Predictable otib.......

[Guest]

2 of the latest teams to pass us by currently sit 11th and 15th (Cardiff and Wolves) in the prem; if someone could tell me how many young guns they have brought through with there sustainable buy them young, train them up plan, that would be interesting? or have they brought proven talent and exp and gone for it with proven managers maybe?

Pay for the best if we want to play with the best would be my plan.   

[spudski]

10 hours ago, RumRed said:

Obviously was on the same coaching course as LJ.  Sounds great, but very contradictory.

Some people just aren't able to read properly, and understand my posts...they read things that aren't there. They pick up on a word and not the whole paragraph or sentiment.

Some get it...some don't.

If they contradicted...others wouldn't understand what I'm trying to get across.

Don't mind people disagreeing...it's when people can't understand and get sentiments wrong.

Anyway....match day tomorrow...can't wait.

Enjoy the footy.

COYR's

[bcfc01]

On 29/11/2018 at 11:35, Moments of Pleasure said:

Like the owner, SL, for one?

You are aware, I take it (I have been toiling away at this now for weeks) that Steve said in May that he wants to see us "get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season."

The whole Lansdown/Bristol Sport/refurbed AG thing is about getting its teams to the top and for us that means the PL, and SL made plain his expectations over the summer for this season, and as of today there is some distance between that expectation and the reality of where we are now.

So, this "entitlement" and the expectations you speak of do not come out of thin air, it starts at the very top. SL has always brought high expectations with him, ever more so since the developments of the last few years, and also from the public pronouncements made by the club's top brass.

SL is not involved with Bristol City to bob around 14th in the second tier, having splashed £100m plus on us. He has higher hopes than that. And so the team and coach are judged against these raised hopes and expectations.

Furthermore, SL isn't getting any younger; I'd imagine he would like to be around for the Glorious Day everything comes right, unlike poor Harry Dolman. Although Steve has more patience and different time-scales than most, he has made it clear that he wants to see signs of progress.

How hard is all this to grasp? It's almost as though some are deliberately, willfully, ignoring that the high expectations start with the man at the top. Why would they want to do this?

I would think there is an element of "well, he would say that wouldn't he."  He's been saying similar for years.

We wouldn't expect him to say consolidation is fine or as long as we avoid relegation thats ok.

I do think there is an element of overly high expectations amongst some supporters and also an element of over reacting to individual results. Same as every other support base in the country. This club is no different in that respect.

Maybe if some looked at the squads of other clubs and the finance available to them rather than take their guide from an owner who is just saying what he thinks the support base wants to hear, they might just lower their expectations.

IMO we are at least 3 or 4 players short of making a realistic claim for a top six spot - and we lost 3 of them at the beginning of the season.

 

[Three Lions]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Some people just aren't able to read properly, and understand my posts...they read things that aren't there. They pick up on a word and not the whole paragraph or sentiment.

Some get it...some don't.

If they contradicted...others wouldn't understand what I'm trying to get across.

 

Think you will find some agreed with you don't now after you told them they were agreeing with you for the wrong reasons and there was Robbored.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Three Lions said:

Think you will find some agreed with you don't now after you told them they were agreeing with you for the wrong reasons and there was Robbored.

I read Spudki’s post twice but still had to check that I understood his points correctly.....so as I had to double check it’s no surprise that others  didn’t fully grasp it either. 

However rather than ask for clarification they misconstrued it and became critical - typicl otib reaction........

[Davefevs]

....and some people read it, understood it, and disagreed with it, explaining why. 

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

....and some people read it, understood it, and disagreed with it, explaining why. 

Nothing wrong with that Dave...have no problem with at all.

I disagree with how you've described our way of playing direct and why players like Duric and Mags were sold...I also disagree with someone else saying we aren't playing with width.

All good though...I don't mind debate when it's understood and reasoned. Happy to disagree this time though.

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

Nothing wrong with that Dave...have no problem with at all.

I disagree with how you've described our way of playing direct and why players like Duric and Mags were sold...I also disagree with someone else saying we aren't playing with width.

All good though...I don't mind debate when it's understood and reasoned. Happy to disagree this time though.

