Remember When Some Wanted to Scrap the Academy?

[Port Said Red]

And spend the money on other people's players instead?

I can't deny there is something exciting about a signing for reasonably big money but I get far more from watching a youngster coming through the ranks, someone with something invested in the club.

We have had our successes before of course, but the upcoming generation looks to have some real gems and has them in numbers. I think the issue with the academy was that many people wanted instant success from something that is always going to be about 10 - 12 years worth of investment. Of course there are young players that have joined later like Semenyo and Scott, but to me it's even better seeing someone like Bell or Conway being with the club from 6,7, 8 years old and seeing it as home.

I won't name any because I don't like the idea of putting fan pressure on them when they are still learning, but from the games I have watched, I would not be at all surprised to watch a game in the next couple of seasons, where the majority of the side is home grown talent.

Long live the Academy I say, literally the future of our club.

[steveybadger]

In pure economic terms (and I know it’s only the very start of his career), but I wonder what Conway is worth versus the cost of running the academy per year. Suspect there would be a positive cost benefit analysis!

[Port Said Red]

4 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

In pure economic terms (and I know it’s only the very start of his career), but I wonder what Conway is worth versus the cost of running the academy per year. Suspect there would be a positive cost benefit analysis!

Something you couldn't really do until he leaves I guess, but even if he left in a free after say 4 years, what would a player like that cost for the same return. It's like making your own food instead of buying it in a restaurant.

[Mr Popodopolous]

More than earns its keep.

Both with a steady path to the 1st team and transfer profit. Kelly, Bryan and Reid the big notables!

Exempt from FFP expenditure too, no-brainer to keep and indeed build on it.

Then there are players such as Pring, Benarous, Scott, Semenyo, Conway to name 5 still at the club and if required may make the club funds in future.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Eddie Hitler]

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

 

It has however really hit its stride over the last ten years which is going to be a combination of good staff - training, scouting - and good facilities.  The goal, which at times seemed very remote, was to emulate Southampton's Academy and we must be coming close to that now.

I always liked the idea of having an Academy as a fudnamental part of the club but when people were posting in the 2000s that it was a waste of £1m - £2m a year and should be closed down I had very little evidence to use as a counter argument.

[Port Said Red]

2 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

 

It has however really hit its stride over the last ten years which is going to be a combination of good staff - training, scouting - and good facilities.  The goal, which at times seemed very remote, was to emulate Southampton's Academy and we must be coming close to that now.

I always liked the idea of having an Academy as a fudnamental part of the club but when people were posting in the 2000s that it was a waste of £1m - £2m a year and should be closed down I had very little evidence to use as a counter argument.

But it wasn't really an academy then, it was a straightforward youth set up. Once it became an academy with all that investment entails, it was always going to be the pre teens that were going to benefit most.

[Eddie Hitler]

9 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

But it wasn't really an academy then, it was a straightforward youth set up. Once it became an academy with all that investment entails, it was always going to be the pre teens that were going to benefit most.

 

Agreed but that really wasn't happening.

Bobby Reid had been in the Academy since 2002 and made the first team in 2011.

Joe Bryan since 2009 and also made the first team in 2011.

 

Now it's a glorious converyor belt of talent but there wasn't a cornucopia of players coming through up to 2010 so the people who wanted to shut it down had the stats on their side.

[Numero Uno]

What I like is the lads coming through are made of the right stuff and have the right attitude. No Billy Big Bollocks but no being overawed either. They all show the right balance of “out there because you deserve to be” without the “I’ve arrived” bullshit you get from a few who end up falling by the wayside. Conway was up against an out and out unit yesterday and took the game to him not allowing it to be the other way round.

[2015]

10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What I like is the lads coming through are made of the right stuff and have the right attitude. No Billy Big Bollocks but no being overawed either. They all show the right balance of “out there because you deserve to be” without the “I’ve arrived” bullshit you get from a few who end up falling by the wayside. Conway was up against an out and out unit yesterday and took the game to him not allowing it to be the other way round.

That's the impression i've had from a lot of our youngsters who've 'made it' from Bobby Reid, Cole Skuse and Joe Bryan to the current crop they all have good attitudes and a good mentality. No big timers or massive ego's around the place. The one thing that's impressed me most with Alex Scott is his lack of fear and getting stuck in, some talented youngsters would just shirk from it and think it beneath them.

[grifty]

45 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

If you are using those players, then you’d also have to include the likes of Danny Coles, Matt Hill, Tommy Doherty, Joe Burnell all of whom got over at least 100 appearances for the club.

