy players and I know what he means, but I also see a trend of them being  young, quiet, easily malleable players. It's no coincidence. 

I always fall back to business because that is what I know, and one of the easiest and most common mistakes/flaws in organisation I see time and again is younger managers/leaders (often with plenty going for them and lots of good ideas) downgrading the quality of leadership around them in their team because they are insecure in their own position and are terrified of being second guessed and can't manage strong personalities. And as a result the leadership throughout the team suffers.

If that is why we have no leaders, I think @Red Exile you have got to the heart of our problem.

wasn't that rumoured to be the one of the problems last season? 

[alexukhc]

34 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

Neil Warnock (would leave Cardiff if they went up, has said he prefers the champ)

Mick McCarthy - remarked earlier in the season how he would love to be able to spend £5M plus on a striker like Diedhiou. Proven record in this league

Chris Wilder 

Tony Mowbray

Steve McLaren

Alan Pardew

Gordon Strachan

Dean Smith

Neil Harris

Plenty of decent options. But our lot would just promote McAllister. 

Gordon Strachan 

[Jacki]

28 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Warnock - Would probably send us up but not sure I could watch that football every week

McCarthy - Done well at Ipswich on a limited budget but would do no better here than Johnson

Wilder - Would be a sideways move and is Sheff United through and through, wouldn't come here

Mowbray - Hahaha

McLaren - Failed to do anything with a Derby team where he spent million, no thanks

Pardew - Taken a decent West Brom team down, no thanks

Strachan - His record in England is poor, would never come here either

Dean Smith - Would be sideways move coming here, would love it but will never happen

Neil Harris - Loved by Millwall fans, wouldn't want to come here but again would be a decent appointment

Out of them, Warnock is the only option that is a) realistic and b) would move us forward

In what way is Warnock realistic?

He openly says he can’t stand us and Lansdown has said before that he’d never employ him. He’s also said that Cardiff will be his last job. 

Never going to happen. 

[city1983]

Kieth millen

[JBFC II]

Just now, Jacki said:

In what way is Warnock realistic?

He openly says he can’t stand us and Lansdown has said before that he’d never employ him. He’s also said that Cardiff will be his last job. 

Never going to happen. 

Fair enough, that makes none relalistic then!

[BS4 on Tour...]

12 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Those suggesting Dean Smith and Paul Cook are not facing facts.

Smith is favourite for the West Brom job this summer, a bigger club than us with Prem parachute payments in the part of the world Smith was born in.

Cook is s Scouser who left Pompey for a much smaller club in Wigan because they are in his native North West.

Neither are realistic shouts.

Mick McCarthy and Colin Appleton are the current favourites for the West Brom job....I’m not sure why so many people think those in football are always keen to return to the areas where they were born etc...

Some obviously are, but managers and players typically change jobs and move so often that they probably lose affinity with any area. Our country isn’t large enough to make people homesick and pine for their roots, because everywhere is only a few hours away...

[BobBobSuperBob]

25 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Mick McCarthy and Colin Appleton are the current favourites for the West Brom job....I’m not sure why so many people think those in football are always keen to return to the areas where they were born etc...

Some obviously are, but managers and players typically change jobs and move so often that they probably lose affinity with any area. Our country isn’t large enough to make people homesick and pine for their roots, because everywhere is only a few hours away...

*cough*

Michael Appleton 

(You do deserve that one mate as you are very keen on precise )

[Jacki]

5 hours ago, Red Exile said:

I agree that he comes across as sincere, wanting to improve and I'm sure as frustrated as anyone on here. The piece of the jigsaw that seems to be missing in the whole BCFC set up is the wise old hand who's been there and done it and can offer wisdom and reassurance, can steady the ship when things are going wrong and get things back on course swiftly. Full credit to the for the performances before Christmas but the coaching staff and playing squad are chaps without experience of experience at a higher level, or of getting there. That's the missing bit for me. At all levels. In football terms what have any of the regulars achieved at the highest level?

