Points lost from winning positions

[Fordy62]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

Well, you’re totally re-writing what I said to suit your own opinion. 
I agree, before the game I’d have happily settled for a 3-3 draw and a point away at Blackpool. 
I’m not complaining about gaining a point and generally playing well in spells. 
I’m just concerned that we had 3 points in the 90th minute, and let in another late goal. 
This isn’t about being critical of gaining a point away from home, it’s about small errors in tactics that have led to us losing points at the death. Again. 

I get the concern, but sometimes things happen that our outside of tactical involvement. No one asked Naismith, Vyner et Al to put together a complete absolute shambles. That’s not drawn on a blackboard. But that is life in football. Got take the rough with the smooth. The end of today was rough granted, but there’s been a lot more smooth this season. 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Fordy62 said:

I get the concern, but sometimes things happen that our outside of tactical involvement. No one asked Naismith, Vyner et Al to put together a complete absolute shambles. That’s not drawn on a blackboard. But that is life in football. Got take the rough with the smooth. The end of today was rough granted, but there’s been a lot more smooth this season. 

Playing out from the back against a team pressing high in the 90th minute with a midfield of slugs and zero pace in the back 8 players, IS a tactical involvement.  

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I get the concern, but sometimes things happen that our outside of tactical involvement. No one asked Naismith, Vyner et Al to put together a complete absolute shambles. That’s not drawn on a blackboard. But that is life in football. Got take the rough with the smooth. The end of today was rough granted, but there’s been a lot more smooth this season. 

You would have thought that what you said above was so obvious it didn’t need to be said but…….,

[Rob k]

I for one can’t see what the issue is with with what’s been written, it’s all fact. 
We are still conceding daft goals and it’s frustrating, that’s surley allowed to be said? 
Nigel Pearson will be thinking exactly the same - I’ve not watched the game but I’m told we should have been 2 goals to the good, we’re improving but clearly still work to be done which I’m sure the management team are well aware of. 

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You would have thought that what you said above was so obvious it didn’t need to be said but…….,

You would have thought that dropping 10 points from winning positions was something that was worthy of discussion, but……… 

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Why keep bringing Lj into the conversation. He’s got nothing to do with my current thoughts on this current team and results. 
I’ve said 100 times that I agreed with Lj being sacked. Don’t know what more you want. 
But it bears absolutely no relation to any of my thoughts on todays game. 
I think it’s odd that people bring this up and think there’s some kind of agenda. There’s not. I like Pearson and I was fully behind his appointment. But sure, I’m querying his tactics - yes, I want to see Scott playing in the middle, not at wing back, and nothing anyone can say on that can change my mind. We won’t have him for long, I want to savour him in his best role. 
That’s got absolutely nothing to do with LJ. If he were still here and playing Scott at wing back I’d be saying the exact same thing. 

Because Harry

Forstly you were incredibly protective and defensive regarding him , and certainly never started critical threads , but appear to have been anti-Pearson from the off and almost sulky at the positivity that’s been around

If it wasn’t for the Scouting initiative I’d say almost ‘anti club’

 

FWIW I think the majority of the fans are sensible both in their current expectations , and the restrictions

I also get the impression that the majority can see what Pearson has done and is doing 

Not everything is running perfectly (I agree signing Tanner and Wilson and having to play AS there doesn’t appear ideal or the plan, 

We are a fair distance from perfect , but it’s good to see fans enjoying honest performances , enjoying seeing the introduction of our ‘own’ players , enjoying those players performing well , the front foot and honest football

Its a shame (genuine) you don’t appear to 

 

I posted in the week -

when was it noticeably brighter or potentially brighter at this level ?

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

You would have thought that dropping 10 points from winning positions was something that was worthy of discussion, but……… 

Crazy pen and a poor defensive header at Hull, how many mistakes could a team make at the back in one game v Sunderland,  Bentley fresh air punching a corner at Wigan and Naismith primarily culpable out of three mistakes for the equaliser today. Senior players making individual errors costing us points. Is that wrong?

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Because Harry

Forstly you were incredibly protective and defensive regarding him , and certainly never started critical threads , but appear to have been anti-Pearson from the off and almost sulky at the positivity that’s been around

If it wasn’t for the Scouting initiative I’d say almost ‘anti club’

 

FWIW I think the majority of the fans are sensible both in their current expectations , and the restrictions

I also get the impression that the majority can see what Pearson has done and is doing 

Not everything is running perfectly (I agree signing Tanner and Wilson and having to play AS there doesn’t appear ideal or the plan, 

We are a fair distance from perfect , but it’s good to see fans enjoying honest performances , enjoying seeing the introduction of our ‘own’ players , enjoying those players performing well , the front foot and honest football

Its a shame (genuine) you don’t appear to 

 

I posted in the week -

when was it noticeably brighter or potentially brighter at this level ?