[Eddie Hitler]

3 minutes ago, grifty said:

If you are using those players, then you’d also have to include the likes of Danny Coles, Matt Hill, Tommy Doherty, Joe Burnell all of whom got over at least 100 appearances for the club.

 

I wasn't trying to come up with an exhaustive list as I have always thought that having the Academy was a good idea from the point whne Scott Davidosn first proposed it.

It was however very hard to defend spending £1m - £2m a year on the Academy as compared with using that to buy in the finished product when the players coming through at the time were worth less than that each year.  How much would those four players have cost to buy at the point whne they joined the first team?  Maybe £2m - £3m which was two years' spending on the Acadmey and they came through over more than two years.

I suspect that nobody regards the Acadmey spending as a waste of money now so the point is somewhat moot.

[Barrs Court Red]

The initial aim of the academy was to fill out the squad with capable, but low cost talent. In that respect it sort of worked, but didn’t really produce the sort of talent we’ve seen come through in recent years.

 

So in some respects, I can see why the likes of Yatered? (Rip) had such a bug bear about it; there were a number of much touted “stars of the future” that never really made it, Marvin Brown being a good example. 

[Eddie Hitler]

1 hour ago, Barrs Court Red said:

The initial aim of the academy was to fill out the squad with capable, but low cost talent. In that respect it sort of worked, but didn’t really produce the sort of talent we’ve seen come through in recent years.

 

So in some respects, I can see why the likes of Yatered? (Rip) had such a bug bear about it; there were a number of much touted “stars of the future” that never really made it, Marvin Brown being a good example. 

 

AshtonYate was the fella. 

[frenchred]

I was also one against the academy and lack of players it produced (thats almost a fact by the way)

I understand that at the moment we are seeing a purple patch with 2 to 3 players regularly in the first team and a few more coming through, great news for the club

Let's give it a couple of seasons before we pass judgement, I hope my initial feelings are wrong, but until we are churning out players, like for example, Southampton, and those said players are part of a successful BCFC team then I will still enjoy their  current success but reserve my judgement in the overall success of it.

[chinapig]

1 hour ago, grifty said:

If you are using those players, then you’d also have to include the likes of Danny Coles, Matt Hill, Tommy Doherty, Joe Burnell all of whom got over at least 100 appearances for the club.

Perhaps if the culture had been more like it is now one of two of those players might have had better careers.

[frenchred]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Perhaps if the culture had been more like it is now one of two of those players might have had better careers.

If the culture we have now was in place at least one of them would have never made it past first base!

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

 

It has however really hit its stride over the last ten years which is going to be a combination of good staff - training, scouting - and good facilities.  The goal, which at times seemed very remote, was to emulate Southampton's Academy and we must be coming close to that now.

I always liked the idea of having an Academy as a fudnamental part of the club but when people were posting in the 2000s that it was a waste of £1m - £2m a year and should be closed down I had very little evidence to use as a counter argument.

When we really started to invest in the academy it would of taken 10 years for us to bare fruit.....who'd of thought recruiting and training young players would take time

[Mr Popodopolous]

There is a little bit of undue negativity too probably about it in the past.

As I recall from end of 2002-03 to start of 2006-07, off the top of my head:

Rosenior- Fulham,  free was it. PL.

Coles- Forget which club but it was definitely a Championship one.

Hill- Again Championship, Preston I think.

Cotterill- PL Wigan

Lita- Promotion bound Reading, from Championship to PL.

Remember we were a League One club at the time, transfer fees were definitely lower 15-20 years back, certainly from League One to Championship.

Probably some I've missed too??

Don't get me wrong, the pathway and the fees are both significantly higher now but these 5 and probably more were picked off by Championship and above.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

And spend the money on other people's players instead?

I can't deny there is something exciting about a signing for reasonably big money but I get far more from watching a youngster coming through the ranks, someone with something invested in the club.

We have had our successes before of course, but the upcoming generation looks to have some real gems and has them in numbers. I think the issue with the academy was that many people wanted instant success from something that is always going to be about 10 - 12 years worth of investment. Of course there are young players that have joined later like Semenyo and Scott, but to me it's even better seeing someone like Bell or Conway being with the club from 6,7, 8 years old and seeing it as home.

I won't name any because I don't like the idea of putting fan pressure on them when they are still learning, but from the games I have watched, I would not be at all surprised to watch a game in the next couple of seasons, where the majority of the side is home grown talent.

Long live the Academy I say, literally the future of our club.

Should have been category 1

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There is a little bit of undue negativity too probably about it in the past.

