Remember When Some Wanted to Scrap the Academy?

[MarcusX]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Agreed but that really wasn't happening.

Bobby Reid had been in the Academy since 2002 and made the first team in 2011.

Joe Bryan since 2009 and also made the first team in 2011.

 

Now it's a glorious converyor belt of talent but there wasn't a cornucopia of players coming through up to 2010 so the people who wanted to shut it down had the stats on their side.

How much of it comes down the not only the management of said youth system / academy and coaching - but also management of the first team to actually give players a chance?

Some players improve around better players. From what people have said on here we've let some go who people expected big things from, and Conway for example isn't the one I seen touted as "the next big thing" - he's just benefitted from a chance and flourished.

[spudski]

There are many reasons the Academy is now working.

Recruitment, investment in facilities and coaching staff, as well as staff that care for other needs. A pathway to the first team. A first team coach and staff that first and foremost agree and understand the pathway and are willing to blood players. A first team coach that is building the club's future, rather than just for now. A long term, rather than short term fix.

A mediator between first and academy (Tins). 

Playing the same way as the first team. Knowing what is expected both in football terms and as a person. 

Fast tracking. Playing youngsters against older players. Well thought out loans. 

You could go on... however....there is now a philosophy that is adhered to.

Before it was just made up and hoping something might turn up by chance in many ways.

[RedRock]

Hand up.

Only Ashton Yate was more vociferous than  I regarding the Academy ‘issue’.

The fact that many other similar-sized and financed Clubs have made it to the Premier League before us, in part, justifies past criticism.

It does seem now, all be it belatedly, we are producing a pool of talent. For that I am thankful.

Clearly, BT has been a major contributor, but Pearson and his team have possibly ‘tweaked’ the pathway that has enabled the likes of Conway to develop with  the first team squad rather than been sent to Outer Mongolia. Not only has this benefitted the individual Academy product but, joy of joys, we are starting to see partnership develop! Glory be. 

It’s a start … now push on.

 

[And Its Smith]

Another reason is taking players aged 10-13 from the likes of Bristol Inner City and similar local academies.  I won’t name kids of that age on a forum but there are 4 they have signed over the last year that are incredible players, already playing up a year.  Obviously the fruition of these moves won’t be seen for a while but we are now planning years in advance which we weren’t doing before 

[TBW]

I think the common misconception is that the first team should be made up of primarily academy/youth and transfers should compliment it where actually it's very much the other way around. Brentford didn't have an academy and bought sensibly so I get the argument to not bother and focus all efforts on external transfer policy.

It's not something worth an "I told you so" about as you haven't actually seen where we'd be without it.

Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Flint are our highest non-Academy sales with Kelly, Reid and Bryan on the other side. Would we be better off having spent academy money on finding other Brownhill's etc. instead? Never know.

[Bris Red]

7 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

How much of it comes down the not only the management of said youth system / academy and coaching - but also management of the first team to actually give players a chance?

Some players improve around better players. From what people have said on here we've let some go who people expected big things from, and Conway for example isn't the one I seen touted as "the next big thing" - he's just benefitted from a chance and flourished.

As i said many people called GJ a man who didn’t like giving youth a chance but who if any of the lads he didn’t give a ‘chance’ too went on and did anything in the game? 
Im of the opinion that unfortunately the players we produced at that time genuinely weren’t good enough.

[PHILINFRANCE]

23 minutes ago, bris red said:

It was only Christian Riberio that i can recall from that lot that ever went on to make appearances for the first team but sadly he was just so injury prone that his career never really took off.

It was, indeed, sad, as he was an extremely talented young player, who I thought would go very far in the game.

He used to have a big fan on here (big or fat Dave or something similar) but I don’t see him post now, unless he has changed his name.

[SecretSam]

One of the biggest issues with this country (both now and historically) is a failure to think and plan long-term. Everything is about "jam today".

The Academy was a hard sell, sure, but realistically, the only way to ensure our future. 

We came close with players like Ribs, but sure, it's only been in the last few years it's really paid off. But how proud does it make us to have 'one of our own' out there in these cosmopolitan times?

[SecretSam]

30 minutes ago, bris red said:

It was only Christian Riberio that i can recall from that lot that ever went on to make appearances for the first team but sadly he was just so injury prone that his career never really took off.

That injury in the League Cup started a chain of injuries for the lad, kept going even after he left. Such a tragedy, the lad could have been a real talent. I always wonder if he was the reason GJ never bothered with our home grown players again.

