Is Lee Johnson in credit?

[roddy-d]

2 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Interesting thought, although I've seen enough of him since to think maybe the right decision was made. 

Two trophies, in all honesty what players are better?? LJ has brought in?? Don't think so myself if the board backed him then yes. 

[bcfcredandwhite]

38 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

His Father finished 4th , 10th and had us comfortably in 12th when he got ousted in March 2010

Unintentionally I’m sure but you have just proved my point  

NOBODY has kept us up for 3 seasons. Even if we get dicked 10-0 every game we are still safe - so Lee will have done it  His Dad only managed 2 - which leads nicely on to .... your comment about Gary being sacked/leaving whilst we were comfortable at 12th - comfortable at 12th? I agree  - but we are currently 11th and within 4 points of the playoffs and that is NOT comfortable? And what happened to us when his dad DID leave/was sacked? Did we go from strength to strength? Not in my book. We REGRESSED big time and I don’t want a repeat of that mess.

LJ IN 

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

6 hours ago, hodge said:

So finishing 7th would be a sack-able finish? Get real

Finishing 3rd in two consecutive seasons was enough to get Danny Wilson the sack...

[RobintheRed Red]

7 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

The first half of the season was clearly incredible. We were second. We knocked United out of the cup and ran City close twice. 

The second half has been the reciprocal of the first. Absolutely dire. 

For every bit we were good in the first half, we’ve been terrible in the second half. 

So is LJ in credit? And by how much? 

If I were to rate him, I’d score him 55/100. Ever so slightly in credit. There’s no doubt that in December I’d have scored him in the high 90’s and for the second half, he’s pretty much in single figures. 

I’m not saying that he’ll be sacked, we found out last season that he’s by and large unsackable, but is he in credit for you?

Patience of some is running low and I can understand why. 

The mans a c......t

[havanatopia]

7 hours ago, hodge said:

Promoted teams are always liable to give it a go first season they're up, they have momentum and still have the feel good factor, its also why so many teams suffer double relegations from the prem. Next season will be interesting to see how both do. 

Its a bit hit and miss if you study it; City being a case in point of the opposite of course.

Is LJ in credit?... Very hard question. I suppose you have to compare with who else the club could have attracted and given the same budget; virtually anyone; there are so few jobs available. Would a bunch of other candidates have done as well or better over 2 and a 1/2 seasons? Still hard to tell. Some yes.

I think he would have been much more in credit had the form been rather more even and his signings been, by and large, decent. Neither has been the case. Other managers would have done better I think. His generally poor transfer dealings, especially of late, have directly finished our play off chances and the opportunity of the riches of the PL. So for those reasons i put him just above the water line. B- . When you get into C- territory your job security comes into view. He is safe for now and rightly so.

[ChippenhamRed]

8 hours ago, roddy-d said:

If only Cotts had this support.

Cotts who was making massive bids for players like Gray and Gayle? That Cotts?

[ChippenhamRed]

12 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

The first half of the season was clearly incredible. We were second. We knocked United out of the cup and ran City close twice. 

The second half has been the reciprocal of the first. Absolutely dire. 

For every bit we were good in the first half, we’ve been terrible in the second half. 

So is LJ in credit? And by how much? 

If I were to rate him, I’d score him 55/100. Ever so slightly in credit. There’s no doubt that in December I’d have scored him in the high 90’s and for the second half, he’s pretty much in single figures. 

I’m not saying that he’ll be sacked, we found out last season that he’s by and large unsackable, but is he in credit for you?

Patience of some is running low and I can understand why. 

I have LJ at about 58/100 at the moment. Moderately in credit, but it could quickly evaporate with a poor start to next season, and there remain an awful lot of questions about his ability.

While we were around the top six I consistently defended him by pointing to league position improvement as indicative of broad year-on-year improvement. Indeed, this will be our 4th consecutive season of improvement in that respect. In purely statistical terms that represents undeniable progress.

