Interesting Statistic

[Gazred]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Which has no bearing on the result. Clubs often win matches with far less possession than their opponents.

Why can't you just say it's meaningless to you and let the rest of us make our own minds up.

You keep putting it next to winning or losing which demonstrates you don't really understand it anyway.

[grifty]

2 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Why can't you just say it's meaningless to you and let the rest of us make our own minds up.

You keep putting it next to winning or losing which demonstrates you don't really understand it anyway.

I think that's relevant to pretty much every post he makes on any topic on here...

[Robbored]

39 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

If you just rely on possession numbers, then yeah. But that would be strange anyway.

If you're 1-0 down to a side that can dominate possession , then it can have a big bearing on results

Agree with your post, and stats can give you insight into games but you can't use just one set of stats.
The one thing I will say is about your last sentence. Swansea dominate possession but are not a top side, but they can show that it's not everything. They've conceded more than us, have worse goal difference and are lower in the table yet consistently win on possession numbers. 
Stats used properly can help, they can tell you what you aren't doing as much as what you are. As you say, we often have less possession in games, that stat alone means little, but it can tell you how we generally go about games. 
 

Of course specialised stats are extremely helpful but possession stats tell you very little. 

The monitor vests that players wear under their shirts record an amazing about statistical information from heartbeat, to sprints, distance covered, tackles made, pass completion percentages - the statisticians can see when a player is becoming fatigued but are forbidden to pass any information onto the coaches during matches - one part of the fourth officials remit.

So yeah specialised stats are valuable all except the possession stats.

[1960maaan]

13 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Of course specialised stats are extremely helpful but possession stats tell you very little. 

The monitor vests that players wear under their shirts record an amazing about statistical information from heartbeat, to sprints, distance covered, tackles made, pass completion percentages - the statisticians can see when a player is becoming fatigued but are forbidden to pass any information onto the coaches during matches - one part of the fourth officials remit.

So yeah specialised stats are valuable all except the possession stats.

No stats are really any good without other stats or context. I wasn't talking about individual things that you mention there, but the kind of stats that DaveFevs has access too. More detail, duals won passes, progressive passes ect.  
Shots only tell you so much, shots on target only tell you so much, add blocked shots and chances created and you start to get a picture. If you are scouting a side possession stats would be handy as to how you combat them. Like I say no stats are much good alone, but add some others and you get a picture which can be important.

[City oz]

1 minute ago, 1960maaan said:

No stats are really any good without other stats or context. I wasn't talking about individual things that you mention there, but the kind of stats that DaveFevs has access too. More detail, duals won passes, progressive passes ect.  
Shots only tell you so much, shots on target only tell you so much, add blocked shots and chances created and you start to get a picture. If you are scouting a side possession stats would be handy as to how you combat them. Like I say no stats are much good alone, but add some others and you get a picture which can be important.

A bit above my pay grade trying to understand and decipher on your stats analysis and how you get them. Good info for those that can understand.

I don't care as long as we win. Very interesting though.

[1960maaan]

1 minute ago, City oz said:

A bit above my pay grade trying to understand and decipher on your stats analysis and how you get them. Good info for those that can understand.

I don't care as long as we win. Very interesting though.

Can't say I follow all of it, I find the bits I understand interesting. There are a few on here that go all in like @Davefevs .

[City oz]

5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Can't say I follow all of it, I find the bits I understand interesting. There are a few on here that go all in like @Davefevs .

I was not knocking your post. It was interesting, however I'm not sure on how you access those details and how you decipher them.

[1960maaan]

4 minutes ago, City oz said:

I was not knocking your post. It was interesting, however I'm not sure on how you access those details and how you decipher them.

No , I know you weren't. 
There are the easily accessed BBC match stats you can see on every game. These give you Possession / Shots / shots on target / Corners / fouls. So basic info .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65133470

Whoscored gives a little more in depth and detail, heatmaps ect. Generally a step up and as far as I go.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1648559/Live/England-Championship-2022-2023-Stoke-Bristol-City

Expected goals 
https://footballxg.com/xg-league-tables/

But you can pay for stats, you can if you are that keen get the same things as Clubs get I believe. 

