So comfy in the concourse

[bengalcub]

Must admit the amount of dropped pints I've seen due to the lack of anywhere other than a bin top to put them is ridiculous I guess a wet floor would help to extinguish any fire , not so sure the club gibrs two hoots about the potential slip hazard of a wet floor though...

[AshtonPark]

1 hour ago, HIGHRIDGE BCFC said:

There are seats in parts of the East Stand lower concourse at Elland Road Leeds.

There's half a dozen or so of the fixed to the floor tables and chairs at either side of the concourse so it can be done.

Again, not a new build.

[RedRock]

2 minutes ago, bengalcub said:

Must admit the amount of dropped pints I've seen due to the lack of anywhere other than a bin top to put them is ridiculous I guess a wet floor would help to extinguish any fire , not so sure the club gibrs two hoots about the potential slip hazard of a wet floor though...

Yep. Somebody should accidentally slip over on the wet floor or trip over a mug. Complain to SAG and tell them the sale of drinks in a concourse is dangerous and to close down the operation. 

You wait and see how quickly the Club come up with a solution for placing your mugs on a shelf. The Club/SAG bullshit will evaporate in seconds I bet.

[T R]

Ok guys I've had an idea floating in my head all day. Not sure if it would work or not on match days. It could be run the same way as the season trust do with the members scheme but I need someone from the trust preferably @Dollymarie to do some research work for it first to see if it is feasable or not.

The idea is to use the dolman lounges pre match, half time and after the game as a seating area for senior citizens who find it difficult to stand for a long period. They have already got tables and chairs up there I believe which they use for conference parties on none match days. They could add in a small portable bar and tea and coffee which could bring in some revenue for the club of which is doesn't for now as it is not being used on match days. Also it could be used for rugby senior citizens aswell.

I don't know how often it is used on non match days, would be interesting to find out cause I have a plan B just in case but this would cost the club a bit of money to do.

[Dollymarie]

8 minutes ago, Threshing Red said:

Ok guys I've had an idea floating in my head all day. Not sure if it would work or not on match days. It could be run the same way as the season trust do with the members scheme but I need someone from the trust preferably @Dollymarie to do some research work for it first to see if it is feasable or not.

The idea is to use the dolman lounges pre match, half time and after the game as a seating area for senior citizens who find it difficult to stand for a long period. They have already got tables and chairs up there I believe which they use for conference parties on none match days. They could add in a small portable bar and tea and coffee which could bring in some revenue for the club of which is doesn't for now as it is not being used on match days. Also it could be used for rugby senior citizens aswell.

I don't know how often it is used on non match days, would be interesting to find out cause I have a plan B just in case but this would cost the club a bit of money to do.

The Dolman lounges all get used on a match day, by those having birthdays or being mascots, and I believe match officials/scouts. Maybe @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO can confirm what they’re in use for. 

[T R]

7 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

The Dolman lounges all get used on a match day, by those having birthdays or being mascots, and I believe match officials/scouts. Maybe @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO can confirm what they’re in use for. 

Thanks for the reply I've been in that corner for a while now and haven't seen it being used on match days but maybe I've missed them in there.

[Redtucks]

20 hours ago, Threshing Red said:

Another thing that gets on my goat is where they put the family area in upper lansdown.

Gets my goat or gets on my tits.

Not gets on my goat!

 

[Natchfever]

18 hours ago, Offside said:

My Dad has a similar problem to that described in the OP. He's not as old as 87, but as he's got older he's become less steady on his feet and also has a bad back and arthiritis. We always used to have a couple of pints in a pub before the game but he now finds it difficult to walk from there to the ground. On Sunday he couldn't stand up for too long in the concourse so we had to sit in our seats in he ground quite early. This I imagine will become more of a regular occurance. 

I have no idea about the legalities of having seating in the concourse, but if the club want to encourage fans to use the concourses this needs to be looked at. Common sense suggests to me that seats attached to the walls that spring up when not being used (like he pictures of he ones in Burton) could be an option - especially if they had signs like the seats on buses asking for people to leave them for the elderly or anyone else who has trouble standing.

Joining the SC&T to enable us to use that bar is one option. One question - how long before kick off do you need to get there to have any chance of getting a seat?