I agree with all of the highlighted bits.  I’m very happy with the performances this season, the games have been entertaining, I’m behind Pearson and know he’s got a tough job. But I’m not happy at seeing Scott & Weimann playing wing back, and I’m not happy with our sluggish midfield 3. Last season it was semi-acceptable to play Scott, Weimann, Bell there as we had no other options. Not this season. I’m not having it. 
I just don’t see what any of that has to do with LJ. Move on. He left 3 years ago. And, for what it’s worth, if you really want to check through all of my posting history, you will 100% find posts questioning LJ’s tactical decisions too. But you don’t remember those, do you….

[spudski]

16 minutes ago, Harry said:

Playing out from the back against a team pressing high in the 90th minute with a midfield of slugs and zero pace in the back 8 players, IS a tactical involvement.  

That's exactly how I see it as well.

It is tactical. 

What people also tend to forget, is that opposition managers will know we concede late, inform their players and feel upbeat and positive about scoring.

Whilst we in the other hand, know we concede late, yet keep making the same mistakes.

The opposition late in will be buzzing...we will be nervous wrecks.

The only way of changing it ..is by doing something different.

Instead of defending, playing for time, shoring up ...which we have history of being poor at...play on the front foot. Play to our strengths.

Individual mistakes happen, because we allow teams on to us.

I think NP is doing a good job mainly...but this is now becoming far beyond a joke.

[joe jordans teeth]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Is now up to 10. 
3 v Hull. 
3 v Sunderland. 
2 v Wigan. 
2 v Blackpool. 
 

I don’t have the stats, but I’d guess that’s the highest in the league. 

Who cares mate,be thankful that we look like scoring every game because some of us have travelled far and wide knowing that a nil nil is a result

[Numero Uno]

10 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Because Harry

Forstly you were incredibly protective and defensive regarding him , and certainly never started critical threads , but appear to have been anti-Pearson from the off and almost sulky at the positivity that’s been around

If it wasn’t for the Scouting initiative I’d say almost ‘anti club’

 

FWIW I think the majority of the fans are sensible both in their current expectations , and the restrictions

I also get the impression that the majority can see what Pearson has done and is doing 

Not everything is running perfectly (I agree signing Tanner and Wilson and having to play AS there doesn’t appear ideal or the plan, 

We are a fair distance from perfect , but it’s good to see fans enjoying honest performances , enjoying seeing the introduction of our ‘own’ players , enjoying those players performing well , the front foot and honest football

Its a shame (genuine) you don’t appear to 

 

I posted in the week -

when was it noticeably brighter or potentially brighter at this level ?

Now to 12 months ago is chalk and cheese. Back then we couldn’t even compete in games and we’re scrapping for EVERY point. Now we are on the front foot in games, carry a genuine threat going forward and are frustrated at getting a point away rather than thankful we got one.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Numero Uno

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Who cares mate,be thankful that we look like scoring every game because some of us have travelled far and wide knowing that a nil nil is a result

……..and who enjoys giving up their Saturday watching a team get battered every game and literally stealing a point or three? It’s a laugh now and again.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Crazy pen and a poor defensive header at Hull, how many mistakes could a team make at the back in one game v Sunderland,  Bentley fresh air punching a corner at Wigan and Naismith primarily culpable out of three mistakes for the equaliser today. Senior players making individual errors costing us points. Is that wrong?

Nope. That’s all correct. But who’s put those players in those positions to make those mistakes? The buck always stops with the manager, doesn’t it? 
It’s a tactical decision to play Naismith as the middle of 3 cb’s, when he’s never played there before, asking him to play out (which I like, but ultimately it’s a tactic and if it goes wrong it’s on the managers head is it not?) It’s tactical to play him there, where he’s never played before, when he’s more familiar with defending outside of the box or wide (as a full back) and thus stupid lunges in the box to give away penalties is ultimately a tactical decision. 
Re the corners, it’s a tactical decision to play zonal, it’s a tactical decision to not play the only ‘first ball winner’ you have in the squad. 
It’s a tactical decision to play your best players out of position and to sit deeper and deeper in games, it’s tactical to remove the only pace you have in the team and your only remaining threat that the opposition worries about, it’s tactical to end a game with the slowest midfield 3 you’ve probably ever witnessed, etc etc. 

Yes, individuals make errors, but mistakes also arise through tactical decisions. 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Now to 12 months ago is chalk and cheese. Back then we couldn’t even compete in games and we’re scrapping for EVERY point. Now we are on the front foot in games, carry a genuine threat going forward and are frustrated at getting a point away rather than thankful we got one rather than getting battered.

Frustration is ingrained with Life as a City fan   Isn’t that the truth

But there’s some really good things happening and personally I’m really enjoying the progression and play if  Scott , the rapid significance of Antoine , the incredible start for Tommy ... the effort of Weimann , the influence and presence of very good senior pros around the HPC , rather than those that disrupt and set a crap culture , enjoying their impact on the young ones , enjoying quite a lot of the football being played , enjoying listening to Pearson and his straightforward and honest words.....

I still hate when we concede ,especially when we **** up , let alone when we lose ...... but that’s football and City have rarely ever failed to deliver more than our fair share

But im enjoying it and really pleased that clearly many are enjoying it at the moment - That ultimately is the most important thing of all

We are getting back the ‘honest’ sort of Club we do when we are at our best 

 

[Lordofthebling]

Ifs buts and maybes, but if we had Baker and Kalas available...

