Predictable otib.......

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Exactly.

And in order to achieve Steve's aims, he would have to provide (a) the funds which he thought made this feasible, and (b) a manager capable of executing the plan with those funds.

Ipso facto, on the assumption that Steve feels that he has delivered in terms of funds, if we are not challenging to get in the top 6, there must by definition be a failure of management.

Well, 2016/17 went pear-shaped because of Tomlin, and was only turned around, when Lee finally gave LT the boot and turned to Taylor, and team energy and unity. SL was prepared to give Lee some slack - "young managers make mistakes, like young players" -in his first full season here. Fair enough.

2017/18 went pear-shaped because of tiredness and some wantaway star players, quite possibly. Maybe some other reasons, too. Again, with an improvement of 6 places in final placing and a league cup semi,  the slump was allowed for and more slack given. A disappointing slip from 2nd, but still progress overall.

In 2018/19, with a bunch of new players, no manager or leader can turn again, a third time, to his employer and say: can't get the staff, boss. All their fault. Won't wash. A bottom half finish, 13th or lower, would put pressure of Lee next season  (is how I imagine SL will think). Even an 11th would probably leave him under pressure start of next season.

If Steve's "vie for promotion" comment was genuine. I believe it was.

I reckon LJ will survive a lower finish this season than last - explained by the sale of three star players - but next season would be the cut-off: "get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season" next season or we will have to look elsewhere for someone who can match the high expectations of the owner.

Unless it is deemed that recruitment is the problem, and so MA is in the dock. But this season or next, at a guess, Steve will come to the conclusion that Lee can deliver "top six" or he cannot.

 

Lose Sunday and get dragged into another relegation dogfight and I don't know what Steve will think and do.

 

[Trueredsupporter]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

 

I remember watching the beginning of last season, and the Cup run....and in the back of my head thinking, this isn't sustainable over a whole season. And when a Coach told me of all the problems they were having with hamstring injuries throughout the Club, it reinforced my initial fears.

Unfortunately...that way of playing has set a bench mark...and it's what people are now expecting.

It's simply not sustainable over a whole season.

Hence LJ tweaking it...we don't play the same way anymore. He's realised it...and imo, he's still trying to find a way that will work over a season with the tools at his disposal.

 

 

 

You can certainly talk a game mind but this!! At the start of last season you had decided it wasn't sustainable. why couldn't LJ see this? why didn't he have replacements ready? and why were you not pointing all of this out at the start of the season on otib?

 

[spudski]

20 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

You can certainly talk a game mind but this!! At the start of last season you had decided it wasn't sustainable. why couldn't LJ see this? why didn't he have replacements ready? and why were you not pointing all of this out at the start of the season on otib?

 

LJ did see it...during the January transfer window. We played and recruited totally differently to how we started the season.

Also LJ has said he has brought in players this season to play differently to how we did last.

You don't need me to state it...when he's done so himself.

[Trueredsupporter]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

 LJ did see it...during the January transfer window. We played and recruited totally differently to how we started the season.

Also LJ has said he has brought in players this season to play differently to how we did last.

You don't need me to state it...when he's done so himself.

Fella my post said at the start of the season. Did you point it out on otib if it was so obviously not going to work season long?

So that is three changes of style in less than eighteen months all needing new players !! See that in advance as well?? Come it is nonsense.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Fella my post said at the start of the season. Did you point it out if it was so obviously not going to work season long?

So that is three changes of style in less than eighteen months all needing new players !! 

We haven't played that way at all this season...so I'm lost to what you are referring to.

I do find it strange that certain fans keep going on about how we used to play...and why aren't we doing it now...when it's blindingly obvious we haven't been playing a certain way for the best part of 11 months.

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, spudski said:

We haven't played that way at all this season...so I'm lost to what you are referring to.

I do find it strange that certain fans keep going on about how we used to play...and why aren't we doing it now...when it's blindingly obvious we haven't been playing a certain way for the best part of 11 months.

The problem is that in the last 11 months (giving him the benefit that he realised he couldn’t carry on playing the high press all last season) LJ has flitted from one idea to another, repeat, etc.  We haven’t been playing anyway.

Haven’t heard him say:

- split the CBs

- Pack playing in the cage

- playing through the thirds

- etc

for weeks!  They were his en vogue statements earlier this season. Now it’s:

- we played counterattack last season (bollocks did we!) but I realised we needed to go more direct (so he dropped Diedhiou last night!!!)....and sold Djuric 

If I was being very harsh I would say he is making it up as he goes along.  His arguments lack consistency and unfold under close  scrutiny. He sees things but cause and effect aren’t linked.

He has a real opportunity at this club, because he has been given time. Could that be part of the issue, he’s not under pressure?  Does that transfer to the players?

[glen humphries]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The problem is that in the last 11 months (giving him the benefit that he realised he couldn’t carry on playing the high press all last season) LJ has flitted from one idea to another, repeat, etc.  We haven’t been playing anyway.

