Lee Johnson

[AshtonGreat]

16 minutes ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

But what a signing Gustav Engvall was!

With emphasis on the gust

[Northern Red]

13 minutes ago, Rob k said:

And that tells you everything about our recruitment strategy at that point, 2.5m, Pearson’s biggest outlay is half of that so far on a single player.

I'll remain convinced until it's proven otherwise that certain people may have done very well out of that particular deal.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I guess he can only have the final day on what he's offered.

But you don’t have to take what’s on offer.  Imagine LJ (or MA) coming out and saying (without naming players names) “we were in for a player who really would’ve been the icing on the cake, but the deal just couldn’t be done in this window because of the situation other club.  No other players justified the outlay, so we are gonna go with what we have, and work extra hard to get over the line.  We don’t want to waste money on the wrong player.”.

Imagine the message that would’ve sent out.  LJ - I pick the team as if my daughter’s life depends on it.  Also LJ - but I’ll spend money like it’s someone else’s

34 minutes ago, Rob k said:

We were paying 8m for defenders at that point, is 10m for a striker that obscene? And there would have been no chance of signing Toney and loaning him back, that would have been down to Ashton to negotiate properly which I’m sure he would have done 

Yes, when you’ve spent £20m+ already.  The fact we sold Brownhill tells me we didn’t have £10m to spend.  I might be wrong.

[Rob k]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

But you don’t have to take what’s on offer.  Imagine LJ (or MA) coming out and saying (without naming players names) “we were in for a player who really would’ve been the icing on the cake, but the deal just couldn’t be done in this window because of the situation other club.  No other players justified the outlay, so we are gonna go with what we have, and work extra hard to get over the line.  We don’t want to waste money on the wrong player.”.

Imagine the message that would’ve sent out.  LJ - I pick the team as if my daughter’s life depends on it.  Also LJ - but I’ll spend money like it’s someone else’s

Yes, when you’ve spent £20m+ already.  The fact we sold Brownhill tells me we didn’t have £10m to spend.  I might be wrong.

It would have been 5m more outlay in effect and probably less in wages than Wells and a better option to move on for more money,  However We will never know as it didn’t happen so probably pointless talking about it any further, Brownhill was always going when a PL team were in for him and rightly so. He earned his move.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But you don’t have to take what’s on offer.  Imagine LJ (or MA) coming out and saying (without naming players names) “we were in for a player who really would’ve been the icing on the cake, but the deal just couldn’t be done in this window because of the situation other club.  No other players justified the outlay, so we are gonna go with what we have, and work extra hard to get over the line.  We don’t want to waste money on the wrong player.”.

Imagine the message that would’ve sent out.  LJ - I pick the team as if my daughter’s life depends on it.  Also LJ - but I’ll spend money like it’s someone else’s

Yes, when you’ve spent £20m+ already.  The fact we sold Brownhill tells me we didn’t have £10m to spend.  I might be wrong.

There are so many different conundrums, damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. 

Look at the cases of signing Kalas, Palmer and DaSilva. The money we paid and the wages we paid/pay them.

On paper at the time it seemed worthwhile.

Now look at them and compare them with players we have in the team now, who will probably never earn wages they've been on...but imo just as good if not better.

The messages that sends out to a squad is confusing and frustrating. Both for players, managers, CEOs and Agents. 

The transitional period we are in now with wages etc etc is going to to take a lot of getting used to.

As soon as I started seeing Ferraris in the players car park, and compared it to the average performances on the pitch, I knew we were in trouble.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

 

If LJ had left in the summer of 2019, I honestly think his reputation amongst our fans would be significantly better than it was when he left ten months later. 

Yes, quite possibly. On the other hand, if SL hadn't have fired him when he did, and we were 12th, and let him limp on til the end of the season, then his reputation amongst our fans would likely be largely what it is now, maybe a little worse.

SL put him out of his misery sacking him when he did, and saved him, LJ, a bit of "face," and preserved his reputation somewhat. Before he did any more damage to it (sliding further down the table, back whence he first found us, in Feb 16). One might also say.

[redysteadygo]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

There are so many different conundrums, damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. 

Look at the cases of signing Kalas, Palmer and DaSilva. The money we paid and the wages we paid/pay them.

On paper at the time it seemed worthwhile.

Now look at them and compare them with players we have in the team now, who will probably never earn wages they've been on...but imo just as good if not better.

The messages that sends out to a squad is confusing and frustrating. Both for players, managers, CEOs and Agents. 

The transitional period we are in now with wages etc etc is going to to take a lot of getting used to.

As soon as I started seeing Ferraris in the players car park, and compared it to the average performances on the pitch, I knew we were in trouble.

 

Is this why they now park up at the HPC and arrive by coach.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, redysteadygo said:

Is this why they now park up at the HPC and arrive by coach.

