The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Packman]

I was under the impression that Pearson dramatically reduced the wage bill? According to the figures it was basically the same as the year before or am I reading it wrong?

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, Packman said:

I was under the impression that Pearson dramatically reduced the wage bill? According to the figures it was basically the same as the year before or am I reading it wrong?

Without the Accounts for Bristol City FC, Ashton Gate Limited and Bristol City Ladies there are still bits that are hard to piece together.

The first one is key, the second saw more Events so may have increased too and the third saw Promotion and a Wage Bill pushing towards £1m in the 13 months to 2022-23. I assume the Wage Bill might have increase for the Top Flight.

That will be included in the Consolidator, excluded from FFP that third bit.

In respect of some other bits, I'd have thought that cost of Termination ie sacking NP and his team as well as new Wages for Manning etc would be included in the Accounts and maybe the Cost of Alexander going would be included. Some clubs lay out this stuff in separate categories.

6 month Accounts would be really useful but we aren't listed on a Stock Exchange. 

What we dont know is the Cost of Twine and Mbeude 6 month Loans- post NP of course.

All I know is the FC Wage Bill was around £30m in 2020-21 and now it is probably 15-20% less and maybe a greater reduction. The Amortisation Bill has also drastically reduced.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Mr Popodopolous @Davefevs

What absolute bizarre timing 

Annual Accounts 2023/24 - Bristol City FC

 

I’m claiming it!

[RollsRoyce]

33 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Without the Accounts for Bristol City FC, Ashton Gate Limited and Bristol City Ladies there are still bits that are hard to piece together.

The first one is key, the second saw more Events so may have increased too and the third saw Promotion and a Wage Bill pushing towards £1m in the 13 months to 2022-23. I assume the Wage Bill might have increase for the Top Flight.

That will be included in the Consolidator, excluded from FFP that third bit.

In respect of some other bits, I'd have thought that cost of Termination ie sacking NP and his team as well as new Wages for Manning etc would be included in the Accounts and maybe the Cost of Alexander going would be included. Some clubs lay out this stuff in separate categories.

6 month Accounts would be really useful but we aren't listed on a Stock Exchange. 

What we dont know is the Cost of Twine and Mbeude 6 month Loans- post NP of course.

All I know is the FC Wage Bill was around £30m in 2020-21 and now it is probably 15-20% less and maybe a greater reduction. The Amortisation Bill has also drastically reduced.

The playing part of the wage bill is lost in overall wage bill , without that you cannot understand the impact of squad reduction size/wages ( from the Palmer/kalas ) highs. 
equally turnover , does not stack up as a headline number ( tv deal same for all clubs , ticket sales easy to compare to others ) , hospitality has certainly grown as has non football events . But the turnover does not match unless you are selling ( cost transfer ) between entities . But then that should be highlighted as inter company. Mystery. 
The accounts are not made up for clarity of understanding what is going on and neither do they need to be . 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, RollsRoyce said:

The playing part of the wage bill is lost in overall wage bill , without that you cannot understand the impact of squad reduction size/wages ( from the Palmer/kalas ) highs. 
equally turnover , does not stack up as a headline number ( tv deal same for all clubs , ticket sales easy to compare to others ) , hospitality has certainly grown as has non football events . But the turnover does not match unless you are selling ( cost transfer ) between entities . But then that should be highlighted as inter company. Mystery. 
The accounts are not made up for clarity of understanding what is going on and neither do they need to be . 

Our Commercial Income is one of the top in the Division and this is pivotal to our position as one of the top Non Parachute Clubs.

It is lost, that's why we need the 3 or 4 individual parts to get a better handle on it IMO. We have the (non-trading) Consolidator.

        BCFC Holdings Limited

                      

          AGL BCFC Limited

                      

                   Bristol City Women

I feel I'm missing something in terms of your analysis though?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Our Commercial Income is one of the top in the Division and this is pivotal to our position as one of the top Non Parachute Clubs.

It is lost, that's why we need the 3 or 4 individual parts to get a better handle on it IMO. We have the (non-trading) Consolidator.

        BCFC Holdings Limited

                      

          AGL BCFC Limited

                      

                   Bristol City Women

I feel I'm missing something in terms of your analysis though?