Haven’t heard him say:

- split the CBs

- Pack playing in the cage

- playing through the thirds

- etc

for weeks!  They were his en vogue statements earlier this season. Now it’s:

- we played counterattack last season (bollocks did we!) but I realised we needed to go more direct (so he dropped Diedhiou last night!!!)....and sold Djuric 

If I was being very harsh I would say he is making it up as he goes along.  His arguments lack consistency and unfold under close  scrutiny. He sees things but cause and effect aren’t linked.

He has a real opportunity at this club, because he has been given time. Could that be part of the issue, he’s not under pressure?  Does that transfer to the players?

Bang on again Dave.

[italian dave]

6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I don't do insults, and Mr is used out of respect. 

I think Mr Johnson's methodology is nothing like to that of Pep Guardiola … It cannot be. It can never be till Mr Johnsons change stops. The methodology depends on the football having defining principles. It is simplistic. The game has five elements. These elements are governed by over riding principle, then sub principle and sub principles which enable the team to better, and better than anybody else meet the challenges faced. Five elements … Mr Johnson … He cannot have those five elements and over riding principle if he keeps changing them.  

Pep Guardiola also uses elements of tactical periodisation. Training in periods for a game of four elements - Chunking. This helps deeper learning because the training is not episodic. The less change in the football approach the more time is spent on that deep learning, creating more fluency .. A point made earlier this approach helps to feed confidence - The players know what they are and do because they do it so often.  Lee Johnson? It cannot be done, because there is no core system of play. 

Howe put his defining principles into place when the club was division one. Its managing the ball through the first third, quick penetration in the second, its defensive actions … Division one. That is a similar approach to the above.

Neither approach is Mr Johnson.  The organisation and meticulous attention to the model of play is not dependant on multi millionaire footballers, its built on the single minded belief of the Head Coach in his football. 

Regarding sense of entitlement .. I have nowhere said we have a right to success. I feel that the club can be better equipped to progress by adopting core playing fundamentals alongside its transfer strategy and use of academy. 

I didn't think it was an insult. Just unusually formal. (And a struggle to resist addressing you as Mr Cowshed . And now I've done it!)

I don't disagree with anything you say - although some of it I find a little removed from what I understand as simple! I think all I'm saying is that Guardiola and Howe are geniuses at what they do. LJ isn't a genius. And unless we have either the money to employ a genius, or the huge good fortune to come across one (they're very rare) the we have to accept second best and compromises. 

I didn't suggest that you had a sense of entitlement - just some on here. I agree 100% with you final point, and in a way that's my reluctance to see us go through yet another change of coach and all that entails. 

 

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

This isn't the bloody target! it's not the objective! !

Steve Lansdown did not say in May: "let's see if we can finish 11th again" ! He has not spent £50m on the ground to get comfortably nestled in the middle of the second tier of English football with it's £100m TV deal, when there is a £3 billion TV  cash bonanza one great season away, in the division above!

I have reminded you what he did say, but you seem to have missed this! 

Would you like to be reminded one more time?

 

 

 

 

(BTW, agree with you on the impossibility, the lottery, of picking a game-changer head coach or manager. But, some clubs do manage this)

No, don't need reminding thanks - just allowed some time to go to work!

I'm speaking for me, not SL, and after 40 years of watching us drift around the third tier, with occasional forays into the fourth and second, I can tell you I'm bloody thrilled with the fact that we've finally re-established ourselves in the second tier!!

Seriously - of course that's not the ultimate objective. In your later comment you talk about 'this year or next' and I'd agree with that. Realistically I didn't expect us to be top 6 this year. next year - assuming no unexpected events - I would. So maybe it's just timing/patience?

I'm not going to speak for SL, but if he said that having just sanctioned the departure of £20m + worth of talent, then I'd beg to disagree! I don't criticise him for that - we lost that much last year and we need to sell to be financially viable. 

[spudski]

37 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The problem is that in the last 11 months (giving him the benefit that he realised he couldn’t carry on playing the high press all last season) LJ has flitted from one idea to another, repeat, etc.  We haven’t been playing anyway.

Haven’t heard him say:

- split the CBs

- Pack playing in the cage

- playing through the thirds

- etc

for weeks!  They were his en vogue statements earlier this season. Now it’s:

- we played counterattack last season (bollocks did we!) but I realised we needed to go more direct (so he dropped Diedhiou last night!!!)....and sold Djuric 

If I was being very harsh I would say he is making it up as he goes along.  His arguments lack consistency and unfold under close  scrutiny. He sees things but cause and effect aren’t linked.

He has a real opportunity at this club, because he has been given time. Could that be part of the issue, he’s not under pressure?  Does that transfer to the players?

I agree Dave...and in posts earlier I said LJ is still trying to find a method that works.

It becomes even more complicated when he sets up to counter the opposition.

So each week there is a tweak...and different players brought in.

We are definitely playing less central and using width more...pulling players wide to create space in the middle. Plus we are crossing more.

We are getting through the first two thirds quicker, but struggling in the final third.

When we overload wide...like we did last night, it can work...but if we lose the ball, it needs to whole team to track back with energy.