The “look at the backing he’s had” argument is a fallacy. Some will compare him to previous managers in this respect - that doesn’t work in a market where unremarkable second tier strikers now change hands for £10m-plus. The £2.5m we spent on Maynard in 2008 would probably require 2-3 times that amount now. It also doesn’t work if you compare us with other Championship teams; we are clearly operating with a bottom-half budget. So you could say Johnson is over-achieving based on finances.

However my problem is with the way we have declined since Christmas, and the level of performance since then. Brentford was the nadir for me. It was a bad as I’ve seen for years. After that game I found myself asking, if we really have progressed, why was it even possible to play so badly, with so little discernible pattern to our play? Then I start to question the manager. Was the pre-Christmas run really due to his shrewd management, or did we just happen to stumble upon a winning formula for a while? If the manager was as capable as he was beginning to appear, why has he then overseen such a poor run and been able to do so little about it?

Then of course there is the recruitment. I wouldn’t overstate this; it’s clearly a mixed bag in terms of successes and failures, but that is the case with virtually all managers. Even Sir Alex bought Eric Djemba-Djemba and Massimo Taibi. But we really needed to capitalise in January and we signed three duds. That has to count against Johnson.

So, in summary...we have improved our league position and for that alone he is in marginal credit. But in terms of performance level - right here, right now - I wouldn’t say we’re much better off than when he walked through the door. I would stick with LJ for now, but I wouldn’t lose  any sleep if he left and I’d be curious to know what a Dean Smith or Mick McCarthy could do with this squad.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

7 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Unintentionally I’m sure but you have just proved my point  

NOBODY has kept us up for 3 seasons. Even if we get dicked 10-0 every game we are still safe - so Lee will have done it  His Dad only managed 2 - which leads nicely on to .... your comment about Gary being sacked/leaving whilst we were comfortable at 12th - comfortable at 12th? I agree  - but we are currently 11th and within 4 points of the playoffs and that is NOT comfortable? And what happened to us when his dad DID leave/was sacked? Did we go from strength to strength? Not in my book. We REGRESSED big time and I don’t want a repeat of that mess.

LJ IN 

 

Interesting how you decide to view it and I’ve not unintentionally proved your point

If you want to argue that in his 2 1/2 seasons he’s kept us up  as some special accolade

His finishes 18th after a relegation battle , 17th after a relegation battle and a likely 11th / 10th

His Father (After turning us around from the gates of L2 and after adding another promotion on his CV ) , without the extensive resources laid at Lees door had us  4th , 10th and we were comfortable in 12th when he was ousted , and we unsurprisingly survived that 3rd Championship season

So for you to try and claim that LJ has done something special or of merit is both bemusing and laughable

For their respective 2 (and part of a third) seasons in Championship

18th 17th & 11th 

Or 

4th , 10th and 12th

 

You do the maths......

 

 

[reformed_red]

Absolutely "in credit". 

Board wont sack him, and nor should they.

He HAS to address the slumps in form, but I'm adding nothing new to the debate as others have addressed that issue already. 

Where the die will be truly cast will be in the summer. LJ wants to succeed, of that I've no doubt. The club could keep the "two of our own" (and others) and add a sprinkling of quality to give us that little bit extra over the course of a season where it's needed. Or, they cash in. They buy more for the future. 

In credit? Who, LJ or BS? The summer will tell us what the real "philosophy is", and we will learn if LJ is the chief mayor or the court jester in this charade.

[ScottishRed]

4 minutes ago, reformed_red said:

Absolutely "in credit". 

Board wont sack him, and nor should they.

He HAS to address the slumps in form, but I'm adding nothing new to the debate as others have addressed that issue already. 

Where the die will be truly cast will be in the summer. LJ wants to succeed, of that I've no doubt. The club could keep the "two of our own" (and others) and add a sprinkling of quality to give us that little bit extra over the course of a season where it's needed. Or, they cash in. They buy more for the future. 