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, Harry said:

Nope. That’s all correct. But who’s put those players in those positions to make those mistakes? The buck always stops with the manager, doesn’t it? 
It’s a tactical decision to play Naismith as the middle of 3 cb’s, when he’s never played there before, asking him to play out (which I like, but ultimately it’s a tactic and if it goes wrong it’s on the managers head is it not?) It’s tactical to play him there, where he’s never played before, when he’s more familiar with defending outside of the box or wide (as a full back) and thus stupid lunges in the box to give away penalties is ultimately a tactical decision. 
Re the corners, it’s a tactical decision to play zonal, it’s a tactical decision to not play the only ‘first ball winner’ you have in the squad. 
It’s a tactical decision to play your best players out of position and to sit deeper and deeper in games, it’s tactical to remove the only pace you have in the team and your only remaining threat that the opposition worries about, it’s tactical to end a game with the slowest midfield 3 you’ve probably ever witnessed, etc etc. 

Yes, individuals make errors, but mistakes also arise through tactical decisions. 

To be fair Klose’s poor header at Hull and Bentley’s flap at Wigan were not tactical. They were out and out mistakes. Sunderland I’ll agree, we were shambolic at the back all game. Today the main change I would have made was Wilson for Andi in the last 15 but you cannot excuse the goal whatever the criticism of tactics.

[Numero Uno]

On a positive isn’t it some sort of progress that people are criticising tactics compared to 12 months ago (rightfully at the time) mentioning how shit we are? Because this time last season we were ******* dire to watch.

[Simple Red]

We would have been relegated under any other gaffer last Year and Mr Pearson is making me believe in the project and I have loved being at the Gate. I’m happy and a believer!

[Harry]

12 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

To be fair Klose’s poor header at Hull and Bentley’s flap at Wigan were not tactical. They were out and out mistakes. Sunderland I’ll agree, we were shambolic at the back all game. Today the main change I would have made was Wilson for Andi in the last 15 but you cannot excuse the goal whatever the criticism of tactics.

Klose? Really?? 
Klose’s header was excellent and cleared the ball over 20 yards. It was just a shame that he was the one who was left to attempt to close down that 20 yards after he’d headed it clear. 
It was tactical to not have someone patrolling the edge of the box for just such a scenario. 
As for Bentley, well, it’s common knowledge that he’s not the best at crosses. Therefore it’s tactical as to how we set up at corners and we should be protecting him more. 
Mistakes happen. Tactics can help to negate them. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Harry

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

On a positive isn’t it some sort of progress that people are criticising tactics compared to 12 months ago (rightfully at the time) mentioning how shit we are? Because this time last season we were ******* dire to watch.

Well, this is exactly it. 
As I said earlier, it was hard to care over the last 2 seasons, knowing we were shit, knowing there were players who didn’t give a shit. That’s why I feel it’s important to be allowed to be critical now. We are getting there, performances have been good, I’m really enjoying the games and some of the players on show, but this is why it’s frustrating when I see things that we ought to be doing better - what’s the harm in being allowed to raise those concerns? 

I don’t know why I’d get stick about that - and the LJ stuff that some are coming up with is just a ridiculous deflection. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I don't think you can really include points thrown away when you concede the 1st goal. Not so easy to justify.

When you score it but don't win, yeah of course. We came back from behind twice today- resilience that.

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't think you can really include points thrown away when you concede the 1st goal. Not so easy to justify.

When you score it but don't win, yeah of course. We came back from behind twice today- resilience that.

Quite right Mr  P

I posted in the match day thread when they scored the opener 

‘A proper test for us now’

Thats true , it was 1 down to a physical side , the sort historically we’ve caved into , at a ground where we don’t tend to do well

Well we ended up with a point , and nearly 3

As frustrating as the equaliser was we didn’t fail the test , we might not have got an A+ but we didn’t fail

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Harry said:

Klose? Really?? 
Klose’s header was excellent and cleared the ball over 20 yards. It was just a shame that he was the one who was left to attempt to close down that 20 yards after he’d headed it clear. 
It was tactical to not have someone patrolling the edge of the box for just such a scenario. 
As for Bentley, well, it’s common knowledge that he’s not the best at crosses. Therefore it’s tactical as to how we set up at corners and we should be protecting him more. 
Mistakes happen. Tactics can help to negate them. 

From memory, we did have someone on the edge, Weimann, but he switched off.

Happy to be corrected, it’s a few weeks ago.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

From memory, we did have someone on the edge, Weimann, but he switched off.

Happy to be corrected, it’s a few weeks ago.

He had cramp and we had made all three subs……

[BUTOR]

I don’t think we are unique in this league. Every team is something of a basket case. Even in consistency and form, eg. Preston drawing four/five games 0-0, Forest coming from rock bottom to win the play offs… you have to take the rough with the smooth in the championship. We kept two clean sheets and appeared to have sorted our defensive/mental fragilities completely in the last couple of games, today we shipped three and looked all over the shop. That’s this league. There will be similar patterns with every team. Also Bloomfield road is a tough place to implement our type of identity at and we managed it. That’s a really positive step.  