As you and I have rightly pointed out, the likes of Elliason and Pato have been weak at doing this, and it's cost us. Last night was better.

Walsh is also cumbersome...whilst he has talent...he's hesitant...and that costs us as well.

It's still work in progress it seems.

I watched back the highlights earlier...it was a joy to see the passion and relief by the players at the end and after scoring.

You can see it has hurt...and you can see they bust a gut last night.

Whether they can be that determined every game remains to be seen...however it left me feeling proud of them. almost a backs to the wall mentality.

I want them to do well...and I want the Club to do well.

It's not brilliant at the moment...but most Clubs in this division aren't.

I just wish there was less negativity on here...and more support for what SL is trying to do.

No one's perfect...and he's made mistakes, but imo, he's trying to do the right thing now...that's why I'm supporting LJ and the lads.

I've reservations about things, like many...but I feel the negativity is really not beneficial and only adds extra pressure to a young squad.

If I thought LJ and others were doing the wrong thing for the Club, I'd be all over it like a rash...but I really do hope he builds on last season....and we keep progressing and find our mojo again.

[italian dave]

4 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Well, 2016/17 went pear-shaped because of Tomlin, and was only turned around, when Lee finally gave LT the boot and turned to Taylor, and team energy and unity. SL was prepared to give Lee some slack - "young managers make mistakes, like young players" -in his first full season here. Fair enough.

2017/18 went pear-shaped because of tiredness and some wantaway star players, quite possibly. Maybe some other reasons, too. Again, with an improvement of 6 places in final placing and a league cup semi,  the slump was allowed for and more slack given. A disappointing slip from 2nd, but still progress overall.

In 2018/19, with a bunch of new players, no manager or leader can turn again, a third time, to his employer and say: can't get the staff, boss. All their fault. Won't wash. A bottom half finish, 13th or lower, would put pressure of Lee next season  (is how I imagine SL will think). Even an 11th would probably leave him under pressure start of next season.

If Steve's "vie for promotion" comment was genuine. I believe it was.

I reckon LJ will survive a lower finish this season than last - explained by the sale of three star players - but next season would be the cut-off: "get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season" next season or we will have to look elsewhere for someone who can match the high expectations of the owner.

Unless it is deemed that recruitment is the problem, and so MA is in the dock. But this season or next, at a guess, Steve will come to the conclusion that Lee can deliver "top six" or he cannot.

 

Lose Sunday and get dragged into another relegation dogfight and I don't know what Steve will think and do.

 

Leadership - yes. I'm maybe more patient than you, but that's the one thing I'm losing patience over - the failure to find what everyone, LJ included, has acknowledged we need for years. A leader on the pitch. 

Watching Lloyd Kelly last night did make me wonder whether in a few years (and if we keep him)…? The sheer guts of those runs he made second half - lead by example. But we need one now - we needed one years ago.

Oh, and win Sunday and we're on the edge of the play offs!!

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

We haven't played that way at all this season...so I'm lost to what you are referring to.

I do find it strange that certain fans keep going on about how we used to play...and why aren't we doing it now...when it's blindingly obvious we haven't been playing a certain way for the best part of 11 months.

Yes it is blindingly obvious to poster after poster that the team is playing yet another style of football. 

In the past you were full of praise for LJ's style of football .. The football he abandoned. At the start of the season you were making statements about Mr Johnson recruitment and the football that would be played, he has ditched that as well, as I implied was very likely to happen due to his history of inconsistency.

This cycle of change is not stability. It is not progressive as teams are not being built beyond short terms. It wastes money. It is ill focussed. And it makes makes Lee Johnson sound like a bluffer to fans.

5 hours ago, italian dave said:

I didn't think it was an insult. Just unusually formal. (And a struggle to resist addressing you as Mr Cowshed . And now I've done it!)

I don't disagree with anything you say - although some of it I find a little removed from what I understand as simple! I think all I'm saying is that Guardiola and Howe are geniuses at what they do. LJ isn't a genius. And unless we have either the money to employ a genius, or the huge good fortune to come across one (they're very rare) the we have to accept second best and compromises. 

I didn't suggest that you had a sense of entitlement - just some on here. I agree 100% with you final point, and in a way that's my reluctance to see us go through yet another change of coach and all that entails. 

 

Last one on the topic for now.

By breaking the game down into five elements attack, defence, transition to defence/attack and set pieces which then have playing principles in place e.g Attack - relational distances of width and depth (includes formation) and creating numerical superiority across zones Guardiola simplifies his football by having a framework that changes little.

Bristol City have no one framework to simplify the football. By having varying styles the football has to have more actions to form frameworks for the styles. Mr Johnsons football is more complex but with inferior players.  

[spudski]

9 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes it is blindingly obvious to poster after poster that the team is playing yet another style of football. 

In the past you were full of praise for LJ's style of football .. The football he abandoned. At the start of the season you were making statements about Mr Johnson recruitment and the football that would be played, he has ditched that as well, as I implied was very likely to happen due to his history of inconsistency.