I'm including SL and MA in this. If we're stuck with Lee Johnson I'd like to think he had a mentor who can get hm through this seeming inability to turn around losing streaks. And I'd like to see some more proven experience in the playing squad, respected players with battle scars. We need leaders on and off the pitch.

I agree re the leadership point. 

I said on here about 2 months ago that O’Neil could have been key in the run in. Things were starting to unravel around then, and I felt that his knowhow and experience of actually having seen it through and achieved success at this level would be a real asset to us on the pitch in some tight games. He’s had about 10 minutes of first team action in all of that time. Why was it not him playing ahead of Walsh last week v Brentford? 

I guess we’ll never know but when we lack leadership to the extent we do, surely it would have been worth a try. As it is now, I think we all know in our heart of hearts that it’s too late. 

[GrahamC]

19 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Mick McCarthy and Colin Appleton are the current favourites for the West Brom job....I’m not sure why so many people think those in football are always keen to return to the areas where they were born etc...

Some obviously are, but managers and players typically change jobs and move so often that they probably lose affinity with any area. Our country isn’t large enough to make people homesick and pine for their roots, because everywhere is only a few hours away...

Let’s wait & see, I reckon Smith will be attracted by the West Brom job, much more than if we had a vacancy.

[bengalcub]

Seriously, little Lee despite the form from jan has done exceptionally well this season yes we will now miss the play offs but to even consider sacking him is ridiculous he has earned another year at least,  will we be where we are now next season I doubt it but at least he deserves the chance , to play o’dowda Yesterday after the amount of time he’s been missing was standard little Lee nievety however I hope he learns from his many selection mistakes this season . 

[Dastardly and Muttley]

What’s Joe Jordan up to nowadays? Not as manager, but could see him adding a bit of steel to the coaching team. Certainly wouldn’t be putting out some of these gutless performances as seen recently.

[tinman85]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

Warnock - Would probably send us up but not sure I could watch that football every week

McCarthy - Done well at Ipswich on a limited budget but would do no better here than Johnson

Wilder - Would be a sideways move and is Sheff United through and through, wouldn't come here

Mowbray - Hahaha

McLaren - Failed to do anything with a Derby team where he spent million, no thanks

Pardew - Taken a decent West Brom team down, no thanks

Strachan - His record in England is poor, would never come here either

Dean Smith - Would be sideways move coming here, would love it but will never happen

Neil Harris - Loved by Millwall fans, wouldn't want to come here but again would be a decent appointment

Out of them, Warnock is the only option that is a) realistic and b) would move us forward

And watching our football is so bloody exciting ain't it!! Dross week in week out under Johnson. Also by the way please list the achivements, trophies and promotions from our current manager before you laugh at someone like Mowbray. Pardew can't be blamed for WBA. Damage was done already. 

[Bobfish]

6 hours ago, Olé said:

Completely agree. There are no leaders at all. Bobby by example, but no one by fear. Korey is the only one who gees them up but no one, absolutely no one, gets into them and takes it personally when so many are off their game. Can you imagine half of Millwall's players tolerating the way we are playing? Players like Baker have a massive soft underbelly that a team like Millwall only need to tickle. There was so much hype about this bloke but he's being found out when we need performances.

Having commented on the video, the Lee Johnson press conference audio is an even more honest (and depressing) assessment, WOW, to quote a cliche he's pulling no punches (https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/audio-lee-johnson-post-millwall-away-press-conference/ from 2:50 onwards) - if he really feels that way about the players ("we've tried everything, given them a break ... if I knew the answer I'd have done it ... do they really want to be here") then I have both sympathy and respect for him. 

I wonder if our biggest problem is that LJ is never going to be a strong leader type figure (and if he's a good coach, he shouldn't have to be), BUT he  then also isn't comfortable having that sort of character in the team because strong and older personalities tend to end up clashing with him? Perhaps we're sort of in catch 22. As an observation, he  talks about busy players and I know what he means, but I also see a trend of them being  young, quiet, easily malleable players. It's no coincidence. 

