Vaccine Passport - Plan B

[TheReds]

36 minutes ago, eardun said:

Hopefully not a lockdown, but clearly it will all depend on how well the boosters perform against Omicron. 

Surely it will depend on how ill people get with Omicron? What evidence is there that there will be a lockdown as it currently stands - that will just kick the can down the road and ruin more peoples livelihoods, mental health, economy, education, longterm future of everyone.

Or if the numbers are low as South Africa seem to be predicting then the people in charge will say it is ALL down to the booster, it won't be down to the variant being mild. That's a guarantee.

[Harry]

19 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

 

 This is to the both of you

Currently the number is one, from the identifying features you've asked for, given the small number you can use that to identify someone.  Directly which comes with its own issues 

Here's some information commissioner guidance 

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/what-is-personal-data/can-we-identify-an-individual-indirectly/

There is also a raft of things to consider from a health perspective. 

https://www.themdu.com/guidance-and-advice/guides/disclosure-after-death

When you've grasped those, we can chat, however there's not all that much to chat about as the person who's died still wont be made identifiable for tou both to pour over like a lab rat. 

 

No one has called for the person to be identifiable and be a lab rat. Most unusual accusation. 
it’s quite simple information that would be readily available to the person recording the death. 
There is no danger of anyone being identified as a result. 
75 years old, female, south East Asian. BMI 35. 
admitted to hospital for hip replacement on 17/11. Contracted covid in hospital on 20/11. 
Type 2 diabetes. Treated with ‘insert relevant drug here’, transferred to icu 5/12. Died 12/12. 
 

No need to identify anyone. 

[phantom]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Surely it will depend on how ill people get with Omicron? What evidence is there that there will be a lockdown as it currently stands - that will just kick the can down the road and ruin more peoples livelihoods, mental health, economy, education, longterm future of everyone.

Or if the numbers are low as South Africa seem to be predicting then the people in charge will say it is ALL down to the booster, it won't be down to the variant being mild. That's a guarantee.

Especially as a Dr from South Africa has spoken on LBC this morning saying they are four weeks ahead of us and they don't see why there is a major panic in the UK etc

[Bas's perfect hattrick]

1 hour ago, VT05763 said:

Will will be in lockdown in January post everyone spending their money for Xmas and New Year.

Even if (as seems likely) Omicron is milder than the previous variants, the increased rate of infection and therefore the numbers infected in a short period of time will lead to thousands needing hospital care, less people needing oxygen and dyeing probably but still needing to be admitted and cared for in hospital beds.

When they say "we currently have no plans for a lock down" you can be sure they are planning to do just that.

Football will not be operating in January - IMO

 

You may be right. Just imagine how chaotic football in 2022 will be! If there is a lockdown in January, that's realistically no football til end of March at the earlier, when the weather starts getting better and traditional flu season passes. Then you'll have to squeeze in the remaining matches from this season. Then in November/December, we've got the world cup. It'll probably mean that elite players won't get any time off in the summer

[Bristol Rob]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

No one has called for the person to be identifiable and be a lab rat. Most unusual accusation. 
it’s quite simple information that would be readily available to the person recording the death. 
There is no danger of anyone being identified as a result. 
75 years old, female, south East Asian. BMI 35. 
admitted to hospital for hip replacement on 17/11. Contracted covid in hospital on 20/11. 
Type 2 diabetes. Treated with ‘insert relevant drug here’, transferred to icu 5/12. Died 12/12. 
 

No need to identify anyone. 

To be fair, the NHS covid passport only shows your Name and DOB.

Your name is already on your season ticket, so what is the problem with showing that on your way in again? Sorry, I forgot what the original objection was now (this thread has covered a lot)

[Eddie Hitler]

18 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

But you wanted the vaccine to go through 5 year trials. So would you have been happy with 5 years of lockdowns until we had a "fully tested" vaccine so that we could then live with it?

I dont see what you think should have happened differently, that wouldn't have resulted in many, many more deaths?

 

No, you are misrepresenting me.

I want the vaccines to go through five years of trials before I personally am prepared to have them.

I am not telling anyone else what to do; I am explaining why I am not having them.

I would however expect the government / medical establishment to be flagging that the normal trial period has not been undertaken so that people can make a more informed decision rather than simply and repeatedly urging people to be vaccinated.