I look at these things occasionally , there are guys that were doing stuff on Twitter got so good they were approached by Clubs . It can be interesting and you can go as far as you want. The info is available to almost anyone, the magic starts by how you decipher it and use it. Well, well beyond me.
 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

The monitor vests that players wear under their shirts record an amazing about statistical information from heartbeat, to sprints, distance covered, tackles made, pass completion percentages

I don’t believe (generically) that vests do all that.  Separate cameras and software coding do the pass and tackle stuff from what I understand, and in City’s case they use Statsbomb for this data too.  Statsbomb is far too costly for individuals like me, hence why I use Wyscout, that is affordable.  The vests do the “GPS” type data as you say. 

53 minutes ago, City oz said:

I was not knocking your post. It was interesting, however I'm not sure on how you access those details and how you decipher them.

Deciphering them is the hard part, and it’s all about context.  On the Cornick thread there’s a bit of debate re “headers won”…but what constitutes an aerial duel won?  Different data companies treat them differently.

Although I love my data, the charts I produce are more about giving a general view of what their game comprises, ie what type of player they are.  But then I overlay (in my head) things like are they playing for a winning team, a struggling team, or is the team they play for long ball, or pass it for fun team.  For CBs you might also consider are they the ball-winner or the cover.  So the charts are more a “quick view” for me, a sanity check.  But most comes from what I see in a player when I watch them, even if that is just EFL highlights.

They are good for player comparisons too.

[spudski]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t believe (generically) that vests do all that.  Separate cameras and software coding do the pass and tackle stuff from what I understand, and in City’s case they use Statsbomb for this data too.  Statsbomb is far too costly for individuals like me, hence why I use Wyscout, that is affordable.  The vests do the “GPS” type data as you say. 

Deciphering them is the hard part, and it’s all about context.  On the Cornick thread there’s a bit of debate re “headers won”…but what constitutes an aerial duel won?  Different data companies treat them differently.

Although I love my data, the charts I produce are more about giving a general view of what their game comprises, ie what type of player they are.  But then I overlay (in my head) things like are they playing for a winning team, a struggling team, or is the team they play for long ball, or pass it for fun team.  For CBs you might also consider are they the ball-winner or the cover.  So the charts are more a “quick view” for me, a sanity check.  But most comes from what I see in a player when I watch them, even if that is just EFL highlights.

They are good for player comparisons too.

There is a vast array of foot sensors and sensors worn on the calf that now give a ridiculous amount of detail on top of what the GPS vests and heart monitors do. 

This below gives a good summary of what's available.

https://sportstechnologyblog.com/2022/06/01/wearable-soccer-football-sensors-that-track-shots-passes-and-more/

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t believe (generically) that vests do all that.  Separate cameras and software coding do the pass and tackle stuff from what I understand, and in City’s case they use Statsbomb for this data too.  Statsbomb is far too costly for individuals like me, hence why I use Wyscout, that is affordable.  The vests do the “GPS” type data as you say. 

It’s been a while but we had the stats guys at Senior Reds and they were most fascinating speakers that I remember. The amount of statistics that they accumulated is mind boggling!

As far as I’m aware they do/did all the various stats from whatever piece of of kit in use at the time plus all the physical data from the vests. 

Both of them obviously loved their job - Iirc one of them had previously worked at Arsenal and had moved West to escape the hurly burly of life in London. 
 

At the time Aden Flint was at City and they said he was the quickest player over 20 yards - we all found that piece of info  really remarkable!

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

At the time Aden Flint was at City and they said he was the quickest player over 20 yards - we all found that piece of info  really remarkable!

I’m not surprised, just took him 5 yards to get his long levers moving.  Remember him breaking out of defence v Boro (h) in 17/18….like a giraffe….and they can run!

