Admin phantom Posted September 5, 2018 Admin Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Yeah it could, that's a good point- those 3 stands joined up in one concourse (the Atyeo the obvious exception?). I was always assuming that as for example at the Bradford fire, you evacuate onto the pitch...then you stay there for some while. Obviously those at the front would instinctively go that way, but part of the problem at Bradford was there was no other way out of the stand due to doors / exits being locked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 If I got the right person, I think there is an opportunity for @Blagdon red to use his safe standing seats as drop down seat in the concourse. I'm just talking about using the seats along the wall of the concourse without the bars etc. The opposition of safe standing use the argument that they aren't proper seats. So this could help his campaign to get safe standing because if people started to use them as seats in the concourse then the authorities would have to class them as official seats. There are 2 side walls I have noticed that could be used for this purpose without causing any hazards or obstructions. 1 in the dolman and 1 in the south stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 4 hours ago, phantom said: Obviously those at the front would instinctively go that way, but part of the problem at Bradford was there was no other way out of the stand due to doors / exits being locked Yeah, Bradford had for a myriad of reasons, plenty of contributory factors which would not be there today. Maybe it's just me, but can't help but feel- and it's instinct rather than evidence based- that in an environment with fire and hot smoke, evacuating downwards into a concourse, an enclosed space at that, may not be an amazing idea- but modern tech etc...plus guidance/stipulations of course! @RedLionLad I think not all doors were locked, some were, plus turnstiles too- but part of it was as you say the sheer speed of the fire, the design of the stand- not just the timber construction but the bitumen/tar in the roof plus the mountains of uncleared rubbish, lack of fire extinguishers... Also factored in is the fact that fire exits were of the pushbar variety- but the denseness of the smoke in the concourse meant that people couldn't see them/make them out properly with disastrous results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLionLad Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 4 hours ago, phantom said: Obviously those at the front would instinctively go that way, but part of the problem at Bradford was there was no other way out of the stand due to doors / exits being locked With the stand at Valley Parade being built of mostly timber, I think even with the escape routes clear/unlocked, many would have been severely burned or killed regardless. The fire was so rapid and intense. Even when some fans got onto the pitch, the sheer heat was igniting people's hair and melting their clothing. Hopefully, we'll never see anything like that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Some good posts referring to means of exit and catering for those ambulant disabled. Based on all information so far, it would appear that there is scope for seating on the perimeter of the concourse, which meets regs, is not a fire hazard in itself, does not hinder the means of escape, is recommended by the access to stadia guide, is best practice in the level playing field guide and, more importantly, has been carried out in other stadiums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonPark Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Rich said: Some good posts referring to means of exit and catering for those ambulant disabled. Based on all information so far, it would appear that there is scope for seating on the perimeter of the concourse, which meets regs, is not a fire hazard in itself, does not hinder the means of escape, is recommended by the access to stadia guide, is best practice in the level playing field guide and, more importantly, has been carried out in other stadiums. Where has it been carried out in new build stadiums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, AshtonPark said: Where has it been carried out in new build stadiums? Liverpool. https://www.kssgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Anfield_Stadium_Concourses_4-1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 15 minutes ago, AshtonPark said: Where has it been carried out in new build stadiums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonPark Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Spurs isn’t a real photo, is Liverpool a rebuild? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 57 minutes ago, AshtonPark said: Spurs isn’t a real photo, is Liverpool a rebuild? Spurs is an image of what they are providing, Liverpool is a new stand. So, Spurs is a new build stadium which answers that side of the debate , evidently it's also at Wembley, (a new build), and Liverpool's is a new stand/re build of an existing part of a stadium, so that covers that side of things and Burton have seating in an older existing stadium. So, it would appear that seating can be provided in new stadia and revamped stadia, as long as it meets the regs, and there is a will to provide that facility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 On 04/09/2018 at 06:31, AshtonPark said: Mark Kelly has said previously he is happy to meet to show people it all in regards to seating. Maybe you or others should meet him, instead of everyone moaning on Internet forums all the time. Everyone saying it’s all down to making money etc, to put a stage up the ground would have to pass it via the council etc. Why doesn’t anyone go and meet him etc and discuss it properly like grown ups? Then you might finally work out it’s not the club but the council and start moaning to them. Then again, it’s easier to moan online about things then actually meet face to face isn’t it. Think about what you've said here. The council/SAGs would have had to approve the temporary construction of a stage within the concourse and it's reduction of capacity and free movement, agreed. So, did the council/SAGs ask the club if they wanted to put up a stage, or, did the club ask for permission from the council, because they wanted to provide a facility for