Teams who've never made the Prem...

[Bris Red]

Awful to see it in black and white to be fair, as others have said with the average gates we are pulling in now at home the fanbase really deserves better. Considering the absolute shit we have had to put up with to still average 20k and over at home is unbelievable support.

The only hope it does give you is we must surely be one of the  stand out clubs in this country for outside investment. Everything at the football club is in place and for an owner/owners who really want to take a club forward we have to be a fantastic proposition.

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

 

It is genuinely irritating though, in the way of one of those QI type questions which hang upon a technicality: "When did WWII end?"  1990 when Germany reunified and so was able to sign the peace treaty.

The Premiership is just a new name for the first division, the Championship for the second.

Records and questions shouldn't be differentiating purely because of such renames, like the Premeirship all time top scorer tables which slice out of history anyone scoring loads of goals before the rebrand.

Alan Smith was the top scorer in the top division in 1990/91 with 22 goals.  If only he had waited for a few years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990–91_Football_League_First_Division

It's only irritating if you view it that way. 

You could also put a table up saying...

Those who haven't been promoted since 3 points for a win. 

Or...

Those who haven't been promoted since play offs were introduced. 

Let's be honest...we all know football didn't start when the Prem was introduced. 

However...with the money in it, and parachute payments...it's seen as harder to compete against those teams ( our own manager has said that ). 

So anyone who has achieved it with those payments has done well. 

The list shows we are a bigger fish in a small pond of teams that haven't achieved it yet. 

As @IAmNick also observes and explains well. 

[richwwtk]

On the whole football didn't start with the Premier league thing, I had always thought we must be close to the most underachieving club in the country when it came to having never won a major honour and thought I would take a look.

By major honour I mean winning the top level league, the FA Cup or the League Cup.

There are at least 4 clubs just in the Premier League that have never won anything the same as us, it's more common than I thought!

(Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth and Crystal Palace if anybody is interested)

[MarcusX]

14 hours ago, spudski said:

No one has mentioned winning the top division Dave

We are discussing gaining promotion to it. 

I believe it's harder to stay in it once you've achieved promotion than before though. 

Weird you say that after a season where all 3 teams stayed up

Over the last few seasons teams have not only survived but done very well, Fulham , Brentford, leeds, Sheff U and Wolves all done well after staying up. Also look at Brighton now. Over half the teams coming up in the last 4 years have stayed up.

 

[spudski]

13 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Weird you say that after a season where all 3 teams stayed up

Over the last few seasons teams have not only survived but done very well, Fulham , Brentford, leeds, Sheff U and Wolves all done well after staying up. Also look at Brighton now. Over half the teams coming up in the last 4 years have stayed up.

 

Whilst that maybe true recently...look at the stats in the link I put up earlier in reply to fevs. 

[2015]

Sadly it hurts every time I see a new club promoted to the Prem before we do.

I know we have been 'top flight' before, but it hurts. We've come close only really once since 1980. 

The club is massive in terms of support, infrastructure and potential, but we have been acting like a small club for way too long.

1 hour ago, richwwtk said:

On the whole football didn't start with the Premier league thing, I had always thought we must be close to the most underachieving club in the country when it came to having never won a major honour and thought I would take a look.

Probably ourselves and Plymouth really.

Edited June 1, 2023 by 2015

[Owl Visiting]

10 hours ago, The Bard said:

Plymouth are bigger than Millwall and Preston.  Just so far from everyone else they get forgotten..

They've never been in the top flight at all though, Preston have had 46 years up there won two titles and two FA Cups.

Plymouth may the biggest club when you include the pre Premier League era though. 

[22A]

16 hours ago, MarcusX said:

We’ve played in the top flight, nothing story. Football didn’t start in 1992

Same for Wimbledon and Grimsby

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

2 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Considering the absolute shit we have had to put up with to still average 20k and over at home is unbelievable support.

Certainly is.

Two seasons of having to cut costs on the pitch has meant that survival in the Championship was the aim rather than promotion. Despite this we’ve continued to average around 20k. 

Considering we’ve done next to **** all throughout our history the level of support we attract on a regular basis is phenomenal.
 

[beaverface]

2 hours ago, Bris Red said:

Awful to see it in black and white to be fair, as others have said with the average gates we are pulling in now at home the fanbase really deserves better. Considering the absolute shit we have had to put up with to still average 20k and over at home is unbelievable support.