Maybe ...it makes more sense to

[Fuber]

3 hours ago, Rob k said:

Fairly sure the owners 29 year old son is in charge of recruiting players at Hibs!! God knows what credentials he has for that role, when will clubs (ours included) start to look at this area as where they are failing rather than the manager all the time. 
easy to slag LJ off here but he had to sell every single one of his best players off. 

That's the remit of every manager at this level - parachute payments aside.

Most of his best players that he sold, he didn't even sign.

Flint, Pack, Kodjia, Bryan, and Reid all had come through or were signed under Cotts.

He gets credit for improving them - as I said he's a decent coach. But his weakness is squad building and man-management. Which are vital in this league.

Only of the players signed under his reign sold at a profit I believe we're Brownhill who he knew from Barnsley, and Webster.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, redysteadygo said:

Is this why they now park up at the HPC and arrive by coach.

I thought they drive to the ground early Saturday morning and then got the coach up to the HPC and then back to AG so they could then go in their separate directions post game.  I’ve seen Kalas’s car and others at AG on match day

[Son of Fred]

4 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

With emphasis on the gust

Lad was all piss & wind

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, Fuber said:

Flint, Pack, Kodjia, Bryan, and Reid all had come through or were signed under Cotts.

Flint and Pack were signed by SOD, for absolute buttons. They were established players by the time Cotts took over.

Joe and Bobby both had first team experience. And Bobby had done very little.

Rose tinted specs. 

Edited January 5, 2023 by SecretSam
Typo

[Vidal]

3 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

Yes, quite possibly. On the other hand, if SL hadn't have fired him when he did, and we were 12th, and let him limp on til the end of the season, then his reputation amongst our fans would likely be largely what it is now, maybe a little worse.

SL put him out of his misery sacking him when he did, and saved him, LJ, a bit of "face," and preserved his reputation somewhat. Before he did any more damage to it (sliding further down the table, back whence he first found us, in Feb 16). One might also say.

Have to be honest I’ve never wanted a manager to go as much as I did LJ, should never have been given as long as he was.

[Fuber]

7 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Flint and Pack were signed by SOD, for absolute buttons. They were established players by the time Cotts took over.

Joe and Bobby both had first team experience. And Bobby had done very little.

Rose tinted specs. 

Correct - I should have amended that all were established under Cotts, not signed by him. Error on my part.

Both Freeman and Ayling were signed by Cotts, and sold by LJ for Peanuts or let go for free, and improved once correctly utilised by other clubs at our level - at the time.

[Mendip City]

34 minutes ago, Vidal said:

Have to be honest I’ve never wanted a manager to go as much as I did LJ, should never have been given as long as he was.

Or given the job in the first place! 

[Fordy62]

19 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Or given the job in the first place! 

Never mix business with pleasure. I bet Lansdown rues that now. 

[red panda]

1 hour ago, Vidal said:

Have to be honest I’ve never wanted a manager to go as much as I did LJ, should never have been given as long as he was.

I assume you are young and were not around for the Pulis era?

[pongo88]

6 hours ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

But what a signing Gustav Engvall was!

I’ve tried to forget about him. There was an interesting thread in 2016 about his transfer, mainly about the purported £500k paid to his agent. Plus, in true OTIB fashion, the claim that his agent was Gary Johnson! 
 

 

 

[alexukhc]

5 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

I’ve tried to forget about him. There was an interesting thread in 2016 about his transfer, mainly about the purported £500k paid to his agent. Plus, in true OTIB fashion, the claim that his agent was Gary Johnson! 
 

 

 

Is Tommy sober yet? 

[Bris Red]

2 hours ago, Vidal said:

Have to be honest I’ve never wanted a manager to go as much as I did LJ, should never have been given as long as he was.

You weren’t the only one - remember these banners anyone? 

[reddoh]

3 hours ago, pongo88 said:

I’ve tried to forget about him. There was an interesting thread in 2016 about his transfer, mainly about the purported £500k paid to his agent. Plus, in true OTIB fashion, the claim that his agent was Gary Johnson! 
 

sadly he wasn't truly Scrumptious 

 

 

[phantom]

I often wonder how LJ would get on as an assistant? 

Maybe time helping out with one of the England youth levels would be good for him? 

[reddoh]

12 hours ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

The wages and transfer fees we were paying - from the time we started shopping at Chelsea onwards - were completely unsustainable for a club our size. Unless every year we made massive profits on transfers by selling our best players. Again, completely unsustainable and complete madness. 

That's the main reason for our financial problems.

Covid just accelerated the time it took for the shit to hit the fan, for our day of reckoning to arrive. 

Mark Ashton has a lot to answer for, as do the people who let him get away with it. 

ah airplane great film

[Kid in the Riot]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

This really bugs me.  Why didn’t he say no then?

As per a chat with our mutual friend…LJ wanted Toney that window.  Well, guess what?  DMac went on Sky and said he wanted £10m and player loaned back to see if Posh could get promoted.  Ok, some of that was DMac bluster, but essentially we couldn’t afford what LJ wanted in the winter window.  So you start to explore other avenues.

