Lee Johnson

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Glen hump said:

Even Wilbraham didn’t exactly give him a glowing reference and he was a top professional 

Saw that inteview, Wilbs was careful what he said but plainly thought LJ was not someone he could take seriously. I've heard, and heard of, other players take the piss also.

He's a blagger and doesn't in general command respect as a football manager, because he is is the reincarnation of David Brent.

Blamed losing 3 league games at Hibernian to inferior opposition on "fixture congestion", caused by a "European run" which involved beating a team from Andorra and another from a  small Swiss town.

There are 2 teams in Scotland "bigger" than Hibs, and 2 others more less the same, and yet he managed to lose more games than he won during around 50 games in Scotland, despite being given, by their standards (where have we heard this before), a transfer budget which far exceeded previous managers.

Measured by win ratio, his most successful period as a manager was at Sunderland - where with the resources of that club in division three Mike Bassett would have got them promotion. And yet Sunderland sacked him while they were in the play-off positions. Why? It came immediately after a 6-0 defeat, but there was more to it than that. 

Wherever he goes, he's an unusually divisive figure, but judging by what I've read, mainly disliked and/or ridiculed. How can somebody possibly be a successful manager under those circumstances?

If Fleetwood are mad enough to gve him the job, they will probably be relegated, or he will be sacked before that happens. I'd like to say that will then be the end of it, but he will pop up again at somewhere like Newmarket having bamboozled some unfortunate non league chairman, still convinced he's a future England manager in waiting.

 

[Glen hump]

2 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Saw that inteview, Wilbs was careful what he said but plainly thought LJ was not someone he could take seriously. I've heard, and heard of, other players take the piss also.

He's a blagger and doesn't in general command respect as a football manager, because he is is the reincarnation of David Brent.

Blamed losing 3 league games at Hibernian to inferior opposition on "fixture congestion", caused by a "European run" which involved beating a team from Andorra and another from a  small Swiss town.

There are 2 teams in Scotland "bigger" than Hibs, and 2 others more less the same, and yet he managed to lose more games than he won during around 50 games in Scotland, despite being given, by their standards (where have we heard this before), a transfer budget which far exceeded previous managers.

Measured by win ratio, his most successful period as a manager was at Sunderland - where with the resources of that club in division three Mike Bassett would have got them promotion. And yet Sunderland sacked him while they were in the play-off positions. Why? It came immediately after a 6-0 defeat, but there was more to it than that. 

Wherever he goes, he's an unusually divisive figure, but judging by what I've read, mainly disliked and/or ridiculed. How can somebody possibly be a successful manager under those circumstances?

If Fleetwood are mad enough to gve him the job, they will probably be relegated, or he will be sacked before that happens. I'd like to say that will then be the end of it, but he will pop up again at somewhere like Newmarket having bamboozled some unfortunate non league chairman, still convinced he's a future England manager in waiting.

 

Totally agree, he’s a charlatan 

[Leveller]

8 minutes ago, Glen hump said:

Totally agree, he’s a charlatan 

Chances are, he’ll take the job, improve them slightly, avoid relegation, and everybody will still be arguing whether he’s average or terrible!

[Glen hump]

Just now, Leveller said:

Chances are, he’ll take the job, improve them slightly, avoid relegation, and everybody will still be arguing whether he’s average or terrible!

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, Bedred31 said:

There’s route one and then there was Beck. Most soul destroying football I ever watched. His tactic, actually, was to over water the corners, so that the ball would stop when the goalkeeper punted it forwards. The left/right back would invariably kick it into touch, whereupon Cambridge would produce a long throw into the box. That was literally it- big kick, splash, throw into the box. I liked Wimbledon but this was truly awful.

I’m sure you’re right about the watering - he probably did that and the long grass thing too. It doesn’t alter my point about LJ.