[ralphindevon]

I’m not sure why people are getting angry with Harry.

This is a football forum and when you’re at the top/bottom of any league of stats it’s worth discussing surely? 

[marcofisher]

7 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

He had cramp and we had made all three subs……

Don’t we have 5 subs now? 

[ralphindevon]

At the end of the day, if we’d held on to those 10 points we’d be 6 points clear at the top and I’d already be having nightmares about losing 9-0 at Anfield.

[ralphindevon]

2 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Don’t we have 5 subs now? 

Subs have to be made in 3 blocks*, we’d already used our 3 blocks.

*there are exceptions like concussion subs 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

At the end of the day, if we’d held on to those 10 points we’d be 6 points clear at the top and I’d already be having nightmares about losing 9-0 at Anfield.

Pesky opponents having the cheek to try and equalise

[joe jordans teeth]

8 minutes ago, ralphindevon said:

At the end of the day, if we’d held on to those 10 points we’d be 6 points clear at the top and I’d already be having nightmares about losing 9-0 at Anfield.

We wouldn’t,only Scott Parker can be so lucky to get two cushty jobs and worry about what clobber he is wearing 

Edited August 27, 2022 by joe jordans teeth

[Sheltons Army]

Be interesting how many would swap a 3-3 draw in Championship with a 9-0 humiliation , but at Anfield , in the Prem 

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Be interesting how many would swap a 3-3 draw in Championship with a 9-0 humiliation , but at Anfield , in the Prem 

The accountants would. 

I wouldn't, but they would.

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

That's exactly how I see it as well.

It is tactical. 

What people also tend to forget, is that opposition managers will know we concede late, inform their players and feel upbeat and positive about scoring.

Whilst we in the other hand, know we concede late, yet keep making the same mistakes.

The opposition late in will be buzzing...we will be nervous wrecks.

The only way of changing it ..is by doing something different.

Instead of defending, playing for time, shoring up ...which we have history of being poor at...play on the front foot. Play to our strengths.

Individual mistakes happen, because we allow teams on to us.

I think NP is doing a good job mainly...but this is now becoming far beyond a joke.

In Four Weddings and. Funeral, Kristen Scott Thomas was actually talking about Bristol City's propensity for conceding 90th minute goals when she said "there's a greatness to your lateness". 

I've long thought as you do, in that opposition managers will know they are not out of games late on against us.

An extra bit of a press and intensity will only add to the nervous tension among our players 

Us pressing the opposition, and especially now we have pace up front, would mean the opposition having to be a little more circumspect. Whereas, if we drop ever deeper it just makes it easier for the opposition to ramp up the pressure which in turn will cause the almost inevitable mistake.

What is more galling is the number of times it is our poor play that gifts a goal rather than the opposition scoring through their good play.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Quite right Mr  P

I posted in the match day thread when they scored the opener 

‘A proper test for us now’

Thats true , it was 1 down to a physical side , the sort historically we’ve caved into , at a ground where we don’t tend to do well

Well we ended up with a point , and nearly 3

As frustrating as the equaliser was we didn’t fail the test , we might not have got an A+ but we didn’t fail

Agreed with this Sheltons.

As you say and indeed behind not once but twice and that is a strong test of character. Blackpool not just for us, is a hard away game in general IMO when things are going okay there.

A game despite our recent wins I would certainly have taken a point from pre-game today. Last season we would have lost I think.

Twice recovered, nearly did the full one. Definitely no fail today, seen the equaliser at last on EFL ITV and it seemed like we could have done better on but overall not too unhappy all told.

[The Journalist]

I don’t really understand why Harry is copping it here - it’s a fact that in 15 of our past 16 games we’ve led but only won seven. We keep getting ourselves into a winning position but don’t see it out.

Now, we can all ignore that, put our fingers in our ears and hope it goes away, but I don’t think that’s a ‘normal’ record and suggests to me we’re not matching results up with performances. This team is capable of more.

What I would be interested to know… is there a particular substitution we keep making when leading, either positional and personnel? Are we doing something tactically when ahead?

Others who watch us more often and more closely may be able to answer this, but the general consensus seems to be that we tend to retreat back into our shell when in front? Perhaps we need to keep the game more open so we can keep playing to our strengths?

FWIW, I think Pearson has done a tremendous job in his 18 months or so - when you think about what he inherited and the absolute apathy surrounding the club at that time, he’s done exactly what I hoped. We now have a more balanced squad and a genuinely quite exciting group of players.

For the first time, though, his job is starting to become more about making sure results match the quality we’ve got rather than just fire fighting, building and nursing us through.

For me, we’re entering the next phase of our development under Pearson - which is absolutely a compliment to him that we’re even in this position and should fill us all with excitement… but it also brings a bit more pressure.

We shouldn’t shy away from that or be afraid to call it out - let’s take the next step forward!