This cycle of change is not stability. It is not progressive as teams are not being built beyond short terms. It wastes money. It is ill focussed. And it makes makes Lee Johnson sound like a bluffer to fans.

Last one on the topic for now.

By breaking the game down into five elements attack, defence, transition to defence/attack and set pieces which then have playing principles in place e.g Attack - relational distances of width and depth (includes formation) and creating numerical superiority across zones Guardiola simplifies his football by having a framework that changes little.

Bristol City have no one framework to simplify the football. By having varying styles the football has to have more actions to form frameworks for the styles. Mr Johnsons football is more complex but with inferior players.  

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

Kalas when signing for us said he wanted to come because he was impressed with LJ and his way of coaching and the way he try's to play football.

The likes of Chelsea wouldn't continue to send us players if they thought LJ was crap and would stagnate the progress of their players.

It's obvious he's changing our style of football gradually. It's an ongoing process. What do you want...a one trick pony that sticks to the same formula all his career?

 

[Robbored]

35 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

Kalas when signing for us said he wanted to come because he was impressed with LJ and his way of coaching and the way he try's to play football.

The likes of Chelsea wouldn't continue to send us players if they thought LJ was crap and would stagnate the progress of their players.

It's obvious he's changing our style of football gradually. It's an ongoing process. What do you want...a one trick pony that sticks to the same formula all his career?

 

Spot on again Spudski. 

I wish a greater number of posters would take more notice of what you post.

[Mr Popodopolous]

40 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

Kalas when signing for us said he wanted to come because he was impressed with LJ and his way of coaching and the way he try's to play football.

The likes of Chelsea wouldn't continue to send us players if they thought LJ was crap and would stagnate the progress of their players.

It's obvious he's changing our style of football gradually. It's an ongoing process. What do you want...a one trick pony that sticks to the same formula all his career?

 

It's completely different.

I watched- let's say our golden period, but I watched highlights and extended highlights of the Hull (2nd half especially), Middlesbrough, Sheffield United, Forest and Reading games from last November-December. Haven't yet watched the Manchester games, the Wolves game (I know we lost but played very nicely still).

What was really quite noticeable was how narrow we were, how compact in the defensive, midfield and attacking phases. Brownhill on the right meant we could get that 3 in there as and when, 4 centre backs meant we could condense the middle in the defensive phase. Having so many players comfortable with playing centrally meant we could with ease swarm the middle and outnumber/outmanoeuvre sides with more orthodox players out wide.

Paterson and Reid? Brilliant partnership- could again help fill the centre when necessary, not least because Reid was until last season a midfielder. 

I digress though, we played with a distinct lack of width and quite a bit of fluidity. Something we certainly don't now and IMO something that Hunt at RB, orthodox wingers in a 4-4-1-1 cannot buy into- you gain width with them in place but at the expense of flexibility and fluidity. Watkins isn't capable in this respect, Hunt isn't capable in this respect, Eliasson may develop into it but isn't that capable in that respect- O'Dowda is our best hope in that respect for the left in terms of our wingers say, if we want to play that way.

Diedhiou certainly cannot fill the Reid role. Absolutely not- chalk and cheese, night and day.

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes it is blindingly obvious to poster after poster that the team is playing yet another style of football. 

In the past you were full of praise for LJ's style of football .. The football he abandoned. At the start of the season you were making statements about Mr Johnson recruitment and the football that would be played, he has ditched that as well, as I implied was very likely to happen due to his history of inconsistency.

This cycle of change is not stability. It is not progressive as teams are not being built beyond short terms. It wastes money. It is ill focussed. And it makes makes Lee Johnson sound like a bluffer to fans.

Last one on the topic for now.

By breaking the game down into five elements attack, defence, transition to defence/attack and set pieces which then have playing principles in place e.g Attack - relational distances of width and depth (includes formation) and creating numerical superiority across zones Guardiola simplifies his football by having a framework that changes little.

Bristol City have no one framework to simplify the football. By having varying styles the football has to have more actions to form frameworks for the styles. Mr Johnsons football is more complex but with inferior players.  

I love 99% of your posts, the odd one I don’t understand (my own failings not yours).....but the highlighted bit above is football at its simplest.  It’s almost beautiful! 

Thanks.

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

Kalas when signing for us said he wanted to come because he was impressed with LJ and his way of coaching and the way he try's to play football.

The likes of Chelsea wouldn't continue to send us players if they thought LJ was crap and would stagnate the progress of their players.

It's obvious he's changing our style of football gradually. It's an ongoing process. What do you want...a one trick pony that sticks to the same formula all his career?

 

It’s not obvious, or gradual, it’s exactly the opposite.  It’s knee-jerk, inconsistent, not thought through (guesswork of cause and effect, because he’s so reliant on stats), and not on a transitional roadmap to getting his team to its end-state (Surrey, that’s the bollocks I write in my day job - but it’s relevant here!).  It’s a mix.  You cannot say we are trying to gradually move to that when LJ says things like “we are looking to play more direct this season”, then leaves Famara out....and moves Djúric on.  