When you see the individual AG Ltd and BCFC Ltd accounts you’ll see they don’t add up to BCH Ltd, because of transfer pricing between entities.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

When you see the individual AG Ltd and BCFC Ltd accounts you’ll see they don’t add up to BCH Ltd, because of transfer pricing between entities.  

Do you mean for Revenue, Costs or both? I noticed a bit of a gap the other year.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Do you mean for Revenue, Costs or both? I noticed a bit of a gap the other year.

Both

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Both

Yep, this is the closest I could find but it probably doesn't solve it, also @RollsRoyce

Edited December 30, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yep, this is the closest I could find but it probably doesn't solve it, also @RollsRoyce

None of that adds up / totals the differences either!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

None of that adds up / totals the differences either!

I agree, on this bit more questions than answers so far!

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, NcnsBcfc said:

@Mr Popodopolous @Davefevs @Hxj

I've always thought it a bit strange that the Lansdowns have never actually sponsored the training ground or Ashton Gate.

Isn't that a way of financing that would be more beneficial to the club's financial position than just writing out cheques at the end of each season?

Apologies missed this one but my take fwiw, not.

It may all help, but the Naming Rights have to be Fair Value, fairly subjective but probably in and around the Industry/comparative norm..A few million perhaps whereas SL converts 8 figures to equity per year..£13m most recently and more in the past.

There's nothing to stop them from doing that should they so choose, in fact I've advocated it in recent times that maybe you could set up Commercial Partnerships that are mutually beneficial between the Club/wider Bristol Sport and some of the overseas or Guernsey Business interests- at Fair Value of course.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

The figures won't appear to balance for a number of reasons.

Firstly the 'intra-group' consolidation.  For example any rental income paid by 'The Football' to 'The Stadium' will appear in the individual accounts of 'The Football' (expense) and 'The Stadium' (income).  When consolidated into 'Holdings' both entries disappear.

Secondly 'Related Parties' is wider than the group headed by 'Holdings', it will include entities such as 'The Rugby', which is under common control, but isn't actually part of the group.  So rent paid by 'The Rugby' ti ;The Stadium; appears in the 'Related Parties' note, but is not consolidated out.

There are potentially others.

My biggest concern is the failure to reduce the overall cost base.  Ignoring 'Player Trading' the figures are broadly flat.  Despite what is said I doubt that replacing the 'Pearson Team' with the 'Manning Team' had such a big impact.  The 'Pearson Team' would have been at or near the end of contract on 30 June 2024, so the additional costs of terminating would be relatively low.  I also doubt that acquiring the 'Manning Team' from Oxford would have been hugely expensive.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

The figures won't appear to balance for a number of reasons.

Firstly the 'intra-group' consolidation.  For example any rental income paid by 'The Football' to 'The Stadium' will appear in the individual accounts of 'The Football' (expense) and 'The Stadium' (income).  When consolidated into 'Holdings' both entries disappear.

Secondly 'Related Parties' is wider than the group headed by 'Holdings', it will include entities such as 'The Rugby', which is under common control, but isn't actually part of the group.  So rent paid by 'The Rugby' ti ;The Stadium; appears in the 'Related Parties' note, but is not consolidated out.

There are potentially others.

My biggest concern is the failure to reduce the overall cost base.  Ignoring 'Player Trading' the figures are broadly flat.  Despite what is said I doubt that replacing the 'Pearson Team' with the 'Manning Team' had such a big impact.  The 'Pearson Team' would have been at or near the end of contract on 30 June 2024, so the additional costs of terminating would be relatively low.  I also doubt that acquiring the 'Manning Team' from Oxford would have been hugely expensive.

 

What about the departure of Phil Alexander? That's a big unknown.

It all can add up..In isolation no hut mg bunch is including the Women's Team £23-25m on Club Wage Bill, possibly also including the Costs of Managerial and Alexander changes.

[Hxj]

31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In isolation no hut mg bunch is including the Women's Team £23-25m on Club Wage Bill

@Mr Popodopolous Your Christmas seems to be going well 

I'd ignored Alexander, assume he was on three months notice, so no real impact.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Hxj said:

@Mr Popodopolous Your Christmas seems to be going well 

I'd ignored Alexander, assume he was on three months notice, so no real impact.

