Hxj Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Second Hearing is referenced The EFL can appeal, which is fine. The CFRU can also wait until after 31 March and refer again. See paragraph 52 of the decision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 7 minutes ago, Hxj said: The EFL can appeal, which is fine. The CFRU can also wait until after 31 March and refer again. See paragraph 52 of the decision. March 31st is about FFI though. I'm seeing if I'm on the right track here. This was FFI feeding from last year into this and beyond. FFI seems highly likely given anything in excess of £15m, this applies only to 2.8 and 2.9. I see now..yes irrespective of what the in-season P&S says it has to be post 31st March. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Matt Hughes reports that Leicester could face 2 deductions next year if found in Breach. That would be quite something if true..has the chance of it occurring with Everton set an interesting precedent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Matt Hughes reports that Leicester could face 2 deductions next year if found in Breach Posted Tuesday at 13:14 (edited) On 05/03/2024 at 00:34, Mr Popodopolous said: What is your take? The Leicester story Usual 'journalistic' nonsense. If Leicester are in breach in 2022/23 they will get punished by the EFL in 2023/24 or by the EPL in 2024/25, assuming they are promoted. If Leicester breach in 2023/24 they will get punished by the EPL in 2024/25, on the same basis. So there is the possibility that Leicester will get an irrelevant punishment in 2023/24 (not sufficient to stop promotion) or two punishments in 2024/25. That is how the rules are currently designed to work. He obviously reads OTIB then! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob26 Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13168047/Leicester-loophole-football-spending-rules-Premier-League-EFL-club.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Depending on how much they've breached by if they fail this year, the 3rd placed side provided they themselves are and have been compliant at all times, should be getting in touch with Lawyers. If they failed last year then suddenly their case v Everton looks unlikely to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 What difference would a Business Plan imposed in November say have made, given that Leicester added nobody in January anyway. Or is that the golden ticket for an In-season deduction? You might be right @Hxj about whether he reads forums. From his article linked above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 One more bit.. Cardiff City Holdings mostly the same but quite the rise in Commercial Revenue? Were they merely underperforming or does it require further scrutiny..like Birmingham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Yet more. Take that to be Leeds, Ipswich, Southampton- assuming they are all compliant of course. Ha what a rant!! Paranoid? Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Still he goes. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) https://archive.is/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/03/07/leicester-points-deduction-promotion-efl-premier-league/ Says it will be next season or Leicester hope so, but surely the 1st March and CFRP are pertinent. Should also add, it says they would obviously Appeal a decision that affects Promotion but surely you deduct with instant effect if a Hearing deems it so, then the onus is on the club to Appeal. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Maybe my post quoting is a bit far but the Special Pleading by whichever fans really annoys me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BristolFox Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) You make some interesting posts @Mr Popodopolous. As a Leicester fan that’s been studying the clubs accounts I thought I’d add some spots of my own. The May 2021 accounts quoted covid losses of £50 million across the two related years in question. Now I believe for those two years the Premier League accepted average losses for the overall reporting AND allowed the Covid losses as additional to the £105 limit? I therefore believe there may be a chunk of around £35 million of ‘allowable’ Covid losses still in play for the 22/23 PS&R calculation. There may also be infrastructure spending (Seagrave training complex) of around £25 million alongside spend on the woman’s team and Youth Academy - which along with the Forfana transfer fee - would probably prove enough to stay within limits for that 3-year reporting period. BUT - I do suspect the club is very tight with the 23/24 PS&R calculation given that the 2021 year drops off, whilst the heavy £92m loss year remains, plus reduced overall limit and Championship level income. That said - Leicester are a regular user of Macquaire to expensively bring forward funds due to it and it’s notable the relating loan charge for the Maddison transfer was placed in September 2023, potentially placing those funds within the 23/24 accounting year. Edited March 7 by BristolFox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Thanks and I went a bit far Special Pleading wise @BristolFox However anyway. I believe as I did at the start Leicester okay to last year. The case(s) v Everton and or Nottingham Forest remain on if so. The funds are Cash Flow in the main, maybe this is exception to the rule, but often it is bringing towards the instalments and paying Interest or a Facility Fee to do so. I guess the Accounts will reveal all. I am a strong believer