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, TBW said:

I think the common misconception is that the first team should be made up of primarily academy/youth and transfers should compliment it where actually it's very much the other way around. Brentford didn't have an academy and bought sensibly so I get the argument to not bother and focus all efforts on external transfer policy.

It's not something worth an "I told you so" about as you haven't actually seen where we'd be without it.

Webster, Kodjia, Brownhill, Flint are our highest non-Academy sales with Kelly, Reid and Bryan on the other side. Would we be better off having spent academy money on finding other Brownhill's etc. instead? Never know.

Brentford are now in the process of building a cat 4 academy to compliment their 'B' team. https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/article/brentford-to-open-academy 

The B team was run like an academy, however they pulled out of the system for a very good reason. Which we have manipulated our own way with the academy system.

What Brentford realised is, that playing against other teams in the academy system, you just get used to playing against other academy players, of your own age and ability.

The gap between academy and Championship has generally been massive.

The chose their B team to play against older and better opposition. Playing against men, rather than boys. Going on tour to foreign countries and playing against all sorts of opposition and tactics. It mad the gap smaller so to speak.

We've done similar within the structure...by playing youngsters in higher age categories and then loaning out youngsters in men's football. Like we have with the two youngsters at Yate. Both technically good players...however...they get beat up every week against Men. Look how good the loan to Yate and Bath did for Tommy Conway. 

That's how we are making the gap between kids football and the Championship narrower.

 

 

 

[Dan Robin]

...............O'Leary

....Vyner...X...Kelly°...Pring

Benarous...Scott...Reid°...Bryan°

.......X...Conway....Semenyo

Xs could be filled by Idehen/Towler  and Edwards/Bell if they will progress well. 

Not bad, eh?

 

Not to forget some potential reserves who were sold in recent seasons (Wollacott, Morrell, Nurse, maybe others?) and Academy players who seem to be highly regarded by Tinnion & co., like Kadji, Francois and Palmer-Houlden.

 

Obviously there were many youngsters who didn't succeed, at least at medium or high levels, for many reasons (overrated skills, pression, injuries,etc.), but it is happens to most teams...

Edited August 22, 2022 by Dan Robin

[chinapig]

35 minutes ago, bris red said:

As i said many people called GJ a man who didn’t like giving youth a chance but who if any of the lads he didn’t give a ‘chance’ too went on and did anything in the game? 
Im of the opinion that unfortunately the players we produced at that time genuinely weren’t good enough.

Some fans insisted Frankie Artus was the next big thing. He wasn't.

[DaveF]

1 hour ago, frenchred said:

I was also one against the academy and lack of players it produced (thats almost a fact by the way)

I understand that at the moment we are seeing a purple patch with 2 to 3 players regularly in the first team and a few more coming through, great news for the club

Let's give it a couple of seasons before we pass judgement, I hope my initial feelings are wrong, but until we are churning out players, like for example, Southampton, and those said players are part of a successful BCFC team then I will still enjoy their  current success but reserve my judgement in the overall success of it.

Seems completely unreasonable to compare us with Southampton's very well established, very well funded academy. 

If you're expecting that level of youngster production you're going to be disappointed.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

@Better Red  what’s your opinion now?

 

Worthless!  (Just like Semenyo as a striker)

57 minutes ago, spudski said:

There are many reasons the Academy is now working.

Recruitment, investment in facilities and coaching staff, as well as staff that care for other needs. A pathway to the first team. A first team coach and staff that first and foremost agree and understand the pathway and are willing to blood players. A first team coach that is building the club's future, rather than just for now. A long term, rather than short term fix.

A mediator between first and academy (Tins). 

Playing the same way as the first team. Knowing what is expected both in football terms and as a person. 

Fast tracking. Playing youngsters against older players. Well thought out loans. 

You could go on... however....there is now a philosophy that is adhered to.

Before it was just made up and hoping something might turn up by chance in many ways.

I really like the opportunities several are given to train with the first team too.  I’m sure this has happened before but there seems to be a big carrot, all the way through the club, not just first team, but to get a chance to train with your “age up”.

When I got shown around the HPC under each age group pitch board (with magnetic blobs) was a section saying “training with age up” (or equivalent).

Back to the first team, Benarous in particular seemed to progress so quickly in that first month he spent with the first team.  I didn’t think he was anywhere near being ready, nowhere near Scott’s level, but happy to say I was wrong at that point in time.  He’s so unlucky to have picked up his ACL injury, not saying he’d be starting, but he’d be getting minutes and putting competitive pressure on those that are playing.