[Nogbad the Bad]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I don’t think he’s all that myself. I’m just trying to calm the vitriol. I made a very reasoned post about why he doesn’t have a promotion on his CV. It’s a criticism levelled at him which is unfair. 
Yes, please go ahead and happily say that he spent a lot of money for us, that he has ‘player relations’ problems, speaks in riddles etc, that’s all fine. But to criticise someone for not having a promotion in 5 jobs, where 1 was impossible, 2 were unachievable, 1 was very close and the other showing steady improvement, is a criticism that is unwarranted. 

In which case you're spending an awful lot of time & effort writing posts in support of a coach you apparently don't rate highly.

You're also seeing reasonable points as 'vitriol', and using throwaway comments to dismiss them. This suggests you do rate him in so much as you are continually moved to write posts countering criticisms of him; in fact you seem about the keenest here to argue in his favour.

If you're now saying you don't think much of him yourself then why have you bothered, unless you've got an inordinate amount of time on your hands and relish an argument?

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Nogbad the Bad

[Alessandro]

I know it’s international break - but am I the only one completely bored to shit by all this LJ bollocks?!

Listen: you either hate or you don’t hate him - save your energy trying to persuade your opposite who is NEVER going to change their opinion - regardless of how you paint the past or any future success or failures.
 

Very boring, even by this forums standard, going round in circles year after year - LJ is living rent free in too many heads 

[cidercity1987]

11 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I know it’s international break - but am I the only one completely bored to shit by all this LJ bollocks?!

Listen: you either hate or you don’t hate him - save your energy trying to persuade your opposite who is NEVER going to change their opinion - regardless of how you paint the past or any future success or failures.
 

Very boring, even by this forums standard, going round in circles year after year - LJ is living rent free in too many heads 

There's one bloke on here, anti Johnson, haven't seen him on any other thread for years 

[Shauntaylor85]

37 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I know it’s international break - but am I the only one completely bored to shit by all this LJ bollocks?!

Listen: you either hate or you don’t hate him - save your energy trying to persuade your opposite who is NEVER going to change their opinion - regardless of how you paint the past or any future success or failures.
 

Very boring, even by this forums standard, going round in circles year after year - LJ is living rent free in too many heads 

Do you not think it’s because he was given start after start as a player when he didn’t deserve to, still maintain we lost the play off final because he had to come on didn’t he…..we should have shifted Carey to right back and bring Vasko on as we lacked the physical presence Mccombe gave us and also losing Marv to RB showed the tactical limitation of his father and perceived favouritism. I remember going to QPR away that season when we lost 3.0  our fans were booing him! He was left on when he was dreadful  

The whole appointment and backing/support he had throughout streaky run after streaky run was crazy! Should never ever have been given the manager role IMO. He also got us into a right mess by signing average player after average player on crazy fees and wages along with a certain CEO now in East Anglia. Holden should never have happened but the damage was already done.  

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Shauntaylor85

[Shauntaylor85]

26 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

There's one bloke on here, anti Johnson, haven't seen him on any other thread for years 

The debate is only here because the owners were so full of praise for Johnson no matter what. He was backed more than any city manager I can remember. We wouldn’t be debating this if there wasn’t a perceived lack of praise for Nige who has been dealt a much harder job than his two predecessors. 

[Olé]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

I get why lots of people don’t like him, but there is a fair amount of unfair criticism- this promotions thing being one. 

Agree and as I'd said the "he's good at interviews" is the other one (like that's not a requirement of literally every interview). 

Like his feast and famine tenure, LJ will always be an incredibly polarising figure. There is always complete lack of balance.

I always felt he gave us some of the best away days I've ever seen in one tenure but it was always only half the story with LJ.

• Home vs Away
• First Half of season vs Second Half
• Winning Streaks vs Losing Streaks

If he had presided over the same outcome but all mixed up across those trends I've no doubt he'd be more highly regarded.

He also gets too easily tarred by the Mark Ashton brush. LJ didn't play Engvall, Eisa, Adelakun and eventually Diony. He knew.

[Nogbad the Bad]

24 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

I know it’s international break - but am I the only one completely bored to shit by all this LJ bollocks?!

Listen: you either hate or you don’t hate him - save your energy trying to persuade your opposite who is NEVER going to change their opinion - regardless of how you paint the past or any future success or failures.
 