In credit? Who, LJ or BS? The summer will tell us what the real "philosophy is", and we will learn if LJ is the chief mayor or the court jester in this charade.

But mate that is the strategy - buy cheap, 'develop' , sell at a profit.

Rinse and repeat.

It is fine if all you want to do is 'hopefully' stand still but as a plan to get to the PL it is at best, wildly optimistic.

[BCFC Grim]

Not that it will happen but I'd get rid. He lacks ideas and it's quite obvious  we won't push on in the long run. His loss of form at Barnsley and twice here in three seasons is atrocious and he's clearly not learning from them. I see a few have said give him another transfer window, so he can waste some more? Even SL must be wondering if he can trust Johnson and Ashton with it? He said he would need 5 windows to get where he wants us to be? Well at the moment  we are heading in one direction........I know they said life goes down hill after you  tie the knot, but I seriously  didn't think it would affect City 

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

But mate that is the strategy - buy cheap, 'develop' , sell at a profit.

Rinse and repeat.

It is fine if all you want to do is 'hopefully' stand still but as a plan to get to the PL it is at best, wildly optimistic.

And

only works if you have an excellent scouting network

and 

Excellent Coachi/ Coaching team to develop those players

[CotswoldRed]

3 minutes ago, BCFC Grim said:

Not that it will happen but I'd get rid. He lacks ideas and it's quite obvious  we won't push on in the long run. His loss of form at Barnsley and twice here in three seasons is atrocious and he's clearly not learning from them. I see a few have said give him another transfer window, so he can waste some more? Even SL must be wondering if he can trust Johnson and Ashton with it? He said he would need 5 windows to get where he wants us to be? Well at the moment  we are heading in one direction........I know they said life goes down hill after you  tie the knot, but I seriously  didn't think it would affect City 

I thought it was 3 windows? 

[reformed_red]

12 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

But mate that is the strategy - buy cheap, 'develop' , sell at a profit.

Rinse and repeat.

It is fine if all you want to do is 'hopefully' stand still but as a plan to get to the PL it is at best, wildly optimistic.

I'm not sure that is the strategy though.

Diedhiou was record signing.

Pisano, O'Neill, Baker, Djuric don't fit that bill either. 

Even those we've signed "for the future" have cost significant money, i.e. O'Dowda, Engvall (), Walsh.

We will only know the true intent of the plan once transfer window closes in the summer. 

Either way LJ must improve, but we can only expect him to achieve in line with the ambition of the board.

[Dolman Block B]

14 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

He will have next season to get it right. If he doesn't and shows no signs of being able to turn around a poor run then what's the point as he clearly isn't learning. And I think SL will be forced to think twice if we are down the bottom.

The worrying thing is taking this current form and same squad into the 18/19 season

If we lose the likes of Bryan and Reid they need replacing with quality, not possibly players from Yoevil. 

Since December 30th we have played 22 games 

Won 4 Drew 6 Lost 12 which is dire. 

The January signings have been piss poor whereas all around us strengthened with good players. 

Its a shame the season has fizzled out.

Let’s hope the new season starts well 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Interesting how you decide to view it and I’ve not unintentionally proved your point

If you want to argue that in his 2 1/2 seasons he’s kept us up  as some special accolade

His finishes 18th after a relegation battle , 17th after a relegation battle and a likely 11th / 10th

His Father (After turning us around from the gates of L2 and after adding another promotion on his CV ) , without the extensive resources laid at Lees door had us  4th , 10th and we were comfortable in 12th when he was ousted , and we unsurprisingly survived that 3rd Championship season

So for you to try and claim that LJ has done something special or of merit is both bemusing and laughable

For their respective 2 (and part of a third) seasons in Championship

18th 17th & 11th 

Or 

4th , 10th and 12th

 

You do the maths......

 

 

Absolute poor form and results since January...and we can all sit here and try to work out why. There's been a post on every scenario at the Club, from the tea lady to SL and everything in between. Everyone is to blame for something.