[TheReds]

2 minutes ago, phantom said:

Especially as a Dr from South Africa has spoken on LBC this morning saying they are four weeks ahead of us and they don't see why there is a major panic in the UK etc

Bloke on news just reported that in South Africa the case fatality rate was 1 in 33 with Delta and Omicron is currently 1 in 200 so far, so 6 times less - small sample numbers though. Also have to take into account that only 25% in South Africa are vaccinated. 

Our people in charge may well be right, but everything suggests they are massively overreacting at the moment. And now we have Sajid Javid saying "we are not like South Africa".

[MarcusX]

1 minute ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

No, you are misrepresenting me.

I want the vaccines to go through five years of trials before I personally am prepared to have them.

I am not telling anyone else what to do; I am explaining why I am not having them.

I would however expect the government / medical establishment to be flagging that the normal trial period has not been undertaken so that people can make a more informed decision rather than simply and repeatedly urging people to be vaccinated.

Well it's a good job not everything thinks like you else we'd have had 5 years of lockdowns.

The vaccine has been through all the same stages of trial as any other. Here's one of many articles explaining that.

https://www.umms.org/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/facts/testing?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=eNPK9gKAkQ.E6B5mz7qpTkzs_.SiVYlgaruf5k13TKQ-1639496027-0-gaNycGzNCKU

[Selred]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Bloke on news just reported that in South Africa the case fatality rate was 1 in 33 with Delta and Omicron is currently 1 in 200 so far, so 6 times less - small sample numbers though. Also have to take into account that only 25% in South Africa are vaccinated. 

Our people in charge may well be right, but everything suggests they are massively overreacting at the moment. And now we have Sajid Javid saying "we are not like South Africa".

South Africa have a younger population and are currently in their Summer. We know both play major affects.

[MarcusX]

2 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Bloke on news just reported that in South Africa the case fatality rate was 1 in 33 with Delta and Omicron is currently 1 in 200 so far, so 6 times less - small sample numbers though. Also have to take into account that only 25% in South Africa are vaccinated. 

Our people in charge may well be right, but everything suggests they are massively overreacting at the moment. And now we have Sajid Javid saying "we are not like South Africa".

It's better to act quickly and scale back than act slowly (like we did with delta) and thousands of people die.

For once Boris has moved quickly, maybe he's learnt his lessons

We're hardly restricted at the minute, mask weearing (not really happening from what i've seen) and vaccine passports or show a test - most venues were requesting this anyway

Cant actually see plan B doing anything tbh, I dont agree with the vaccine passports and testing requirement as I just cant see it doing much. Easy enough to fake a test unfortunately

[TheReds]

3 minutes ago, Selred said:

South Africa have a younger population and are currently in their Summer. We know both play major affects.

And only 25% vaccinated, where as we are at 70%+ which should be making a huge difference as well.

[Eddie Hitler]

3 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Well it's a good job not everything thinks like you else we'd have had 5 years of lockdowns.

The vaccine has been through all the same stages of trial as any other. Here's one of many articles explaining that.

https://www.umms.org/coronavirus/covid-vaccine/facts/testing?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=eNPK9gKAkQ.E6B5mz7qpTkzs_.SiVYlgaruf5k13TKQ-1639496027-0-gaNycGzNCKU

 

Why would we?

All the old, sick and vulnerable would have had it. The same demographic that take the flu jab every year.

I would have had it if I was in that category. My parents had it and if anything I encouraged them to do so.

[eardun]

38 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Surely it will depend on how ill people get with Omicron? What evidence is there that there will be a lockdown as it currently stands - that will just kick the can down the road and ruin more peoples livelihoods, mental health, economy, education, longterm future of everyone.

Or if the numbers are low as South Africa seem to be predicting then the people in charge will say it is ALL down to the booster, it won't be down to the variant being mild. That's a guarantee.

Same thing - Govt are banking on the booster keeping it a mild impact for the majority of people however vulnerable they are. (And I was replying to someone who was saying there will be a lockdown - hence my reply of hopefully not)

[TheReds]

5 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

It's better to act quickly and scale back than act slowly (like we did with delta) and thousands of people die.

For once Boris has moved quickly, maybe he's learnt his lessons

We're hardly restricted at the minute, mask weearing (not really happening from what i've seen) and vaccine passports or show a test - most venues were requesting this anyway

Cant actually see plan B doing anything tbh, I dont agree with the vaccine passports and testing requirement as I just cant see it doing much. Easy enough to fake a test unfortunately

I agree nothing will change as the measures are just ridiculous. Seems to just be a ploy to get more people jabbed to me.

