Lee Johnson

[Davefevs]

50 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Selling Pack when we did was another bizarre decision of ours 

Bonkers….sign Nagy and Massengo, both new to this country and the type of football…and then sell the player who the whole system was built around.  

[Vidal]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Bonkers….sign Nagy and Massengo, both new to this country and the type of football…and then sell the player who the whole system was built around.  

I remember seeing Nagy v QPR on his home debut thinking he was going to be signing off the century for us, absolutely outstanding……as was Massengo for his first month. What happened?

[Fuber]

1 hour ago, IAmNick said:

I agree with your post in general, but I'm not sure about this. Lee should have been well aware of the squad dynamics, personalities, and the effect of adding more people to a stable (or unstable) group. As well as considering how they'd train or how he'd address and utilise them as the group gets larger and larger.

For someone apparently so well read/experienced it'd be surprising if he really accepted any player into the group, even if they were good. When I've managed teams in the past at times I've actively protected a smaller group from being disrupted with additions, even by someone as or more skilled than some individual members due to the affect it'd have on them as a team.

Not sure I agree with this Nick.

I think LJs view was very much "I know how to setup to counter X team", he even coined the clubs in bag terminology. Then considering how his reign ended, I've also not known another manager having so many rumours of dressing room unrest during their time in charge.

I actually think LJ distances himself too much from the squad - especially how he wouldn't even explain decisions to players per the Fielding interview.

Eventually - that's what got him sacked.

 

[IAmNick]

31 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Not sure I agree with this Nick.

I think LJs view was very much "I know how to setup to counter X team", he even coined the clubs in bag terminology. Then considering how his reign ended, I've also not known another manager having so many rumours of dressing room unrest during their time in charge.

I actually think LJ distances himself too much from the squad - especially how he wouldn't even explain decisions to players per the Fielding interview.

Eventually - that's what got him sacked.

 

Yep you may well be right there. The word "should" was probably doing a bit too much heavy lifting in my sentence!

[TonyTonyTony]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Bonkers….sign Nagy and Massengo, both new to this country and the type of football…and then sell the player who the whole system was built around.  

Purely about money wasnt it? 2/3 million for a player that was slowing down. Understandable, but as you say in hindsight the wrong thing to do

[Rob k]

23 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Purely about money wasnt it? 2/3 million for a player that was slowing down. Understandable, but as you say in hindsight the wrong thing to do

It was the timing - we couldn’t, and didn’t replace him. 

[Robbored]

On 04/01/2023 at 16:24, pongo88 said:

I’m surprised you didn’t suggest Torquay if Gary leaves following relegation 

I assumed that LJ inflated opinion of his managerial skills would allow him to sink so low.

Tbf LJ wasn’t a complete waste of time. He started off pretty well, playing some decent stuff and I for one was happy enough - however over time he began to morph into his father and his selections became more and more bizarre. I remember reading on here that he became known as ‘the tinker man’ and it was virtually impossible to predict what team he’d put out.

I got so wound up with a performance against Leeds on a Tuesday evening that I very nearly when around the concourse to give him both barrels of ‘criticism’ but I was in the Dolman at the time. City lost 0-2 iirc and never laid a glove on them.

After that shambles I lost complete faith in LJ.

Call it a conspiracy theory but I seriously suspect that GJ was a huge influence in LJs reign at City.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Robbored

[lenred]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Bonkers….sign Nagy and Massengo, both new to this country and the type of football…and then sell the player who the whole system was built around.  

One of the few things he got right imho, couldn’t believe the fee when I saw it. And I think judging by MP’s downward trajectory since then you could argue it was the right call.  What wasn’t right was the ‘replacements’ - they weren’t ready / good enough as you point out and it was just a continuation of the ‘throw enough shit at the wall’ approach that we saw from that era.   

[View from the Dolman]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I got so wound up with a performance against Leeds on a Tuesday evening that I very nearly when around the concourse to give him both barrels of ‘criticism’ but I was in the Dolman at the time. City lost 0-2 iirc and never laid a glove on them.

