Vaccine Passport - Plan B

[lenred]

1 minute ago, big p said:

So I am a idiot for stating things that are coming into power, things that people were called crackpots a year ago for suggesting it would happen... Hmm who's the idiots now?  

If you want society to have a system where our children are being forced into have unnecessary jabs ( as was stated by the JCVI and overruled by our Government). Then that's totally on you. If you think it will stop there then more fool you, hasn't the 2 years  taught you anything...

All these restrictions because 9 people out of a population of 68,000,000 are in hospital " With" the new varient... For me and others this makes no sense, for you and a lot of others it's clearly justified of which is scary as hell.

Yep. 

[big p]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

Yep. 

Why?

[lenred]

2 minutes ago, big p said:

Why?

It’s been pointed out to you a thousand times……You choose to argue against every sane and rational view backed up by scientific research from some of the worlds most brilliant minds.  But somehow you and your non believers think you know better.  You don’t. That’s why. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by lenred

[LondonBristolian]

I've got to be honest. Whilst there are a lot of libertarian Conservatives who will rebel today due to a misplaced sense of freedom, I do thinkTobias Ellwood may have a point in his reasons for rebelling. It does seem slightly farcical to insist on proof of vaccine or COVID test if we're not confident two jabs is enough. Would it make more sense for it to be proof of negative lateral flow only?

[LoyalRed]

If this variant is as bad as they say it could be, e.g. less severe but more hospital cases for I am guessing a "particular age group" then Plan B, Plan C, Plan D won't stop it.  The only way to protect the NHS "if it is as severe as they say" is to fully lockdown.  I am already seeing that pubs could be limiting numbers and possibly shutting within the next few weeks.  

 

[Bristol Rob]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I've got to be honest. Whilst there are a lot of libertarian Conservatives who will rebel today due to a misplaced sense of freedom, I do thinkTobias Ellwood may have a point in his reasons for rebelling. It does seem slightly farcical to insist on proof of vaccine or COVID test if we're not confident two jabs is enough. Would it make more sense for it to be proof of negative lateral flow only?

Possibly. Except for one small point.

We've run out of lateral flow tests.

[LoyalRed]

Just now, LondonBristolian said:

I've got to be honest. Whilst there are a lot of libertarian Conservatives who will rebel today due to a misplaced sense of freedom, I do thinkTobias Ellwood may have a point in his reasons for rebelling. It does seem slightly farcical to insist on proof of vaccine or COVID test if we're not confident two jabs is enough. Would it make more sense for it to be proof of negative lateral flow only?

I still don't understand why 2 jabs is not enough for those that only got the 2nd vaccine a few months ago?  We have been told all year that 2 jabs was enough.  Now I can see if you had your 2nd jab back in April/May, that there would be a valid point for having the booster (likely most in that category should have already been offered it), but not the more recent 2nd jabber's.

[big p]

10 minutes ago, lenred said:

It’s been pointed out to you a thousand times……You choose to argue against every sane and rational view backed up by scientific research from some of the worlds most brilliant minds.  But somehow you and your non believers think you know better.  You don’t. That’s why. 

Show me any evidence that vaccine passports work. There will be around 80 "Tory" back benchers voting against the passport policy,Yes Tory! Not labour. Are these conspiracy theory crackpots aswell?

Here's one of the MPs, take a listen.

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by big p

[TonyTonyTony]

1 minute ago, Bristol Rob said:

We've run out of lateral flow tests.

Just ordered some online. Easy Peasy

[LoyalRed]

3 minutes ago, big p said:

Show me any evidence that vaccine passports work. There will be around 80 "Tory" back benchers voting against the passport policy,Yes Tory! Not labour. Are these conspiracy theory crackpots aswell.

Here's one of the MPs, take a listen.

 

Wasn't it Labour themselves that said vaccine passports don't work?

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, big p said:

Show me any evidence that vaccine passports work. There will be around 80 "Tory" back benchers voting against the passport policy,Yes Tory! Not labour. Are these conspiracy theory crackpots aswell.

Here's one of the MPs, take a listen.

 

The fact that you use that **** Bridgen to back you up tells me all I need to know. Most definitely not one of the worlds greatest minds. 

[big p]

4 minutes ago, lenred said:

The fact that you use that **** Bridgen to back you up tells me all I need to know. Most definitely not one of the worlds greatest minds. 

He's one of around 70-80 Mps which are thought to be voting against though. We can nit pick all day saying he's not credible, but 70 odd, common!

Edited December 14, 2021 by big p

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

I still don't understand why 2 jabs is not enough for those that only got the 2nd vaccine a few months ago?  We have been told all year that 2 jabs was enough.  Now I can see if you had your 2nd jab back in April/May, that there would be a valid point for having the booster (likely most in that category should have already been offered it), but not the more recent 2nd jabber's.

All year we didn't have the new variant.

Viruses change so the science changes and the advice changes.