I always fall back to business because that is what I know, and one of the easiest and most common mistakes/flaws in organisation I see time and again is younger managers/leaders (often with plenty going for them and lots of good ideas) downgrading the quality of leadership around them in their team because they are insecure in their own position and are terrified of being second guessed and can't manage strong personalities. And as a result the leadership throughout the team suffers.

If that is why we have no leaders, I think @Red Exile you have got to the heart of our problem.

I do wonder if you have hit on something here - the underlined part in bold - as it would explain a lot. If he wants players that are, lets say, more malleable and willing to agree with him without comment or disagreement, then it fits the description of LJ’s recent statement about this team not being “mentally strong” enough and “needing to be loved” as qualities such as being mentally strong, confrontational, displaying resilience and leadership are almost at odds at being malleable and unwilling to voice their opinions. Perhaps this is why these long stints of bad runs occur as he assembles these teams, of usually younger players, he can “trust” and when things are good things are good, but when the cracks show then this type of personality is less likely to be able to display the grit and, something LJ often goes on about, self-belief to turn things around. Then the cascade continues. This would also explain the lack of leaders we have on the pitch, as whilst we have some stronger characters who do organise, such as smith and more recently flint, note that flint has never stepped up to the role of captain, something as a regular he must have been offered. Besides, it needs more than a couple of stronger characters if such traits have been, intentionally or not, filtered out. It would also explain why LJ appears to have such trouble with players who have played at a higher level than him, who might feel this allows them to be more vocal. – o’neil – who I believe stated on social media he has been fit for 8 weeks, plus allegedly reported as voicing opinions last season, hegeler, and recently baker – ? pack “rested” on the bench. Tomlin may be included in this list, but those problems are likely to be more of Tomlin’s own making.  

Someone mentioned how useful o'neil's leadership would be on another thread, so appologies to that person but I couldn't find it again to quote.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Jacki said:

In what way is Warnock realistic?

He openly says he can’t stand us and Lansdown has said before that he’d never employ him. He’s also said that Cardiff will be his last job. 

Never going to happen. 

When has Warnock ever said he can’t stand us? My impression is he rather likes us.

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

*cough*

Michael Appleton 

(You do deserve that one mate as you are very keen on precise )

Fair play! 

[Olé]

@Bobfish agree 100%. It does feel to me like this is our single biggest problem, and you've played out the logic even more clearly than I did.

Sol Bamba punched Warnock last season and he could be their player of the season and a promotion winner this, and it looks like he would kill himself for the bloke now. Winners aren't always easy people to manage, but you have to find a way. Leaders who are scared of being second guessed or can't manage confrontation, always end up consciously or unconsciously making compromises in their recruitment to avoid large personalities they perceive might find them out or expose their limitations.

In business the common advice to managers is to hire people as good as yourself and who will push you to your own limits. Unfortunately time and again young leaders do the complete opposite. Insecurity is such a crippling deterrent to good judgement. As you've illustrated, it adds up in our case that we have players who can perform and are talented as we've seen this season, but become completely passive and invisible if things go against us. When did "leader" last get mentioned in the DNA?

O'Neil mentions on Twitter from time to time that he has been fit and available for about 9 weeks (I think some irritation implied) - I have no idea if he'd help but it seems fairly clear that he might be the only person with anything approaching the sort of experience/leadership attributes we need in our squad, and I assume his influence as an experienced leader could conceivably have turned into something more destructive if he never gets a look in - that was certainly the impression I was given about the dynamic with him when Tomlin was around. In the meantime LJ keeps returning to a theme of players he can trust, but I worry that means subservient, not winner.