How I look at it...as you showed above...GJ was going in one direction ( however situations in the league are incomparable imo ) and LJ is going in the other direction.

If we finish 10/11th then isn't that progress and what most thought we'd finish. Anything higher is a bonus imo.

A platform to build on for next season. So many other clubs doing the same over the past few seasons...Derby, Fulham, Boro etc.

Granted...it's all been very disappointing considering our start, but we've shown we can beat the best on our day, it's now finding the consistency to do it more.

Better to be into a plan and improving than starting all over again imo.

Would rather have a manager working with the club and owner, than someone who may not.

[RedRock]

LJ increasingly is reminding me of a kid in a toy shop with a rich Uncle. 

Whatever the latest ‘toy’, be it a buzzword (‘clutch’), piece of technology (training pitch interactive  ‘big screen’) or another player when we have four of that type on the bench already,  it becomes a ‘must have’. 

Someone needs to tell him ‘no’, you’ve got all the toys you’re having - including a  grass measuring device FFS - just get back to basics laddie. Make the best of what you asked for and have all ready been given pal.  

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

Absolute poor form and results since January...and we can all sit here and try to work out why. There's been a post on every scenario at the Club, from the tea lady to SL and everything in between. Everyone is to blame for something.

How I look at it...as you showed above...GJ was going in one direction ( however situations in the league are incomparable imo ) and LJ is going in the other direction.

If we finish 10/11th then isn't that progress and what most thought we'd finish. Anything higher is a bonus imo.

A platform to build on for next season. So many other clubs doing the same over the past few seasons...Derby, Fulham, Boro etc.

Granted...it's all been very disappointing considering our start, but we've shown we can beat the best on our day, it's now finding the consistency to do it more.

Better to be into a plan and improving than starting all over again imo.

Would rather have a manager working with the club and owner, than someone who may not.

LJ going in the other direction ?

Depends what you consider in this claim Spud _ Not since Christmas Spud - 

Plans and ethos thrown out the window , a coaching team who actually admit they don’t know what’s / why it’s gone wrong (Bit of a worry as if you don’t know you’re unlikely to be able to fix it)

Hap hazard muddled recruitment , any playing ethos or plan out the window , and an obvious lack of spirit taking a grip - not a great stable platform going into next season I’d suggest

Im surprised someone such as yourself looks at a finishing position as the only indicator of progress or not

As for a ‘platform’  to build on - do you honestly believe that with any confidence 

Scrutinising Recruitment , tactical approach , selections and his own sound bites ..........I’m afraid I don’t, Certainly without any real confidence

I fear the legs to our current platform , are likely to dissapear in the summer , and my confidence in those in place to replace and rebuild to even steady the ship is minimal

[spudski]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

LJ going in the other direction ?

Depends what you consider in this claim Spud _ Not since Christmas Spud - 

Plans and ethos thrown out the window , a coaching team who actually admit they don’t know what’s / why it’s gone wrong (Bit of a worry as if you don’t know you’re unlikely to be able to fix it)

Hap hazard muddled recruitment , any playing ethos or plan out the window , and an obvious lack of spirit taking a grip - not a great stable platform going into next season I’d suggest

Im surprised someone such as yourself looks at a finishing position as the only indicator of progress or not

As for a ‘platform’  to build on - do you honestly believe that with any confidence 

Scrutinising Recruitment , tactical approach , selections and his own sound bites ..........I’m afraid I don’t, Certainly without any real confidence

I fear the legs to our current platform , are likely to dissapear in the summer , and my confidence in those in place to replace and rebuild to even steady the ship is minimal

I'm looking at the bigger picture as to where we finish in the league BBSB.

I agree it's not been good since January...but it's about the season.

If we can build on it over the summer, then fine. If it goes pear shaped, then I'm sure something at the Club will change.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what goes on over the rest of the season and summer.

It's going to be interesting.

[BCFC Grim]

56 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I thought it was 3 windows? 