The only hope it does give you is we must surely be one of the  stand out clubs in this country for outside investment. Everything at the football club is in place and for an owner/owners who really want to take a club forward we have to be a fantastic proposition.

Reading between the lines, and listening to what others have murmured - plus Steve Lansdown not easily finding outside investment - I get the feeling that we've probably maximised what we can achieve with Ashton Gate, and if new investors came in, they'd want to see what potential could be tapped into to take us to the next level. However having little expansion space, and not being able to relocate easily to a new stadium may just hold us back for outside investment.

This is just a feeling I'm having given the soundbites being said by various people on threads throughout otib etc.

 

 

[MarcusX]

15 hours ago, Super said:

Maybe read the title again.

I read it, I could ask if you mean the Premiership or the Premier League.

46 minutes ago, spudski said:

Whilst that maybe true recently...look at the stats in the link I put up earlier in reply to fevs. 

Sorry I'm guessing you meant it's harder since the Premier League than before the rebrand - I thought you meant in recent years it's got harder. Mis-read on my part.

Although I made the flippant comment about the name change, I would agree with your point that it's a different ball game especially since the parachute payments and additional European places (meaning more clubs have more exposure to Europe so even more money in sponsorship etc)

It's also led teams to make huge gambles on getting to the top division because even getting there and coming straight back down is worth 100s of millions. That makes it harder to gain promotion now.

I guess I'm also in the age range where I was born just before the Premier League formed, so the statement is almost "not been in the top flight in my lifetime" so do still share the sentiment that it's a shame. I just don't like the washing out of records before the Premier League rebrand.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, beaverface said:

Reading between the lines, and listening to what others have murmured - plus Steve Lansdown not easily finding outside investment - I get the feeling that we've probably maximised what we can achieve with Ashton Gate, and if new investors came in, they'd want to see what potential could be tapped into to take us to the next level. However having little expansion space, and not being able to relocate easily to a new stadium may just hold us back for outside investment.

This is just a feeling I'm having given the soundbites being said by various people on threads throughout otib etc.

 

 

Completely agree.  City as a Championship club with a 26.5k max attendance isn’t a sexy invest.  If we made it into the PL, it’s more sexy, even with limited revenues from the gate receipts.

[OneTeamInBristol]

3 hours ago, richwwtk said:

On the whole football didn't start with the Premier league thing, I had always thought we must be close to the most underachieving club in the country when it came to having never won a major honour and thought I would take a look.

By major honour I mean winning the top level league, the FA Cup or the League Cup.

There are at least 4 clubs just in the Premier League that have never won anything the same as us, it's more common than I thought!

(Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth and Crystal Palace if anybody is interested)

While those 4 clubs might be the same as us in not winning a major honour in total they've spent 32 years in the Premier League between them.

So we are definitely ahead of them for underachieving!

[Red-Robbo]

12 hours ago, The Bard said:

Plymouth are bigger than Millwall and Preston.  Just so far from everyone else they get forgotten..

 

Dunno how you make that claim. 'Muff have never played in the top flight or an FA Cup and their historic attendance average is below both the clubs you mention. 

[Baba Yaga]

I was looking at the league table of 2003-04 (the year we lost to the play offs to Brighton). I am amazed that 4 clubs who finished lower than us that season (Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton, Luton) had crowds around 50% of BCFC's that season/worse infrastructure and yet will all be playing in the Premier League next season.

SL has invested to be fair but it's difficult to argue that we have underachieved massively, the point I would make though is that there are probably around 40 clubs in England who have infrastructure for prem football (and we are hardly the only club who has improved stadium in 20 years) but only 20 spaces so there will always be a few clubs like City who spend a really long time outside the top flight unfortunately.

[OneTeamInBristol]

Just now, Baba Yaga said:

I was looking at the league table of 2003-04 (the year we lost to the play offs to Brighton). I am amazed that 4 clubs who finished lower than us that season (Bournemouth, Brentford, Brighton, Luton) had crowds around 50% of BCFC's that season/worse infrastructure and yet will all be playing in the Premier League next season.

SL has invested to be fair but it's difficult to argue that we have underachieved massively, the point I would make though is that there are probably around 40 clubs in England who have infrastructure for prem football (and we are hardly the only club who has improved stadium in 20 years) but only 20 spaces so there will always be a few clubs like City who spend a really long time outside the top flight unfortunately.