Even Magnússon moving on having mentioned 1) direct style (see above) and 2) his long-throws is questionable.  You could argue that had LJ impressed the importance of Mags in his future, he may have wanted to stay.  Of course, with Kelly coming through, you can see why.  Having said that, of course, Lloyd has a long throw, so sensible sale from LJ, but we don’t have the strikers (or a Goalscoring CB) to utilise.  Again, fuzzy logic!

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Spot on again Spudski. 

I wish a greater number of posters would take more notice of what you post.

Get a room 

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's completely different.

I watched- let's say our golden period, but I watched highlights and extended highlights of the Hull (2nd half especially), Middlesbrough, Sheffield United, Forest and Reading games from last November-December.

What was really quite noticeable was how narrow we were, how compact in the defensive, midfield and attacking phases. Brownhill on the right meant we could get that 3 in there as and when, 4 centre backs meant we could condense the middle in the defensive phase. 

Paterson and Reid? Brilliant partnership- could again help fill the centre when necessary, not least because Reid was until last season a midfielder. 

I digress though, we played with a distinct lack of width and quite a bit of fluidity. Something we certainly don't now and IMO something that Hunt at RB, orthodox wingers in a 4-4-1-1 cannot buy into- you gain width with them in place but at the expense of flexibility and fluidity. Watkins isn't capable in this respect, Hunt isn't capable in this respect, Eliasson may develop into it but isn't that capable in that respect- O'Dowda is our best hope in that respect for the left in terms of our wingers say, if we want to play that way.

Diedhiou certainly cannot fill the Reid role. Absolutely not- chalk and cheese, night and day.

Funny that Mr P....I use Boro and Forest as my two “example” games to demonstrate how our full-backless / no striker style was very effective last season.  The line-up of four CBs, a narrow RM (Brownhill) and a LB at LM (Bryan) and no out and out no9, was when we ground teams down.  We were compact, etc, just as you state above.

the goals from those two games:

Bryan, far post header from a cross on the run by CB playing as FB Bailey Wright

Paterson, broke from a corner, Flint galloping up the pitch, before a sublime chipped cross to Pato to volley in

Pack, 25 yard daisy cutter

Bryan, swerving 25 yarder

We didnt create many chances in those games, but we built pressure, and the crowd built its anticipation and noise as we did.  We broke teams.  We as fans knew something was coming.

Today, it’s all sporadic with no method, and we as fans don’t get that sense that we are building...and building....and building pressure.  We allow the opposition to break any momentum with ease.

[Cidre Monita]

16 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree Dave...and in posts earlier I said LJ is still trying to find a method that works.

It becomes even more complicated when he sets up to counter the opposition.

So each week there is a tweak...and different players brought in.

We are definitely playing less central and using width more...pulling players wide to create space in the middle. Plus we are crossing more.

We are getting through the first two thirds quicker, but struggling in the final third.

When we overload wide...like we did last night, it can work...but if we lose the ball, it needs to whole team to track back with energy.

As you and I have rightly pointed out, the likes of Elliason and Pato have been weak at doing this, and it's cost us. Last night was better.

Walsh is also cumbersome...whilst he has talent...he's hesitant...and that costs us as well.

It's still work in progress it seems.

I watched back the highlights earlier...it was a joy to see the passion and relief by the players at the end and after scoring.

You can see it has hurt...and you can see they bust a gut last night.

Whether they can be that determined every game remains to be seen...however it left me feeling proud of them. almost a backs to the wall mentality.

I want them to do well...and I want the Club to do well.

It's not brilliant at the moment...but most Clubs in this division aren't.

I just wish there was less negativity on here...and more support for what SL is trying to do.

No one's perfect...and he's made mistakes, but imo, he's trying to do the right thing now...that's why I'm supporting LJ and the lads.

I've reservations about things, like many...but I feel the negativity is really not beneficial and only adds extra pressure to a young squad.

If I thought LJ and others were doing the wrong thing for the Club, I'd be all over it like a rash...but I really do hope he builds on last season....and we keep progressing and find our mojo again.

But if you do not know what your mojo is how do you find it ? LJ has not worked it out yet, after 3 years and 47 players.

Nothing wrong with the SL approach, massively flawed if you do not hire the right person or the best people   to execute it. LJ cannot deliver as he has substantial flaws in his skill set. 

It is why SOD is now an Academy coach. It is where LJ will end up. 

[redsince1994]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Paterson, broke from a corner, Flint galloping up the pitch, before a sublime chipped cross to Pato to volley in

 

One of my favourite ever city goals. Flint looked so lost for a second I was genuinely starting to laugh, then dug out the perfect cross. Laughter turned into cheering very quickly!

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

But if you do not know what your mojo is how do you find it ? LJ has not worked it out yet, after 3 years and 47 players.

Nothing wrong with the SL approach, massively flawed if you do not hire the right person or the best people   to execute it. LJ cannot deliver as he has substantial flaws in his skill set. 

It is why SOD is now an Academy coach. It is where LJ will end up. 

He'll end up coaching abroad.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, spudski said:

He'll end up coaching abroad.

