Lee Johnson

[Kid in the Riot]

51 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Seeing as we were 2nd at Xmas I can’t say I exactly saw it as a great success.

Still comfortably our best season at the level for 10 years, though that probably says more about the club as a whole. 

Overachievement too, if you look at clubs' respective wage bills for that season. 

[GrahamC]

Just now, Kid in the Riot said:

Still comfortably our best season at the level for 10 years, though that probably says more about the club as a whole. 

Overachievement too, if you look at clubs' respective wage bills for that season. 

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

[Harry]

5 hours ago, Percy Pig said:

I presume WSM is referring to the FPA? I have no idea whether Nige played a part in that, can't imagine he would other than encouraging the initiative. 

I guess the one thing you can say is that there has been a move to reset the culture of the club from roots to branches, that includes everything from the academy, playing staff, integrating the women's team into the club as a whole and the wider cultural piece around recognising the past and doing more gesture based stuff for the giants on whose shoulders we stand. 

I guess that entite ethos of integration and togetherness stems from the boardroom and managers office as much as anything. If they don't buy in then it's impossible to further manh causes regardless of how well intentioned or principled. 

But attributing direct credit to Nige on this front is probably stretching things a little far, even for a disciple of the Cult like me!

 

FPA? Sorry, what does this stand for? 
 

In terms of the other things you mention (academy, womens team etc) that all stems from having the training ground built. Nowt to do with Nige. Was gonna happen whoever was the manager.
 

But again you’ve mentioned “recognising the past”. I’m stumped. What has Nige done to recognise the past. 
Sorry - again I’m not trying to argue for the sake of it, I just don’t know what this is referring to and I may have missed something. 

[Harry]

1 minute ago, Percy Pig said:

No worries mate, hasn't come across any way.

The former players association was that particular TLA.

As I said, I wouldn't actually attribute any of the recognising the past stuff to him. Sounds like, from those involved, Richard Gould was the catalyst for some of that and the design in the ground has been that way longer than he's been here. 

 

Thanks for that - I’d never even heard of the FPA. Nice initiative. 
As you say though, I can’t see that as anything ‘Nigel’ related. A quick search suggests it’s a city fan behind it and he approached Gould. 
Hopefully the other poster (WSM) will come up with the goods as to what he means by this ‘embracing of the past’ that Nige has done. 

[Kid in the Riot]

53 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

Wage bill was 14th I think, so six places.

Again, I'm struggling to think of other City managers in recent memory that have done similar at C'ship level... 

[Merrick's Marvels]

35 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Wage bill was 14th I think, so six places.

Again, I'm struggling to think of other City managers in recent memory that have done similar at C'ship level... 

But the 14th highest wage bill doesn't guarantee a 14th placed finish, does it?

That would be far too literal - unless you have stats showing every other club, say in the last 10 years, with the 14th highest wage bill has, indeed, finished 14th. My guess is... they haven't. 

Sure, there's data indicating a broad correlation between income/wages and where you finish in the table. In the Premier League certainly.

But in the Championship, I'd suggest it's just as important how well you spend your income, how well your club is run, how well you make decisions. Things we haven't exactly excelled at in the past and the reason why minnows such as Brentford, Luton, Millwall etc etc have all consistently out performed us. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Thanks for that - I’d never even heard of the FPA. Nice initiative. 
As you say though, I can’t see that as anything ‘Nigel’ related. A quick search suggests it’s a city fan behind it and he approached Gould. 
Hopefully the other poster (WSM) will come up with the goods as to what he means by this ‘embracing of the past’ that Nige has done. 

Neil Palmer. Isn't Scott Davidson involved as well?

Some info here...

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/bristol-city-proudly-supports-new-former-players-association/

[Davefevs]

Just now, Percy Pig said:

A book I read as part of my dissertation thesis called "Soccernomics" delves quite deeply into correlation between wage bills and success. It's pretty conclusive barring the odd anomaly (Leicester, Blackpool promotion from Champ) that position is directly linked to budget.

Obviously better to group similar budgets together, an extra £1000 a week isn't enough to influence position. You'd imagine the league would've be split into 3/4 mini groups budget wise, so our position relative to others in the same bracket would be a more apt comparison. 

I compiled this a while back.

I looked at all the teams that got promoted around the same time as us who weren’t any bigger than us (subjectively).  I added Sheff Utd too as an outlier.

We never finished top of that group, in any season.  That was a slight frustration of mine.

You might need to zoom in to pick up the badges more easily.