 

 

I really hate Predictive Text @Hxj makes churning out messages easier and yet! 

Not material no, but between them perhaps the little things added £1-2m? Like Management Chance, Alexander, Twine and Mbeude joined January so 6 monthsish wages apiece.

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Hxj said:

@Mr Popodopolous Your Christmas seems to be going well 

I'd ignored Alexander, assume he was on three months notice, so no real impact.

 

 

That bottle of sherry has lasted a while hasn’t it!  Must be just fumes now!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Today is the Deadline to submit numbers to the PL and indeed the EFL in a new addition which I've highlighted periodically.

PL. There are suggestions that any or all of Chelsea, Everton, Leicester and Nottingham Forest could be found in breach of Spending Rules..ie Loss Limits to last season.

I would ask though, what of Bournemouth?? What of Bournemouth- £83m Permitted Upper Loss, no major Allowables and spent loads, as Nottingham Forest found out Promotion Bonuses not exempt...-£55.5m Pre Tax in 2021-22.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

If a £70m or so post Takeover Debt Writeoff Income counted to offset Losses then more than fine but that would be a farce...

[Davefevs]

Pompey:

https://www.portsmouthfc.co.uk/news/2024/december/30/statement-of-accounts/

[Mr Popodopolous]

Kieran's take.. looks relatively sensible ship run by Portsmouth.

Will include Promotion Bonuses but Costs like Revenue- expect TV Revenue alone to rise to the Championship including Solidarity norm of £11-12m.

[Mr Popodopolous]

In respect of the updated Regs or some pertinent bits I've posted about them before but 31st December 2024 never used to be an Internal deadline for this season.

In theory if a Club are set to breach by March, could the CFRU put them on notice in January?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Checkpoints seem to be as follows...

1) 1st March, 2 Years Actual and present years Forecast Annual Accounts.

*1a) If applicable, 31st March the following 2 Years Predicted Adjusted Earnings Before Tax.

2) 30th June, Updated Forecast Annual Accounts.

3) 31st December- Actual Accounts for prior 2 Years??

*-If 2 Year Actual and 1 year Forecast after Allowables above £15m, but below £39m then next 2 Years Forecast.

The aim I guess is in part to prevent breaches before they occur.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Leicester certainly seem to be at risk of a fail to 2023-24.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jan/01/leicester-at-risk-of-another-premier-league-psr-charge-over-latest-accounts

Not a major shock but again I ask what of Bournemouth.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bet365 Accounts have come to Companies House but not yet..probably available to view within the next few days.

Stoke are to some level included within these albeit 2 months of 2022-23 and 10 of 2023-24..extrapolate.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw a couple of interesting lines the other day.

This is very much a factor, the CFRU assess in real time in January and consistently. I don't know how much FootBiz costs but it seems Clubs in the Championship do need the Green Light which is good in theory as it should prevent breaches before they occur.

Was in a bit on a Leeds page linking them with Ben Sheaf.

Edited January 4 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Also. Coventry may need to sell to stay on track with FFP forecasts, which surprises me a bit given the major sales in 2023-24 and a lowish loss in 2022-23..would've thought next season or especially once Hamer and Gykores Profit disappears.

Just how much have they spent.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We should be able to find out up to 10 months of Stoke last year, to extrapolate but it is taking sometime to upload.

Perhaps they've submitted in paper form, perhaps they're still on holiday at CH- Christmas backlog anyway.

Often it uploads the following day.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Been looking into Bournemouth too via their ultimate Parent Cannae Holdings in USA.

Takes a lot of finding but they seem to lose a LOT of money since their takeover and losr £55m pre Tax in their 2021-22 season..

If the £70m or so debt write-off/settlement was classed as permissible under FFP as Income to offset losses then okay but beyond that?? Cannae runs in a full calendar year and they are quite selective in bits they publish, you have to dig into quarterly filings and the like.

Is in US$ too so needle in a haystack territory but they seem to lose a LOT of money without consequences! 

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

If anyone is keen to try and unpick the lock..they also have a minority interest in Hibernian ie Black Knight Football and something with Lorient.

https://www.cannaeholdings.com/financial-information/sec-filings

A 19% rise in Income was stated but sure Costs have risen quite a bit.