Guernsey FC? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

58 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I love 99% of your posts, the odd one I don’t understand (my own failings not yours).....but the highlighted bit above is football at its simplest.  It’s almost beautiful! 

Thanks.

It’s not obvious, or gradual, it’s exactly the opposite.  It’s knee-jerk, inconsistent, not thought through (guesswork of cause and effect, because he’s so reliant on stats), and not on a transitional roadmap to getting his team to its end-state (Surrey, that’s the bollocks I write in my day job - but it’s relevant here!).  It’s a mix.  You cannot say we are trying to gradually move to that when LJ says things like “we are looking to play more direct this season”, then leaves Famara out....and moves Djúric on.  

Even Magnússon moving on having mentioned 1) direct style (see above) and 2) his long-throws is questionable.  You could argue that had LJ impressed the importance of Mags in his future, he may have wanted to stay.  Of course, with Kelly coming through, you can see why.  Having said that, of course, Lloyd has a long throw, so sensible sale from LJ, but we don’t have the strikers (or a Goalscoring CB) to utilise.  Again, fuzzy logic!

Get a room 

Funny that Mr P....I use Boro and Forest as my two “example” games to demonstrate how our full-backless / no striker style was very effective last season.  The line-up of four CBs, a narrow RM (Brownhill) and a LB at LM (Bryan) and no out and out no9, was when we ground teams down.  We were compact, etc, just as you state above.

the goals from those two games:

Bryan, far post header from a cross on the run by CB playing as FB Bailey Wright

Paterson, broke from a corner, Flint galloping up the pitch, before a sublime chipped cross to Pato to volley in

Pack, 25 yard daisy cutter

Bryan, swerving 25 yarder

We didnt create many chances in those games, but we built pressure, and the crowd built its anticipation and noise as we did.  We broke teams.  We as fans knew something was coming.

Today, it’s all sporadic with no method, and we as fans don’t get that sense that we are building...and building....and building pressure.  We allow the opposition to break any momentum with ease.

Agreed Dave.

I'll watch back further but I don't think it was just a case of grinding down- our passing was very much on point too- teams couldn't cope at times tbh. In terms of chances, we may not have created a huge number of clearcut but we had rather a lot of shots in those 2- think we had 30 in 2 games. Just as importantly, our compact shape restricted the opposition to very few clear cut chances in those 2 games especially. People spoke about QPR as being much poorer post Man Utd but for some reason we actually broke from our 4-4-1-1 in the first half at least- can't remember why but we did and we saw the suddenly less fluid, less cohesive play as a result. Made 3 changes. We got the draw in the end which was fine I guess, but it showed the impact. Think Leko for Pack and Brownhill moved centrally plus Taylor for Paterson and Kelly for Magnússon the other changes. Quite right about the goals too, came from the building of pressure, the steady yet consistent pressure on the opposition.

I think we could replicate that system with the current personnel, but in a bit of an inferior form tbh- some players as good as or improving, some not so much- but as a while bit of an inferior form.

         Maenpaa

Hunt Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh Da Silva

           Paterson

       Weimann/Taylor

When Smith returns we can think again and when Wright returns then likewise, assuming they're still both out but that stylistically and shape wise is the closest we have to that atm. It isn't perfect but Diedhiou wouldn't fit that IMO- Paterson behind Diedhiou say doesn't enable us to have that same flexibility at all. Leaves a dilemma though given Diedhiou has a good chance he will score and Eliasson's improvement this season- could argue neither would deserve dropping.

@redsince1994 Not wrong- that was brilliant! Something we have often not been superb at either, the counterattacking rapid turnover, but that was great.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed Dave.

I'll watch back further but I don't think it was just a case of grinding down- our passing was very much on point too- teams couldn't cope at times tbh. In terms of chances, we may not have created a huge number of clearcut but we had rather a lot of shots in those 2- think we had 30 in 2 games. Just as importantly, our compact shape restricted the opposition to very few clear cut chances in those 2 games especially. People spoke about QPR as being much poorer post Man Utd but for some reason we actually broke from our 4-4-1-1 in the first half at least- can't remember why but we did and we saw the suddenly less fluid, less cohesive play as a result. Made 3 changes. We got the draw in the end which was fine I guess, but it showed the impact. Think Leko for Pack and Brownhill moved centrally plus Taylor for Paterson and Kelly for Magnússon the other changes. Quite right about the goals too, came from the building of pressure, the steady yet consistent pressure on the opposition.

I think we could replicate that system with the current personnel, but in a bit of an inferior form tbh- some players as good as or improving, some not so much- but as a while bit of an inferior form.

         Maenpaa

Hunt Kalas Webster Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh Da Silva

           Paterson

       Weimann/Taylor

When Smith returns we can think again and when Wright returns then likewise, assuming they're still both out but that stylistically and shape wise is the closest we have to that atm. It isn't perfect but Diedhiou wouldn't fit that IMO- Paterson behind Diedhiou say doesn't enable us to have that same flexibility at all. Leaves a dilemma though given Diedhiou has a good chance he will score.