[Kid in the Riot]

1 hour ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

But the 14th highest wage bill doesn't guarantee a 14th placed finish, does it?

That would be far too literal - unless you have stats showing every other club, say in the last 10 years, with the 14th highest wage bill has, indeed, finished 14th. My guess is... they haven't. 

Sure, there's data indicating a broad correlation between income/wages and where you finish in the table. In the Premier League certainly.

But in the Championship, I'd suggest it's just as important how well you spend your income, how well your club is run, how well you make decisions. Things we haven't exactly excelled at in the past and the reason why minnows such as Brentford, Luton, Millwall etc etc have all consistently out performed us. 

I didn't say it guaranteed 14th place, did I? Quite the opposite, I highlighted most City managers over the years seem to have achieved finishes lower than where our wage bill has been, this current one included. 

There is a broad correlation though, as you say. It's just curious that there seems to be a bit of revisionism regards that season, though I suspect that relates to form from Jan onwards and what has happened since. 

Obviously agree on the importance of having a well run club which spends its income well. Not having a CEO signing players the manager doesn't want always helps.

[OutstandingMixer]

7 hours ago, Robbored said:

He was pretty much the same at City. Lots of unrest amongst the playing squad who had lost faith in him, that’s if he had any to start with………...

His dad was exactly the same culminating in the appalling punch up at Argyle when he scrapped with the players………

I assume GJ's "punch up" was announced on the official website then...

[Merrick's Marvels]

36 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

You'd imagine the league would've be split into 3/4 mini groups budget wise, so our position relative to others in the same bracket would be a more apt comparison. 

I know the book and its premise. Having met the author, he seemed less than impressed at the way we survived in 1982 btw and I believe it's in this book he describes us as the original "phoenix club". **** him, with all genuine respect to the excellent books he's written - Football against the enemy, Ajax The Dutch The War.

I don't disagree entirely with the bit quoted above. I just think it's a far too crude metric to judge a club by in the Championship - parachute payments alone completely skew the playing field in this division. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Robbored]

9 minutes ago, OutstandingMixer said:

I assume GJ's "punch up" was announced on the official website then...

No - the club posted that GJ had left the  club “by mutual consent”……….

The truth is that he as sacked after the players recused to play for him. The club obviously wouldn’t want to make that public.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Robbored

[Merrick's Marvels]

14 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I didn't say it guaranteed 14th place, did I? 

No but i understood you as saying that by having the 14th highest wage bill but finishing 8th, Johnson had over achieved. 

In a season when most would say that by failing to make the playoffs, having been 2nd at Xmas, the opposite was the case.

Apologies if that wasn't your point.  

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

I know the book and its premise. Having met the author, he seemed less than impressed at the way we survived in 1982 btw and I believe it's in this book he describes us as the original "phoenix club". **** him, with all genuine respect to the excellent books he's written - Football against the enemy, Ajax The Dutch The War.

I don't disagree entirely with the bit quoted above. I just think it's a far too crude metric to judge a club by in the Championship - parachute payments alone completely skew the playing field in this division. 

I’m always a bit torn by wage budget as a single factor.  As we know in all manner of things it’s rarely just one thing that is key, it’s usually a combo that makes up the dynamic.  In City’s case our amortisation bill was large too, so what we know is that although we might’ve kept wages relatively in check (debate, discuss), we paid large fees.  Maybe if you link the two you might say we pay the right wage for the ability of the player, but the wrong fee (if that makes sense?).  Out operational costs are high also.

[And Its Smith]

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

[Kid in the Riot]

12 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

No but i understood you as saying that by having the 14th highest wage bill but finishing 8th, Johnson had over achieved. 

In a season when most would say that by failing to make the playoffs, having been 2nd at Xmas, the opposite was the case.

Apologies if that wasn't your point.  

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

Do you really think OTIB thinks that?

[spudski]

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

[And Its Smith]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Do you really think OTIB thinks that?

No it was tongue in cheek because LJ is a subject that will never be agreed upon!

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

[And Its Smith]

Just now, spudski said:

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

Sums it up perfectly for me. I will credit him for improving players as well and growing value. Others won’t but there we are 

[CodeRed]

25 minutes ago, Robbored said:

No - the club posted that GJ had left the  club “by mutual consent”……….

The truth is that he as sacked after the players recused to play for him. The club obviously wouldn’t want to make that public.

GJ left 13 years ago.

Time to let it go now ......