Yea happy analysing anyone! 

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Remember this is 10 and 2 so TV distribution timing or sponsorship maybe an issue but extrapolating a £20-25m Pre Tax Loss for Stoke feels quite possible.

That is some rise in Administrative Expenses??

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

However their fans on Twitter some of them assured me in the Summer that they have/had several £10m midfielders so they can if needs be trade their way upwards..

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Chairman Mao]

Anyone have any stats on player wage inflation. Since 1st Jan 2020 inflation has been 24% over the time period. So if football wages track that, then not only have you seen a 10-15% decrease in the nominal wage bill, but a much more significant decrease in the real terms wage bill. 

Edited January 6 by Chairman Mao

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Chairman Mao said:

Anyone have any stats on player wage inflation. Since 1st Jan 2020 inflation has been 24% over the time period. So if football wages track that, then not only have you seen a 10-15% decrease in the nominal wage bill, but a much more significant decrease in the real terms wage bill. 

Football Player/Manager contracts aren't generally Inflation Linked but they can be if parties agree.

It is hard to say as without 6 month Accounts (generally only for Clubs on Stock Exchanges). we don't know, but at the same time maybe from the Accounts for 2019-20 a useful starting point ie up to May 2020.

It is also difficult as there are two component parts, the FC and the Ashton Gate Limited.

Minimum/Living Wage might cover some in the latter and this has risen somewhat since Spring 2020...there are lots of moving parts but the Total Consolidated Wage Bill hasn't risen 24% since 2019-20 and the Football side most certainly won't have.

Some Clubs will be higher, some lower, Football feels somewhat untethered from the wider economy in certain aspects.

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

The starting point is a $100-105m loss for Bournemouth last season based on the trying to piece together Quarterly fillings??

Or Black Knight Football and Entertainment anyway. Seem to have a minority stake in Lorient and Hibernian. There was talk of a 76% Rise in Wages Year on Year in the 9 months to March 31st 2024 from the prior Period??

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Bournemouth

I remember how we signed Pitman from them, how times change.

They seem to lose a LOT of money without tangible consequences though which is weird.

BKFE seemed to lose $3.7m in the 3 months to end of September 2023.

Seemed to lose $31.9m in the 3 months to end of December 2023.

Seemed to lose $37.7m in the 3 months to end of March 2024.

Seemed to lose $30.8m in the 3 months to end of June 2024.

Edited January 6 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unsure how this segment which at least shows some comparable Income, accounts for the Solanke sale either.

[Rob26]

On 04/01/2025 at 10:27, Mr Popodopolous said:

Saw a couple of interesting lines the other day.

This is very much a factor, the CFRU assess in real time in January and consistently. I don't know how much FootBiz costs but it seems Clubs in the Championship do need the Green Light which is good in theory as it should prevent breaches before they occur.

Was in a bit on a Leeds page linking them with Ben Sheaf.

maybe its just me, but surely you would know from your accountants if your club was in the clear to spend more (and know how much) without waiting for the EFL to confirm this? Surely the EFL don't stop anyone spending unless they are flagged for an embargo so they are not stopping clubs from doing business.

if your accounts are full of skull duggery trying to get there than I can understand the concerns and wanting to rush the EFL to certify your BS to hide your breach, but should be on the clubs to track this themselves and the leagues to assess afterwards if they broke the rules.

be interesting to see which clubs are complaining, I imagine its ones who are pushing and/or exceeding the limits 

kinda tells me a lot about the clubs I suspect are the ones complaining, they are most likley the ones trying it on and to know they have got away with things. All clubs have access to sporting accountants and legal teams, they can get a good idea from a third party if they can spend money or not if they don't know themselves rather than putting it on the league assessing things in due course.

if the CFRU takes too long then follow the rules properly yourself, you are likley not going to have a problem unless your trying to work through loop holes rather than stick to the rules

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

maybe its just me, but surely you would know from your accountants if your club was in the clear to spend more (and know how much) without waiting for the EFL to confirm this? Surely the EFL don't stop anyone spending unless they are flagged for an embargo so they are not stopping clubs from doing business.