 

You just know some ***** would take up the available seats and refuse to give them up though. Having said that I think seats would be a decent idea if they flipped up and people needed them for a sustained period, but to be honest I arrived 10 minutes before KO and sat in my seat for 15 minutes at half time and I somehow survived. Club didn't make any money out of me though, so they should perhaps think about potential lost revenue opportunities.

[Rich]

10 hours ago, AshtonPark said:

Mark Kelly has said previously he is happy to meet to show people it all in regards to seating.

Maybe you or others should meet him, instead of everyone moaning on Internet forums all the time. 

Everyone saying it’s all down to making money etc, to put a stage up the ground would have to pass it via the council etc. Why doesn’t anyone go and meet him etc and discuss it properly like grown ups? Then you might finally work out it’s not the club but the council and start moaning to them. 

Then again, it’s easier to moan online about things then actually meet face to face isn’t it. 

If you consider highlighting an issue and discussing it with others moaning, then I suppose you are correct. I am planning to discuss this and put proposals for seating to the club, firstly there needs to be a debate to establish the need for these facilities. Apart from people coming up with ridiculous to spurious reasons why there shouldn't or couldn't be seating in the concourse, the debate is proving that, there is a demand for this facility and, is proving that it has been initiated at other grounds. I don't believe that giving ones opinion on why this is not being considered, is tantamount to moaning.

[wendyredredrobin]

Surprises me that so many people need to sink pints before a game, after a game and at half time.  Probably the same ones who moan that they can't afford a season ticket

I go to the concourse as soon as the HT whistle goes and find it unbelievable to see the number of fans already half way through their first pint

[Matt Parsons]

49 minutes ago, Dollymarie said:

The Dolman lounges all get used on a match day, by those having birthdays or being mascots, and I believe match officials/scouts. Maybe @Matt Parsons BCFCSLO can confirm what they’re in use for. 

Hello, yes that is correct. They are used for private parties, events, mascots and hosting different groups.

[AshtonPark]

15 minutes ago, Rich said:

If you consider highlighting an issue and discussing it with others moaning, then I suppose you are correct. I am planning to discuss this and put proposals for seating to the club, firstly there needs to be a debate to establish the need for these facilities. Apart from people coming up with ridiculous to spurious reasons why there shouldn't or couldn't be seating in the concourse, the debate is proving that, there is a demand for this facility and, is proving that it has been initiated at other grounds. I don't believe that giving ones opinion on why this is not being considered, is tantamount to moaning.

I fully understand that, but when people arnt listening to facts or when willing to meet Mark Kelly to the point people are saying he is lying what do you expect? 

[bengalcub]

I know the club are geared up for the next generation but come on city look after the present generation also it's not hard to assign a room or some flip up seats or some metal drop down shelves it's an issue for fans and the club lose money because of it  ... 

[...]

To put this entire thread into perspective: there are people starving in Africa.

[Rich]

17 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

I fully understand that, but when people arnt listening to facts or when willing to meet Mark Kelly to the point people are saying he is lying what do you expect? 

When you refer to people not listening to facts, or not willing to meet MK, or people saying he's lying, I hope you're not referring to me?

I am willing to meet MK when I have sufficient information, I will and only have mentioned facts, such as other stadium providing seating and, as for saying he's lying, that is untrue. He is an employee of the company, the current legislation regarding the stadium is based on the planning process applied for and passed. If there were no provision for seating in the concourse then obviously there is no permission for that seating and that is what he has stated. The question is, does the club have the will to provide that seating as a retrospective application? As it's obvious other clubs have, so any objections the safety group currently have and they're entitled to at present, will be negated by law.

[AshtonPark]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

When you refer to people not listening to facts, or not willing to meet MK, or people saying he's lying, I hope you're not referring to me?

I am willing to meet MK when I have sufficient information, I will and only have mentioned facts, such as other stadium providing seating and, as for saying he's lying, that is untrue. He is an employee of the company, the current legislation regarding the stadium is based on the planning process applied for and passed. If there were no provision for seating in the concourse then obviously there is no permission for that seating and that is what he has stated. The question is, does the club have the will to provide that seating as a retrospective application? As it's obvious other clubs have, so any objections the safety group currently have and they're entitled to at present, will be negated by law.

For you last point,

Where have any new builds, got retrospective planning for seats and chairs?