Which makes it even worse. Let's be honest he spouts so much rubbish at times he's probably said both.

Thank goodness we are still playing with our identity.........

[exAtyeoMax]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm looking at the bigger picture as to where we finish in the league BBSB.

I agree it's not been good since January...but it's about the season.

If we can build on it over the summer, then fine. If it goes pear shaped, then I'm sure something at the Club will change.

I'm actually looking forward to seeing what goes on over the rest of the season and summer.

It's going to be interesting.

Thank god there is the World Cup in-between 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Thank god there is the World Cup in-between 

I'd actually forgotten about that...will be playing golf instead ;-)

[CotswoldRed]

Just now, spudski said:

I'd actually forgotten about that...will be playing golf instead ;-)

Playing golf? That's harsh. What did you do so bad that the magistrate forced that upon you? 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, CotswoldRed said:

Playing golf? That's harsh. What did you do so bad that the magistrate forced that upon you? 

Great game mate...and pretty much every footballer I know plays it.

[bcfcredandwhite]

2 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

18th 17th & 11th 

Or 

4th , 10th and 12th

 

You do the maths......

 

 

I agree it’s interesting how we can view the same stats but with an opposite conclusion!!

i see an upward trend I’m no mathematician but I can plot a graph - does that count as ‘doing the maths’?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Moor2Sea said:

LJ increasingly is reminding me of a kid in a toy shop with a rich Uncle. 

Whatever the latest ‘toy’, be it a buzzword (‘clutch’), piece of technology (training pitch interactive  ‘big screen’) or another player when we have four of that type on the bench already,  it becomes a ‘must have’. 

Someone needs to tell him ‘no’, you’ve got all the toys you’re having - including a  grass measuring device FFS - just get back to basics laddie. Make the best of what you asked for and have all ready been given pal.  

 

 

Nice post M2S.  I bet he’s scanning his big tv, looking for stuff to tinker with that isn’t there / doesn’t need to be tinkered with.

Footballer’s in the main are simple, I get patterns of play, but in the heat of the moment, under pressure, they play by instinct.  LJ said last season he over-complicated things.  I think he got a bit carried away with mixing with Jose and Pep, and thought he needed to be clever, when actually all we needed to do was carry on what we were doing.

I don’t lay it all at LJ’s feet, the players need to share it too, as do the coaches, analysts, etc.

[Ska Junkie]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nice post M2S.  I bet he’s scanning his big tv, looking for stuff to tinker with that isn’t there / doesn’t need to be tinkered with.

Footballer’s in the main are simple, I get patterns of play, but in the heat of the moment, under pressure, they play by instinct.  LJ said last season he over-complicated things.  I think he got a bit carried away with mixing with Jose and Pep, and thought he needed to be clever, when actually all we needed to do was carry on what we were doing.

I don’t lay it all at LJ’s feet, the players need to share it too, as do the coaches, analysts, etc.

While I agree in theory Dave, was the style in which we were playing sustainable? The amount of injuries would suggest not but we most certainly still don't have a viable alternative. Did other clubs work out how to stop us when playing that style? Is a bigger squad the answer to cover for fatigue / injuries? By increasing the squad size, I guess we would be sacrificing quality? It's a proper dilemma but the stark change in playing style, as you say, has been our undoing.

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nice post M2S.  I bet he’s scanning his big tv, looking for stuff to tinker with that isn’t there / doesn’t need to be tinkered with.

Footballer’s in the main are simple, I get patterns of play, but in the heat of the moment, under pressure, they play by instinct.  LJ said last season he over-complicated things.  I think he got a bit carried away with mixing with Jose and Pep, and thought he needed to be clever, when actually all we needed to do was carry on what we were doing.

I don’t lay it all at LJ’s feet, the players need to share it too, as do the coaches, analysts, etc.