if your accounts are full of skull duggery trying to get there than I can understand the concerns and wanting to rush the EFL to certify your BS to hide your breach, but should be on the clubs to track this themselves and the leagues to assess afterwards if they broke the rules.

be interesting to see which clubs are complaining, I imagine its ones who are pushing and/or exceeding the limits 

kinda tells me a lot about the clubs I suspect are the ones complaining, they are most likley the ones trying it on and to know they have got away with things. All clubs have access to sporting accountants and legal teams, they can get a good idea from a third party if they can spend money or not if they don't know themselves rather than putting it on the league assessing things in due course.

if the CFRU takes too long then follow the rules properly yourself, you are likley not going to have a problem unless your trying to work through loop holes rather than stick to the rules

Oh they can, last January I recall Reports pertaining to Cardiff, Cardiff said as much and Birmingham may have been in regular contact too. Think these were borderline albeit there are now multiple checkpoints.

Think an idea behind it was to prevent breaches before they occur, the In-season suspended deduction based on the Business Plan 2 years back being activated was a landmark case. As was LCFC v EFL a year ago, albeit the Rules have since changed to cover that..

West Brom being under a Business Plan or working with the EFL to prevent also a Landmark Case. Clubs voted in the CFRU, CFRP unanimously in February 2022 around the same time as varied Covid Add-Backs and amendments.

The past, present and future info all feeds in or can do 

Agree fully on last paragraph, stay Green rather than Amber and you won't have an issue. Sticking clearly within limits at all times is the best remedy.

Checkpoints

March 1st- Submit 2 years actual P&S and present year Forecast...if this exceeds £15m but is below Relevant Upper Limit following usual deductions.. 

March 31st- The following year and the year after that P&S Forecasts, must not exceed Upper Limits. Intervention on various levels can arise if so.

June 30th- Updated Forecast Annual Accounts ie the March Predictions. Also some variations for clubs exiting and entering the division at either end.

December 31st- Accounts for prior season to EFL. Again variations in format possible and FFI depending on divisional status, ie Birmgham, Huddersfield and Rotherham will submit did submit as well as the Leicester, Ipswich and Southampton.

This means that failing in March more possible, perhaps a Club could even be tasked with offloading in January to avoid Sanctions in the Spring.

Edited January 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Forecast Annual Accounts now has a specific definition too, as does Loss Limit Requirement and there is something about Relevant Period etc.

These changes are rather at odds with Birmingham fans crowing that Relegation exempts from 3 Years...Sounds a logistical issue to say the least but submitting your Accounts after Relegation to League One by 31st December to the EFL/CFRU is new.

Likewise submitting on return from League One and varied other info by 30th June is also new..given it is in a Format as Prescribed by League.

Edited January 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Hxj]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They seem to lose a LOT of money without tangible consequences though which is weird.

The US group accounts will be unhelpful in establishing the losses of a UK company to the appropriate UK accounting standard, it will be a lot clearer when the UK entity accounts are available.

Black Knight now also includes other football investments.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The US group accounts will be unhelpful in establishing the losses of a UK company to the appropriate UK accounting standard, it will be a lot clearer when the UK entity accounts are available.

Black Knight now also includes other football investments.

It does, Hibs and Lorient or stakes in.

Yeah UK is key but that £71m debt Writeoff post Takeover as Exceptional Income put through feels decisive one way or the other.

With it allowed is an £11mish Pre Tax Loss.

Without it? £82-83m Pre Tax Loss.

That's across 2021-22, 2022-23.

Edited January 7 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

In your expert view @Hxj Should this be permitted under PSR? My gut feeling is that it is material to their compliance to 2023-24 and maybe even could impact 2024-25.

Oh talking of which the amount of equity in there since late 2022??

Bournemouth and the Item

This surely makes a mockery of PSR Rules no if allowed to offset losses and enable further expenditure? I estimate a large PSR Hole if it isn't permitted.

Edited January 8 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

What’s the issue in layman’s terms?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Forget it, I'll try and layman's it..I need to get better at that.

Edited January 9 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

The starting point is $100-105m Pre Tax Loss in 2023-24 ie US$ albeit before subtracting Lorient and Hibs share..as per Cannae Holdings and it took some piecing together.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Essentially in the most layman's, they've been spending like water until they sold Solanke, lots of clubs with higher Incomes have been squeezed horribly by comparison and should this debt cancellation to old owner by new owner on Takeover be included in FFP returns?