@redsince1994 Not wrong- that was brilliant! Something we have often not been superb at either, the counterattacking rapid turnover, but that was great.

You read my mind!  To be honest, I think that side resonated a bit with my football identity and the way I’d probably play, and it influences the sort of sides I would pick if I were manager.

Your narrow point earlier is interesting because in the main, crosses from the wings (out very wide), statistically don’t end up in many goals.  Crosses from the width of the penalty area do (see Man City).  Eliasson’s cross to Pato and Wright’s cross to Bryan are more exceptions.

Re your Diedhiou paragraph - if we were to be really brave (and disciplined) and play as high a line as possible the gap / distance from back to front (Diedhiou) would be smaller and might allow it to work, especially when Webster also joins in.  Against Stoke our back four were camped on the halfway line, meaning our midfield were in touch with both defence and attack.  Look his many 10 yard passes we got into Diedhiou that second half, Little give and go’s, runner off him etc.  It could work, but not without our defence being comfortable to push up.  Is that where our 4 CB helped...in that they know how to play a line?

[spudski]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Guernsey FC? 

C'mon Dave you're better than that

He's a young coach...far from perfect, and he's learning everyday. But he's trying to do the right thing. He's doing as he's being asked.

If people don't like it, they should have more of a gripe at SL rather than the coach...

The Club are trying to do it properly.

If LJ was such a bad coach...Prem Clubs wouldn't send their players here, and other Managers wouldn't praise him.

He isn't getting the results everyone wants, and we are obviously in transition again, in the way we play. Fans don't like it...because LJ came out and said he needed so many windows, and SL said he wants promotion.

The expectations have been quoted, and everyone is up in arms because it isn't happening.

Football isn't like that...every club makes plans...99% of them go pear shape.

It's an organic process.

The vitriol on here is ridiculous...it's like a snowball picking up as many negative things about the club as possible.

It is ironic how busy this forum becomes when results and performances have been poor...when going well, it's almost redundant.

A massive element wallow in negativity and actually enjoy finding fault with the club and nit picking...can't actually believe some support this Club.

They are trying to do the right thing...we sit mid table...and have progressed each season since being up.

So many other bigger teams struggling to do better.

I just don't get it sometimes.

If he were doing it for himself and going against everything the Club want...I'd get it...but he isn't.

He just isnt doing what certain fans want on the pitch.

Every fan could write the same about their Club.

Lists of how much we've spent, who we bought, who we've sold...how much money was wasted, why are we playing this way, what's wrong with the owner, all the mistakes they've made, wrong subs, wrong team selection, blah, blah, blah...it's absolutely pointless.

So many keyboard warriors that think they know how to do it better.

If that was the case...every Club would be getting it right.

Not directed at you...but this forum has become ridiculous lately.

It's just so many negative people egging one another on.

Gonna give it a break for a while...and cheer on the lads on Sunday.

I hope they stick it up em...COYR's.

[Davefevs]

I’ve been pretty consistent in my praise and criticism of LJ....and those above him and his assistants.  The one thing I'm sure about is that he’s a good coach.

One thing I’ve learned about posting on the forum is that it’s easier to write negatively than positively.

Sitting here today, 3 years on (roughly) from his appointment I haven’t seen enough progress in Lee Johnson the Head-Coach, forget Bristol City, not against the kind of development curve I would expect from a young manager.  That disappoints me.

I obviously want us to do well, but I can accept us being 10th-16th because we have to sell our best players, developing the likes of Kelly, improving the likes of Brownhill, O’Dowda etc to be the next player to sell, because we need to break even.  That would be a decent “excuse" for us not being able to push-on.  But we are doing this whilst wasting / losing £millions.  Some / most (?) If that is down to LJ not being able to translate the training ground to the pitch....be that:

• an idea is just an idea and not ready to move to the real-life of Championship football.  Look how much companies spend on R&D, customer testing etc before product launch.  I get the impression that LJ comes up with something on his 80” tv, spends the next day’s training focusing on it, convincing himself it works, without remembering how it fits in with the other 99% of the match or how an opponent might thwart it, or worse stop you ever getting the opportunity to use it.
• man-management to handle a bloated squad
• man-management to have a consistent team selection process

[Bristol Oil Services]

17 hours ago, italian dave said:

Leadership - yes. I'm maybe more patient than you, but that's the one thing I'm losing patience over - the failure to find what everyone, LJ included, has acknowledged we need for years. A leader on the pitch. 

Watching Lloyd Kelly last night did make me wonder whether in a few years (and if we keep him)…? The sheer guts of those runs he made second half - lead by example. But we need one now - we needed one years ago.

Oh, and win Sunday and we're on the edge of the play offs!!

It's not my thoughts or patience, I'm just relaying SL's own words in May this year because lots of people appear to be unaware of his hopes for this season. His hopes were for a better season than last, not a poorer one (as tough an ask as that is, without Reid, Flint and Bryan).

Like you, I have seen a lot worse and I'm not unhappy with midtable in the Championship this season, and not in any great hurry to reach the PL, but I am not so sure we are quite as "established" at this level as some have suggested. 

