Table based on games played

[Show Me The Money!]

@Taz @Steve Watts just my opinion but I just don’t think we will get the kind of offers people hope will solve all our financial issues.

HNM is still very young and inconsistent

Scott also very young and raw

 Semenyo, still young and not potent enough in front of goal to attract big fee offers. 
 

None of them are prem ready like Webster and Brownhill were hence I think we won’t get big offers for them.

 It’s whether we can financially keep hold of them till they do attract those bigger kind of offers which I don’t disagree they could be worth in time

[Steve Watts]

10 minutes ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz @Steve Watts just my opinion but I just don’t think we will get the kind of offers people hope will solve all our financial issues.

HNM is still very young and inconsistent

Scott also very young and raw

 Semenyo, still young and not potent enough in front of goal to attract big fee offers. 
 

None of them are prem ready like Webster and Brownhill were hence I think we won’t get big offers for them.

 It’s whether we can financially keep hold of them till they do attract those bigger kind of offers which I don’t disagree they could be worth in time

The thing you're looking at with all three though is that we're not necessarily selling the player but rather selling the potential.  All of these players have the potential to reach the very top with the right coaching and in the right environment.  The clubs that would be looking at them know that there is a high chance of a large profit on each of them. Two other things to consider is that 1) We don't need to sell, so silly low prices won't get them and 2) we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we?  I may have got the figure wrong, but it was reported that it fell short of out valuation nearer £20m.

In other words, pay what we want or bog off!

[Show Me The Money!]

50 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

The thing you're looking at with all three though is that we're not necessarily selling the player but rather selling the potential.  All of these players have the potential to reach the very top with the right coaching and in the right environment.  The clubs that would be looking at them know that there is a high chance of a large profit on each of them. Two other things to consider is that 1) We don't need to sell, so silly low prices won't get them and 2) we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we?  I may have got the figure wrong, but it was reported that it fell short of out valuation nearer £20m.

In other words, pay what we want or bog off!

Players with potential don’t tend to go for as big amounts as players pretty much ready to go.

If we have had a £12 mill bid for AS and turned it down then great but I don’t think we’d get similar offers for Semenyo and HNS for the reasons I pointed out earlier.

As I also said if we can afford to keep hold of them and get more once they are fulfilling that potential more then great

 I guess we’ll find out in the summer. Hoping your right and I’m wrong and we get huge bids for all of them and KP.

 Ok, kidding about that last one. I’ll accept anything 

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, Waconda said:

Fair comment. We will never know is the answer.

Barnsley is a great example of where a coach got more out of less last season. 

And that same coach is a great example of one who got “less out of more” this season.

How you explain that?

[Edgy Red]

7 hours ago, Show Me The Money! said:

@Taz Can’t see us getting anywhere near £50-£60 million. No chance. £15 million tops for all 3.

Unfortunately, i agree with your valuations. I think we could get 20 mill at a push with some significant add ons, but 50 mill is dreaming.

Massengo's valuation has plummeted and whilst Scott and Semenyo both have promise, they aren't in the same bracket as players like Johnson at Forest and Lewis-Potter at Hull.

I would like to hope we will only sell one of the 3 this summer, but time will tell!

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, Shuffle said:

If there wasn’t  point deductions for both Derby & Reading we would be 3 points clear of drop zone with 6 to play. I certainly wouldn’t be confident of us picking up enough points to stay up as at best can see us picking up a max of 6.

Would the goodwill that Pearson still carries with quite a few still prevail if the table was based on games played?  All hypothetical as points deductions have been made but would otib be as calm and considered as it is ? 

Without going over too much old ground across many other posts and threads…

I fully expect Pearson expected to do better this season at the start of the season.

As the season progressed, points deductions made, City ticking over with a little over a point per game, to mean safety was never an issue…I think he cut his cloth accordingly.

Had he wanted to invest last summer or in January, would he have had enough money available to make a major difference, e.g. play-off battle?  The answer is no.  Gambling on that and failing would’ve meant busting FFP this season, embargo, possible points deduction this season and next.  As it stands we have plenty of wiggle room.

But the pressure was always focussed on next season, because of the fuckwhittery of an approach to finances previously.  That Lloyd Kelly transfer in May 2019 to show a profit in that financial year was completely unnecessary, and is why next season is at risk of busting FFP.  Had they made that transfer on 1st June instead there would be no FFP issues next season…we’d actually be several million inside it.

All because someone wanted to post an ego-driven first profit!!!  Pisses me off hugely.

So, the best chance of creating headroom for next season, was to spend as little as possible this season, find out about as many players as possible and go from there.  That has pretty much been done.  It’s a success, but not tangible on the pitch which is why we have mixed views on OTIB.

Has the season panned out great?  Nope.

Has it been a disaster?  Nope either.

Has it been done as cheaply as possible?  Pretty much.