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Essentially in the most layman's, they've been spending like water until they sold Solanke, lots of clubs with higher Incomes have been squeezed horribly by comparison and should this debt cancellation to old owner by new owner on Takeover be included in FFP returns?

Is it though?  That’s what I’m asking….the p&l above isn’t including it, surely the £140m turnover is just bog standard Premier League revenue.  They haven’t added £89m to it?  Have they?

Edited January 9 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Is it though?  That’s what I’m asking….the p&l above isn’t including it, surely the £140m turnover is just bog standard Premier League revenue.  They haven’t added £89m to it?  Have they?

Presumably £71mish is the Net figure.

It is hard to say. IMO anyway.

£140.963m Income plus £2mish Other Operating Income (Loan Fees)..

Total Cost Base before we get to Net Interest is £164.290m.

They seem to have included it as Exceptional Income the £71m hence the £44.495m Pre Tax Profit reported but FFP should exclude it no?

Essentially the Net Headroom gained or lost by it in any Period that includes 2022-23 is £71.444m- a huge swing either way.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Tomorrow? Or more days to upload.

They released them in January 2024 for 2022-23, so it is relatively consistent.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Parent company of Birmingham and Birmgham City Stadium Limited- Shelby Companies, seem to have quietly extended the CH due date by 3 months.

Was due by Monday.. now much later.

Usually 9 months following incorporation, it will cover 10 months of 2023-24 and 2 months and 18 or 19 days of 2022-23. (April 12th 2023 June 30th 2023 then to April 30th 2024).

Edited Friday at 12:00 by Mr Popodopolous

[Rob26]

20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Tomorrow? Or more days to upload.

They released them in January 2024 for 2022-23, so it is relatively consistent.

let us know where you think we at spreadsheet crew  just popped on to let you know it had been posted up.

I imagine its one of the easier ones to do tbh as doubt there is any fiddling going on

[Mr Popodopolous]

41 minutes ago, Rob26 said:

let us know where you think we at spreadsheet crew  just popped on to let you know it had been posted up.

I imagine its one of the easier ones to do tbh as doubt there is any fiddling going on

Still eagerly awaiting!

Probably £7-8m per year in FFP Allowances, maybe I'm underestimating...doubt there are any FFP fiddles.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Middlesbrough Accounts out.

Fell into the £10-15m Pre Tax Loss as I thought it might.

Income up a bit, Costs likewise.

Cost Base North of £60m+!! Their Wage Bill is £32m but ours has maybe 1/3 or 40% as Ashton Gate Limited..the flipside to the high Commercial Revenue.

Well clear of FFP, albeit the underlying Costs vs Revenue is -£30mish.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Middlesbrough Accounts out.

Fell into the £10-15m Pre Tax Loss as I thought it might.

Income up a bit, Costs likewise.

Cost Base North of £60m+!! Their Wage Bill is £32m but ours has maybe 1/3 or 40% as Ashton Gate Limited..the flipside to the high Commercial Revenue.

Well clear of FFP, albeit the underlying Costs vs Revenue is -£30mish.

Where are these posted Mr P, they aren’t on CH yet?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Where are these posted Mr P, they aren’t on CH yet?

Seems to have arisen recently, Dave. 

The parent seems to be dormant, so I assume this is the Topco for P&S.

[Davefevs]

Ya, checked an hour ago, they weren’t there!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'll add a quick bit, if Middlesbrough don't go up this'll need to likely based on these and a lack of sales surely sell at least one key asset for FFP present and future etc.owned by them the 3 stars are perhaps Van De Berg, Hackney, Latte-Lath and maybe more- Azaz or still to grow?

Conway wouldn't be off after a year surely.

Edited Friday at 20:36 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

One more thing, given Leicester could yet be in trouble to 2023-24, maybe 2022-23 of they drop, who knows beyond etc, this note in their Accounts..looks like all parties got it wrong!

If they were Regulated by the PL for 2022-23..then that Verdict was very odd! Which meant the EFL could've caught them in Summer 2023!