[Better Red]

28 minutes ago, Dan Robin said:

...............O'Leary

....Vyner...X...Kelly°...Pring

Benarous...Scott...Reid°...Bryan°

.......X...Conway....Semenyo

Xs could be filled by Idehen/Towler  and Edwards/Bell if they will progress well. 

Not bad, eh?

 

Not to forget some potential reserves who were sold in recent seasons (Wollacott, Morrell, Nurse, maybe others?) and Academy players who seem to be highly regarded by Tinnion & co., like Kadji, Francois and Palmer-Houlden.

 

Obviously there were many youngsters who didn't succeed, at least at medium or high levels, for many reasons (overrated skills, pression, injuries,etc.), but it is happens to most teams...

Joe & Bobby are almost 30’s thats not really related to the current crop.

Alex Scott  and Antoine S- Not really our Academy product as both nearly 18 when joined academy

Kelly - Yes and big yes for the academy.

O’Leary - not really good enough not sure he is a yes 

Pring - Joined us at 16 so maybe could include him just. Yes success for me like him.

Conway - Yes again for me

Benerous - Not sure at this stage

Vyner - Is a yes what ever you think of him he is playing  regularly at this level.

so really last 5 years - you would say Kelly Conway and maybe just on age Vyner and maybe Pring.

So maybe if you are critical you would say the success recently players who has been a success as Our Academy - 3 or 4 Kelly, Conway, Vyner and maybe Pring 

It’s not bad and certainly helped with Tommy making his break through but it’s not as good as some may think when talking about ‘Our’ true academy players.

But it does feel like we are getting better at developing younger players even if not true academy products

 

 

 

[Cowshed]

4 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's great now but for a long time it produced very little.

For the first ten years all that I can call to mind who made it into the first team are:

Louis Carey - probably youth programme predating the acacdemy

Aaron Brown, his borther Marvin was much trumpeted but never made the step up to the first team

Kevin Amankawaah

Three players over maybe a dozen years.

 

It has however really hit its stride over the last ten years which is going to be a combination of good staff - training, scouting - and good facilities.  The goal, which at times seemed very remote, was to emulate Southampton's Academy and we must be coming close to that now.

I always liked the idea of having an Academy as a fudnamental part of the club but when people were posting in the 2000s that it was a waste of £1m - £2m a year and should be closed down I had very little evidence to use as a counter argument.

You may want to seperate what was the centre of excellence to todays academy. The centre of excellence was originally ran on pennies and trained in car parks and for some reason was used to knock the FC as a drain on resources. The academy of the 90's wasn't close to what Southampton were doing, and the further improved academy of now isnt on the same planet v Southampton. Southampton are a academy of International standing. Bristol City are improving and now ranked top thirty in England for productivity. 

Your figure of £1 -2 m there is uneven with respect., The elite player programme was introduced in 2012. A CAT 2 academy then cost a season circa £800k, which was part of EPP spending criteria to gain CAT 2 level.  £2m was CAT 1. 

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Better Red said:

Joe & Bobby are almost 30’s thats not really related to the current crop.

Alex Scott  and Antoine S- Not really our Academy product as both nearly 18 when joined academy

Kelly - Yes and big yes for the academy.

O’Leary - not really good enough not sure he is a yes 

Pring - Joined us at 16 so maybe could include him just. Yes success for me like him.

Conway - Yes again for me

Benerous - Not sure at this stage

Vyner - Is a yes what ever you think of him he is playing  regularly at this level.

so really last 5 years - you would say Kelly Conway and maybe just on age Vyner and maybe Pring.

So maybe if you are critical you would say the success recently players who has been a success as Our Academy - 3 or 4 Kelly, Conway, Vyner and maybe Pring 

It’s not bad and certainly helped with Tommy making his break through but it’s not as good as some may think when talking about ‘Our’ true academy players.

But it does feel like we are getting better at developing younger players even if not true academy products

 

 

 

Semenyo joined the academy miles off of ability needed and it was City coaches that helped improve him to where he is now. You give no credit to City for improving him which is odd.  An academy is not just about taking players at 9, 10, 11 and turning them into first teamers. It’s also about spotting local talent and improving them. 

[ExiledAjax]

9 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Semenyo joined the academy miles off of ability needed and it was City coaches that helped improve him to where he is now. You give no credit to City for improving him which is odd.  An academy is not just about taking players at 9, 10, 11 and turning them into first teamers. It’s also about spotting local talent and improving them. 