Passports are pointless as people will still be entering venues with Covid and passing it on, and masks do eff all imo., if they did they would never have been taken off the table and put back in as a half way measure now - it is plainly obvious even the advisers can't think they do anything. I have just been shopping and plenty walking around without wearing one.

[Mr Popodopolous]

46 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Why would we?

All the old, sick and vulnerable would have had it. The same demographic that take the flu jab every year.

I would have had it if I was in that category. My parents had it and if anything I encouraged them to do so.

I had a theory for a time that a small part of it was about saving face and trying to avoid an admission of taking precautions too far and the amount spent etc. It sounds ridiculous but.

"We'd brought all of these vaccine shots so you'd better have them"- ie why it's crept up from 15m to freedom to 15 x 2 shots to 123m and counting...

...However I read in the paper the other day or saw online or something about more jabs being ordered- or will be anyway, 100m?? Can't be right but will have to look again for it. My theory falls down a bit but if as a Government you spend that much on vaccines, it's a hard sell to then say that maybe not so many are required.

Here we are, found it- as of early December 2021 we as a nation were set to order another 114m doses!?

https://www.ft.com/content/b809c6e5-baa5-43d2-b666-6067d90ad3ed

[James54De]

1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

The difference was that there is a long-established safe vaccine for influenza and initially there wasn't one at all for Covid.

Now that the elderly and vulnerable, plus anyone else who wants it, are vaccinated then yes we should simply learn to live with Covid and produce vaccines tailored to each strain as happens for 'flu vaccine.

 

I don't think people are being obtuse here but rather reading what they want to read rather than what is actually written; which brings me back to this being a "polarised debate" rather than a sensible one.

Flu jab changes every year, and is different in different parts of the world. Want that tested for five years every time it is changed? 

[Eddie Hitler]

4 minutes ago, James54De said:

Flu jab changes every year, and is different in different parts of the world. Want that tested for five years every time it is changed? 

 

No.

This is because the basic mechanism of the 'flu vaccine hasn't changed for decades; only the four strains against which it protects differ each year.

Compare this to Covid vaccines where not only is each one just into its second year of trials but there are several of them, all different, and nobody knows which is safest.

Hence the deliberate references to "the jab" "booster vaccine" by the government media where there isn't a reference to which vaccine you are going to have when you turn up.

And if one is safest then one will be the most dangerous.

If people like gambling so much that they wish to roll the dice with their health then that's their choice to make; I won't be joining them.

[Riaz]

Very interesting!

[Kid in the Riot]

31 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

If people like gambling so much that they wish to roll the dice with their health then that's their choice to make; I won't be joining them.

5 people in the UK have died with the vaccination cited as the underlying cause of death. That's from 122m doses administered.

Remind me to never ask you for any betting tips, as assessing risk clearly isn't your strong point. 

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Mate, 

That's more tha than enough info to find someone. 

All you need to is, search register of deaths for your example and you'd find that person very quickly. 

If you had access to NHS SPINE probably even quicker 

So, to reiterate 

You want information that breaks 

The Human Rights Act 1998

UK GDPR (even though person is dead, still has right to Privacy as do their family) 

DPA 2018

And those dealing with the deceased to break GMC rules to sate your lust on this one

So fined, jailed and struck off, 

As I said to start with, may want to reevaluate that diatribe. 

I don’t want it for 1 individual. I want it for all covid deaths. Surely the detail of the data can inform who and why are the most vulnerable. Is that not something that is extremely important to understand. 

[ChippenhamRed]

38 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

No.

This is because the basic mechanism of the 'flu vaccine hasn't changed for decades; only the four strains against which it protects differ each year.

Compare this to Covid vaccines where not only is each one just into its second year of trials but there are several of them, all different, and nobody knows which is safest.

Hence the deliberate references to "the jab" "booster vaccine" by the government media where there isn't a reference to which vaccine you are going to have when you turn up.

And if one is safest then one will be the most dangerous.

If people like gambling so much that they wish to roll the dice with their health then that's their choice to make; I won't be joining them.

The biggest gamble you can take with your health is to turn down a vaccine that enormously reduces your chances of dying from a virus that has killed 150,000 people in this country alone. It also greatly reduces your chances of getting long term symptoms and thus reduced quality of life, with no guarantees of full recovery.