It seems that the correct body as it stands is..based on the Summer 2024 Appeal.

*Period ending 2022-23- EFL.

*Period ending 2023-24- PL.

*Period ending 2024-25?? If they go down, EFL, if not PL.

If Relegation occurred this year, then Rules such as they are could mean they have to demonstrate compliance tying in FFI to 2025-26 upon entering the League and even maybe 2026-27 as well as show compliance to 2024-25 obviously.

As for Loss Limits..

*School of thought they would be £105m to 2023-24 ad the PL meaning of T differs but £83m to this year..

*Otoh if an EFL Club by 2022-23 then T-1 could easily constitute £13m even though they played in the PL and £35m in Championship.

*Might be able to lose a month of PL losses when assessed by PL as well as include Fixed Asset Sales but no reset of individual Upper Years but.. 

*...Cannot include Fixed Asset Sales in EFL, or lose a month of heavy losses but the reset of individual Upper Loss Limits kicks in Post Breach.

Edited Saturday at 00:25 by Mr Popodopolous

[fgrsimon]

Bournemouth don't make sense on so many levels! I don't understand how Newcastle and Villa for example can be under pressure but not them? Home attendances of what 11,000? no major events at the ground that I'm aware of.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Yep big time.

The bit that gets me is that the £71m bit is decisive to 2024 quite possibly and nobody even talks about it- is it just a given that it offsets the losses or? I reiterate the Cash Losses or Equity Injections have become huge.

[Mr Popodopolous]

PL will issue PSR Breach updates tomorrow.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The much heralded new Championship P&S Regs still dragging and dragging on..SL spoke of them a while ago, Gould in early 2022.

From The Athletic, Matt Slater.

https://archive.is/2025.01.11-062335/https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6049650/2025/01/11/leicester-psr-loophole-wrexham-europe/

[Mr Popodopolous]

What Leicester fans seem not to get, well couple of bits.

1) Fixed Asset Sales don't count to offset losses the EFL. Relegated and asessed under tbei r Rules and it's a FAIL if that's the difference, subject to Jurisdiction.

2) Raising a challenge that Not Relegated on Sporting Merit? Pfft.

Further, I wonder about tbis £83m vs £105m thing.

Leicester will if needed argue that they are an EFL club in 2023-24...therefore the PL Rule of subtract £22m for each season spent in the EFL ie T-1 and T-2...problem is if they were an EFL Club in 2023-24, that is and they were entitled to the full £105m...

However, logically if Leicester were a PL Club in 2023-24 and they must have been as they argued they couldn't be charged by the PL for Period ending 2022-23, as they were not a PL Club.

T is deemed the prior season for this, whereas T is the present year in the Championship.

Which would be mad given the Golden Share transfer date seems to be a factor?

Logically

Leicester

PL- 2021-22

PL- 2022-23

EFL- 2023-24

However the Golden Share Transferred from Leicester 13th June 2023 post Relegation and back to Leicester prior to 30th June 2024 post their Return. Plus the Accounting date change.

Therefore, it could theoretically be..

Leicester

PL- 2021-22

EFL- 2022-23

PL- 2023-24

Edited Monday at 23:17 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

In theory the EFL going on one reading, could've maybe charged Leicester for the Period ending 2022-23..instead though they went straight for the Business Plan?? They became an EFL Club on 13th June 2023 though technically.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Percy says Leicester have passed to 2023-24??

Very interesting..is it the £105m thing, hopefully he will write a Report about it. Jurisdiction?

Edited yesterday at 10:10 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

In fact NO Clubs seem to have failed.

Albeit the jurisdiction issue Appeal is still pending.

[Markthehorn]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

In fact NO Clubs seem to have failed.

Albeit the jurisdiction issue Appeal is still pending.

Suppose Leicester will now say they are being picked on ?

Carry on as they like I guess for the rest .

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Markthehorn said:

Suppose Leicester will now say they are being picked on ?

Carry on as they like I guess for the rest .

They can say that if they like but Idk what weight it will carry. EFL may take a different view in respect of the Period ending 2022-23 and the more real time element.

Bournemouth are the ones that get me..more than any.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I thought there was an Everton case too, in respect of the Interest Payments issue- PL appealed over something there.