supporters use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonPark Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 8 hours ago, Rich said: Think about what you've said here. The council/SAGs would have had to approve the temporary construction of a stage within the concourse and it's reduction of capacity and free movement, agreed. So, did the council/SAGs ask the club if they wanted to put up a stage, or, did the club ask for permission from the council, because they wanted to provide a facility for supporters use? The club have it written that they cannot use seating, hence mark Kelly’s willingness to meet anyone to explain it. At a guess, Liverpool isn’t a walk way, there is stairs either side so people wouldn’t be using that as an exit, The same with spurs. The problem with burton etc, they could have the tables and chairs and when it was build it building regs or councils spec at the time it wasn’t an issue. Its like building a house now, you need to meet current building regs. Take an extension for example, you need to build to current regs even if the rest of your house isn’t. You might go “why do I need this steel beam this thick, the rest of the house hasn’t got this” I still think you need to meet Mark, explain your findings let him explain it from the clubs angle. That way everyone will understand it all a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted September 6, 2018 Admin Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 12 hours ago, Rich said: Liverpool. https://www.kssgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Anfield_Stadium_Concourses_4-1.jpg This isn't a great example it is an area away from an exit We are talking about seats between seating and a fire exit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 11 hours ago, AshtonPark said: The club have it written that they cannot use seating, hence mark Kelly’s willingness to meet anyone to explain it. At a guess, Liverpool isn’t a walk way, there is stairs either side so people wouldn’t be using that as an exit, The same with spurs. The problem with burton etc, they could have the tables and chairs and when it was build it building regs or councils spec at the time it wasn’t an issue. Its like building a house now, you need to meet current building regs. Take an extension for example, you need to build to current regs even if the rest of your house isn’t. You might go “why do I need this steel beam this thick, the rest of the house hasn’t got this” I still think you need to meet Mark, explain your findings let him explain it from the clubs angle. That way everyone will understand it all a lot better. Thanks for the lesson on planning and building regs. I have been in the construction industry since 1971 and my first of many planning and building applications was in 1982. So, I am well aware of the situation about following current building regulations. If you notice I refer to "the regs" on numerous occasions in this thread. As for the club having it written that no seating was allowed, why did Mark Kelly state that the club were considering some seating for this season? With all due respect, I don't think you are quite understanding of what I'm saying so, I'll try and explain further. The club did not have specific permission to install a temporary stage in their planning approval documents. So, they would have had to get that permission from the relevant authorities/SAGs. They had to have the will to request that for that occasion. Why guess? The Liverpool seating section is terraced in a zoned off area and the steps are there to access the rear seats. There are entrances into the ground either side of the walk ways on each side of that seating and a thoroughfare in front of it. This type of arrangement could easily be introduced into the rear of the concourse of the Dolman stand and, would not have any physical impact what so ever on the entrances or exits to the ground seating and no effect on the walkway through the concourse. Incidentally, that walkway through the concourse has obstacles such as bins, and queue gangway posts in front of the bars. there are also TV screens through the centre thoroughfare causing congestion, whereas the rear wall/perimeter of this concourse is just a gathering point and recessed away from that main thoroughfare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonPark Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Rich said: Thanks for the lesson on planning and building regs. I have been in the construction industry since 1971 and my first of many planning and building applications was in 1982. So, I am well aware of the situation about following current building regulations. If you notice I refer to "the regs" on numerous occasions in this thread. As for the club having it written that no seating was allowed, why did Mark Kelly state that the club were considering some seating for this season? With all due respect, I don't think you are quite understanding of what I'm saying so, I'll try and explain further. The club did not have specific permission to install a temporary stage in their planning approval documents. So, they would have had to get that permission from the relevant authorities/SAGs. They had to have the will to request that for that occasion. Why guess? The Liverpool seating section is terraced in a zoned off area and the steps are there to access the rear seats. There are entrances into the ground either side of the walk ways on each side of that seating and a thoroughfare in front of it. This type of arrangement could easily be introduced into the rear of the concourse of the Dolman stand and, would not have any physical impact what so ever on the entrances or exits to the ground seating and no effect on the walkway through the concourse. Incidentally, that walkway through the concourse has obstacles such as bins, and queue gangway posts in front of the bars. there are also TV screens through the centre thoroughfare causing congestion, whereas the rear wall/perimeter of this concourse is just a gathering point and recessed away from that main thoroughfare. Why guess. Exactly, email mark Kelly, ring him, he’s a nice chap. Meet him, explain your findings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 11 hours ago, phantom said: This isn't a great example it is an area away from an exit We are talking about seats between seating and a fire exit Actually, that image shows that the seating area is between two entrances/exits to the stadium seating, with gangways either side and the main concourse in front of it. I'm not proposing putting seats in the main concourse thoroughfare or next to the exits from the ground. I refer to areas along one rear wall of the Dolman stand where seating would be in recessed areas, and when not in use, would not protrude any further than the existing concrete columns, and when in use, not any further than the persons legs sitting there, which is not as much as the people that sit on the concrete floor now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 3 minutes ago, AshtonPark said: Why guess. Exactly, email mark Kelly, ring him, he’s a nice chap. Meet him, explain your findings. Thanks. When I have sufficient time and the information required, which is increasing as a result of this debate, I will make a representation to the club. I think it's important that we try to include as many people as possible and give them the benefit of using those facilities which we currently enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted September 7, 2018 Admin Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 12 hours ago, Rich said: Actually, that image shows that the seating area is between two entrances/exits to the stadium seating, with gangways either side and the main concourse in front of it. I'm not proposing putting seats in the main concourse thoroughfare or next to the exits from the ground. I refer to areas along one rear wall of the Dolman stand where seating would be in recessed areas, and when not in use, would not protrude any further than the existing concrete columns, and when in use, not any further than the persons legs sitting there, which is not as much as the people that sit on the concrete floor now. But it is only an image not an actual picture - any idea if it was actually built this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 On 07/09/2018 at 09:55, phantom said: But it is only an image not an actual picture - any idea if it was actually built this way? Sorry for late reply, been away and no data. This isn't the image I posted. As for if they've actually built it the way it was proposed and depicted, while it was under construction, I don't know, I'll try to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 Phantom, hope this helps. There are also images of tables and shelves in various other images. https://www.theguardian.com/football/gallery/2016/sep/09/anfields-new-main-stand-in-pictures#img-22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Rich said: Phantom, hope this helps. There are also images of tables and shelves in various other images. https://www.theguardian.com/football/gallery/2016/sep/09/anfields-new-main-stand-in-pictures#img-22 In the link, it states, a few of the "WOODEN" seats from the original stand are in the concourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Rich said: Phantom, hope this helps. There are also images of tables and shelves in various other images. https://www.theguardian.com/football/gallery/2016/sep/09/anfields-new-main-stand-in-pictures#img-22 It's nice to see a bit of red around the stadium and the club badge meanwhile bristol city... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 Hi @Rich I think I have found the evidence we need. Derby county have drop down seats one side and shelves on the other in their concourse. I think the seats are made from plastic as well by the looks of it. This shows it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Threshing Red said: Hi @Rich I think I have found the evidence we need. Derby county have drop down seats one side and shelves on the other in their concourse. I think the seats are made from plastic as well by the looks of it. This shows it can be done. And in a concourse considerably narrower than any at Ashton Gate. I think the evidence is out there to prove that seating in a concourse does meet regulations. Whether that is enough to prove demand, is another thing. If the demand is there and, the club can see that it would help users and ultimately increase turnover, then there'd be a reasonably strong case for installing some seating, and some shelves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 On 03/09/2018 at 14:56, Bar BS3 said: How many football stadiums can you name, that have seating in the concourse areas..? Burton Albion.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 On 03/09/2018 at 14:56, Bar BS3 said: How many football stadiums can you name, that have seating in the concourse areas..? Derby County... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalcub Posted September 10, 2018 Report Share Posted September 10, 2018 If you sell drinks , supply somewhere to put it, a metal shelf is fine Absolute joke that people have to rest their pints on some bins ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 14 hours ago, Threshing Red said: It's nice to see a bit of red around the stadium and the club badge meanwhile bristol city... You are aware that we aren’t the only team that play at Ashton gate, yeah..? Unlike Liverpool. You may also have noticed that the outside of Ashton Gate does indeed display many flags with badges on, the stadium is lit up in Red lighting when we are playing and the seating is all Red. 10 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Derby County... That’s not a very long list..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted September 11, 2018 Admin Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 18 hours ago, Rich said: Phantom, hope this helps. There are also images of tables and shelves in various other images. https://www.theguardian.com/football/gallery/2016/sep/09/anfields-new-main-stand-in-pictures#img-22 Some great photos in there, thanks for posting @Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted September 11, 2018 Report Share Posted September 11, 2018 11 hours ago, bengalcub said: If you sell drinks , supply somewhere to put it, a metal shelf is fine Absolute joke that people have to rest their pints on some bins ..... Unconvinced by seats for various reasons outlined by people on this thread- however quite agree that shelves would/should be feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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