Vaccine adverse effects are an infinitely smaller risk by comparison. Additionally, the vaccine has passed all necessary, stringent tests required to demonstrate safety and has been in development (for coronaviruses in general) for years.

Listen to highly qualified scientists, not your Auntie Doris’s Facebook page.

[Harry]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

To be fair, the NHS covid passport only shows your Name and DOB.

Your name is already on your season ticket, so what is the problem with showing that on your way in again? Sorry, I forgot what the original objection was now (this thread has covered a lot)

Hi Rob. It’s not about the name or date of birth or whatever that is on the pass. I have no problem with ID in general. 
Hopefully I’ve stated my case quite clearly and openly, but as you ask, I’ll summarise with a copy of a message I sent to another friend last night :

“It’s not the here and now mate. It’s where it’s heading. 
Don’t get me wrong - I’m not an anti vaxxer and all that. I’m completely pro-vaccine. It certainly is a good thing for those that are vulnerable. 
But I started to question it about Feb/March ish. Originally it was for the vulnerable groups, but gradually it started creeping. Then it was gonna be 2. And 3. And more. 
My big issue came when I could see that they were gonna make children have it. I saw that coming back in March mate. 
For me, a 47 year old, the benefit analysis is fair. 
For kids, it’s not. They don’t need it. Just like any drugs/medical procedures, there IS a risk. I’m happy for adults to take that risk/benefit but I don’t believe kids should. This virus doesn’t affect kids and they shouldn’t be expected to take a vaccine they don’t need that ‘could’ harm them. I say ‘could’ because yes it is rare, but it is definitely there. The governments own advice makes clear that heart problems do occur and in children it’s been shown to be more prevalent than in adults. 
Yes, still rare. But still a danger that no one should expect their child to take. 
Right now, as an adult, yes flash your pass, no problem. All easy enough. 
But when you have to get your kids jabbed 3 times to be able to go on holiday, will people think any different? 
So that’s where I’m at mate. It’s all fine now, but I’m thinking further down the line and I’m not participating in anything that might mean the government think we’re all happy to comply with, so they can make it mandatory for our kids to have it as well. 
The kids are my red line. And as they say “it’s the hill I will die on”. 
Already they’ve now reduced it to 12 year olds - so as of next month, if your 12 year old isn’t jabbed, no holiday. Won’t be long til they reduce that to 5 years old. 
Why should 5 year olds be injected with something that has a small chance of severely harming them, to protect them against something with an even smaller chance of harming them? 
That’s why I’m taking my stand and not participating. 
Sorry everyone for the long ramble. And sorry if you disagree. That’s fine. Everyone has to have personal choice, but it shouldn’t come with consequences.”

[Mr Popodopolous]

23 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don’t want it for 1 individual. I want it for all covid deaths. Surely the detail of the data can inform who and why are the most vulnerable. Is that not something that is extremely important to understand. 

Surely it's a bit simpler than that even, for a starting point anyway.

1. Age or age range
2. Underlying health condition- yes or no, perhaps specify which if required but yes or no. See co-morbidity as well.
3. Ethnicity- possibly, there were some bits a while ago about whether certain minorities were more susceptible and why that might be. 
4. % or absolute number- perhaps both

Doesn't particularly identify anyone but it gives a clear and fair picture. It's fairly simple too- easy to look at in graphs/charts etc.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surely it's a bit simpler than that even, for a starting point anyway.

1. Age or age range
2. Underlying health condition- yes or no, perhaps specify which if required but yes or no. See co-morbidity as well.
3. Ethnicity- possibly, there were some bits a while ago about whether certain minorities were more susceptible and why that might be. 
4. % or absolute number- perhaps both

Doesn't particularly identify anyone but it gives a clear and fair picture. It's fairly simple too- easy to look at in graphs/charts etc.

Agreed Pops. Data is vital to understand risk. 

[TheReds]

10 minutes ago, Harry said:

Hi Rob. It’s not about the name or date of birth or whatever that is on the pass. I have no problem with ID in general. 
Hopefully I’ve stated my case quite clearly and openly, but as you ask, I’ll summarise with a copy of a message I sent to another friend last night :