in Real Time referrals, but then by this token Everton drop in 2021-22 probably, Leicester probably stay up over Burnley. Ah yes, 2019-20 and 2020-21 are aggregated and halved. Think the Covid losses in the 2 years wwre reported as £50m..again it gets averaged and halved. £25m, Infrastructure Expenditure is usually Additions to Tangible Fixed Assets, and or Cash Flow. Maybe Interest linked to it can be excluded, how separated out is it? That was an issue for Everton. Clearly Depreciation excluded from the FFP/P&S/PSR. There was around £1.4m stated in the 2021-22 Accounts for Covid in addition to the 2 main years. £20-25m per year in FFP add-backs and I've assumed that wages drop by 50% from peak. Relegation clauses to reduce wages are often between 25-50%. Interest Payments will have dropped as King Power wrote off debt? That all helps. Incidentally I made a flippant comment about it being mainly Midlands clubs but in general I have no real bias (well I dislike Aston Villa and the usual local rivals) but at the very least they seem to feature more than many. I did some posts a number of months ago pulling out Depreciation, Community Expenditure, Women's Team and Intangible Asset stuff other than players. The main missing piece is Academy. £10m a year? £15m a year? Often (not always granted) such Fixed Asset expenditure is as I say Additions not P&L so doesn't impact FFP either way. My summary? Tight but probably fine therefore wronged last season, major major challenge to 2023-24. Quick one. Read a bit about Impairment on your board. Your club could've done that last year but it would still factor in the 3 years, would ease costs and make it easier to offload in subsequent years. The other thing, if e.g. Leicester were to look to sell a Fixed Asset or even sell and leaseback, basically such Profit is excluded from the EFL P&S/FFP calculations. Has been since 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BristolFox Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) I think the women’s team costs were quoted at close to £5 million for 2022, so you can imagine a full blown youth academy could invite annual costs of anywhere between £10 - £20 million with creative accounting. The club still owns its previous training ground which the women currently use I believe, so potentially a further saleable asset and get out of jail card if needed? It doesn’t, however own the stadium directly - that’s on Hire Purchase via King Power according to the accounts - but that at least show they know that trick They may even be banking on promotion so that they can immediately bring forward the Prem TV monies via Macquaire before the reporting period ends. Other potential income - beating Chelsea in the Quarters would be worth a few million and there’s a tribunal for the young lad that went to Liverpool which would be pure transfer profit - so there’s income scope but I bet the club would have had liked more dead wood off the books to be sure. Edited March 7 by BristolFox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Not a get out of jail card because Fixed Asset Profits do not count towards P&S figures. I can show you the exact rule if you like. The Stadium or old Training Ground or any other Tangible Fixed Assets Profits are adjusted out of P&S calculations. My view was £10-15m Academy wise, seen it stated that it is similar to Aston Villa numerically. PL cash vs Macquarie again Macquarie is often Cash Flow, not Profit and Loss/Revenue so I dunno. When exactly the timings of TV Payments kick in verbatim maybe June? Idk. July? One estimate I did had Leicester £20m above this year, another was a few million above. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Fwiw I as are many of us. Big fans of NP, disgracefully treated him and his staff. I was pro giving him a new 3 year deal, big staff too and a bigger budget. Our wise leaders seem to think otherwise...they're wrong. On the Financial matters. 2019-20 and 2020-21 Total Losses £100.381m Halved £50.1905m Less £50.014m Again halved £25.007m Less- Depreciation Average £2,935,500 Less (Leased Asset Depreciation) £0.984m Less- (Computer Software Amortisation) Average- £0.334m Less- Impairment of Goodwill Average-£0.035k Less- Community Expenditure Average- £1,395,588.50. Women's Team Below Including the Covid stuff pushing £30m plus Academy. That is for the Covid years. My own gut feeling from early was that Leicester extended to 30th June in part to get Maddison over the line by then to pass PSR for that period. However 2024 looks very challenging. (IMO). Conversely if Maddison in this season, surely an issue arises to 2022-23. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, BristolFox said: I do suspect the club is very tight with the 23/24 PS&R calculation It is clear from the recent EFL published decision that LCFC are predicting that they are failing 2023/24. If they were to pass (regardless of the margin) then the CFRU would not have been in a position to report them to the CFRP as a failure to agree a business plan. Business plans only apply to clubs which are predicting failure. What happens next is anyone's guess. My prediction is that LCFC will agree say a 4 point penalty with the EFL for the 2022/23 period on the grounds that it makes no difference to their return to the EPL for 2024/25. Clearly there is a period in which Leicester's performance will be critical. The alternative is to take two points penalties in 2024/25 if promoted. That will probably result in relegation to the Championship for 2025/26 which will create further FFP issues. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 As for 2021-22... Others can subtract, out together spreadsheets etc. I'll just pull out raw numbers. Pre-Tax Loss £92.496m Less- Depreciation £7.153m Less- Software Amortisation £0.125m Less- Covid £1.36m Less- Community Expenditure £1,543,248 Less- Women's Team Quick figure-£3.287m Plus whatever for the Academy 2022-23 Less- Community Expenditure £1,791,691 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) The Leicester loophole is set to be shut.. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-13170707/AHEAD-GAME-Premier-League-EFL-close-loophole-spending-rules-exploited-Leicester-flight-clubs-braced-row-independent-regulator.html My reading of the Regulations is that the Accounts should have been submitted by 31st December to the EFL in any event. It expressly says (or, in the event the Club is relegated following the relevant Season, to the EFL) Unless it is the gap between 'T' in EFL parlance being the existing season, PL the prior. Plus. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) Just shows what @AnAstonVillafan said a while ago, a lot of PL fans don't grasp FFP or perhaps how it can apply to them. Or haven't anyway until Everton docked and latterly-6 upheld. A strange sort of mitigation. £15m on Faes albeit with Fofana and Schmeichel, then Souttar £15m, Kristansen £12m and Tete loan in January. Perez and Albrighton loaned out of course. Granted Maddison sold in late June, but this, it reads a bit like Moshiri and his whole 'non-existent midfield' shtick. You can argue that 2022-23 loss was lower than 2021-22 which I'm sure it was but..if they've breached then they needed to do more. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derby_Ram Posted March 8 Report Share Posted March 8 The one you've all been waiting for (besides everyone else in a mess) https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2024/03/derby-county-football-club-financial-results-year-ending-june-2023 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) Red letter day. First Accounts since season 2017-18, released in late March 2019 in the public domain. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) Hmm ha some don't fully get it. A).How do you sell a Player whose contract expires in the summer. B) Small thing called Book Value. Selling is one thing. A) Vestegaard, Ndidi, Ihenacho all seemingly out of contract. No profit there. B) Book Value (barring Impairment). Souttar- £10.9m Kristiansen- £8.72m Soumare- £6.8m Daka- £9.2m KDH is obviously the big one. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) They talk about the sales plus Interest Payments falling and rightly so but what we know for a fact.. A) £129.824m in Broadcasting Rights in 2021-22 became £114m last year. PL at least. B) Euroepan money was £21.513m in 2021-22. They weren't in Europe last year so maybe some modest Solidarity Payments at most. C) Overall Revenue in 2021-22 £214.59m. Plus £0.7m in Other Operating Income, £0.421m in Interest Receivable. By way of comparison they didn't hit the top 30 in Deloitte Money League 2022-23 out in January, which came to Everton in 30th- €198m, aka £168.75m. My original estimate was a £20-50m fall in Revenue between 2021-22 and 2022-23. It feels like it could be in that ballpark. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 Couple of interesting items in Derby's accounts. I should add it is 13 months so seems to be June 1st 2022 to June 30th 2023? Albeit given their Accounting Period ran until the end of June before and the takeover similar?? Their football wage ratio to total wages is very low, unprecedented actually. Firstly ignore Impairment of Goodwill. Overall Coat base both a bit high fit League One and yet a bit low for a club with a modern Ground, Training Ground, a Category One Academy etc. Clowes seems to have out in £36m but how much of that was a one off need? Impairment of Goodwill just like all of the top line are non-cash expenses or Credits. The Wage bill is interesting, not least when you read the cited breakdown. Only 36% of Turnover is on Player Wages apparently...yet with 89 Playing staff vs 118 non-Playing staff?? It is usually a minimum of 70-80% of remuneration goes on the Football side but BBC Derby among others implies something else. https://www.derbycounty.news/news/derby-countys-new-financial-accounts-explained-with-david-clowes-investment/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 (edited) I remember this, it aged well https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/journalist-makes-confident-financial-fair-play-prediction-involving-leicester-city/ Leicester journalists have been genuinely supine until an issue emerged. They're supposed to be professional Journalists not PR. Don't think Tanner gave it much analysis either, Percy? Not having a dig, question in good faith @BristolFox Should Blackwell especially have been more probing earlier? Tanner? Percy is more of a general Midlands but then again he is very good. I suppose they have to some degree, report what they're told where as those on forums can extrapolate. I thought Kieran Maguire or Swiss Ramble may have had a look and extrapolation however. Edited March 8 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 8 Author Report Share Posted March 8 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/03/08/leicester-points-deduction-premier-league-return-spending/ Certainly if anyone goes up in breach they need the book throwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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