Remember a few years back we were all told that diesel cars were what we should be buying...

[LoyalRed]

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

All year we didn't have the new variant.

Viruses change so the science changes and the advice changes.

Remember a few years back we were all told that diesel cars were what we should be buying...

I know science changes over time but I wasn't talking 2 weeks.  People that took the vaccine 3 months ago will be protected (all the scientists said it gives at least 6 months protection).  What happened to the risk of having a booster on top of your 2nd jab, wasn't that a risk where people were expected to wait?

[The Bard]

Trouble with having a plan b 'oven ready' is you default to it without properly considering your options at the time. 

I worry it simply won't work and so people will be adhering to something that is blunt.  

[LoyalRed]

1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Trouble with having a plan b 'oven ready' is you default to it without properly considering your options at the time. 

I worry it simply won't work and so people will be adhering to something that is blunt.  

Plan B -

Wear masks in supermarkets where you don't speak to anyone except the cashier who is behind a pane of plastic glass and then head straight to the pub without a mask and drink with everyone mixing at xmas.

[LondonBristolian]

23 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

I still don't understand why 2 jabs is not enough for those that only got the 2nd vaccine a few months ago?  We have been told all year that 2 jabs was enough.  Now I can see if you had your 2nd jab back in April/May, that there would be a valid point for having the booster (likely most in that category should have already been offered it), but not the more recent 2nd jabber's.

It's because viruses mutate and, as was always a risk, we seem to have a variant is different enough that - until the vaccines are tweaked - won't be necessarily be kept at bay by two jabs,

That's not a major surprise - the flu jab is slightly different each year to protect against what is expected to be the dominant variant - but it does mean that, based on the evidence so far, the people with two vaccines are likely to be protected from serious illness but not necessarily from contracting and transmitting the virus. 

[CyderInACan]

49 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Possibly. Except for one small point.

We've run out of lateral flow tests.

And you can’t get a PCR test either currently 

[Bristol Rob]

Just now, CyderInACan said:

And you can’t get a PCR test either currently 

And you'll never get surprises, livin' in Devizes.

[CyderInACan]

Just now, Bristol Rob said:

And you'll never get surprises, livin' in Devizes.

Name the song. . . 

[Bristol Rob]

4 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Name the song. . . 

Clearly, I know the answer otherwise I wouldn't have posted it, but I'm sure someone else will have a stab (or jab) at it!

[TheReds]

48 minutes ago, lenred said:

The fact that you use that **** Bridgen to back you up tells me all I need to know. Most definitely not one of the worlds greatest minds. 

Why do you simply dismiss a viewpoint (and with expletives) just because you don't like the person? Why not counter what he has actually stated and make him look stupid with why he is wrong iyo?

Most people who are dishing out advice and rules are not the Worlds greatest minds either (many on here) - it doesn't mean they are wrong though. 

[BrizzleRed]

18 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

And you can’t get a PCR test either currently 

Obviously people have used up their bog-rolls, so made some space for another stockpile!

[lenred]

15 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Why do you simply dismiss a viewpoint (and with expletives) just because you don't like the person? Why not counter what he has actually stated and make him look stupid with why he is wrong iyo?

Most people who are dishing out advice and rules are not the Worlds greatest minds either (many on here) - it doesn't mean they are wrong though. 

I choose to use my personal experience of what he has had to say over the last years to know that he is a sensationalist, populist ‘moron’ (that term better for you?) who will say anything and everything to appeal to his audience and who has helped to screw this country (and the very people he claims to represent) into the ground for at least a generation to come. Ill listen and follow the experts.  That ok with you? 

Edited December 14, 2021 by lenred

[TheReds]

Just now, lenred said:

I choose to use my personal experience of what he has had to say over the last years to know that he is a sensationalist, populist ‘moron’ (that term better for you?) who will say anything and everything to appeal to his audience and who has helped to screw this country (and the very people he claims to represent) into the ground for at least a generation to come. That ok with you? 

No, not really.

What has he said "in this instance" that is incorrect and why is he wrong in what he is saying? If people are believing what he has said is true and correct in their opinion, then simply counter their argument of why he is in the wrong believing him, rather than just have a pop at the poster on here for believing him in the first place. What he has done previously is just a very poor excuse not to counter his view on this, if he is sensationalising this then tell us why. Unless you actually think he is right, or has a valid point but cannot bring yourself to admit it?

 

[lenred]

Just now, TheReds said:

No, not really.

What has he said "in this instance" that is incorrect and why is he wrong in what he is saying? If people are believing what he has said is true and correct in their opinion, then simply counter their argument of why he is in the wrong believing him, rather than just have a pop at the poster on here for believing him in the first place. What he has done previously is just a very poor excuse not to counter his view on this, if he is sensationalising this then tell us why. Unless you actually think he is right, or has a valid point but cannot bring yourself to admit it?

 

Oh well. 

[Harry]

On 11/12/2021 at 10:09, James54De said:

It’s no where near a “tiny rise”. Hospitalisations have increased by 600% in South Africa. 

 

On 11/12/2021 at 16:38, LoyalRed said:

What is it 600% or 83% 

if the hospital stays are on average 2 days, then likely people in the U.K. will still be sat in the ambulance when they suddenly start feeling better.  It would be useful to know how many are seriously ill in ICU. 

 

On 11/12/2021 at 22:01, James54De said:

No, it is not

 

On 11/12/2021 at 23:12, pillred said:

Go on then where are your 600% increase figures coming from then? over how long a period? and from which source? and believe me you had better have your sensationalist facts right  because I WILL pull you up on it believe me. 

I see James54De hasn’t managed to find a shred of evidence to his quite extraordinary claim. We’re 3 days on from his post now. Is there any evidence at all for this 600% increase in hospitalisations in South Africa????

On 12/12/2021 at 12:15, Red-Robbo said:

 

Most indicators are Omicron is a bit less virulent but a hell of a lot more infectious.

If a lot more people catch a slightly less dangerous variant that still equals more in hospitals.

@LondonBristolian made an excellent point on the politics board when he said the only real endpoint of these continual crises is ramping up UK hospital capacity so we can cope with repeated coronavirus waves caused by mutations, as well as winter flu surges. Running NHS hospitals at 92-96% bed capacity isn't sustainable. We had wintertime capacity worries even before Covid.

Of course, this isn't a quick fix and requires the political will to reverse the various changes that make it difficult for the UK to recruit student nurses and doctors. But it's something to think about when people cast their votes.

Yes, London Bristolian is absolutely right to say that. 
In fact, I said that a few pages ago on this very thread and for whatever reason, everything I said was dismissed. 
I made the same point as the one you bring forward here from London Bristolian, except that I made the point that we should’ve been implementing the capacity increase 20 months ago. As I said earlier - where is the capacity increase, where is the huge recruitment drive, where are the extra beds; extra nurses, etc etc. 
Will this point be dismissed again as being ‘anti-vax’? 

On 13/12/2021 at 12:03, Tafkarmlf said:

 

I'm sorry that you have resorted someone's mum, dad, brother, sister, family members death to a mechanical posit

It's pretty depressing that humans will try to do this over death. 

Someone has passed because of this, and people still trying to argue the toss, is very disheartening. 

I hate Boris Johnson with a passion, however i want to prevent people dying needlessly and senselessly. 

That means rather than trying to wangle things to fit some very odd beliefs, people have to start taking responsibility for their actions, or in this threads case lack thereof. 

Yes, it is indeed very sad that this person has died. But it is not irresponsible to request data. 
We know nothing except the fact that a person has died and that they tested positive. 
This has been the huge problem since the very start of this in 2020 - lack of transparent data. 
 

I have a rather apt phrase here. Transparency prevents Conspiracy. 
 

We need the full data in order for everyone to have a clear and transparent reasoning behind every single death that has occurred in order for people to make their own rational risk assessment. 
We know some things that impact a covid death - age, health, ethnicity etc. 
 

So for every single death that has been recorded, there should be full transparent data that is easily accessible :

How old was the person. 
What gender were they. 
What was their ethnicity. 
What was their weight - including BMI. 
Did they have any other serious conditions. 
Were they diabetic. 
Were they asthmatic. 
Had they received a vaccine. 
How many. Which brand. 
When was their last vaccine administered. 
When were they admitted to hospital. 
Did they present at hospital for another reason and were subsequently tested positive, or did they present at hospital with covid. If other, what did they present with and when did they become positive. 
Were they transferred to ICU. 
How long were they in ICU. 
What other treatments were administered. 
 

All of this data is relevant in order to form a rational opinion as to whether Omicron played a significant role in this death. 
 

Without data, we are blind. And people will then be able to create their own narrative. Thus a lack of data encourages conspiracy. 
Full, transparent and easily accessible and ‘layman’ presented data keeps everyone fully informed and thus prevents alternative narrative. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Harry

[A Horse With No Name]

34 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Clearly, I know the answer otherwise I wouldn't have posted it, but I'm sure someone else will have a stab (or jab) at it!

Has to be an Adge Cutler ditty surely!

[TheReds]

Just now, lenred said:

Oh well. 

So you cannot even answer why such a moron is wrong, and why you are right? That says more about you than the poster who believes him, shows how you cannot even open up and listen to any other point of view whatsoever, purely because of who it is saying it, unless it is Boris and his people.

[lenred]

10 minutes ago, TheReds said:

So you cannot even answer why such a moron is wrong, and why you are right? That says more about you than the poster who believes him, shows how you cannot even open up and listen to any other point of view whatsoever, purely because of who it is saying it, unless it is Boris and his people.

Ok. Shan’t lost any sleep about what you think of me tbh

Edited December 14, 2021 by lenred