As I recall from end of 2002-03 to start of 2006-07, off the top of my head:

Rosenior- Fulham,  free was it. PL.

Coles- Forget which club but it was definitely a Championship one.

Hill- Again Championship, Preston I think.

Cotterill- PL Wigan

Lita- Promotion bound Reading, from Championship to PL.

Remember we were a League One club at the time, transfer fees were definitely lower 15-20 years back, certainly from League One to Championship.

Probably some I've missed too??

Golbourne???

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Golbourne???

Yes that rings a bell, good memory!

Vaguely recall he was capped for one of the England young sides, did he have injuries perchance?

Forget who to without googling but where did Tommy D move?

[Port Said Red]

1 minute ago, Son of Fred said:

Should have been category 1

I get the impression from early interviews in the development of the HPC that the club had been led to believe that the Bears indoor area would be seen as sufficient to get it, but that the FA then changed their criteria to say "exclusive use".

whether we have the space and can get the PP for something exclusive I don't know.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Should have been category 1

It's not just a money thing, think there are a range of criteria to it...one or both of Birmingham and Reading have lost this ststus although Derby- relegated to League One and almost went bust plus Stoke seem to have retained it.

I don't pretend to know how it's decided or allocated.

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, Barrs Court Red said:

The initial aim of the academy was to fill out the squad with capable, but low cost talent. In that respect it sort of worked, but didn’t really produce the sort of talent we’ve seen come through in recent years.

 

So in some respects, I can see why the likes of Yatered? (Rip) had such a bug bear about it; there were a number of much touted “stars of the future” that never really made it, Marvin Brown being a good example. 

Indeed. Many from the crop of around 2008-2010 didn’t make it either. Frankie Artus, Jordan Walker Tris Plumber etc etc. It was only Christian Riberio that i can recall from that lot that ever went on to make appearances for the first team but sadly he was just so injury prone that his career never really took off.
 

It could be argued that it was because GJ didn’t like giving youth a chance but if you look at where Artus Plumber etc ended up in the game it would suggest he was right in not trusting them to perform at Championship level for us..

Fantastic to see us producing players now but over the last 20-25 years i can 100% see why people have had reservations of what exactly the academy has been doing. 

[SBB]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes that rings a bell, good memory!

Vaguely recall he was capped for one of the England young sides, did he have injuries perchance?

Forget who to without googling but where did Tommy D move?

QPR

[Eddie Hitler]

13 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

When we really started to invest in the academy it would of taken 10 years for us to bare fruit.....who'd of thought recruiting and training young players would take time

 

Yes, well obviously.  But for those who didn't agree with it then it was all "jam tomorrow".

Until you had the first teamers coming through on a regular basis it was purely a matter of opinion.

[And Its Smith]

@Better Red  what’s your opinion now?

 

[Port Said Red]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

@Better Red  what’s your opinion now?

 

[Barrs Court Red]

15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There is a little bit of undue negativity too probably about it in the past.

As I recall from end of 2002-03 to start of 2006-07, off the top of my head:

Rosenior- Fulham,  free was it. PL.

Coles- Forget which club but it was definitely a Championship one.

Hill- Again Championship, Preston I think.

Cotterill- PL Wigan

Lita- Promotion bound Reading, from Championship to PL.

Remember we were a League One club at the time, transfer fees were definitely lower 15-20 years back, certainly from League One to Championship.

Probably some I've missed too??

Don't get me wrong, the pathway and the fees are both significantly higher now but these 5 and probably more were picked off by Championship and above.

Not really a great list.  Coles went to Hull after an incident on a preseason trip.  Hard to judge chow his career would have gone if it was for a horrific injury.

Lita didn’t really come through our youth system, and had the best career out of those above. 
 

Rosenior was allowed to leave on a free as we failed to offer a contract by a certain date if my memory recalls correctly. 

[Bright Cider Life]

34 minutes ago, frenchred said:

I was also one against the academy and lack of players it produced (thats almost a fact by the way)

I understand that at the moment we are seeing a purple patch with 2 to 3 players regularly in the first team and a few more coming through, great news for the club

Let's give it a couple of seasons before we pass judgement, I hope my initial feelings are wrong, but until we are churning out players, like for example, Southampton, and those said players are part of a successful BCFC team then I will still enjoy their  current success but reserve my judgement in the overall success of it.

I am led to believe the crop that will likely begin to feature for the first team in 2 to 3 years has some absolute gems in it. Clubs like Newcastle and Chelsea already sniffing around. Many a slip twixt cup and lip and all that but the talent is there.