Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) Aston Villa, we can put a bit of detail to the headline numbers now. As we can see: *£120.309m pre tax loss! Despite and inclusive of £22.462m in Profit on Disposal of Players. *£26.887m to knock off the Pre Tax Loss, that being the PSR figure. *Still £228.778m to Amortise at end of May 2023. Not including the acquisitions in summer 2023 and January 2024. Simplest (ha!) way to work put the last point is add all of the contract length then divide by the number of players who cost a fee. If anyone would.. Then start subdividing from there. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) What some Aston Villa fans also possibly don't appreciate is the fact that selling players is one thing, their Book Value is something else entirely Gotta find a willing buyer and a club they are willing to go to. Then there maybe sell-on clauses to consider, these also eat into the Gross Fee and even the Profit. One thing that is interesting is that eg Ramsey and Archer may have mandatory buyback clauses if the clubs relegated. They had a zero Book Value as an internally generated asset but surely re-acquiring them would add a Book Value. Sure you can flip them but there is indeed a Book Value to consider. Ramsey and Archer will have a Book Value at Burnley and Sheffield United ie their Purchase Price and surely re-adding at a set fee if conditions met wouldn't mean they have zero Book Value back at Aston Villa again? Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) It'll be interesting to see because some of them overestimate the CL revenue uplift and I don't know if they are looking net or gross as between times there would've been the Europa Conference League revenue..a straight line would he could counting some of that. CL isn't a straight £60m though, there are multiple variable factors at play. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: What some Aston Villa fans also possibly don't appreciate is the fact that selling players is one thing, their Book Value is something else entirely Gotta find a willing buyer and a club they are willing to go to. Then there maybe sell-on clauses to consider, these also eat into the Gross Fee and even the Profit. One thing that is interesting is that eg Ramsey and Archer may have mandatory buyback clauses if the clubs relegated. They had a zero Book Value as an internally generated asset but surely re-acquiring them would add a Book Value. Sure you can flip them but there is indeed a Book Value to consider. Ramsey and Archer will have a Book Value at Burnley and Sheffield United ie their Purchase Price and surely re-adding at a set fee if conditions met wouldn't mean they have zero Book Value back at Aston Villa again? Are you suggesting that if Villa resigned Archer for £x million, he would do on the books at £0? Whatever fee Villa pay to re-sign him would be amortised like any other transfer fee. It makes no odds he was £zero when initially sold. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Are you suggesting that if Villa resigned Archer for £x million, he would do on the books at £0? Whatever fee Villa pay to re-sign him would be amortised like any other transfer fee. It makes no odds he was £zero when initially sold. I do agree. Yeah would be irregular if it was anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View from the Dolman Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 FFP: the stuff of £££ dreams for lawyers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 Well well..that is Sounds like they could breach to THIS season?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 https://www.skysports.com/football/video/30998/13088667/explained-how-efl-plan-financial-rule-change-to-close-leicester-loophole Looks like they are planning to tighten up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 What is it about Midlands clubs and FFP eh. Absolutely the worst per capita for it and the special pleading, outside Man City and their mass of charges of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 They've also been awarded 11 that's eleven penalties in the League Leicester so I hardly think they can moan about officiating but moan they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) I knew it. Knew they had a big issue to this season..the maths didn't stack as to the £83m Upper Loss Limit. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 And quickly scanning the report, they’ve avoided having to submit a business plan, so we won’t know the full extent of their overspend until after the season is decided. Is that correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W-S-M Seagull Posted March 6 Report Share Posted March 6 55 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Well well..that is Sounds like they could breach to THIS season?? You know what my thoughts are going to be on this I'm sure. They've basically cheated their way to promotion and therefore gaining the riches of the premier league. Do we lose 1 nil there if they had complied with ffp? Who knows. Something needs to be done about this. Clubs can cheat their way to promotion and then just take the hit in the premier league and still stay up even with that hit. It feels like cheating gets rewarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 12 minutes ago, Davefevs said: And quickly scanning the report, they’ve avoided having to submit a business plan, so we won’t know the full extent of their overspend until after the season is decided. Is that correct? 6 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said: You know what my thoughts are going to be on this I'm sure. They've basically cheated their way to promotion and therefore gaining the riches of the premier league. Do we lose 1 nil there if they had complied with ffp? Who knows. Something needs to be done about this. Clubs can cheat their way to promotion and then just take the hit in the premier league and still stay up even with that hit. It feels like cheating gets rewarded. Difficult to say isn't it. They still have to submit their P&S Projections for this year, this month ie now aligned with the last 2 Actual. They certainly seemed unable to add in January..the FFI would be the upcoming forecast for this year and how they would put it right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) *Someone* challenged Arlo White on Twitter in late December. He did not respond, when he defended Leicester and their record of sales in the first instance. He isn't a specific Leicester journo but used to be on 5Live and is a Leicester fan. Their local journalists have been pathetic from what I can gather. Clearly for months a potential issue yet bullish and blase. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 Will try to find it later, Twitter seems to be an issue atm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) EFL need to go hard on this case. I reiterate my past view, had we refused to sell Semenyo last January perhaps we would have been in trouble during the season itself. However there is still uncertainty either way. Bit of PL-centric special pleading and whataboutery? Or they just don't get it. Strange take.. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 6 Author Report Share Posted March 6 (edited) We have potentially these coming down the pipe, or close calls.. clubs with bigger incomes and often higher loss limits. Everton- £105m Wolves- £105m Leicester- £83m Nottingham Forest- £61m Possibly Aston Villa, £105m.. All bigger clubs, most higher limits. However Bournemouth at £72m to 2022 and 2023 and not necessarily major add-backs or non TV income streams, no huge sales since 2020-21 or 2021-22, cruise through fine at all times?? Leeds Adams this year, Phillips and Raphinia last to 2022-23, £88.5m. If someone can explain this..? All of the above have made varied sales at varied times. Bournemouth sacked 2 managers and paid compensation for a 3rd but on they cruise seemingly compliant at all times. Edited March 6 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Watching the EFL highlights and pulled out 2 paragraphs of interest. Leicester could well breach the £83m Adjusted Upper Loss Limit this March. In effect it can align FFI to direct or assist clubs with compliance with their obligations. Hence the T+1 and even T+2. FFI=Future Financial Information and kicks in if a club lose in excess of £15m in 3 seasons after Allowables. However it seems not to apply to those Promoted from League One or Relegated from the PL. In layman's, it meant that Leicester could spend and trade as they did in the summer. Maybe it was different come January as Maresca was adamant nobody could come in without sales. Not loans out, not frees but sale(s). Then.. I've vigorously queried whether clubs are treated equally in the recent past. Seems that my view was more about same division plus potentially Fulham 2 seasons ago. That seems very, very odd however. Given that P&S was introduced at the behest of the PL, the clearly harmonised rules that I found this week in both Handbooks. In other words Leicester e.g. could sign who they did in summer 2023 as the CFRU couldn't impose a Business Plan on Relegation. However there is a Call-in Review and surely the League should receive P&S and actual Accounts, indeed should've gone on 1st March. I wonder what this bit of the Leicester statement means. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Arlo White, for it is he of 5Live fame. Some Professional journalist he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Ha but they are a tight budget club apparently or so some say. I remember them spending relatively big under Lerner, going for it somewhat under Xia and pouring cash in under the current owners. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 Although if this goes through.. https://www.caughtoffside.com/2024/03/06/leicester-citys-victor-kristiansen-on-verge-of-exit-to-bologna/ Perhaps it swings back in fscoir of Leicester and the £83m. Loan with option. €15m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Great tweet and lovely viz-work from the Villa fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 I believe the Tweet is by a Sunderland fan who also posts about football finance. Either way I do like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 Not Championship FFP, but for those interested this Tax Tribunal case gives some details on a 'typical' player contract. NIASSE v Revenue & Customs (INCOME TAX - employment income - payments of agency fees made on behalf of professional footballer to agent) [2024] UKFTT 179 (TC) (28 February 2024) (bailii.org) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Possibly being a tad obtuse here but surely Leicester need to still along with the others submit their P&S returns at the start of March as well as their Accounts, even if the FFI element wasn't foreseeable? Posted it last night but is this bit of the statement by Leicester interesting? EFL should give no quarter perhaps. If there is an issue I hope Clubs squeeze them in the market up against a ticking clock of the end of June. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 30 minutes ago, Hxj said: Not Championship FFP, but for those interested this Tax Tribunal case gives some details on a 'typical' player contract. NIASSE v Revenue & Customs (INCOME TAX - employment income - payments of agency fees made on behalf of professional footballer to agent) [2024] UKFTT 179 (TC) (28 February 2024) (bailii.org) Got the skill to (NOT) pay the bills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) Quick skimread of an article in The Athetic. This Hearing is either an Appeal of Verdict 1 or maybe it is the In-season stuff?? https://archive.is/2024.03.07-090157/https://theathletic.com/5321912/2024/03/07/leicester-ffp-profit-loss-efl/ Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted March 7 Report Share Posted March 7 All p 18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: this bit of the statement by Leicester interesting? A settlement with the EFL and a points deduction in 2023/24 season may well be more beneficial for Leicester City than a points deduction in 2024/25 is my reading. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 7 Author Report Share Posted March 7 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hxj said: All p A settlement with the EFL and a points deduction in 2023/24 season may well be more beneficial for Leicester City than a points deduction in 2024/25 is my reading. Agreed Decisions are always less aren't they. Second Hearing is referenced, quite why they would only get a fine if Promoted in breach is beyond me but Athletic article seemed to imply..well established in both divisions now that a points deduction is the only way. Crowing Leicester fans seem to have missed the bit about a potential further Hearing. Edited March 7 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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