You would expect the other 20 to bounce between the 2 though really like many of the other clubs you mention have done.

[Baba Yaga]

6 minutes ago, OneTeamInBristol said:

You would expect the other 20 to bounce between the 2 though really like many of the other clubs you mention have done.

Yes I would probably class City, Preston, Millwall and maybe Plymouth as the only ones who are in that club who haven't bounced since 1992 so we are in the unlucky 10% or so. And also there were a couple of owners at clubs like Luton and Blackpool who were incredibly fortunate to have got to the prem with what they put in.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Baba Yaga

[ExiledAjax]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

It's fair to say when you look at that list we are arguably the strongest overall apart from Preston not to have made it. 

Agreed. And I said myself I suspect we've got the biggest wage bill of all teams not to make it so far.

What I don't agree with is your idea that because it's harder to get promoted it's a bigger failure on our part...just because some other so-called "lesser" clubs have achieved it. That I can't agree with, and it's that logic I think is twisted.

6 hours ago, Bristol Oil Services said:

This is surprisingly vague coming from yerself, if I may say.

Too kind. All I can say is that I'm on holiday this week, our season is finished, the Potholer is flowing and I'm feeling all soft, fuzzy, vague and philosophical.

Glad that you agree that it's really ******* hard to get promoted without PP, we're essentially trying to be the one of about 15 clubs each season that gets up that way. Even if it was decided on a coin toss that's pretty horrid odds. 

Yes it's surprising that we've not done it yet, yes it's probably to poor decision making (because it's not for lack of cash or opportunity).

I guess I just don't have a huge issue with it in the end. I quite like the Championship, the PL would see plastic fans, Micah Richards getting our players' names wrong, a load of clichéd punditry, and just a change in the whole make up of the club.

But yes I'd still like us to go up, I always hope to god that xG after 10 games tells me that this is the season...maybe that'll happen in October. Maybe. Maybe.

Edited June 1, 2023 by ExiledAjax

[AppyDAZE]

"Bristol deserves Premier League football."

Not my words, the words of the little skinny baldy man from north of the river.

I wonder if he really means this.

Hmm.

[WarksRobin]

20 hours ago, Big C said:

No, Millwall

Technically Luton haven’t played in the Prem, yet

[slartibartfast]

16 hours ago, Lew-T said:

Plymouth are not bigger than PNE. 

PNE only get half decent crowds when the away fans bring 5k (which given their position on the map is quite often ).

[The Gasbuster]

11 hours ago, richwwtk said:

On the whole football didn't start with the Premier league thing, I had always thought we must be close to the most underachieving club in the country when it came to having never won a major honour and thought I would take a look.

By major honour I mean winning the top level league, the FA Cup or the League Cup.

There are at least 4 clubs just in the Premier League that have never won anything the same as us, it's more common than I thought!

(Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth and Crystal Palace if anybody is interested)

When we have discussed this topic in the past; it was mooted that we could be one of, if not THE most underachieving club in Europe, never mind this country.

Edited June 1, 2023 by The Gasbuster

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

11 minutes ago, The Gasbuster said:

When we have discussed this topic in the past; it was mooted that we could be one of, if not THE most underachieving club in Europe, never mind this country.

Relative to the size and prosperity of the city, I would think that was very likely to be true.

[Supersonic Robin]

On 31/05/2023 at 19:06, cidercity1987 said:

We have averaged 20k or more generally for a long time now.

The last time Preston got that was 1960. The last time Millwall 1951.

On what planet are we not BY FAR the biggest club to have not been in the Prem

Agree. We are head and shoulders above every club there by almost every metric.

Some people suggesting Preston are bigger, which respectfully, is ludicrous in the modern day. We are a bigger city, with a bigger fanbase, bigger attendances, a bigger stadium, better facilities, larger revenues, and more potential. Granted, I believe they've won a few trophies, but this was all pre-WW2 (and largely pre-1900!).

It's not a great 'accolade' to have, but we are by far the biggest club not to play in the Premier League. Let's not kid ourselves - we have underachieved massively. 

22 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

Appreciate the ‘football started before 92’ view and it’s very valid, but this is a metric that’s going to be used. Needs sorting. Top flight even for just 1 year changes everything - financially and in terms of the external view of our club. 