Can other managers coach the players better?  I suspect so.

Could those same managers have laid the foundation in as cost effective way as Pearson?  We will never know, but I’m not sure many / any would’ve accepted the challenge in the first place either.

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes in both sides of the argument.  People who fail to acknowledge that this is not a black and white argument, are burying their heads in their own agendas…on whichever side the fall.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

Unfortunately, i agree with your valuations. I think we could get 20 mill at a push with some significant add ons, but 50 mill is dreaming.

Massengo's valuation has plummeted and whilst Scott and Semenyo both have promise, they aren't in the same bracket as players like Johnson at Forest and Lewis-Potter at Hull.

I would like to hope we will only sell one of the 3 this summer, but time will tell!

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

[Edgy Red]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

That looks about right Dave, but like you say, none of us have really got a clue

Frank Lampard might get desperate at Everton next season and bid 25 mill for Semenyo!

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, Steve Watts said:

we turned down a rumoured £12(?)m bid for AS on deadline day didn't we? 

'We' must be crazy.....

[Waconda]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

And that same coach is a great example of one who got “less out of more” this season.

How you explain that?

Yes he failed and got sacked.

In the past he did well and in the present he didn't that's how it works (well most of the time).

[Davefevs]

24 minutes ago, Waconda said:

Yes he failed and got sacked.

In the past he did well and in the present he didn't that's how it works (well most of the time).

Has Pearson failed….in your opinion?

[Rocking Red Cyril]

Some very Interesting posts here. Some I agree with done not. But strikes me it all come down to SL and available money. 

If, good forbid, all three are sold, it should raise 50 mill. If not then do not sell. Yes NP might walk. if this is done because it shows no forward thinking . But if NP gets this to reinvest then maybe there some sense in it. You would hope the targets would already have been found and agents tinkled. Can SL make any more money available to SL under FFP. 

Does Bents, Kala's get sold for decent fees. Can they off load Palmer and Wells.

There is a heap of questions there that I honestly feel none of us here have true idea as to what may happen.

And would sacking NP really help.

We are right in the shit and am getting more worried that the next few seasons just staying in the championship will be the only Real target.

I really think SL is still seeking further investment partnerships. But I know jack shit .

 

[Lrrr]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

If I was guessing on valuations, I’d say £4-6M Massengo, £8-12 Semenyo, Scott, absolutely no bloody idea!

I think we get more for Scott, ask any other club what they want for their England U19 and you'd get asked for more, he's our real ace card in terms of value.

[cityfan1958]

Selling the young up and coming players is a secondary issue.

Persuading Palmer, Wells, Kalas and maybe Bentley to seek employment elsewhere is the number one most important issue for the summer.

If they go so does the need to sell the younger players.

[Waconda]

On 06/04/2022 at 23:00, Davefevs said:

Has Pearson failed….in your opinion?

In the middle of failing tailspin.

[whoklldredrobin]

For the avoidance of doubt – this is our true league position, once points deductions are removed – two points off the bottom three:

 

17 Derby 41 -7 49

18 Cardiff 40 -14 49

19 Birmingham 41 -17 45

20 CITY 41 -21 45

21 Hull 41 -11 44

22 Reading 41 -29 43

23 Barnsley 40 -29 29

24 Peterboro 41 -48 28

 

This gives a clearer picture of where we are as a club.

With a mooted points deduction and lack of money to spend in the summer, our Championship status is very much all to play for next season. Surely the powers-that-be (whether they are intending to sell or not) don't want to be saddled with a League One club, especially as that could well mean we are on equal footing with the other lot for the first time in a couple of decades.

How we respond as fans – whether that is backing the manger or calling for his head, renewing our season tickets or throwing them at the directors box etc – is down to us.

It also begs the question of whether we would less 'passive' in our play, or as a club, if we are actually were in a relegation scrap. 

Personally, I would like to see clear direction from the top down. When Pat Lam took over at Bristol Bears he famously got everyone at the club in a room and showed them Bristol's results over previous years and asked them whether they were good enough. (Spoiler – they weren't). He publicly stated his plan was to take the club into the Premiership, get them playing Champions Cup rugby, produce Bristol-born players for England and be a positive presence in the community. He said to achieve that dream you had to have a plan, because without a plan, there is no belief. Although the rugby club's league form has dipped this season, almost five years later they have won promotion, lifted their first European trophy, topped the league last year (albeit lost in the play-offs for the second successive year), have two players in the England side and currently have a good chance of reaching the last eight of rugby's Champions League. 

While our chance of playing Champions League football are next to non-existent, and our financial clout in football will not be equitable to the rugby club, we can still dream, we can still plan and still believe we can achieve success on the pitch*. But we have to define what that success is and communicate it properly.