 

[T R]

Took this from a charity pdf document. This is one of their proposals. They don't have any legal powers to enforce clubs to do anything but I think it should be implemented.

'8. To assist  ambulant  disabled  supporters/people  visiting  the stadium  on  match  and  non  match  days,  rest  points  should be  made  available  wherever  possible.  This  should  include seating  in  the  ticket  office,  reception,  shop,  refreshment bars, etc. and clubs should consider seating areas along the entrance  route  to  the  stadium  (where  possible)  and  within concourse  areas.  Rest  points  such  as  fold  down  seating attached  to  concourse  walls  will  assist  ambulant  disabled people  who  might  otherwise  not  be  able  to  attend  the match.'

source: https://www.levelplayingfield.org.uk/sites/default/files/contentfiles/level_playing_field_helpsheet_for_ambulant_disabled_fans_contact_info_updated_june_2014_3.pdf

 

[pongo88]

12 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

The question of keeping the concourse clear of a few fold up seats to facilitate rapid evacuation of the stadium in the event of an emergency is, in practical terms, a nonsense.

Certainly as far as the concourse below the Dolman is concerned.

As anyone using the stand will know, it takes absolutely ages to get out after a game, so rapid egress, I would imagine, would be nigh on impossible. A few minor obstructions in the concourse would be the least of concerns.

Regarding exiting the stands in the event of an emergency, if there was a fire in a concourse, spectators could exit their stand via the pitch rather the concourse. As every gangway, with the exception of the upper Lansdown, leads directly onto the pitch Ashton Gate is a very safe place to be in the event of a fire.

Even those  in the upper  Lansdown could make their way to the lower section and then onto the pitch. They would have the most difficult exit route to take so are in the least safe part of the ground. As the club has placed the family section there, the risk assessment must have concluded that even the least safe part if fine for young children. 

[Frenchay Red]

21 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

Regarding exiting the stands in the event of an emergency, if there was a fire in a concourse, spectators could exit their stand via the pitch rather the concourse. As every gangway, with the exception of the upper Lansdown, leads directly onto the pitch Ashton Gate is a very safe place to be in the event of a fire.

Even those  in the upper  Lansdown could make their way to the lower section and then onto the pitch. They would have the most difficult exit route to take so are in the least safe part of the ground. As the club has placed the family section there, the risk assessment must have concluded that even the least safe part if fine for young children. 

I would imagine that if there was a fire in the Dolman concourse we would all have rather warm feet by the time we managed to get to the pitch.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I always thought depending where a fire was, the plan was to evacuate through the concourse?

I'm sure Mark Kelly has mentioned it on here before.

[Lrrr]

6 hours ago, bengalcub said:

Must admit the amount of dropped pints I've seen due to the lack of anywhere other than a bin top to put them is ridiculous I guess a wet floor would help to extinguish any fire , not so sure the club gibrs two hoots about the potential slip hazard of a wet floor though...

Really? I mean given what pint glasses are usually filled with...

[Rich]

3 hours ago, AshtonPark said:

For you last point,

Where have any new builds, got retrospective planning for seats and chairs?

 

I referred to other clubs providing seating, not retrospectively, though I understand how that statement could be misunderstood.

[Rich]

2 hours ago, Threshing Red said:

Took this from a charity pdf document. This is one of their proposals. They don't have any legal powers to enforce clubs to do anything but I think it should be implemented.

'8. To assist  ambulant  disabled  supporters/people  visiting  the stadium  on  match  and  non  match  days,  rest  points  should be  made  available  wherever  possible.  This  should  include seating  in  the  ticket  office,  reception,  shop,  refreshment bars, etc. and clubs should consider seating areas along the entrance  route  to  the  stadium  (where  possible)  and  within concourse  areas.  Rest  points  such  as  fold  down  seating attached  to  concourse  walls  will  assist  ambulant  disabled people  who  might  otherwise  not  be  able  to  attend  the match.'

source: https://www.levelplayingfield.org.uk/sites/default/files/contentfiles/level_playing_field_helpsheet_for_ambulant_disabled_fans_contact_info_updated_june_2014_3.pdf

 

That sets out exactly what is required, thanks for posting.

[Rich]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I always thought depending where a fire was, the plan was to evacuate through the concourse?

I'm sure Mark Kelly has mentioned it on here before.