Apologies if my vehemence was over the top.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You read my mind!  To be honest, I think that side resonated a bit with my football identity and the way I’d probably play, and it influences the sort of sides I would pick if I were manager.

Your narrow point earlier is interesting because in the main, crosses from the wings (out very wide), statistically don’t end up in many goals.  Crosses from the width of the penalty area do (see Man City).  Eliasson’s cross to Pato and Wright’s cross to Bryan are more exceptions.

Re your Diedhiou paragraph - if we were to be really brave (and disciplined) and play as high a line as possible the gap / distance from back to front (Diedhiou) would be smaller and might allow it to work, especially when Webster also joins in.  Against Stoke our back four were camped on the halfway line, meaning our midfield were in touch with both defence and attack.  Look his many 10 yard passes we got into Diedhiou that second half, Little give and go’s, runner off him etc.  It could work, but not without our defence being comfortable to push up.  Is that where our 4 CB helped...in that they know how to play a line?

Agree with all you write on this, would also add Kalas has more to give IMO than we have seen. Fact he was such a good passing CB at Fulham means he could perhaps push a bit when Webster sits, all about those options- that versatility. Could well have been short range- 10 yards- would work quite well for Diedhiou then, I'd have to look at his stats there etc- makes me wonder if LJ is instructing/utilising him differently to Jokanovic or Karanka.

Agreed- the wider crosses I don't see as so effective these days- width of the penalty area seems a good length now. I'll look back at those highlights again and more but fairly sure as you say width of penalty area is the optimum length and quite often was during that run. I forgot to add in that post, Eliasson and Kelly on the left could have a good partnership- just wonder if it might sacrifice a bit of defensive stability that say Da Silva and Kelly would give. All about trade offs though- unless you're amongst the very best teams in the world, top 10-20 say, those trade offs are necessary.

[Cowshed]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

Kalas when signing for us said he wanted to come because he was impressed with LJ and his way of coaching and the way he try's to play football.

The likes of Chelsea wouldn't continue to send us players if they thought LJ was crap and would stagnate the progress of their players.

It's obvious he's changing our style of football gradually. It's an ongoing process. What do you want...a one trick pony that sticks to the same formula all his career?

 

You have contradicted your own posts again. It is becoming weird ... Sorry you are rambling inconsistently. 

Exactly what ... No it is not. Posts 262 & 263 provide balanced explanations. It is completely different and it is not gradual. 

[Three Lions]

12 hours ago, spudski said:

Your last sentence is exactly what LJ is trying to do.

He is playing 'complex' football...with what you rightly say...'inferior' players. However...they are 'inferior' players to say the top of the Prem...the benchmark.

There is nothing wrong in trying to play this way. Of course mistakes will be made...as the players have less ability. He is showing them ways of playing football that will develop them into better footballers.

 

 

Earlier you said in the thread the football was changed due to injury and it was not sustainable. Have concerns about recruitment. You also said Lee Johnson is a poor man manager who cant motivate the players who are playing within themselves so players dont have confidence. Made some point about inexperience that posters demolished with facts. The club is too cosy and nice. We need stability err but keep bringing in new players for ever changing styles but this now is about developing players and nobody could actually do a better job than LJ. 

Do you actually believe what you post?

[Trueredsupporter]

On 29/11/2018 at 17:31, spudski said:

We haven't played that way at all this season...so I'm lost to what you are referring to.

I do find it strange that certain fans keep going on about how we used to play...and why aren't we doing it now...when it's blindingly obvious we haven't been playing a certain way for the best part of 11 months.

Change that is what fans are going on about on every page and the majority of posts. Simple to understand and strange that you wont accept it.

10 hours ago, spudski said:

The vitriol on here is ridiculous...it's like a snowball picking up as many negative things about the club as possible.

It is ironic how busy this forum becomes when results and performances have been poor...when going well, it's almost redundant.

A massive element wallow in negativity and actually enjoy finding fault with the club and nit picking...can't actually believe some support this Club.

Lists of how much we've spent, who we bought, who we've sold...how much money was wasted, why are we playing this way, what's wrong with the owner, all the mistakes they've made, wrong subs, wrong team selection, blah, blah, blah...it's absolutely pointless.

So many keyboard warriors that think they know how to do it better.

Not directed at you...but this forum has become ridiculous lately.

It's just so many negative people egging one another on.

 

is in your posts everytime people,disagree with you. 

[RumRed]

3 hours ago, Three Lions said:

Earlier you said in the thread the football was changed due to injury and it was not sustainable. Have concerns about recruitment. You also said Lee Johnson is a poor man manager who cant motivate the players who are playing within themselves so players dont have confidence. Made some point about inexperience that posters demolished with facts. The club is too cosy and nice. We need stability err but keep bringing in new players for ever changing styles but this now is about developing players and nobody could actually do a better job than LJ. 

Do you actually believe what you post?

Obviously was on the same coaching course as LJ.  Sounds great, but very contradictory.