The only City v Leeds game at Ashton Gate on a Tuesday since 1997 was a 1-0 win in 2016/17.

[ScottishRed]

8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I assumed that LJ inflated opinion of his managerial skills would allow him to sink so low.

Tbf LJ wasn’t a complete waste of time. He started off pretty well, playing some decent stuff and I for one was happy enough - however over time he began to morph into his father and his selections became more and more bizarre. I remember reading on here that he became known as ‘the tinker man’ and it was virtually impossible to predict what team he’d put out.

I got so wound up with a performance against Leeds on a Tuesday evening that I very nearly when around the concourse to give him both barrels of ‘criticism’ but I was in the Dolman at the time. City lost 0-2 iirc and never laid a glove on them.

After that shambles I lost complete faith in LJ.

Call it a conspiracy theory but I seriously suspect that GJ was a huge influence in LJs reign at City.

I have often pondered on how much his dad influenced LJ’s footballing decisions, I know neither of them and therefore have no idea but I do wonder.

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, lenred said:

One of the few things he got right imho, couldn’t believe the fee when I saw it. And I think judging by MP’s downward trajectory since then you could argue it was the right call.  What wasn’t right was the ‘replacements’ - they weren’t ready / good enough as you point out and it was just a continuation of the ‘throw enough shit at the wall’ approach that we saw from that era.   

Since confirmed was £750k not £4m.

[GrahamC]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Since confirmed was £750k not £4m.

Are you sure?

Thought Cheltenham’s announcement of how much they got via a sell on made it far higher than that?

[Davefevs]

Just now, GrahamC said:

Are you sure?

Thought Cheltenham’s announcement of how much they got via a sell on made it far higher than that?

Yes, Jon Palmer has written about it since as £750k.

[GrahamC]

Just now, Davefevs said:

Yes, Jon Palmer has written about it since as £750k.

Cheers, my mind must be going!

[petehinton]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

Selling Pack when we did was another bizarre decision of ours 

Another Ashton masterstroke. Was him Who opened the door for it, LJ was beside himself that it was even being contemplated 

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Cheers, my mind must be going!

No, you’re right, story definitely started out as a £4m fee / staged payments, etc, etc.  But over time it’s been revised to £750.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/portsmouth-bristol-city-cardiff-cheltenham-3191012

I do think there might’ve been some good reasons for Ia higher fee getting out into the press!!!

Edited January 6, 2023 by Davefevs

[LondonBristolian]

3 hours ago, Vidal said:

I remember seeing Nagy v QPR on his home debut thinking he was going to be signing off the century for us, absolutely outstanding……as was Massengo for his first month. What happened?

I'm sure the combination of the early injury, a struggle to get fit and then an extended COVID lockdown in a new country played a huge part in his ability to settle. But I think the other substantial factor was that, once Pack left, we really struggled for a settled playing style and system. We didn't really have an established midfield, our defensive shape changed constantly and I just don't think we found a way to get the best out of him. 

[pongo88]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Since confirmed was £750k not £4m.

I wish I didn’t know this. A fee of £4m softened the blow of him going,  but £750 is crazy 

[Davefevs]

17 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

I wish I didn’t know this. A fee of £4m softened the blow of him going,  but £750 is crazy 

Hence why I don’t think some people were inclined to quash that rumour.  £4m one game into the season for a key player sounds much better than £750k doesn’t it.  Mr Ashton didn’t get good fees all the time did he.  Not the only example either.

[italian dave]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'm sure the combination of the early injury, a struggle to get fit and then an extended COVID lockdown in a new country played a huge part in his ability to settle. But I think the other substantial factor was that, once Pack left, we really struggled for a settled playing style and system. We didn't really have an established midfield, our defensive shape changed constantly and I just don't think we found a way to get the best out of him. 