And giving them careers that they otherwise would not have had. Producing players for our teams and for sale for big fees may be a primary aim, but in my opinion the club and academy should get some credit as well for those young people who go on to have good careers at other teams and in other divisions.

JoJo Wollacott never played for our first team (although was on the bench a few times iirc) and left on a free. Perhaps a failure of the academy? I don't think so. He's gone on to a solid career, including 10 appearances for Ghana. So there's a 25 year old making a living that he might not otherwise have done, and it's down to our system plus his obvious hard work.

Just one example, but there are others.

[TBW]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Some fans insisted Frankie Artus was the next big thing. He wasn't.

Don't forget Jehad Muntasser.

[steveybadger]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Golbourne???

 

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes that rings a bell, good memory!

Vaguely recall he was capped for one of the England young sides, did he have injuries perchance?

Forget who to without googling but where did Tommy D move?

Brennan - did he come through it? Know he was Canadian but still possible I guess?

[alexukhc]

2 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Not really a great list.  Coles went to Hull after an incident on a preseason trip.  Hard to judge chow his career would have gone if it was for a horrific injury.

Lita didn’t really come through our youth system, and had the best career out of those above. 
 

Rosenior was allowed to leave on a free as we failed to offer a contract by a certain date if my memory recalls correctly. 

What did Coles do? Memory has gone blank 

Edited August 22, 2022 by alexukhc

[Barrs Court Red]

5 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

 

Brennan - did he come through it? Know he was Canadian but still possible I guess?

Way before the academy 

[alexukhc]

36 minutes ago, TBW said:

Don't forget Jehad Muntasser.

Came from arsenal 

[Barrs Court Red]

Just now, alexukhc said:

What did Coles do? Memory has gone blank 

What did Coles do? Memory has gone blank 

I think it was an incident during a pre season trip to Loughborough- others may remember the details, but that was that as far as the then manager was concerned (can’t even remember who that was)

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

What did Coles do? Memory has gone blank 

Tinnion had just taken over as manager & they had a bust up pre season, think Coles might well have got done for some nonsense whilst he was drunk.

Lots of rumours that he & Tommy Doc were looking to engineer a way out of BS3 as soon as Tinnion was appointed.

Tinnion then replaced Coles with Dave Partridge, so that obviously went really well..

 

[Red-Robbo]

17 minutes ago, alexukhc said:

Came from arsenal 

 

Thought he came from Libya...  

[Monkeh]

4 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

Yes, well obviously.  But for those who didn't agree with it then it was all "jam tomorrow".

Until you had the first teamers coming through on a regular basis it was purely a matter of opinion.

Yea thats a fair comment,

Some seen the value in it, back then

[BUTOR]

It’s the best academy outside the premier league, no? 

[Monkeh]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

Brentford are now in the process of building a cat 4 academy to compliment their 'B' team. https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/article/brentford-to-open-academy 

The B team was run like an academy, however they pulled out of the system for a very good reason. Which we have manipulated our own way with the academy system.

What Brentford realised is, that playing against other teams in the academy system, you just get used to playing against other academy players, of your own age and ability.

The gap between academy and Championship has generally been massive.

The chose their B team to play against older and better opposition. Playing against men, rather than boys. Going on tour to foreign countries and playing against all sorts of opposition and tactics. It mad the gap smaller so to speak.

We've done similar within the structure...by playing youngsters in higher age categories and then loaning out youngsters in men's football. Like we have with the two youngsters at Yate. Both technically good players...however...they get beat up every week against Men. Look how good the loan to Yate and Bath did for Tommy Conway. 

That's how we are making the gap between kids football and the Championship narrower.

 

 

 

One of those players is dating a member of my family, I said as much, he's too good for that level, he's there to play against men instead of the under 23's and hopefully is on the same path as Conway who also went to yate on loan

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Not really a great list.  Coles went to Hull after an incident on a preseason trip.  Hard to judge chow his career would have gone if it was for a horrific injury.

Lita didn’t really come through our youth system, and had the best career out of those above. 
 

Rosenior was allowed to leave on a free as we failed to offer a contract by a certain date if my memory recalls correctly. 

This is fair.

Yes Lita was Chelsea wasn't he?

I would say though that they were sought after by clubs who were on the pitch higher than us at that time. We certainly failed with Rosenior contract timing wise, our mistake but he still came through our academy and went to Fulham.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous