Remember When Some Wanted to Scrap the Academy?

[TBW]

1 hour ago, alexukhc said:

Came from arsenal 

Lots of players came from other clubs first. Doesn't mean they can't then be attributed to the academy at all.

[Mr Popodopolous]

From a purely financial perspective, it's a total no-brainer. What with FFP too.

Academy expenditure exempt from FFP, and supposing you sell an average of £5-10m of academy products per year, well in simple terms that's £5-10m per year off your operating loss which if you want you can plough back into the 1st team.

Risky of course as you never know when the academy prospects might dry up but if done correctly...

Edited August 22, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[steveybadger]

2 hours ago, Barrs Court Red said:

Way before the academy 

Yep didn’t mean that, just whether he came through our youth system?

[Better Red]

9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

More than earns its keep.

Both with a steady path to the 1st team and transfer profit. Kelly, Bryan and Reid the big notables!

Exempt from FFP expenditure too, no-brainer to keep and indeed build on it.

Then there are players such as Pring, Benarous, Scott, Semenyo, Conway to name 5 still at the club and if required may make the club funds in future.

Scott and Seymenyo not really products of our academy both brought in much later 

[Better Red]

4 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Semenyo joined the academy miles off of ability needed and it was City coaches that helped improve him to where he is now. You give no credit to City for improving him which is odd.  An academy is not just about taking players at 9, 10, 11 and turning them into first teamers. It’s also about spotting local talent and improving them. 

He was 18 when he joined us - not having that as an academy product.

Might have spotted him and developed etc I do agree with your point - but not academy product that’s more about an under 21’s set up or reserves….

Same goes for Scott.

Massengo similarly not academy 

So in recent times the success for me are - 

Kelly, Vyner and Conway all def went through the academy and maybe Pring as joined 16. 

That’s not bad but Kelly does give that a big boost. Hopefully Conway does the same as not sure re Vyner and Pring what will happen when if/they leave us.

Others may come through of course and it could look better.

At the moment it’s ok but as not as good as some would lead you to believe when you dig into the facts a bit more and understand where the players have come from.

Academy vs Kids diff question.

Kids - doing pretty well at the moment.

 

 

[grifty]

3 hours ago, Better Red said:

He was 18 when he joined us - not having that as an academy product.

Might have spotted him and developed etc I do agree with your point - but not academy product that’s more about an under 21’s set up or reserves….

Same goes for Scott.

Massengo similarly not academy 

So in recent times the success for me are - 

Kelly, Vyner and Conway all def went through the academy and maybe Pring as joined 16. 

That’s not bad but Kelly does give that a big boost. Hopefully Conway does the same as not sure re Vyner and Pring what will happen when if/they leave us.

Others may come through of course and it could look better.

At the moment it’s ok but as not as good as some would lead you to believe when you dig into the facts a bit more and understand where the players have come from.

Academy vs Kids diff question.

Kids - doing pretty well at the moment.

It's not just about how much you sell them for, but also what value they offer while in and around the first team.

So, how much would we have paid in transfer fee and wages for a Vyner replacement or multiple replacements over the X amount of years we've had him and wages compared to how much we have paid him and coaching costs since he joined the academy.

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, Better Red said:

He was 18 when he joined us - not having that as an academy product.

Might have spotted him and developed etc I do agree with your point - but not academy product that’s more about an under 21’s set up or reserves….

Same goes for Scott.

Massengo similarly not academy 

So in recent times the success for me are - 

Kelly, Vyner and Conway all def went through the academy and maybe Pring as joined 16. 

That’s not bad but Kelly does give that a big boost. Hopefully Conway does the same as not sure re Vyner and Pring what will happen when if/they leave us.

Others may come through of course and it could look better.

At the moment it’s ok but as not as good as some would lead you to believe when you dig into the facts a bit more and understand where the players have come from.

Academy vs Kids diff question.

Kids - doing pretty well at the moment.

While some young players coming through might not be academy products in the strictest sense of the term, you perhaps have to look at what influenced them to come here on the first place.

If one of the reasons is that they could see our academy set up producing players good enough for first team places and that there was a clear pathway for young players(academy products or not) to progress to the first team, then for me that indicates the academy 

The other thing about the academy and the rich seam of talent if is now producing is that it seems to reflect that we now have a club where everyone is pulling in the same direction. I read that Pearson commented that last week the team was finding,/has found its identity.