[Wanderingred]

All I have to say is that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching City so far this season. I haven’t been able to say that since the first half of the 2017-2018 season. 

[fgrsimon]

It's frustrating because we've been in front in every game this season, so if we had a defence that could 'shut up shop', we'd be top of the league and with a toe in the Premier League door already.

Logically then, if we can get the defence sorted, promotion is a real prospect because up front we have Weimann, Wells, Conway, Semenyo and Martin all scoring and contributing regularly already this season. This is dreamland as far as strikers are concerned.  It looks like we can score goals against anyone in the Championship but can we keep enough clean sheets to compete at the top end? That is the conundrum for NP to solve.

 

[Olé]

15 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

Sky showed it over a longer period on the coverage last week. We were miles clear at the top of the 'points lost' table. Nobody anywhere close. 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, The Journalist said:

I don’t really understand why Harry is copping it here - it’s a fact that in 15 of our past 16 games we’ve led but only won seven. We keep getting ourselves into a winning position but don’t see it out.

Now, we can all ignore that, put our fingers in our ears and hope it goes away, but I don’t think that’s a ‘normal’ record and suggests to me we’re not matching results up with performances. This team is capable of more.

What I would be interested to know… is there a particular substitution we keep making when leading, either positional and personnel? Are we doing something tactically when ahead?

Others who watch us more often and more closely may be able to answer this, but the general consensus seems to be that we tend to retreat back into our shell when in front? Perhaps we need to keep the game more open so we can keep playing to our strengths?

FWIW, I think Pearson has done a tremendous job in his 18 months or so - when you think about what he inherited and the absolute apathy surrounding the club at that time, he’s done exactly what I hoped. We now have a more balanced squad and a genuinely quite exciting group of players.

For the first time, though, his job is starting to become more about making sure results match the quality we’ve got rather than just fire fighting, building and nursing us through.

For me, we’re entering the next phase of our development under Pearson - which is absolutely a compliment to him that we’re even in this position and should fill us all with excitement… but it also brings a bit more pressure.

We shouldn’t shy away from that or be afraid to call it out - let’s take the next step forward!

Here is each sub that has come on this season (league):

From a pure 1s and 0s the last 3 columns are the ones you’re after, but of course they don’t tell us anything tactically or about individual performance.

Pts +/- reflect the change in game-state from the point they entered the pitch to the point they leave (often full-time).  A player like Antoine came on yesterday at 1-2 (L) but end result was 3-3 (D), so we scored 2 (GFOP) and conceded 1 (GAOP), but importantly we went from getting 0 pts (losing) to 1 pt (draw) so Antoine gets +1.

Youll see most subs don’t change the game-state, but overall our subs have had a slightly negative affect.  But can you legislate for a pass from Naismith like yesterday?

[Davefevs]

For info, the reason i collate the info this way is to avoid the way sites like transfermarkt give someone coming on in the last minute of a game won a 3 points in their PPG calculation.  In the same vain Andy King would get 1 pt as would Antoine Semenyo yesterday, when the game states changes in a polar opposite way.

Caveat: 6 games only.  Over a full season you can see some trends, but I wouldn’t be basing team selection on it for example.

[mozo]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Here is each sub that has come on this season (league):

From a pure 1s and 0s the last 3 columns are the ones you’re after, but of course they don’t tell us anything tactically or about individual performance.

Pts +/- reflect the change in game-state from the point they entered the pitch to the point they leave (often full-time).  A player like Antoine came on yesterday at 1-2 (L) but end result was 3-3 (D), so we scored 2 (GFOP) and conceded 1 (GAOP), but importantly we went from getting 0 pts (losing) to 1 pt (draw) so Antoine gets +1.

Youll see most subs don’t change the game-state, but overall our subs have had a slightly negative affect.  But can you legislate for a pass from Naismith like yesterday?

Well Pearson seems to have a very old school approach to subs.

If we're chasing the game he brings on as many attackers as he can.

If we're holding onto a game he brings another centre back or senior player on.

[The Journalist]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Here is each sub that has come on this season (league):

From a pure 1s and 0s the last 3 columns are the ones you’re after, but of course they don’t tell us anything tactically or about individual performance.

Pts +/- reflect the change in game-state from the point they entered the pitch to the point they leave (often full-time).  A player like Antoine came on yesterday at 1-2 (L) but end result was 3-3 (D), so we scored 2 (GFOP) and conceded 1 (GAOP), but importantly we went from getting 0 pts (losing) to 1 pt (draw) so Antoine gets +1.

Youll see most subs don’t change the game-state, but overall our subs have had a slightly negative affect.  But can you legislate for a pass from Naismith like yesterday?

I think if Pearson was to answer my question (publicly at least) he’d almost certainly say “too many individual mistakes”, which is never an untrue statement when you’re conceding goals, but it’s happening too frequently and over a sustained period of time to put it down solely to that isn’t it?

What are we doing tactically when trying to see a game out? What’s the strategy? What’s our decision-making process like when in front? What are the players doing instinctively when placed under pressure?

It’s almost become an embedded issue. I don’t know how anyone could just dismiss this in the way some have re: Harry’s original point.