[BobBobSuperBob]

27 minutes ago, Bobfish said:

I do wonder if you have hit on something here - the underlined part in bold - as it would explain a lot. If he wants players that are, lets say, more malleable and willing to agree with him without comment or disagreement, then it fits the description of LJ’s recent statement about this team not being “mentally strong” enough and “needing to be loved” as qualities such as being mentally strong, confrontational, displaying resilience and leadership are almost at odds at being malleable and unwilling to voice their opinions. Perhaps this is why these long stints of bad runs occur as he assembles these teams, of usually younger players, he can “trust” and when things are good things are good, but when the cracks show then this type of personality is less likely to be able to display the grit and, something LJ often goes on about, self-belief to turn things around. Then the cascade continues. This would also explain the lack of leaders we have on the pitch, as whilst we have some stronger characters who do organise, such as smith and more recently flint, note that flint has never stepped up to the role of captain, something as a regular he must have been offered. Besides, it needs more than a couple of stronger characters if such traits have been, intentionally or not, filtered out. It would also explain why LJ appears to have such trouble with players who have played at a higher level than him, who might feel this allows them to be more vocal. – o’neil – who I believe stated on social media he has been fit for 8 weeks, plus allegedly reported as voicing opinions last season, hegeler, and recently baker – ? pack “rested” on the bench. Tomlin may be included in this list, but those problems are likely to be more of Tomlin’s own making.  

Someone mentioned how useful o'neil's leadership would be on another thread, so appologies to that person but I couldn't find it again to quote.

I noticed that a couple of posters alluded to words involving  senior players , prior to Brentford Game (Not a clue the truth in this) but being cynical did wonder on seeing the seemingly bizarre team selection whether Pack and Baker  on bench was ? coincidence ?

But then they both started yesterday 

Seems all a bit of a mess right now in all honesty

[JBFC II]

54 minutes ago, tinman85 said:

And watching our football is so bloody exciting ain't it!! Dross week in week out under Johnson. Also by the way please list the achivements, trophies and promotions from our current manager before you laugh at someone like Mowbray. Pardew can't be blamed for WBA. Damage was done already. 

Mowbray has had one promotion in an 16 year managerial career, and that was with West Brom who any manager could have got up, that’s his only achievement and he’s been managing for a fair bit longer than Johnson!

Maybe pardew can’t be blamed for West Brom’s demise (although he has done nothing to stop it) but all that he’s done in his 20 year managerial career is a 2nd placed finish, a play off win and an fa cup final, hardly astonishing either

[Jacki]

35 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

When has Warnock ever said he can’t stand us? My impression is he rather likes us.

Maybe you’re right but I always sense that he doesn’t like us (his constant references to the pitch invasion when he was Palace manager being one indicator), and that he can’t stand SL.

I’d be astonished if he ever wanted to come here, and even more so if we ever gave him that option. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Jacki said:

Maybe you’re right but I always sense that he doesn’t like us (his constant references to the pitch invasion when he was Palace manager being one indicator), and that he can’t stand SL.

I’d be astonished if he ever wanted to come here, and even more so if we ever gave him that option. 

According to him he’s tried before 

Dont want to start the Warnock Views War again , and it’s irrelevant as SL wouldn’t appoint him , but I think Warnock would come here or have come here in a flash

[Jacki]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Mowbray has had one promotion in an 16 year managerial career, and that was with West Brom who any manager could have got up, that’s his only achievement and he’s been managing for a fair bit longer than Johnson!

Maybe pardew can’t be blamed for West Brom’s demise (although he has done nothing to stop it) but all that he’s done in his 20 year managerial career is a 2nd placed finish, a play off win and an fa cup final, hardly astonishing either

A mate of mine is a big Newcastle fan and they absolutely hated Pardew. Since he left them he’s had a run of 2 wins in over half a season at Palace and 1 win in about 20 games at WBA. If you think LJ is a streaky manager, Pardew is even more so. I wouldn’t want him anywhere near here. 