I know you have no problem.  You’ll have a discussion with anyone, and we don’t always have to agree, we do on quite a bit though normally.

Its insistence of others (not always RR either!) that if you disagree you haven’t understood it.

Like good debate on here.  Boring otherwise.  I don’t post much during international breaks for example.  I never read or post on the Rovers post either

All good fella (that’s a quote from you!).

[Three Lions]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

I read Spudki’s post twice but still had to check that I understood his points correctly.....so as I had to double check it’s no surprise that others  didn’t fully grasp it either. 

However rather than ask for clarification they misconstrued it and became critical - typicl otib reaction........

 

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

....and some people read it, understood it, and disagreed with it, explaining why. 

Then he  got the hump again. Recently he has become very critical of Mark Ashton. He has also said LJ is losing it regarding putting crosses box then slags fans off for their observations.

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

 

Then he  got the hump again. Recently he has become very critical of Mark Ashton. He has also said LJ is losing it regarding putting crosses box then slags fans off for their observations.

What on earth are you on about?...............

[Three Lions]

15 minutes ago, Robbored said:

What on earth are you on about?............…

That the poster has form. He can be critical of LJ and MA and frequently is but that is ok. When others criticise they are negative and he is likely to go right off on one with fans who do not agree with him. 

[Cowshed]

No point getting the ball to Elliason Bob when there is no one there to cross to.

Our whole game has gone to pot in recent weeks.

When we defend...we defend as we should...it's defined. The lines...players on string movement etc.

When we attack...it's a complete joke.

If we attack down the left...you've got Kelly and Elliason stuck to the touch line. Famara high on his own. Whilst Weimann and Pisano are sat opposite the other touch line...they may as well be sat in the stand...absolutely pointless being the other side of the pitch...you've got to move inside and make yourselves available.

The same can be said of the central midfield...both Pato and Brownhill didn't attack or support the 18 yard box enough. Both sat too deep when offensive.

Pack might as well of been playing as an old fashioned sweeper he was that deep and ineffective.

I've never seen a team go on the offensive using the whole width of the pitch like we do...it's like playing with 9 men when you've got two stuck to the opposite touch line.

I've supported LJ as much as one man can...and still feel he has his hands tied in many ways...but todays tactics were bloody awful.

We are playing so wide and expansive, trying to cross...basically to thin air.

Give me as much dogs abuse as you like...but hands up now...that was pathetic today...absolute no nous whatsoever tactically.

Shameful.

 

Your post today Spudski. 

 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

 

On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:41, spudski said:

C'mon Dave you're better than that

He's a young coach...far from perfect, and he's learning everyday. But he's trying to do the right thing. He's doing as he's being asked.

If people don't like it, they should have more of a gripe at SL rather than the coach...

The Club are trying to do it properly.

If LJ was such a bad coach...Prem Clubs wouldn't send their players here, and other Managers wouldn't praise him.

He isn't getting the results everyone wants, and we are obviously in transition again, in the way we play. Fans don't like it...because LJ came out and said he needed so many windows, and SL said he wants promotion.

The expectations have been quoted, and everyone is up in arms because it isn't happening.

Football isn't like that...every club makes plans...99% of them go pear shape.

It's an organic process.

The vitriol on here is ridiculous...it's like a snowball picking up as many negative things about the club as possible.

It is ironic how busy this forum becomes when results and performances have been poor...when going well, it's almost redundant.

A massive element wallow in negativity and actually enjoy finding fault with the club and nit picking...can't actually believe some support this Club.

They are trying to do the right thing...we sit mid table...and have progressed each season since being up.

So many other bigger teams struggling to do better.

I just don't get it sometimes.

If he were doing it for himself and going against everything the Club want...I'd get it...but he isn't.

He just isnt doing what certain fans want on the pitch.

Every fan could write the same about their Club.

Lists of how much we've spent, who we bought, who we've sold...how much money was wasted, why are we playing this way, what's wrong with the owner, all the mistakes they've made, wrong subs, wrong team selection, blah, blah, blah...it's absolutely pointless.

So many keyboard warriors that think they know how to do it better.