Good post Dave 

As for the highlighted bit - interesting but wouldn’t you have , ironically , think / guessed that any encouragement or advice from them would be ‘Carry on doing what you’re doing’

Instead of recognising what brought us the successful spell , after the Wolves / Villa bump / bloody nose (And tune and build on it including by recruitment in Jan) he quickly reintroduced FD which immeadiately IMHO changed a number of dynamics and in essence the way we played completely

The apparent lack of ability to adapt to make this change / transition from players and coaches was strange if I’m honest 

Then when that’s not working we morph into a side with two pretty immobile lumps upfront , without a wideman playing or obvious service , and promptly launch balls at them from our own third

Wtf is that about ? Seriously ?

We couldn’t be further away from our method of play in latter 2017 , or any cohesive plan if we tried  and our playing worse football than Bolton Cardiff or anyone else on here that some are quick to ridicule and criticise for style of play

Stunningly baffling

 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

While I agree in theory Dave, was the style in which we were playing sustainable? The amount of injuries would suggest not but we most certainly still don't have a viable alternative. Did other clubs work out how to stop us when playing that style? Is a bigger squad the answer to cover for fatigue / injuries? By increasing the squad size, I guess we would be sacrificing quality? It's a proper dilemma but the stark change in playing style, as you say, has been our undoing.

The injuries one is an interesting one, and I wonder whether it’s linked to pressing style or not.  I’m obviously not a physio, but those who played with me know I spent a lot of time injured 

Here’s my view of our injuries.

Djuric - long-term problem inherent when we signed him, unable to get the correct diagnosis because very complicated.  Not related to pressing / intensity

Pisano - horrific injury on comeback from hamstring strain.  He himself said the Champ was frantic.  Suggest that he needed to be rotated more in those early months as he adapted.  Linked to pressing / intensity

Taylor - persistent groin issue.  Suggest this might be related to the additional fitness and strength needed to step up to this level level.  Possibly linked to pressing / intensity

Diedhiou - knackered knee landing awkwardly.  Not linked to pressing / intensity 

O’Dowda - heavy challenge, fracturing ankle.  Not linked to pressing / intensity

Hegeler - hamstring injury at Leeds.  Like Pisano, shock at the pace of the Chsmp, but not over-used, so not a good reason.  Possibly linked pressing / intensity

O’Neil - age catching up with him, injuries become harder to come back from.  Not related to pressing / intensity

I’ve probably missed one or two.  I’m not convinced that injuries are overly caused by our pressing.

Has it knackered our players / caused them to lose their spark though?  Probably.

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The injuries one is an interesting one, and I wonder whether it’s linked to pressing style or not.  I’m obviously not a physio, but those who played with me know I spent a lot of time injured 

Here’s my view of our injuries.

Djuric - long-term problem inherent when we signed him, unable to get the correct diagnosis because very complicated.  Not related to pressing / intensity

Pisano - horrific injury on comeback from hamstring strain.  He himself said the Champ was frantic.  Suggest that he needed to be rotated more in those early months as he adapted.  Linked to pressing / intensity

Taylor - persistent groin issue.  Suggest this might be related to the additional fitness and strength needed to step up to this level level.  Possibly linked to pressing / intensity

Diedhiou - knackered knee landing awkwardly.  Not linked to pressing / intensity 

O’Dowda - heavy challenge, fracturing ankle.  Not linked to pressing / intensity

Hegeler - hamstring injury at Leeds.  Like Pisano, shock at the pace of the Chsmp, but not over-used, so not a good reason.  Possibly linked pressing / intensity

O’Neil - age catching up with him, injuries become harder to come back from.  Not related to pressing / intensity

I’ve probably missed one or two.  I’m not convinced that injuries are overly caused by our pressing.

Has it knackered our players / caused them to lose their spark though?  Probably.

 

Interesting post / analysis Dave

Tbf - Pisano did his knee slipping in a puddle at training ground and did his hamstring on way back from that which wasn’t a great shock 

What did strike me as I went down that list is.......

.............With the exception of COD , possibly Matt Taylor why would you recruit any of them if you intend to follow your busy bee / high press philosophy