We’ve all seen City teams in the past who, when they go in front, you just know they’re in control of the situation. It works both ways.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Well Pearson seems to have a very old school approach to subs.

If we're chasing the game he brings on as many attackers as he can.

If we're holding onto a game he brings another centre back or senior player on.

As I said in other threads, I didn’t really watch the game in detail yesterday, but I thought it was to frantic a game to ever feel there wouldn’t be another chance.  However having equalised just after they had a chance to go 3-1 ahead, and then gone 3-2 up, I thought we managed the last 10 mins (before the goal) pretty well.  It seemed quite calm, in the context of the preceding 80 mins.  So a bloody stupid goal given away is so frustrating.

Versus Hull we were the better team in the last 10-15, looked the more likely to get a winner at 1-1, but a lucky deflection cost us.

Things to critique on the subs undoubtedly.

[ChippenhamRed]

12 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

Be interesting how many would swap a 3-3 draw in Championship with a 9-0 humiliation , but at Anfield , in the Prem 

I would love to be able to say in my lifetime that we’ve just lost 9-0 to Liverpool in the Premier League. Because if I can, that means I’ll also have had my greatest ever moment as a fan of City.

[BigAl&Toby]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

So, because we’ve played ok in spells, everything is rosy and we’re not allowed to be critical? 

Indeed. Very impressive. 

Got nothing to do with Johnson and I do actually like Pearson a lot. So I’m not sure why you’d think that. But I guess if you have me on ignore you won’t read this. 

No. It means that in the last 2 years we had shite players who I had no affinity to. Therefore when we lost games, I was of course disappointed, but being critical was pointless, because half the players couldn’t give a shit about the shirt and thus it wasn’t as frustrating because there wasn’t much that we could do to remedy things. 
Now that there are some positive signs, and the squad has a lot more players who I feel are ‘buying-in’ then it’s a tad more frustrating that we’re letting things slip. 
 

Surely there is a place for being critical when we’ve dropped 10 points from winning positions against teams who are on our level. Or are we not allowed to critique anything? 
 

As I’ve explained, I see positive signs. But there are mistakes occurring - why are we not allowed to discuss this? 

@Harry absolutely spot on. We should be allowed to discuss without being accused of anything.

We weren’t at Hull or Blackpool but we were at Wigan and Sunderland. My view of both was that we should have won both. We made far too many simple mistakes - particularly from dead ball situations in the final third.

Thing is far too many accept mediocrity and will grasp onto any aspect of progress and ignore other elements of what they see - or don’t.

Mediocrity - a Bristol disease. And that comes from a born and bred Bristolian………

If proof were actually needed look at the points we’ve dropped. And where we’d be if we hadn’t.

All ifs and buts, but there you go….

[Harry]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

Why use the word slugs ? What is that about. It makes your valid points weaker . 

Because all 3 are slow. They offer zero pace. 

[bcfctim]

16 hours ago, 2015 said:

I really do not miss the Johnson days. Most of the time we were scraping wins and playing on counter attack. We have a side who actually look to effect games now and are worth getting behind. I'd take how we are playing right now above 80% of his reign

We're playing good football at the minute and I'm optimistic about where we're headed but some of the revisionist history over LJ annoys me

Sure it went stale towards the end and it was the right time to move on when we did but we played some great stuff for the first 2/3 years of his reign.

3-1 vs Villa, 4-1 vs Derby, 4-0 vs Sheff Wed, 4-0 vs Huddersfield (twice!), 6-0 vs Bolton, 4-0 away at Fulham...

And that's not getting into the league cup run and the league run surrounding it

3 straight top half finishes, it wasn't all doom and gloom 

We very rapidly went from "a proper manager would get us promoted" to "without a proper manager we'd be relegated" once he'd gone. Says he did a better job than he was given credit for imo

 

 

 

[rednotblue]

This last minute conceeding has been going on for far too long. For all the good Pearson is doing (and in my opinion there is lots on and off the field) this is dogging his tenure.

The biggest issue by far is conceeding at the end of the game. Perhaps they need a physcoligist (sp?) brought in as I think it is now a mental issue more than a football issue.

I hope we crack it soon.

[MC RISK77]

17 hours ago, Harry said:

I agree with all of the highlighted bits.  I’m very happy with the performances this season, the games have been entertaining, I’m behind Pearson and know he’s got a tough job. But I’m not happy at seeing Scott & Weimann playing wing back, and I’m not happy with our sluggish midfield 3. Last season it was semi-acceptable to play Scott, Weimann, Bell there as we had no other options. Not this season. I’m not having it. 
I just don’t see what any of that has to do with LJ. Move on. He left 3 years ago. And, for what it’s worth, if you really want to check through all of my posting history, you will 100% find posts questioning LJ’s tactical decisions too. But you don’t remember those, do you….

Haha looks like you are being stalked mate….very odd.

[Davefevs]

FWIW we’ve conceded 2 goals in the opening 15 mins of games and 2 in the final 15 mins (plus injury time).

We’ve conceded 3 in the 61-75 mins period.