Yepp. Spot on.

 

14 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's really hard to get promoted. Not doing so doesn't point to some overarching failure, nor to this mythical "Bristol mindset" we hear about. It's just not happened yet, but it will.

See what you're saying, but not sure I agree.

It is very hard to get to the Premier League, but every club our size and bigger has managed it. Literally all of them. As have many clubs that are smaller than us. I do think we need to classify this as a significant failure on our part.  Christ, Wigan, Birmingham, and Swansea have even won domestic cups in the last 15 years!

I appreciate some people may be get sick to death of the topic, but IMO it is something we should discuss until we're sick of hearing it. If there is such thing as a "Bristol mindset" which holds us back, then I'd wager that one of its defining features would be an acceptance of mediocrity. Hopefully highlighting our underachievement on a regular basis (and feeling the frustration that comes with it) is a way for our club to ensure that we don't continue to accept mediocrity,

[steviestevieneville]

On 31/05/2023 at 19:09, steviestevieneville said:

Because the size of a club is not or should not imo be defined by fanbase. Size of a club imo is history. Ours consisted of 9 years in the top flight & one fa cup final. Preston’s history is miles better than ours 

@CrackingCheeseGromit why the laughing emoji ? Don’t you agree that Preston history is better than ours ?

[A Horse With No Name]

2 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

@CrackingCheeseGromit why the laughing emoji ? Don’t you agree that Preston history is better than ours ?

Laughing emoji because I disagree with you. The size of a club is determined by fanbase, not what they have won. By that theory, The Wanderers were a bigger club than us as they won the FA Cup 5 times or Wimbledon or Bolton due to time in the top division. You can win umpteen trophies but if you are watched by only 10,000 fans it doesnt make you a huge club.

And yes, Prestons history is impressive, but they are not a bigger club than us 

[Mad Cyril]

On 01/06/2023 at 11:52, Davefevs said:

Completely agree.  City as a Championship club with a 26.5k max attendance isn’t a sexy invest.  If we made it into the PL, it’s more sexy, even with limited revenues from the gate receipts.

Ashton Gate capacity is bigger than 6 of next season's 20 top flight grounds. Plus in a lot better condition than many others, including Old Trafford. And they sell cider.

[The Gasbuster]

14 hours ago, CrackingCheeseGromit said:

Laughing emoji because I disagree with you. The size of a club is determined by fanbase, not what they have won. By that theory, The Wanderers were a bigger club than us as they won the FA Cup 5 times or Wimbledon or Bolton due to time in the top division. You can win umpteen trophies but if you are watched by only 10,000 fans it doesnt make you a huge club.

And yes, Prestons history is impressive, but they are not a bigger club than us 

Exactly this, IMHO !

Trophies (and stints in the PL) from years ago do not relate to where a club stands today.

Swindon were in the PL for one season in the early 1990's, does that make them a bigger club than us, of course not ! Same with Wigan's FA Cup win.

[pillred]

16 hours ago, CrackingCheeseGromit said:

Laughing emoji because I disagree with you. The size of a club is determined by fanbase, not what they have won. By that theory, The Wanderers were a bigger club than us as they won the FA Cup 5 times or Wimbledon or Bolton due to time in the top division. You can win umpteen trophies but if you are watched by only 10,000 fans it doesnt make you a huge club.

And yes, Prestons history is impressive, but they are not a bigger club than us 

I think it's fair to say if we as a fairly underachieving club in the Championship can average over 20,000 then it's not unreasonable that we would average at least 30,000 in the Premier League, which as I have said many times means it's a great shame Ashton vale did not become a reality.

[W-S-M Seagull]

Personally I'm quite content that we are an established Championship club. It wasn't that long ago we were at the bottom of league one. 

We've historically gone up and down but now we can finally say we are established. Even the past few years whilst things have been difficult We've never really been in danger of relegation. We've managed to consolidate whilst cutting our cloth accordingly. 

I don't understand the desperation to get to the premier league? The Championship is a great competitive league where in any given game we can win. 

I'm happy that we continue to build slowly towards getting there and staying there. We now have a good stadium and a great training ground and the academy is producing some fantastic players. 

We will get there but patience is required. Getting desperate about it will be counter productive.