Very boring, even by this forums standard, going round in circles year after year - LJ is living rent free in too many heads 

Most threads will be boring to some but if you find LJ chat so pointless there's a big clue in the title of the thread to help you to avoid it.

[Alessandro]

38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Most threads will be boring to some but if you find LJ chat so pointless there's a big clue in the title of the thread to help you to avoid it.

It’s a forum isn’t it - came, saw there was nothing new being said, left my opinion and left thread - being pulled back in with quote replies!

Please no need to reply to prove my point that no one is changing their minds. But you feel free to keep banging your heads against that brick wall, enjoy!

[Leveller]

3 hours ago, NickJ said:

Saw that inteview, Wilbs was careful what he said but plainly thought LJ was not someone he could take seriously. I've heard, and heard of, other players take the piss also.

He's a blagger and doesn't in general command respect as a football manager, because he is is the reincarnation of David Brent.

Blamed losing 3 league games at Hibernian to inferior opposition on "fixture congestion", caused by a "European run" which involved beating a team from Andorra and another from a  small Swiss town.

There are 2 teams in Scotland "bigger" than Hibs, and 2 others more less the same, and yet he managed to lose more games than he won during around 50 games in Scotland, despite being given, by their standards (where have we heard this before), a transfer budget which far exceeded previous managers.

Measured by win ratio, his most successful period as a manager was at Sunderland - where with the resources of that club in division three Mike Bassett would have got them promotion. And yet Sunderland sacked him while they were in the play-off positions. Why? It came immediately after a 6-0 defeat, but there was more to it than that. 

Wherever he goes, he's an unusually divisive figure, but judging by what I've read, mainly disliked and/or ridiculed. How can somebody possibly be a successful manager under those circumstances?

If Fleetwood are mad enough to gve him the job, they will probably be relegated, or he will be sacked before that happens. I'd like to say that will then be the end of it, but he will pop up again at somewhere like Newmarket having bamboozled some unfortunate non league chairman, still convinced he's a future England manager in waiting.

 

As a matter of record, LJ was Sunderland’s third manager in League One. Jack Ross got them into the playoffs but they didn’t get promoted. Phil Parkinson didn’t even manage the playoffs. LJ got into the playoffs but didn’t get promoted. Alex Neil got into the playoffs and got promoted. Nobody got them automatic promotion. So LJs record was little different from their other three managers.

[Numero Uno]

16 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yeh but you got in a bit too quick too ... Pep won promotion in 2008 as manager of the Barcelona B team ... 

That was over ten years ago though, that was the criteria

[Shauntaylor85]

2 hours ago, Leveller said:

As a matter of record, LJ was Sunderland’s third manager in League One. Jack Ross got them into the playoffs but they didn’t get promoted. Phil Parkinson didn’t even manage the playoffs. LJ got into the playoffs but didn’t get promoted. Alex Neil got into the playoffs and got promoted. Nobody got them automatic promotion. So LJs record was little different from their other three managers.

Have heard many people in the game feeling he’s a bit of an in joke. Not someone we ever would welcome back. I’d sooner have Holloway! 

[Leveller]

26 minutes ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Have heard many people in the game feeling he’s a bit of an in joke. Not someone we ever would welcome back. I’d sooner have Holloway! 

Not really sure why you’re quoting me there, when I was just pointing out to NickJ that his comment about Sunderland being a doddle was a fallacy.

[Harry]

7 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

Bit dismissive Harry, where is this vitriol?

- that I mention LJ's 3 sackings in 3 years?

-  that he is reportedly 3rd choice for Fleetwood after Robinson & Wild?

- that LJ seems remarkably persuasive at interview but his record of bringing success afterwards is not good and it's surprising if potential employers haven't noticed this?

All seems perfectly reasonable (and non-vitriolic) to me!

Having dismissed my post with a a 5 second response (that's sufficient to get a number of 'likes' apparently) perhaps you'd like to explain why you view the points raised above as vitriolic because I don't see it.

 

 

If you can’t see the vitriol in what you wrote then I think you’re too far down the ‘Despise LJ’ rabbit hole that there’s little hope for you to ever realise it. 