Maybe we ought to be analysing why we haven’t scored in that last 15 min period.  Maybe that’s the outlier?

[ralphindevon]

T

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW we’ve conceded 2 goals in the opening 15 mins of games and 2 in the final 15 mins (plus injury time).

We’ve conceded 3 in the 61-75 mins period.

Maybe we ought to be analysing why we haven’t scored in that last 15 min period.  Maybe that’s the outlier?

That's interesting, I wonder if after last season and the start of this we're so concerned with not conceding that we stop doing the good things going forward? Maybe attack is the best form of defence, after all we are pretty good at that at the moment.

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

FWIW we’ve conceded 2 goals in the opening 15 mins of games and 2 in the final 15 mins (plus injury time).

We’ve conceded 3 in the 61-75 mins period.

Maybe we ought to be analysing why we haven’t scored in that last 15 min period.  Maybe that’s the outlier?

Because we sit back and don't play with the same amount of energy as we do in first halves where score most of our goals.

You only have to watch with your eyes to see the intent isn't as explosive...

As I've said on numerous threads...play to our strengths in the second half. Keep doing what we do, like in the first half.

Keep making chances and kill off games. Don't sit back in one goal leads.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Because we sit back and don't play with the same amount of energy as we do in first halves where score most of our goals.

You only have to watch with your eyes to see the intent isn't as explosive...

As I've said on numerous threads...play to our strengths in the second half. Keep doing what we do, like in the first half.

Keep making chances and kill off games. Don't sit back in one goal leads.

You could be right…I want to watch over a longer period.

Just throwing out a bit of “correlation not causation” out there, but both late goals conceded were away from home.

The two half time leads we had at home were held (to clean sheets).

Could this also be the perils of a smaller squad, ie generally we are bringing on subs who aren’t quite to the level of our starters?

I dunno, just gonna watch a bit more first.

[cidercity1987]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

Because we sit back and don't play with the same amount of energy as we do in first halves where score most of our goals.

You only have to watch with your eyes to see the intent isn't as explosive...

As I've said on numerous threads...play to our strengths in the second half. Keep doing what we do, like in the first half.

Keep making chances and kill off games. Don't sit back in one goal leads.

Looking at our expected goal timeline from yesterday, we didn't have a single chance from scoring the third to the end of the game. Very disappointing not to push on again as we are always vulnerable to a late equaliser

[chinapig]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Could this also be the perils of a smaller squad, ie generally we are bringing on subs who aren’t quite to the level of our starters?

I think so in one sense.

Nigel says he likes to play with high energy but that dissipates when you introduce the likes of James and King who lack the intensity of those they replace.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Looking at our expected goal timeline from yesterday, we didn't have a single chance from scoring the third to the end of the game. Very disappointing not to push on again as we are always vulnerable to a late equaliser

We had 1, Conway’s cut in and shot from the left.

 

 

its a good point though.  We also stopped them for 15-20 mins after we went 3-2 up…just that last 5 mins plus injury time.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Davefevs

[Rob k]

2 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I think so in one sense.

Nigel says he likes to play with high energy but that dissipates when you introduce the likes of James and King who lack the intensity of those they replace.

Hence the slug comment 

[Mad Cyril]

We have lead in 15 of our last 16 games, but won less than half of them......

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You could be right…I want to watch over a longer period.

Just throwing out a bit of “correlation not causation” out there, but both late goals conceded were away from home.

The two half time leads we had at home were held (to clean sheets).

Could this also be the perils of a smaller squad, ie generally we are bringing on subs who aren’t quite to the level of our starters?

I dunno, just gonna watch a bit more first.

 

2 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Looking at our expected goal timeline from yesterday, we didn't have a single chance from scoring the third to the end of the game. Very disappointing not to push on again as we are always vulnerable to a late equaliser

I've been impressed with our offensive play...and so NP...he's alluded to the fact we always look capable of scoring. Yet sees our deficiency in defence.

Why then sit back on leads...it makes no sense.

It's almost a psychological block that needs breaking. The ethos of sitting back defending leads seems ingrained. Fine if you are good at defending...but we aren't. 

[cidercity1987]

7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We had 1, Conway’s cut in and shot from the left.

 

 

its a good point though.  We also stopped them for 15-20 mins after we went 3-2 up…just that last 5 mins plus injury time.

I looked at the E365 timelines, funny how they had Blackpool 'winning' on expected goals. Any idea what the difference is between that and yours above?

Edited August 28, 2022 by cidercity1987

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, cidercity1987 said:

I looked at the E365 timelines, funny how they had Blackpool 'winning' on expected goals. Any idea what the difference is between that and yours above?

It’s not mine. They use different models. Wyscout had us 2.47 Blackpool 1.95.  Had it been Conway tapping in Wells header off the bar instead of an og ours would’ve been even higher. 

[Major Isewater]

21 hours ago, ralphindevon said:

I’m not sure why people are getting angry with Harry.

This is a football forum and when you’re at the top/bottom of any league of stats it’s worth discussing surely? 