[Numero Uno]

12 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It's a bit of a grey area admittedly, but personally I don't think any of Scott, Pring or Semenyo are "products" of the academy.

Alex Scott was in the academy/development squad for all of 6 months. Pring signed for us from Cheltenham aged 18, and Semenyo also signed a pro contract aged 18 and made his first team debut the season he joined. 

Big difference between them and Bryan, Reid, and Kelly. 

Whatever you call them, and I’m not that bothered by semantics, they are still players who cost us the best part of **** all, in a number if not all cases have and will leave us for a hell of a lot more than **** all and have all saved us from a points deduction whilst maintaining Championship status.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

15 hours ago, Robbored said:

Possession stats are meaningless. City had 39% against Stoke and won the game…….

West Ham had 23% against Fulham yesterday and won…

[Numero Uno]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

West Ham had 23% against Fulham yesterday and won…

Letting the opposition have the majority of the ball whilst you keep shape and counter is a way of playing…..as we know too well.

[REDOXO]

Sometimes the semantics on here is vomit making. Pring, Semenyo and Scott not academy products…so nah nah nah nah nah. 
 

The over arching point is club developed. The three players mentioned above have in one way or another been colossal for us this season. Throw in Bell Conway and Vyner, then add in Atkinson and Tanner, it’s not rocket science to work out that this managerial and coaching staff, from first team to age group teams know what the eff they are doing with spotting talent, bringing players through and giving them game time 

[Gazred]

27 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

In the conversation I referenced earlier I was introduced to "packing score" as a statistic. The methodology comes from a German book "Mensch". 

Very interesting way of understanding the type of player whilst also highlighting progressive movements/line breaks and, as you say, backing up the all important "eye test". 

Seen much on Packing Scores? 

Our own Jens Hegeler wasn't it...

https://www.impect.com/en/about-us/

[Gazred]

15 minutes ago, Percy Pig said:

Can't believe that's passed me by! Thanks Gaz.

I think he drifted into it more as his time with us came to an end.

LJ was quite supportive/interested in it iat the time iirc.

Edit: Just found this piece if interested.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive-bristol-city-lucky-lee-2520448?int_source=amp_continue_reading&int_medium=amp&int_campaign=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Edited April 9, 2023 by Gazred

[citywest30]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

  18 hours ago, Robbored said:

Possession stats are meaningless. City had 39% against Stoke and won the game…….

That stat in its own right has meaning - it tells people that the team who had less of the ball were more clinical in taking their chances and won the game. In my opinion, you have used the wrong word describing them as meaningless. Pointless or irrelevant may have been better.

Edited April 9, 2023 by citywest30

[Davefevs]

@Percy Pig yes, see @Gazred’s reply.

[Maltshoveller]

1 hour ago, citywest30 said:

That stat in its own right has meaning - it tells people that the team who had less of the ball were more clinical in taking their chances and won the game. In my opinion, you have used the wrong word describing them as meaningless. Pointless or irrelevant may have been better.

It does not tell you that at all

For all you know the team with 39% possession could have had 60 shots and only score twice

The team with 61% could have had only one shot and scored with it

 

[citywest30]

9 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

It does not tell you that at all

For all you know the team with 39% possession could have had 60 shots and only score twice

The team with 61% could have had only one shot and scored with it

 

Fair enough, you could interpret it like that too. My point is, it has meaning.

[Shtanley]

On 09/04/2023 at 08:24, phantom said:

Was mentioned on Talksport too

Was it actually? Jokes.

[Red Army 75]

 

[Davefevs]

 

[elhombrecito]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Any idea how this compares to other Championship teams?

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

Any idea how this compares to other Championship teams?

Back in Oct at the fans forum, Tins said that the average in the Champ is circa 2 per game.  We average just over 6 (5.6 in Lg).  We average 4.2 starters per game.  That is “authentic”!!!