[Harry]

6 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

In which case you're spending an awful lot of time & effort writing posts in support of a coach you apparently don't rate highly.

You're also seeing reasonable points as 'vitriol', and using throwaway comments to dismiss them. This suggests you do rate him in so much as you are continually moved to write posts countering criticisms of him; in fact you seem about the keenest here to argue in his favour.

If you're now saying you don't think much of him yourself then why have you bothered, unless you've got an inordinate amount of time on your hands and relish an argument?

 

LJ has been and always will be a very polarising character. 
And funnily enough I’m actually somewhere in the middle - which is a rare place in the LJ debate. 
I’ve not staunchly defended LJ in any way but I am also not in the habit of throwing attacks at him - attacks which I feel are not justified (ie the ‘no promotions’, the ‘must be good at interviews’ nonsense). 
 

I said at the time of his departure from us that I felt it was the right time. So I didn’t want him to stay here and I wouldn’t want him back. But many of the attacks on him are rather far-reaching and in many cases (not all) come from a position of personal dislike from his playing days. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Harry

[1960maaan]

3 hours ago, Shauntaylor85 said:

Have heard many people in the game feeling he’s a bit of an in joke. Not someone we ever would welcome back. I’d sooner have Holloway! 

Crazy talk , I'd have literally anyone before Holloway , but only almost anyone before LJ

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, Leveller said:

He very probably did. Let’s not forget that LJ was born in Newmarket and spent his childhood watching Gary who was assistant to John Beck at Cambridge United, during their phenomenal rise up the league.

Now Beck’s tactics may have been derided, but they were based on analysis that was light years ahead of most other coaches, which led him to believe that direct football was the route to success. And of course it was, up to a point.

As you well know, Beck used every trick in the book to find “marginal gains”, tricks which have become legend, many being to unsettle the opposition before they even got on the pitch. One of his tricks was to order the groundsmen to leave the grass longer in the corners of the pitch, so the ball would hold up more, helping his wingers get in crosses to Dion Dublin and John Taylor.

So it’s highly likely that LJ’s views on marginal gains derived from his experience of Beck’s methods, either directly or via Gary. And he would have been aware that other managers might follow Beck’s example so the grass would be at different lengths in different places. Thus, relying on players’ instinct during the warm up could be seen as over simplistic and a bit late in the day.

I think the story originated in this article by Gregor McG in 2017, actually an interview with McAllister.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/jamie-mcallister-explains-bristol-city-704346

‘The Bristol Post asked how the different height of the grass might influence the game plan.

"It can do [influence a tactic]. If the grass is a bit long then you might be able to leave it [the ball] in the corner a bit more, it'll hold up," explained McAllister.’

The article also uses the “marginal gains” phrase. So the echoes of John Beck are clear. JB wasn’t popular, but his attention to detail clearly left its mark.

Sorry for the late reply, been drinking with fellow OTIB poster @1960maaan, lovely evening chatting footie, music, etc.  Cheers Maan, must do it again.

re Beck, very well known tactic employed by him…but nobody measured the grass, he just kept it long in the corners so they could hit the corners for territory, create throw-ins deep in the opponents half.

The measurement by LJ is just trying to be clever, full stop.

Under the current laws you can’t even leave the grass as long as the likes of Beck wanted (30mm max)…and it is supposed to be a consistent length too.

McAllister is completely correct that longer grass will make the ball hold up more….no shit Sherlock.

But can you imagine training pre-match all week for a high tempo, quick passing game to turn up, Lee get his “micrometer” out and declare “**** it lads, the blades of grass are 29.5mm, abandon everything we’ve prep’d this week, we are gonna ping the corners”.

Seriously?

Its bollax!  You do not need to measure the length of the grass to conclude that.

He might say “chase everything into the corners the ball might hold up a bit more”.

I’ve just got visions of LJ and his “sandwich box” taking measurements around the pitch, must’ve taken him hours, and then going back into the dressing room to relay results to the team…I can imagine the reaction.  Ask yourself how he relayed the grass lengths on an inconsistent surface with bare patches?