If we have no money to spend that is fine; if we have to play homegrown players that is fine; if our aspiration is to slowly work our way up the Championship table and incrementally improve that is fine; if our plan is to play entertaining, attacking football (yes, please) that is fine too – but if we have to have a measure to work against. That builds clarity and allows us as paying supporters (as well as those within the club) to fairly judge whether we are going in the right direction. Of course, there may well be a plan, but I haven't seen it communicated clearly.

At the moment, it feels as though we are drifting passively waiting for something to happen – with a non-existent board, and an experienced manager who is rapidly turning into the man who shouts at the clouds while the world is falling apart around him. To quote the fans on Saturday: 'That Is Embarrassing'. 

* The stadium and training ground, branding, community programmes are to be applauded. They make the club a more attractive and saleable prospect and have improved the fans' experience in many ways. But in my eyes – and many others – we are not Bristol Sport but Bristol City, and the 'group's' success will always be defined by results on the pitch. 

 

[TonyTonyTony]

Do we need yet another thread of self flagellation?

Ill be in my bunk

[Unan]

So… not our true legal position?

[Robbored]

24 minutes ago, Marcus Aurelius said:

So… not our true legal position?

Of course it’s not - our  actual league position is 19th on 45 points. Just look at the Championship table………..

[GrahamC]

Just now, Robbored said:

Of course it’s not - our  actual league position is 19th on 45 points. Just look at the Championship table………..

Bloody hell! He’s right.

[Wanderingred]

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

Edited April 11, 2022 by Wanderingred

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

As my uncle used to say - “if the horse had stopped for a shit it wouldn’t have win the race”!

[Sleepy1968]

Just imagine GMG putting this to NP in the next presser. I think he'd get punched in the throat via the internet.

[Slippin cider]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

As my uncle used to say - “if the horse had stopped for a shit it wouldn’t have win the race”!

If my uncle had been born a girl he would have been my aunt ….

[GrahamC]

6 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

IF there were no points deductions, and City were indeed in the position shown in the original post, would you be confident of avoiding the drop? It would certainly be exciting… the Hull game would be massive!

If I hadn’t had a paper round I’d have been a professional footballer.

If Juliette Binoche had hung around St. George in the late 1970s I’m sure we would be together now..

None of these 3 things are the case.

[NcnsBcfc]

Really hypothetical isn't it?

We've never really seen the side put under relegation pressure in each of the last two seasons.

Who knows how they would of reacted? Maybe it would have been positively fighting, and battling for every point.

All i know is, that without that threat, the 20/21 & 21/22 teams have drifted through their seasons in a somewhat apathetic state, that on the whole has infuriated the fans.

I don't think we'll be able to pull that off for another season. Relying on other  teams yet again for the 22/23 season may well be our downfall.

Edited April 11, 2022 by NcnsBcfc

[whoklldredrobin]

Everyone is wilfully missing the point here – OF COURSE it is not our actual league position, of course we don't have to worry about relegation, of course it is hypothetical hahahaha... but it does show where we actually are in terms of form, and where we stand as a club. We probably knew it already but I thought it was interesting to see it in black-and-white as it puts things in perspective.

I also made the suggestion that establishing a clear direction as a club and communicating it effectively could be beneficial to making progress on the pitch and building bridges with disaffected fans off it in what could prove to be a few difficult years ahead.

Edited April 11, 2022 by whoklldredrobin

[Wanderingred]

7 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

If I hadn’t had a paper round I’d have been a professional footballer.

If Juliette Binoche had hung around St. George in the late 1970s I’m sure we would be together now..

None of these 3 things are the case.

Nice to see that you have a strong grasp of the second and third conditionals.

[SecretSam]

The fact is that there were points deductions, and you only have to look at the points totals of teams around us to see the impact - half a dozen sides on less than 50 points, clear indication (to me) that everyone has set the bar lower - and that also, like the Prem, there's a clear gap between the good and bad teams in the league.

[The Journalist]

3 minutes ago, whoklldredrobin said:

Everyone is wilfully missing the point here – OF COURSE it is not our actual league position, of course we don't have to worry about relegation, of course it is hypothetical hahahaha... but it does show where we actually are in terms of form, and where we stand as a club. We probably knew it already but I thought it was useful to see it in black-and-white.

 

Not sure anyone's missed the point. Teams have been deducted points because they signed players they couldn't afford, spent beyond their means and tried to gain - and as Wycombe would argue did gain - a competitive advantage.

In essence, without a points deduction the league table also wouldn't reflect where we actually are because two clubs cheated in an attempt to get in front of us.

The other thing to add - as others have already pointed out - is that we wouldn't necessarily have drifted along in the manner we have done for weeks because we'd have been under a lot more pressure.

And results and performances do back that point of view up to an extent - we've not been this shit all season, it's just a classic case of the hard work being done and the players being too spineless and unprofessional to maintain standards with nothing to play for.

Just my two cents, anyway.