Yep, I think that’s dead right LB. When he played for Hungary he had a settled role in a settled side and knew just what was expected, and he delivered. We never gave him that.

And we still haven’t for Massengo. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing; to be fair, @Vidal is quite right. Initially we thought we’d done some fantastic deals. Nagy and Massengo were the future, Pack was the past. I can remember plenty of posts on here to that effect. How wrong we were!

[Mendip City]

57 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Hence why I don’t think some people were inclined to quash that rumour.  £4m one game into the season for a key player sounds much better than £750k doesn’t it.  Mr Ashton didn’t get good fees all the time did he.  Not the only example either.

Yeah. Funny wasn’t it how we never seemed to lose out on any deals under MA… always got our money back or better… or did we? Mo Eisa was one that stood out for me. Apparently after one invisible season here we turned a profit! Made no sense, the club was in full spin mode back then. 
I’m pretty sure we allegedly got out money back on Engvall… that really would be fantasy stuff. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Mendip City

[REDOXO]

22 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Yep, I think that’s dead right LB. When he played for Hungary he had a settled role in a settled side and knew just what was expected, and he delivered. We never gave him that.

And we still haven’t for Massengo. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing; to be fair, @Vidal is quite right. Initially we thought we’d done some fantastic deals. Nagy and Massengo were the future, Pack was the past. I can remember plenty of posts on here to that effect. How wrong we were!

Not sure I include myself in the WE(s) in the post. 
 

LJ chucked money away backed by Ashton, while SL said my money my choice (which we now know with certainty that is only partially true as FFP is making us sell our best players) 

The utter utter dross signings of which there were many dressed up as world beaters by a couple of total ******* who had no right to be anywhere near our club and profligate spending on wages that went with it were both obviously crazy.
 

Highlighted Particularly when you watched the product. 

[italian dave]

10 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Not sure I include myself in the WE(s) in the post. 
 

LJ chucked money away backed by Ashton, while SL said my money my choice (which we now know with certainty that is only partially true as FFP is making us sell our best players) 

The utter utter dross signings of which there were many dressed up as world beaters by a couple of total ******* who had no right to be anywhere near our club and profligate spending on wages that went with it were both obviously crazy.
 

Highlighted Particularly when you watched the product. 

Fair enough: I’ll accept that you were one thinking Nagy and Massengo were both a waste of time from the very start. But plenty weren’t.

If you’ve read my post above, you’ll see that there’s an alternative narrative to the ‘LJ chucked money away’ mantra, which is that LJ wasn’t in charge of the money, wasn’t accountable for the bottom line, had no financial targets or objectives - those were all Ashton’s.

Its speculation, but do you know any different? You might guess or speculate differently, which is fair enough - what the forum is about, but I’d guess that’s all it is. 

[REDOXO]

Just now, italian dave said:

Fair enough: I’ll accept that you were one thinking Nagy and Massengo were both a waste of time from the very start. But plenty weren’t.

If you’ve read my post above, you’ll see that there’s an alternative narrative to the ‘LJ chucked money away’ mantra, which is that LJ wasn’t in charge of the money, wasn’t accountable for the bottom line, had no financial targets or objectives - those were all Ashton’s.

Its speculation, but do you know any different? You might guess or speculate differently, which is fair enough - what the forum is about, but I’d guess that’s all it is. 

Who knows what the remits were for individuals. However the thought that money was not discussed between the  three people involved plus the CFO and the board of directors is not credible!

Johnson Ashton and Lansdown carry the can, with a supporting cast of half wits and sons!

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

Who knows what the remits were for individuals. However the thought that money was not discussed between the  three people involved plus the CFO and the board of directors is not credible!

Johnson Ashton and Lansdown carry the can, with a supporting cast of half wits and sons!

None of us know I suspect. Which is why I’ve said it’s speculation. 

And I haven’t suggested money wasn’t discussed, just that money wasn’t in Johnson’s objectives. His objectives were all about league position. And you don’t have to have worked in a football club to know that targets and objectives drive an individual’s behaviours and decisions - and if they’re not thought through by the organisation you get the kind of disconnect that (I think) led to a lot of those signings.