He’s conned people, trying to create an air of superiority, “I’m cleverer than you”.  He undoubtedly is a better football brain than me, but he’s having us in with this.

(I’ve had a few Golds, so my post might be a bit rude, sorry )

 

 

[transfer reader]

9 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

In which case you're spending an awful lot of time & effort writing posts in support of a coach you apparently don't rate highly.

You're also seeing reasonable points as 'vitriol', and using throwaway comments to dismiss them. This suggests you do rate him in so much as you are continually moved to write posts countering criticisms of him; in fact you seem about the keenest here to argue in his favour.

If you're now saying you don't think much of him yourself then why have you bothered, unless you've got an inordinate amount of time on your hands and relish an argument?

 

"He's a blagger, charlatan, fraud"

"Incompetent, inept" any other variation of those

"He's conned people"/"fooled his way into a job"

 

No vitriol there at all is there...

Or perhaps if we look back further the personal attacks on his height?

Nothing there either?

 

Stop lying and pretending it isn't there just because you don't like him, have the self respect and integrity to be able to concede that it exists, regardless of you own views on him as a coach/manager. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

14 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Gary Rowett, Neil Harris & Mark Hughes are 3 to start off with.

Neil Harris promoted Millwall to the Championship as their manager in 2017 ... oops  

[BS4 on Tour...]

12 hours ago, Leveller said:

Let’s not forget that LJ was born in Newmarket and spent his childhood watching Gary who was assistant to John Beck at Cambridge United, during their phenomenal rise up the league.

So it’s highly likely that LJ’s views on marginal gains derived from his experience of Beck’s methods, either directly or via Gary.

LJ was 9 years old when John Beck was appointed manager of Cambridge and he was 11 years old when Beck was dismissed, so surely it’s highly unlikely that a lad at that tender age would be worried about ‘marginal gains’ etc?!

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, transfer reader said:

"He's a blagger, charlatan, fraud"

"Incompetent, inept" any other variation of those

"He's conned people"/"fooled his way into a job"

 

No vitriol there at all is there...

Or perhaps if we look back further the personal attacks on his height?

Nothing there either?

 

Stop lying and pretending it isn't there just because you don't like him, have the self respect and integrity to be able to concede that it exists, regardless of you own views on him as a coach/manager. 

Vitriol would include abusive or malicious language.

Words such as blagger, charlatan, inept, incompetent, aren’t vitriolic they are simple assessments and/or opinions. 
 

 

[transfer reader]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Vitriol would include abusive or malicious language.

Words such as blagger, charlatan, inept, incompetent, aren’t vitriolic they are simple assessments and/or opinions. 
 

 

They are indeed very simple

[fgrsimon]

17 hours ago, Leveller said:

As you well know, Beck used every trick in the book to find “marginal gains”, tricks which have become legend, many being to unsettle the opposition before they even got on the pitch. One of his tricks was to order the groundsmen to leave the grass longer in the corners of the pitch, so the ball would hold up more, helping his wingers get in crosses to Dion Dublin and John Taylor.

Dave Brailsford at British was I think the biggest proponents of 'marginal gains' theory. However as it's subsequently turned out that might have been other, ahem, "methods" being used.....

[Nogbad the Bad]

14 hours ago, Harry said:

If you can’t see the vitriol in what you wrote then I think you’re too far down the ‘Despise LJ’ rabbit hole that there’s little hope for you to ever realise it. 

Nope, there's no vitriol in my post, and contrary to your assertion that you know my mind better than I do myself I have never 'despised' LJ either as a player or manager.

[Leveller]

9 hours ago, NickJ said:

Vitriol would include abusive or malicious language.

Words such as blagger, charlatan, inept, incompetent, aren’t vitriolic they are simple assessments and/or opinions. 
 

 

I would suggest the average reader would consider those negative assessments as abusive too.

[Glen hump]

10 minutes ago, Leveller said:

I would suggest the average reader would consider those negative assessments as abusive too.

If you think those words are abusive then you must get offended very easily.