Yes, obviously the first point of exit would be through the concourse, we wouldn't want thousands of spectators exiting onto the pitch for what might be a false alarm.

[hantsred]

I used to carry out fire risk assessments albeit for accommodation blocks of flats but I think some comments are missing the point of concourses. The concourse is part of the protected escape route  for the stand (at least for the lower section) and as such has special requirements. For a start a designated escape route is protected by having fire protective shell, doors, sprinklers, emergency lighting, exit signage etc . If you see all or most of these items then you can be pretty sure you are in an escape route. Escape routes must be kept clear of obstacles and combustibles - obstacles because you could have smoke filled routes/low visibility and combustibles clearly have to be eradicated as there should be at least 30-60 min protection within the escape routes to allow adequate evacuation of what could be a very large amount of people (11,000!). The fact the concourse is a used facility for eating and drinking before the game is already complicated (and compromised) in its use, and for it to be then extended with furniture etc would add to the risk profile for the above reasons and could push the risk assessment into a high risk category which then could be prohibitively expensive to mitigate.

Some others have mentioned why not just evacuate onto the pitch but i would imagine the risk assessment rules out this option as it is uncontrolled route and not a full evacuation of the 'venue' - just the stand. I.e. your route will be extended across the pitch (possible smoke filled area with no lighting, signage etc) and then through another stand which may or may not be already alight. i.e. imagine the fire alarms go of in an evening game, all non emergency lights fail including the floodlights, you evacuate the west stand across the dark pitch and through the Dolman only to find that the Dolman is the stand on fire and you have several thousand uncontrolled spectators heading for it!

It may seem a lot conjecture and worst case but that is what the risk assessment would have to consider - just look at Grenfell Tower for when procedures lapse and short cuts are taken.

Read it for yourself -  attached guidance which is specifically for large stadia risk assesments.. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/14889/fsra-large-assembly.pdf

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 hours ago, hantsred said:

I used to carry out fire risk assessments albeit for accommodation blocks of flats but I think some comments are missing the point of concourses. The concourse is part of the protected escape route  for the stand (at least for the lower section) and as such has special requirements. For a start a designated escape route is protected by having fire protective shell, doors, sprinklers, emergency lighting, exit signage etc . If you see all or most of these items then you can be pretty sure you are in an escape route. Escape routes must be kept clear of obstacles and combustibles - obstacles because you could have smoke filled routes/low visibility and combustibles clearly have to be eradicated as there should be at least 30-60 min protection within the escape routes to allow adequate evacuation of what could be a very large amount of people (11,000!). The fact the concourse is a used facility for eating and drinking before the game is already complicated (and compromised) in its use, and for it to be then extended with furniture etc would add to the risk profile for the above reasons and could push the risk assessment into a high risk category which then could be prohibitively expensive to mitigate.

Some others have mentioned why not just evacuate onto the pitch but i would imagine the risk assessment rules out this option as it is uncontrolled route and not a full evacuation of the 'venue' - just the stand. I.e. your route will be extended across the pitch (possible smoke filled area with no lighting, signage etc) and then through another stand which may or may not be already alight. i.e. imagine the fire alarms go of in an evening game, all non emergency lights fail including the floodlights, you evacuate the west stand across the dark pitch and through the Dolman only to find that the Dolman is the stand on fire and you have several thousand uncontrolled spectators heading for it!

It may seem a lot conjecture and worst case but that is what the risk assessment would have to consider - just look at Grenfell Tower for when procedures lapse and short cuts are taken.

Read it for yourself -  attached guidance which is specifically for large stadia risk assesments.. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/14889/fsra-large-assembly.pdf

Thank you- this is what I've been trying to get at, but you have put it much better and more detailed than me. Worst case scenario means it is a potential risk factor- one more thing could be deemed to be one more risk too many. 

One question though, do the concourses i.e. Dolman have sprinklers? In certain areas maybe, but in general main areas? Wasn't aware they did.

One other thing though, surely the pitch evacuation would be to stay on the pitch for the duration of the fire or until such as time as the fire is contained/extinguished? As opposed to on the pitch and out another stand- depending on fire spread etc of course.

[Bristol Rob]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

One question though, do the concourses i.e. Dolman have sprinklers? In certain areas maybe, but in general main areas? Wasn't aware they did.

 

If they do, I hope they are championship ready.