Even if LJ himself told me himself he didn’t want Wells, I wouldn’t believe him.  He might have wanted Toney over Wells, wouldn’t we all.  But for a manager who has gone on record saying he has final say (not just the once either) to say he had a player hoisted onto him is bullshit imho. Not having a go at you btw.  We broke our recruitment model for Wells.  LJ knew what he was getting.

Again, LJ will have final say.

Was excellent on his debut, having not played for 6 months, but LJ flogged him, subbed him because he was knackered, and it ended up in a dressing room argument.  He signed Benkovic and didn’t play him too.

 

I like aspects of LJ, but I just don’t buy the “it was a Mark Ashton signing”, much as I’d love to shift 100% of the blame onto him!

There's blame to go around everywhere, of course LJ included. But it is true to say some signings were just not his. Engvall, Szmodics and Adelakun to name a few.

[italian dave]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

But you don’t have to take what’s on offer.  Imagine LJ (or MA) coming out and saying (without naming players names) “we were in for a player who really would’ve been the icing on the cake, but the deal just couldn’t be done in this window because of the situation other club.  No other players justified the outlay, so we are gonna go with what we have, and work extra hard to get over the line.  We don’t want to waste money on the wrong player.”.

Imagine the message that would’ve sent out.  LJ - I pick the team as if my daughter’s life depends on it.  Also LJ - but I’ll spend money like it’s someone else’s

 

Interesting that you put it like that Dave. I’ve long had a theory (entirely speculation of course) that the Ashton/Johnson roles came with some clear lines of accountability: Ashton’s was financial, and Johnson’s was performance on the pitch - and that arrangement was a big reason for the disconnect that caused so many problems.

So, Ashton’s bottom line is financial. To make more from selling players than we spend acquiring them. So he scouts round for talent in the lower leagues and abroad and finds the likes of Eisa, Adelukan, Engvall etc etc - on the basis that if just one out of 10 becomes the next Webster then he meets his targets. 

Meanwhile, Johnson’s bottom line is results and league position. His concern isn’t the money at all (that’s Ashton’s concern). So he’s not going to say no without a very good reason to actively reject an individual player - having another potential talent isn’t going to do his objectives and his targets any harm, and the money side isn’t an issue.

Ironically, I think that scenario did end up being a big part of Johnson’s downfall. He always seemed to get better results when he had a smaller squad, a settled side - and even when his options were hugely limited by injury he seems to be able to get the best out of those limited options. He struggled when he had too many. 

And I’m still convinced that, while he was OK with the sales of Kelly, Reid, Kodjia (because he had a plan B in place) he wasn’t OK with the Brownhill or Webster departures. And those were part of that disconnect - they were about Ashton’s bottom line entirely and hugely (adversly) affected Johnson’s. 

As I say, pure speculation, but that’s the case for most of not all of the posts on these things. 

[Davefevs]

@italian davelots of logic in that.

re Webster - I believe the story that went “Mark - if we are gonna sell Webster this summer, we do it early, ok?”

So I can feel for LJ on this.

[One Team]

22 hours ago, Big C said:

Hopefully it will be like the Ferguson situation at Peterbro and we will have him back soon

It would be very SL to do exactly this. 

[Port Said Red]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

@italian davelots of logic in that.

re Webster - I believe the story that went “Mark - if we are gonna sell Webster this summer, we do it early, ok?”

So I can feel for LJ on this.

I still think the worst was Brownhill, at least we had some sort of succession plan when we sold some of the others, but LJ, built almost everything around Brownhill and selling him on the last day of a January transfer window left us looking like a boat without a rudder or oars.

[Rob k]

12 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I still think the worst was Brownhill, at least we had some sort of succession plan when we sold some of the others, but LJ, built almost everything around Brownhill and selling him on the last day of a January transfer window left us looking like a boat without a rudder or oars.

Selling Pack when we did was another bizarre decision of ours 

[IAmNick]

8 hours ago, italian dave said:

Meanwhile, Johnson’s bottom line is results and league position. His concern isn’t the money at all (that’s Ashton’s concern). So he’s not going to say no without a very good reason to actively reject an individual player - having another potential talent isn’t going to do his objectives and his targets any harm, and the money side isn’t an issue.

 

I agree with your post in general, but I'm not sure about this. Lee should have been well aware of the squad dynamics, personalities, and the effect of adding more people to a stable (or unstable) group. As well as considering how they'd train or how he'd address and utilise them as the group gets larger and larger.

For someone apparently so well read/experienced it'd be surprising if he really accepted any player into the group, even if they were good. When I've managed teams in the past at times I've actively protected a smaller group from being disrupted with additions, even by someone as or more skilled than some individual members due to the affect it'd have on them as a team.

Edited January 6, 2023 by IAmNick