[Jacki]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

According to him he’s tried before 

Dont want to start the Warnock Views War again , and it’s irrelevant as SL wouldn’t appoint him , but I think Warnock would come here or have come here in a flash

Has he said that about any of our recent managerial searches? I’d have thought he was talking about years ago when he made those comments. 

[Bobfish]

8 minutes ago, Olé said:

@Bobfish agree 100%. It does feel to me like this is our single biggest problem, and you've played out the logic even more clearly than I did.

Sol Bamba punched Warnock last season and he could be their player of the season and a promotion winner this, and it looks like he would kill himself for the bloke now. Winners aren't always easy people to manage, but you have to find a way. Leaders who are scared of being second guessed or can't manage confrontation, always end up consciously or unconsciously making compromises in their recruitment to avoid large personalities they perceive might find them out or expose their limitations.

In business the common advice to managers is to hire people as good as yourself and who will push you to your own limits. Unfortunately time and again young leaders do the complete opposite. Insecurity is such a crippling deterrent to good judgement. As you've illustrated, it adds up in our case that we have players who can perform and are talented as we've seen this season, but become completely passive and invisible if things go against us. When did "leader" last get mentioned in the DNA?

O'Neil mentions on Twitter from time to time that he has been fit and available for about 9 weeks (I think some irritation implied) - I have no idea if he'd help but it seems fairly clear that he might be the only person with anything approaching the sort of experience/leadership attributes we need in our squad, and I assume his influence as an experienced leader could conceivably have turned into something more destructive if he never gets a look in - that was certainly the impression I was given about the dynamic with him when Tomlin was around. In the meantime LJ keeps returning to a theme of players he can trust, but I worry that means subservient, not winner.

 

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I noticed that a couple of posters alluded to words involving  senior players , prior to Brentford Game (Not a clue the truth in this) but being cynical did wonder on seeing the seemingly bizarre team selection whether Pack and Baker  on bench was ? coincidence ?

But then they both started yesterday 

Seems all a bit of a mess right now in all honesty

I've run out of likes so quoting you both will have to do. The more I think about this, the more it fits. Before we signed Tomlin, after the "sign him up" chant 4-0? game, LJ did an interview on rb where he frequently mentioned Tomlin being a maverick and a "big personality", with some apprehension. And I am sure he mentioned during our cup run that he wanted to have a few moments with Mourinino then pep about "managing personalities", considering the greats they have worked with.

In interviews, both dean holden and JM (nice guys, but hardly intimidating) have mentioned that they are allowed to voice their views of what they agree/disagree with in their office, but once they leave their office no disagreement is allowed. This, whilst I suppose showing a unified front, also shows LJ doesn't like being confronted or questioned in front of the players, and I doubt the players themselves have a opportunity to question except whilst in training/group scenarios. Most managers would take such in their stride, but LJ's insistence hints at insecurity, which is slightly surprising judging by how much he likes the camera - when things are going well, that is. Yet many famous people are incredibly insecure.

Perhaps this is why the greater experienced, and perhaps vocal, pemberton was removed.

If this is a major cause of our problems then what is the solution, other than for LJ to man up or get out?

 

 

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, Jacki said:

Has he said that about any of our recent managerial searches? I’d have thought he was talking about years ago when he made those comments. 

He didn’t specify specifically when but talked about working for an owner like SL so within SLs stewardship 

[Olé]

2 minutes ago, Jacki said:

If you think LJ is a streaky manager, Pardew is even more so. 

Absolutely. Perhaps we could get them both on a job share, and swap them over each time a bad run starts. 

[Northern Red]

3 minutes ago, Jacki said:

A mate of mine is a big Newcastle fan and they absolutely hated Pardew. Since he left them he’s had a run of 2 wins in over half a season at Palace and 1 win in about 20 games at WBA. If you think LJ is a streaky manager, Pardew is even more so. I wouldn’t want him anywhere near here. 

Yep. Simply a Premier League version of LJ.