[hantsred]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thank you- this is what I've been trying to get at, but you have put it much better and more detailed than me. Worst case scenario means it is a potential risk factor- one more thing could be deemed to be one more risk too many. 

One question though, do the concourses i.e. Dolman have sprinklers? In certain areas maybe, but in general main areas? Wasn't aware they did.

One other thing though, surely the pitch evacuation would be to stay on the pitch for the duration of the fire or until such as time as the fire is contained/extinguished? As opposed to on the pitch and out another stand- depending on fire spread etc of course.

Pretty sure I have seen sprinklers but the Dolman may not have to have them as it may not have to conform to buidling regs being a refit.

Cant say for sure on the pitch option - but assuming the entire stadium is considered the building (i.e. not just one stand) as could be argued with the continuous concourse and connected facilities etc, then evacuation would need to be from the stadium. In this case the pitch would not be seen as adequate refuge area and as stated an unmarked route (no signs, emergency lighting etc.

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, hantsred said:

Pretty sure I have seen sprinklers but the Dolman may not have to have them as it may not have to conform to buidling regs being a refit.

Cant say for sure on the pitch option - but assuming the entire stadium is considered the building (i.e. not just one stand) as could be argued with the continuous concourse and connected facilities etc, then evacuation would need to be from the stadium. In this case the pitch would not be seen as adequate refuge area and as stated an unmarked route (no signs, emergency lighting etc.

Ah, the concourses do have sprinklers then? Always assumed they were restricted to certain areas where a fire may start, e.g. areas of rubbish storage or maybe catering outlets even.

Yeah it could, that's a good point- those 3 stands joined up in one concourse (the Atyeo the obvious exception?). I was always assuming that as for example at the Bradford fire, you evacuate onto the pitch...then you stay there for some while. As opposed to using it as a means of escape out of the ground. Was only one non joined up stand though.

That said, I'm unsure what could set on fire in a concrete and steel ground, with no smoking- no chips even- and a sterile concourse!

[Cowshed]

13 hours ago, hantsred said:

I used to carry out fire risk assessments albeit for accommodation blocks of flats but I think some comments are missing the point of concourses. The concourse is part of the protected escape route  for the stand (at least for the lower section) and as such has special requirements. For a start a designated escape route is protected by having fire protective shell, doors, sprinklers, emergency lighting, exit signage etc . If you see all or most of these items then you can be pretty sure you are in an escape route. Escape routes must be kept clear of obstacles and combustibles - obstacles because you could have smoke filled routes/low visibility and combustibles clearly have to be eradicated as there should be at least 30-60 min protection within the escape routes to allow adequate evacuation of what could be a very large amount of people (11,000!). The fact the concourse is a used facility for eating and drinking before the game is already complicated (and compromised) in its use, and for it to be then extended with furniture etc would add to the risk profile for the above reasons and could push the risk assessment into a high risk category which then could be prohibitively expensive to mitigate.

Some others have mentioned why not just evacuate onto the pitch but i would imagine the risk assessment rules out this option as it is uncontrolled route and not a full evacuation of the 'venue' - just the stand. I.e. your route will be extended across the pitch (possible smoke filled area with no lighting, signage etc) and then through another stand which may or may not be already alight. i.e. imagine the fire alarms go of in an evening game, all non emergency lights fail including the floodlights, you evacuate the west stand across the dark pitch and through the Dolman only to find that the Dolman is the stand on fire and you have several thousand uncontrolled spectators heading for it!

It may seem a lot conjecture and worst case but that is what the risk assessment would have to consider - just look at Grenfell Tower for when procedures lapse and short cuts are taken.

Read it for yourself -  attached guidance which is specifically for large stadia risk assesments.. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/14889/fsra-large-assembly.pdf

Ditto … In my case disabled services.

In this case Bristol Sport can include seating where appropriate e.g. individuals with mobility issues. The quoted levelplayingfield cannot advise anything that is against the law, and they have not.

What levelplayingfield advise is best practice.

Adding a small amount of seating to this concourse to help support supporters would represent negligible risk, and would not compromise control measures for evacuation. This seating would reduce risk, improve health and safety .. Unless people think its a advantage for those with mobility issues to be put at a greater risk because there is nowhere for them to sit in a crowded area. The risk I have identified there is far more likely to occur that the one you are implying would.