Perhaps it is more that the club is finding its identity again, after becoming a shadow of itself under Ashton's misguided stewardship, and that a lot of that is to do with the younger players coming through so well.

Those of my generation will remember a crop of what we're back then youth team players coming through together to form the nucleus of a promotion winning team in 76. this does have a similar vibe to those days, although the club's ability to hold on to talent like Scott and Semenyo is a lot different than back then.

I reckon fans have a greater sense of pride in their team if there is a good contingent of " home grown players" as opposed to the overpaid underperformers we have been too familiar with in recent times.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 hours ago, downendcity said:

While some young players coming through might not be academy products in the strictest sense of the term, you perhaps have to look at what influenced them to come here on the first place.

If one of the reasons is that they could see our academy set up producing players good enough for first team places and that there was a clear pathway for young players(academy products or not) to progress to the first team, then for me that indicates the academy 

The other thing about the academy and the rich seam of talent if is now producing is that it seems to reflect that we now have a club where everyone is pulling in the same direction. I read that Pearson commented that last week the team was finding,/has found its identity.

Perhaps it is more that the club is finding its identity again, after becoming a shadow of itself under Ashton's misguided stewardship, and that a lot of that is to do with the younger players coming through so well.

Those of my generation will remember a crop of what we're back then youth team players coming through together to form the nucleus of a promotion winning team in 76. this does have a similar vibe to those days, although the club's ability to hold on to talent like Scott and Semenyo is a lot different than back then.

I reckon fans have a greater sense of pride in their team if there is a good contingent of " home grown players" as opposed to the overpaid underperformers we have been too familiar with in recent times.

I agree with this for the most part and there is a lot to be proud of when the young players push through and then shine at first team level or go on and play in the PL, or even for England albeit not with us to late.

Slight side note, had NP been in charge during the LJ, Holden but ultimately era of Mr. Ashton that we would have got more out of a range of players who were a bit meh for us- and they likely would have been available for longer too, how we used to rush players back wad ridiculous and only made things worse.

[Rudolf Hucker]

15 hours ago, Better Red said:

So in recent times the success for me are - 

Kelly, Vyner and Conway all def went through the academy and maybe Pring as joined 16. 

Rueben McAllister

[Fordy62]

I suppose the downside of the academy is that we don’t get to see quality foreign additions like Diony and Rodri. 

[downendcity]

The academy has now set a benchmark that will be tough to maintain.

However, if it does then the club's future will look very bright.

[Better Red]

6 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Rueben McAllister

No he’s not a success

[Sheltons Army]

5 minutes ago, Better Red said:

No he’s not a success

I’d call £250k At his age , a success for us personally 

 

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

5 minutes ago, Better Red said:

No he’s not a success

£250k for his signature with more to follow says that, from a financial perspective, he is. 

[Better Red]

2 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

£250k for his signature with more to follow says that, from a financial perspective, he is. 

Still not a success

3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I’d call £250k At his age , a success for us personally 

 

 

Still not a success

[Better Red]

He’s gone where his dad is assistant manager. 

Who knows really how good he is. May never start a league game.

Also never even played for us so No not a success.

Like I said dig a bit behind the facts and you get a better view what is actually being produced and then you can assess what the academy’s success is.

[Rudolf Hucker]

8 minutes ago, Better Red said:

He’s gone where his dad is assistant manager. 

Who knows really how good he is. May never start a league game.

Also never even played for us so No not a success.

Like I said dig a bit behind the facts and you get a better view what is actually being produced and then you can assess what the academy’s success is.

Ignore the facts then. Simon & Garfunkel summed it up very well:  "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"

[ExiledAjax]

7 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

Rueben McAllister

Towler, O'Leary, Morrell, Sam Pearson, Bell, Edwards, Benarous, Lemonheigh-Evans, others that I cannot recall right not.

[Sheltons Army]

28 minutes ago, Better Red said:

He’s gone where his dad is assistant manager. 

Who knows really how good he is. May never start a league game.

Also never even played for us so No not a success.

Like I said dig a bit behind the facts and you get a better view what is actually being produced and then you can assess what the academy’s success is.

Coming from you and your expert views on Semenyo and the like , that’s priceless

[Northern Red]

Belter Red

[Better Red]

2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Coming from you and your expert views on Semenyo and the like , that’s priceless

But right.