“It’s not the here and now mate. It’s where it’s heading. 
Don’t get me wrong - I’m not an anti vaxxer and all that. I’m completely pro-vaccine. It certainly is a good thing for those that are vulnerable. 
But I started to question it about Feb/March ish. Originally it was for the vulnerable groups, but gradually it started creeping. Then it was gonna be 2. And 3. And more. 
My big issue came when I could see that they were gonna make children have it. I saw that coming back in March mate. 
For me, a 47 year old, the benefit analysis is fair. 
For kids, it’s not. They don’t need it. Just like any drugs/medical procedures, there IS a risk. I’m happy for adults to take that risk/benefit but I don’t believe kids should. This virus doesn’t affect kids and they shouldn’t be expected to take a vaccine they don’t need that ‘could’ harm them. I say ‘could’ because yes it is rare, but it is definitely there. The governments own advice makes clear that heart problems do occur and in children it’s been shown to be more prevalent than in adults. 
Yes, still rare. But still a danger that no one should expect their child to take. 
Right now, as an adult, yes flash your pass, no problem. All easy enough. 
But when you have to get your kids jabbed 3 times to be able to go on holiday, will people think any different? 
So that’s where I’m at mate. It’s all fine now, but I’m thinking further down the line and I’m not participating in anything that might mean the government think we’re all happy to comply with, so they can make it mandatory for our kids to have it as well. 
The kids are my red line. And as they say “it’s the hill I will die on”. 
Already they’ve now reduced it to 12 year olds - so as of next month, if your 12 year old isn’t jabbed, no holiday. Won’t be long til they reduce that to 5 years old. 
Why should 5 year olds be injected with something that has a small chance of severely harming them, to protect them against something with an even smaller chance of harming them? 
That’s why I’m taking my stand and not participating. 
Sorry everyone for the long ramble. And sorry if you disagree. That’s fine. Everyone has to have personal choice, but it shouldn’t come with consequences.”

Agree with that - and I have had my first two jabs as well.

My issue was when anyone questioned anything that they could see happening in the future with the first restrictions they basically got ridiculed by the mob. The amount of times I have read about not to go down the argument of the "slippery slope", as any suggestions was automatically a "conspiracy theory". It seems more and more of these "conspiracy theories" keep coming true. We are now at a point when lockdown talk just seems "normal" conversation, showing vaccine passports and wearing a mask is simply "nothing", even though there doesn't seem to be any evidence what they are achieving by it.

After all of the Xmas party stuff and the cover up by actual so called journalists who knew what happened, then I basically called it a day with the lot of it, and the media in general. They seem to want to push one agenda and one agenda only, have no debate or have anyone with a different view, and anyone with a different view simply gets called all sorts of names. This new panic and fearmongering is ridiculous, and I for one have gone past caring. Still at least all the data and figures are nice and transparent. 

[TheReds]

1 minute ago, Harry said:

Agreed Pops. Data is vital to understand risk. 

Surely one major bit of data is how many people are admitted to hospital because they have Covid, and need to stayover x amount of days/nights because they are that ill?

I wonder what this first person who died 'with' Omicron was admitted for, I am sure if it was Omicron it would have been stated to add some more fear into the population.

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

5 people in the UK have died with the vaccination cited as the underlying cause of death. That's from 122m doses administered.

Remind me to never ask you for any betting tips, as assessing risk clearly isn't your strong point. 

 

Might I suggest that it is very much in the government's interest to minimize the former number whilst maximising the latter?

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Listen to highly qualified scientists, not your Auntie Doris’s Facebook page.

 

Yes, that's absolutely where I gather my information about the subject as does everyone raising any doubts against the vaccine whilst all those arguing for everyone being vaccinated is only doing so after extensive study in the British Library.

[spudski]

Deaths involving and due to Influenza and Pneumonia, England and Wales, deaths registered in 2020 and 2021.

These are the summed totals for Week 1 2020 to week 53 (ending 1st January 2021):

Deaths involving influenza and Pneumonia: 111,957 deaths

Deaths due to Influenza and pneumonia: 20,523 deaths 

Copy and pasted from Gov.uk

I wonder as Harry is trying to find out, what the stats are for covid...

Amazing we as a population aren't scared and in fear of Flu when 112,000 die WITH it.

 

 

 

[Galley is our king]

2 hours ago, Riaz said:

Very interesting!

Not really, questions being asked by someone who obviously has an agenda and answered by a doctor who also has one.

No wonder you have the views you have if you trawl the Internet looking for shite like this. " Dark horse podcast"? Are you serious?

I suggest you change your reading matter and stop looking for bullshit websites that you use to try and justify your position.

Look, believe what you will. Its pretty obvious you are not going to change your mind, good on you.

You have your view, I have mine.

Why do you keep trying to justify your position or try and change others?