Personally I enjoyed much of Johnson’s time at the club. We had success on the field for most of it, we played some great football at times, we had some memorable matches, watched some great players, and became an established top half Championship club for the first time since Alan Dicks. Those were, I think, Johnson’s objectives. 

[O'Garlandinho]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, you’re right, story definitely started out as a £4m fee / staged payments, etc, etc.  But over time it’s been revised to £750.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/portsmouth-bristol-city-cardiff-cheltenham-3191012

I do think there might’ve been some good reasons for Ia higher fee getting out into the press!!!

Not sure i believe either fee tbh. £4m seems too high and £750k to a close rival is pretty bonkers. I think we needed to gamble on improving Pack position of we going to progress, for most of 19/20 season this proved right. 

[REDOXO]

56 minutes ago, italian dave said:

None of us know I suspect. Which is why I’ve said it’s speculation. 

And I haven’t suggested money wasn’t discussed, just that money wasn’t in Johnson’s objectives. His objectives were all about league position. And you don’t have to have worked in a football club to know that targets and objectives drive an individual’s behaviours and decisions - and if they’re not thought through by the organisation you get the kind of disconnect that (I think) led to a lot of those signings.

Personally I enjoyed much of Johnson’s time at the club. We had success on the field for most of it, we played some great football at times, we had some memorable matches, watched some great players, and became an established top half Championship club for the first time since Alan Dicks. Those were, I think, Johnson’s objectives. 

I think you look at things in a way that somehow allows you to think that Lee Johnson was a victim of a circumstance that he was not/tenuously a party too! 
 

He was in fact integral to throwing away money that has had repercussions well past his tenure. 
 

The rest of it is as you say is less than academic speculation! 
 

As for what was happening on the pitch…There wasn’t much to cheer after the Wolves home defeat. We even had the ignominy of players and the club forking out for the direness of one of our particular performances. 
 

We continue to be an established Championship club not because of Lee Johnson but in spite of him!

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Mendip City said:

Yeah. Funny wasn’t it how we never seemed to lose out on any deals under MA… always got our money back or better… or did we? Mo Eisa was one that stood out for me. Apparently after one invisible season here we turned a profit! Made no sense, the club was in full spin mode back then. 
I’m pretty sure we allegedly got out money back on Engvall… that really would be fantasy stuff. 

I can guarantee we lost a shedload on Gustavo Engvall.

Eisa, I maybe miles off the mark, but I didn’t like the amount we paid to a club managed by GJ.

1 hour ago, O'Garlandinho said:

Not sure i believe either fee tbh. £4m seems too high and £750k to a close rival is pretty bonkers. I think we needed to gamble on improving Pack position of we going to progress, for most of 19/20 season this proved right. 

Because they offered him a wage he couldn’t refuse.

[Boston Red]

Milan Djuric. 1.8 mill.

Gustav Engvall 1.6 mill.

Marley Watkins 1 mill.

Liam Walsh 1 mill.

Kasey Palmer 3.5 mill.

Callum O'Dowda 1.2 mill.

That is about 10 million, and most of these guys hardly played. It is the sheer waste of that era that stays with me. 

 

[italian dave]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

I think you look at things in a way that somehow allows you to think that Lee Johnson was a victim of a circumstance that he was not/tenuously a party too! 
 

He was in fact integral to throwing away money that has had repercussions well past his tenure. 
 

The rest of it is as you say is less than academic speculation! 
 

As for what was happening on the pitch…There wasn’t much to cheer after the Wolves home defeat. We even had the ignominy of players and the club forking out for the direness of one of our particular performances. 
 

We continue to be an established Championship club not because of Lee Johnson but in spite of him!

Deliberate or not, you’ve misquoted me. I said “established top half Championship club”. We certainly aren’t that any longer - and hadn’t been before either for 40 years.