[2015]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Being in the automatic spots at Xmas & not even being in contention for the playoffs by season’s end is pretty poor, in the end we only finished 3 places higher than we did the season before, in 2009/10 (8 years prior) we were 10th, same in 08/09 so really not too much difference.

I get the argument that it was an overachievement, but realistically by how much? Finishing just 3 places higher?

2007/8, that’s what I call overachieving (4th).

4 points above 7th with 5 games to go and finished 8th. Even SL was quoted as saying around December that season he expected us to be in the playoffs. 

I think LJ's real downfall though was the summer transfer window of 2019 which was really a bit of a disaster.

[Merrick's Marvels]

25 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sorry, you think that finishing 8th with a bottom half wage budget is underachievement because of where we were at Christmas? 

Wait until you find out where we finished last season... 

I'm not aware we were 2nd at Xmas last season and then failed to even make the playoffs. Which is the whole point when discussing that season. 

 

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

Thanks for prompting me to look this up and factcheck - we did indeed finish 11th.

So I'm definitely not buying the argument others seem to be making that finishing 11th with a budget ranked 14th can be classed as over achieving. Unless I've got my wires crossed! 

A fantastic first half to the season, for sure.

But 4 wins and 13 defeats from the last 25 games was appalling. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Merrick's Marvels

[GrahamC]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

pedant alert, we finished 11th in 17/18….assume that’s the season you’re referring to?

That was a disappointing end to a mainly fantastic season.

18/19 we finished 8th, our only finish above 10th since GJ left, who managed 4th, 10th & 10th but apparently wasn’t as good as someone who failed to get out of League One in 4 attempts..

[Tim S]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

LJ is definitely marmite and a conundrum. 

My gut instinct with him, is he is a very good coach, but over complicates things and goes beyond the limits of his playing staff at hand.

He finds a level...gets them playing well for a while after finding their strengths...then he pushes too much on their actual ability. 

It then gets confused...a never ending circle of trying to find a better formula.

I feel if he stopped tinkering at a certain point it would eventually work for him...but he can't help himself.

 

 

Pretty much spot on. Lee is a very good coach, forward thinking and not afraid to think outside the box.

However for me, what let him down at City was his inability or reluctance to strip things back to basics when it was needed. I think its great that a coach looks for new ways to motivate players or trying new methods of training or tactics. But sometimes - you just need to keep things simple. The right pegs in the right holes.... where as Lee would rather try to reinvent the peg or the hole as apposed to just keeping it simple. 

Lee is a very modern coach. But I think he needs a strong number 2 who is a bit old school to help balance things. When he finds the right balance in his coaching team and at the right club - I truly believe it will click into place and he will be successful.

[downendcity]

8 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

Lee Johnson got criticised for the bad things and the good things were apparently coincidence/not down to him. At least we can all agree on that 

I thought that all the good things were down to Mark Ashton.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well at least according to Mark Ashton they were!

[Robbored]

2 hours ago, Tim S said:

Pretty much spot on. Lee is a very good coach, forward thinking and not afraid to think outside the box.

However for me, what let him down at City was his inability or reluctance to strip things back to basics when it was needed. I think its great that a coach looks for new ways to motivate players or trying new methods of training or tactics. But sometimes - you just need to keep things simple. The right pegs in the right holes.... where as Lee would rather try to reinvent the peg or the hole as apposed to just keeping it simple. 

Lee is a very modern coach. But I think he needs a strong number 2 who is a bit old school to help balance things. When he finds the right balance in his coaching team and at the right club - I truly believe it will click into place and he will be successful.

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

[RedLionLad]

16 minutes ago, Deluded Sag said:

They didn't respect him at C*ty because he was parachuted into the job. And your fans certainly didn't respect him when he was a player and accused him of only being on the pitch because of nepotism - I'm genuinely surprised he came back to the club after that. 

Johnson would have been better off staying at Barnsley for longer and learning from managing in the lower leagues, like a certain cretin of a manager in north Bristol. 

Corrected for you

[Phileas Fogg]

37 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I certainly agree with that but his limited man management skills are a hindrance - Players don’t seem to respect him and that’s reflected in their performances on the pitch.

For someone who dismisses "wild speculation" this is quite a bold statement. 

I do believe though, he created problems for himself through recruitment of characters (Tomlin) who were too challenging to manage. Having someone that disruptive and problematic in the dressing room is always going to cause issues that don't need to exist.

I completely understand why he wanted to recruit Tomlin, but it didn't half make things more challenging for him.