I am just a little disappointed at the negativity of the thread considering our recent performances , clean sheets etc .

The players have given their all for the shirt and OK cocked up for the third goal( I am sure Harry never makes mistakes) but they more than deserve our support even so. 
It seems like certain posters can’t wait to stick the knife in and the negativity is a) very boring and b) unhelpful to the atmosphere around the club.

 

[ralphindevon]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am just a little disappointed at the negativity of the thread considering our recent performances , clean sheets etc .

The players have given their all for the shirt and OK cocked up for the third goal( I am sure Harry never makes mistakes) but they more than deserve our support even so. 
It seems like certain posters can’t wait to stick the knife in and the negativity is a) very boring and b) unhelpful to the atmosphere around the club.

 

I can understand your point and would be disappointed if I heard fans venting anger at players at the game.

The place to have a moan is here and the fact is, it’s quite an extraordinary stat that sets us apart from every other team. A bit like the lack of penalties it’s quite odd and worth a discussion.

In this case it’s almost a good thing because so much else is going well. sort this problem out and we’re potential promotion contenders.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am just a little disappointed at the negativity of the thread considering our recent performances , clean sheets etc .

The players have given their all for the shirt and OK cocked up for the third goal( I am sure Harry never makes mistakes) but they more than deserve our support even so. 
It seems like certain posters can’t wait to stick the knife in and the negativity is a) very boring and b) unhelpful to the atmosphere around the club.

 

I can't see any negativity...none at all.

This forum has a tendency to want people for or against a manager.

It's really weird.

It's a reflection of the world we live in now.

Constructive criticism seems to be the new evil. 

You can still be very supportive of a manager and be constructive in your criticism.

After all...this is exactly what the manager and staff will be doing...looking for ways of winning and not conceding when leading.

Why can't supporters do the same? Why is it seen as negative?

Everyone can see we are doing well...improving...going in the right direction. We are now a joy to watch again.

Yet there is still room for improvement. That can be debated surely?

No one is moaning.

No one is saying we are crap.

No one has an agenda to want NP gone.

The majority can see the improvement.

This isn't Facebook or tick toc. But sometimes you think it is...due to the reactions of people who don't seem to be able to comprehend constructive debate...positive or criticism. 

Why can't people see the OP has the best interest of the club at heart, isn't negative...supports the improvement, but enjoys talking about how we can improve even more?

That's exactly what managers do everyday.

 

 

 

 

[Monkeh]

On 27/08/2022 at 17:44, Harry said:

Is now up to 10. 
3 v Hull. 
3 v Sunderland. 
2 v Wigan. 
2 v Blackpool. 
 

I don’t have the stats, but I’d guess that’s the highest in the league. 

We were 1-0 down against Blackpool so it's a point gained

[Harry]

59 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am just a little disappointed at the negativity of the thread considering our recent performances , clean sheets etc .

The players have given their all for the shirt and OK cocked up for the third goal( I am sure Harry never makes mistakes) but they more than deserve our support even so. 
It seems like certain posters can’t wait to stick the knife in and the negativity is a) very boring and b) unhelpful to the atmosphere around the club.

 

Well, I think there’s a helluva lot of positivity on this thread too. I think it strikes a good balance. 
Not sure if you are only reading what you want to read but I’ve quite clearly stated that I’ve enjoyed how we’ve played this season, I’ve enjoyed the players now ‘buying in’, I’ve said I’m fully behind Pearson. I’ve said that I feel this bunch of players are now worthy of support and glad to be rid of the shite that have been calling themselves professional footballers the last few years. I’ve said lots of positives. But yes there is a major negative point to be discussed. Just because it’s a negative point it doesn’t mean I “can’t wait to stick the knife in” or am trying to create an “unhelpful atmosphere”. We’re discussing something that is a matter of fact, not an opinion. Fact is we’ve let 10 points slip from a winning position (and mostly quite late in games). Whilst there’s lots to be positive about, we’re far from perfect, so I don’t see the problem in being able to discuss those imperfections. 
I actually find the “can only be positive” stuff a bit sycophantic to be honest. Surely even the most positive of people can acknowledge that there is a significant imperfection here, wilfully ignoring it and not being allowed to discuss it is rather blind. 

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

We were 1-0 down against Blackpool so it's a point gained

Very true. So we’ve gained 1 point from a losing position this season and lost 10 points from a winning position. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

We were 1-0 down against Blackpool so it's a point gained

1-0 and 2-1 down.

Unsure we can include the Sunderland game either, it's a debatable one IMO.

Yes we turned it round to lead, but when conceding 1st...we went behind and we gained nothing. Hull and Wigan games without a doubt.

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

1-0 and 2-1 down.

Unsure we can include the Sunderland game either, it's a debatable one IMO.

Yes we turned it round to lead, but when conceding 1st...we went behind and we gained nothing. Hull and Wigan games without a doubt.

That was kinda my point of one of my earlier responses on this thread…how do you cater for multiple game-states within the same 90?

No issue with Harry raising it, just struggle with the pureness of the maths because of the above.  Not everyone has to worry about things like this, but I do…it’s a curse!