Surely you can join the dots up that he has signed for his fathers team without my assistance.

Maybe not….

 

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Towler, O'Leary, Morrell, Sam Pearson, Bell, Edwards, Benarous, Lemonheigh-Evans, others that I cannot recall right not.

Is this a success list? 

[Better Red]

3 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Any player not signed for the first team comes under the umbrella of Academy. Our academy covers what, 7 to 21 years old. If you join at 18, you are under the Academy business structure. Some will join early, some later, but it is what our youth, non first team model is. It seems to be working and in the right direction. No idea why someone is trying to argue semantics when the output is positive overall . 

21 years old signed to be classed as academy success.

Are your sure that is what you wanted to say?

Because if you are then that sounds wrong by any stretch of the imagination.

[nebristolred]

8 hours ago, Better Red said:

 

 

Is this a success list? 

What are you expecting?

If you're wanting another Class of 92 then you're always going to be pretty disappointed.

[ExiledAjax]

8 hours ago, Better Red said:

Is this a success list? 

Yeh it's a list of young men who've gone through or are still in our a academy and are now playing professional football. I mentioned Wollacott as well in an earlier post. Each one is a success for our academy.

[RedRock]

19 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

I suppose the downside of the academy is that we don’t get to see quality foreign additions like Diony and Rodri. 

If though we had invested funds in a decent scouting set up which identified talent of real quality and a Director of Football instead of the Academy, we may not have ended up as being the biggest Club in the EFL not to have played in the Premier League and avoided a £38 million loss with a FFP points deduction hanging over our heads. 

I think that football investment ‘model’ over the past few decades has been a more successful one than an Academy bolted on to a ‘random chaos’ transfer policy led by an administrator. 

Just saying like. 

Anyhows, let’s hope we’ve turned a corner. 

 

[spudski]

Another case of fast tracking player pathway.

Our young 17 yo joining Thornbury to play men's football. 

From the article, I hadn't realised Matt Hewlett was now player pathway director for the academy working under Tins.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bristol-city-prospect-kai-churchley-7498602

[Rudolf Hucker]

As we’re discussing Academy players, here’s the winner for Ross County v Kilmarnock at the weekend, scored by our own Owura Edwards.

(You’ll need to avert your eyes from some appalling challenges for which the ref only awarded yellow cards; by comparison Mark Sykes can consider himself very unlucky to have received a red!)

 

[Better Red]

12 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Yeh it's a list of young men who've gone through or are still in our a academy and are now playing professional football. I mentioned Wollacott as well in an earlier post. Each one is a success for our academy.

Thats not a success list

[Better Red]

11 hours ago, Tafkarmlf said:

Agreed, anyone who who came through and ended up playing pro football is a win. 

My memory is shot but this would also potentially include the likes of Ryan Harley, Marlon Jackson, James Wilson. Joe Edwards. Stephen Henderson, Aaron Amandi Holloway, Wes Burns, Kevin Krans and many more

Heck even Gus Mafuta has had a decent NL career. Ditto Jake Andrews 

A successful academy is not just about the big wins, but how many go on to have a career in football and our academy has been doing that for some time. 

Our bar is to low if that’s what you are calling success.

Lets focus not on the volume of lower league players it’s produced to a degree all academy’s will do that.

This is success about Bristol City and the benefit the players we are producing for our benefit

Success is a player that has -

1. Has come via the academy and joined before 16.

2. Playing at Championship level or higher.

Thats it - it’s pretty simple.

We are Championship club so producing L2 players is ‘Not Success’ anymore

So with that criteria (which I can only see is fair) we have produced in recent times via the our academy - 

Kelly, Vyner, Pring and Conway.

The rest are to be proven.

Yes we are developing players Scott, Massengo, Antoine but they joined very late in the day of there ‘Academy development’  

In fact if you look at the list above we would be better off just bringing players aged 16 - 18 and you could bring Pring into the  above 3.

Only Kelly and Vyner is a true success of the academy and hopefully Pring &Conway will follow as well - I do like both of them.

All I am doing is giving you the facts.

Sure it does not fit with the academy is brilliant view.

But again if the question is are the kids doing well - massive yes

If it’s the academy - It’s ok but that is massively impacted because of Kelly.

Will it improve in future - hopefully yes then it can change how we answer the question.

 

 

 

[Port Said Red]

Dylan Kadji first step into making a breakthrough tonight.