If that was the case...every Club would be getting it right.

Not directed at you...but this forum has become ridiculous lately.

It's just so many negative people egging one another on.

Gonna give it a break for a while...and cheer on the lads on Sunday.

I hope they stick it up em...COYR's.

One game later and a 1-1 draw you negatively describe as pathetic and the tactics as bloody awful do you still think no other coach could do better than LJ?

[spudski]

9 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

 

One game later and a 1-1 draw you negatively describe as pathetic and the tactics as bloody awful do you still think no other coach could do better than LJ?

Over a whole season...right now with who we have available in the squad and fit....no.

January window will be massive in how our season finishes imo.

Yesterday was really poor tactically imo... 

As for whether a coach could do better with how SL wants to run it...I have my doubts. I could see someone coming in, agreeing with it for a season, then getting frustrated and wanting to change it.

This is how I think LJ is starting to feel and realising it's going to be harder to be anything more than a mid table side. Add the pressure from SL and the fans to do better...it all adds up.

[Bristol Oil Services]

On 01/12/2018 at 12:08, bcfc01 said:

I would think there is an element of "well, he would say that wouldn't he."  He's been saying similar for years.

We wouldn't expect him to say consolidation is fine or as long as we avoid relegation thats ok.

 

 

OK, so are you saying that SL is disingenuous or even dishonest, in his public comments, and stringing supporters along? 

[Sturny]

46 minutes ago, spudski said:

Over a whole season...right now with who we have available in the squad and fit....no.

January window will be massive in how our season finishes imo.

Yesterday was really poor tactically imo... 

As for whether a coach could do better with how SL wants to run it...I have my doubts. I could see someone coming in, agreeing with it for a season, then getting frustrated and wanting to change it.

This is how I think LJ is starting to feel and realising it's going to be harder to be anything more than a mid table side. Add the pressure from SL and the fans to do better...it all adds up.

I'd love to be able to bury my head that far into the sand, but I just can't. 

And you're right January will be massive, but we can only predict what'll happen in January compared to our other windows. Very meh imo. A few more meh windows and we're talking slipping further down the table.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

I'd love to be able to bury my head that far into the sand, but I just can't. 

And you're right January will be massive, but we can only predict what'll happen in January compared to our other windows. Very meh imo. A few more meh windows and we're talking slipping further down the table.

Whoever comes in, will still be asked to run the club the same way as LJ.

So buying in young hungry players to develop, a pathway from the Academy, a smattering of average Championship players and some from the lower leagues...plus some Prem loans.

They will have the same remit unless SL changes his structure.

You can argue that someone would recruit, coach and develop better in that remit.

Personally I think a share of certain fans displeasure should be aimed equally between SLs, LJs and MAs door...not purely at LJ.

[Sturny]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

Whoever comes in, will still be asked to run the club the same way as LJ.

So buying in young hungry players to develop, a pathway from the Academy, a smattering of average Championship players and some from the lower leagues...plus some Prem loans.

They will have the same remit unless SL changes his structure.

You can argue that someone would recruit better in that remit.

Personally I think a share of certain fans displeasure should be aimed equally between SLs, LJs and MAs door...not purely at LJ.

That would be the likely case. You could argue someone else could train/coach these hungry youngsters better. I don't believe we're getting the best out of our starting 11 every game. 

Unless you think LJ is the top viable option we could achieve and anyone else willing to be the manager would be a downgrade? 

[spudski]

36 minutes ago, Sturny said:

That would be the likely case. You could argue someone else could train/coach these hungry youngsters better. I don't believe we're getting the best out of our starting 11 every game. 

Unless you think LJ is the top viable option we could achieve and anyone else willing to be the manager would be a downgrade? 

I think what is being asked is long term...and LJ has agreed to it.

Not many managers think long term.

They may agree at the start...but to keep going when the going gets tough as it is now...then that's a different matter.

You can actually hear and see the frustration in some of the comments LJ makes at the moment.

When LJ speaks of finishing the project recently...I think that is telling.

The 'project' should be ongoing...but he's now speaking of finishing it.

Perhaps that's getting all the infrastructure in place, so someone else can come in seamlessly and continue in the same vein without massive disruption.

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I think what is being asked is long term...and LJ has agreed to it.

 

In May this year SL said that he wanted to see us this season: "get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season."

So, either 12 months is "long term," Steve was kidding us on, or you are wide of the mark on this one.

1 hour ago, spudski said:

 

When LJ speaks of finishing the project recently...I think that is telling.

The 'project' should be ongoing...but he's now speaking of finishing it.

 

This I understood as a reference to his time at Barnsley where he left halfway through the season, and so missed out on having at least one promotion to his name (something tangible with which to counter barbs from the likes of Warnock). He wants to start a season and see a team through to promotion, and to do that here (but his best chance of that might be to see us relegated first).

[bcfcnick]

City can play exceptionally well - as they did against Stoke - so it raises the question why doesn't LJ replicate the tactics that worked so well then.  Accepted that City lost but, if the performance could be repeated,  it's nothing that couldn't be resolved by getting someone who can put the pull in the back of the net.

So it raises the question of whether it's the players who don't have the ability to put out those type of performances consistently or whether it's a management /coaching issue about setting them up in a way that allows them to repeat 

So there are two possible factors in play here.  Either we really do have the players who can play well when set up properly and the right mix is chosen - in which case it's a coaching / managerial problem.  

Alternatively, those rare quality performances are a one in eight rarity and can't be sustained as the players aren't good enough.  If that's the case it's also a managerial issue as Lee as well as MA both have a significant say in the transfer dealings.

The transfer dealings are definitely a failing because the Club knew they were going to lose players who contributed nearly 40 goals last season.  It wasn't rocket science that the Club knew well in advance that they needed to recruit first team ready players who could replace those 'lost' goals.  I think Lee felt that he could 'do another Bobby Reid' with his recruitment of Weimann but his career stats over a prolonged period meant there was too much hope in that.   

The Club are desperately short of fit quality midfielders which is another transfer market failing.  I think the short-term solutions is to play the impressive Webster in midfield in place of the out form Pack.  City aren't short of decent quality centre-backs - Baker, Pisano, Lloyd Kelly and Bailey wright also returning.  We squander possession too easily and I think a midfield of Webster, Morrell or Browning, Eliasson and O'dowda would be interesting.   Play Famara and Mo Eisa up front and we'd at least have potential goal scorers in the team as long as they were told to take up positions in the box for the crosses that come in.  It might fail but at we're failing at present. We would at least setting up with a view to playing entertaining football and looking to resolve the lack of goal scoring / shots on target issue.

If that didn't work then, let's say by January, it would either either show we don't have the management team to bring the best out of talented players or, alternatively, they haven't recruited the right players. I'd like to see LJ succeed but either verdict would mean a management change is needed.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trueredsupporter]

15 hours ago, spudski said:

Over a whole season...right now with who we have available in the squad and fit....no.

January window will be massive in how our season finishes imo.

Yesterday was really poor tactically imo... 

As for whether a coach could do better with how SL wants to run it...I have my doubts. I could see someone coming in, agreeing with it for a season, then getting frustrated and wanting to change it.

This is how I think LJ is starting to feel and realising it's going to be harder to be anything more than a mid table side. Add the pressure from SL and the fans to do better...it all adds up.

SL doesn't pick the team, pick the tactics or attempt to motivate the players. Your posts have been saying LJ has been frequently tactically poor. His man management poor and motivation poor.

 

13 hours ago, Sturny said:

That would be the likely case. You could argue someone else could train/coach these hungry youngsters better. I don't believe we're getting the best out of our starting 11 every game. 

Unless you think LJ is the top viable option we could achieve and anyone else willing to be the manager would be a downgrade? 

Looking at spudskis posts its not hard to argue. If LJ is all the things he says he is he cannot be getting the best out of the team. Simple logic.

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

City can play exceptionally well - as they did against Stoke - so it raises the question why doesn't LJ replicate the tactics that worked so well then. 

What do you feel the bedrock of consistent performance is? 

[Sixtyseconds]

Goody a quiz question.

Q. What do you feel the bedrock of consistent performance is? 

A. The Manager then the players. 

 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

21 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

In May this year SL said that he wanted to see us this season: "get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season."

So, either 12 months is "long term," Steve was kidding us on, or you are wide of the mark on this one.

This I understood as a reference to his time at Barnsley where he left halfway through the season, and so missed out on having at least one promotion to his name (something tangible with which to counter barbs from the likes of Warnock). He wants to start a season and see a team through to promotion, and to do that here (but his best chance of that might be to see us relegated first).

Either to sell season tickets, or unrealistic expectations on the part of SL or finally perhaps a case of setting up LJ to fail so he could change manager with a years less compensation- one of those 3 IMO.

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Goody a quiz question.

Q. What do you feel the bedrock of consistent performance is? 

A. The Manager then the players. 

 

 

 

If only you could explain that in a 2,000 word rambling thesis.

[bcfcnick]

 

What do you feel the bedrock of consistent performance is? 

 

 

That's a tough question, Cowshed, but it's those elusive things like confidence and belief. Sometimes it's chicken and egg though and the confidence will only come from successive good results.

Confidence can come from managers though and it's where the likes of Neil Warnock get more out of a team than others would.  The 'bedrock' is also playing a formation where the players know their exact roles  and individuals who are suited to those roles are selected.   Not over-complicating things for the players is another factor.

We did have consistency last season but was that down to Bobby Reid and did the consistency disappear because the players were exhausted from the physical demands of high press or for some other reason?  

Successful teams do build from the back and City have done that well, however, I also think that every team needs a natural goal scorer in it.  Arsenal have that now and it can make the difference from being frustrating also-rans to consistent contenders.  They also have recruited a fantastic manager who will get more from the same players than many others would.

 

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

 

What do you feel the bedrock of consistent performance is? 

 

 

That's a tough question, Cowshed, but it's those elusive things like confidence and belief. Sometimes it's chicken and egg though and the confidence will only come from successive good results.

Confidence can come from managers though and it's where the likes of Neil Warnock get more out of a team than others would.  The 'bedrock' is also playing a formation where the players know their exact roles  and individuals who are suited to those roles are selected.   Not over-complicating things for the players is another factor.

We did have consistency last season but was that down to Bobby Reid and did the consistency disappear because the players were exhausted from the physical demands of high press or for some other reason?  

Successful teams do build from the back and City have done that well, however, I also think that every team needs a natural goal scorer in it.  Arsenal have that now and it can make the difference from being frustrating also-rans to consistent contenders.  They also have recruited a fantastic manager who will get more from the same players than many others would.

 

 

It is a does. Consistency is clearly a bedrock of consistent performance. Who drives that consistency of approach? Its the Manager.

Players knowing their exact roles and being the best prepared they can be via their preparation and training feeds confidence. Uncertainty and change generally will not .. And again the former is far more likely to create momentum to win more regularly. 

Many Managers can get basic resolve out of their teams by consistency of message, selection and tactics, and this includes teams that perennially struggle. 

Bristol City look a team that lacks belief and confidence… A reflection of the lack of consistency of message, selection and tactics.

.

 

 

[bcfcnick]

7 hours ago, Cowshed said:

It is a does. Consistency is clearly a bedrock of consistent performance. Who drives that consistency of approach? Its the Manager.

Players knowing their exact roles and being the best prepared they can be via their preparation and training feeds confidence. Uncertainty and change generally will not .. And again the former is far more likely to create momentum to win more regularly. 

Many Managers can get basic resolve out of their teams by consistency of message, selection and tactics, and this includes teams that perennially struggle. 

Bristol City look a team that lacks belief and confidence… A reflection of the lack of consistency of message, selection and tactics.

 

Yes, agreed, but it's also true that any manager will struggle given the lack of regular goal scorers in the side.  That then comes back to the manager for recruitment. Failure to sign a first team ready goal scorer forward (let alone a goal scoring midfielder) was a big mistake given the obvious need to replace our 40 goals a season departing trio.  Perhaps Mo Eisa can step up, but that's a big ask . An impossible ask in fact as LJ is unlikely to give him the opportunity aside from a couple of injury time minutes.