Why we don't need for a big target forward

[cidered abroad]

I'm starting this thread because the Jason Knight thread appears to be losing it's way with forwards as the main topic.

A big, tall target man will probably never be recruited by Pearson, simply because his idea of attackers are those with speed both initially and over a distance. He knows from his experience as a big central defender, that the big guys like the Welsh lump, Moore at Bournemouth are not too difficult for a decent defender to handle.

Thus he's brought in  a couple of big defenders for us to cope with that type of forward player who is still preferred by most Championship clubs.

But those big centre halves find it almost impossible to deal with the electric pace of those not so physically endowed.

So we definitely do not need a six foot plus target attacker while the emphasis is on speedy attackers.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I'm starting this thread because the Jason Knight thread appears to be losing it's way with forwards as the main topic.

A big, tall target man will probably never be recruited by Pearson, simply because his idea of attackers are those with speed both initially and over a distance. He knows from his experience as a big central defender, that the big guys like the Welsh lump, Moore at Bournemouth are not too difficult for a decent defender to handle.

Thus he's brought in  a couple of big defenders for us to cope with that type of forward player who is still preferred by most Championship clubs.

But those big centre halves find it almost impossible to deal with the electric pace of those not so physically endowed.

So we definitely do not need a six foot plus target attacker while the emphasis is on speedy attackers.

Amen

[Port Said Red]

6 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I'm starting this thread because the Jason Knight thread appears to be losing it's way with forwards as the main topic.

A big, tall target man will probably never be recruited by Pearson, simply because his idea of attackers are those with speed both initially and over a distance. He knows from his experience as a big central defender, that the big guys like the Welsh lump, Moore at Bournemouth are not too difficult for a decent defender to handle.

Thus he's brought in  a couple of big defenders for us to cope with that type of forward player who is still preferred by most Championship clubs.

But those big centre halves find it almost impossible to deal with the electric pace of those not so physically endowed.

So we definitely do not need a six foot plus target attacker while the emphasis is on speedy attackers.

I think this is right, and it's something we have tried in the past, but without changing the rest of our style to match. I certainly don't expect to see lots of high crosses or long hopeful balls into the box this season

[Monkeh]

9 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I think this is right, and it's something we have tried in the past, but without changing the rest of our style to match. I certainly don't expect to see lots of high crosses or long hopeful balls into the box this season

We can out high crosses in if needed, with Conway up front

[chinapig]

I think the fact that Nigel stopped using Chris Martin and subsequently moved him on is evidence that he doesn't want to use a big man up front.

The fact that he has said he wants us to be a high energy high pressing team suggests the same. He's not a clubs in the bag manager.

[hinsleburg]

I think a large part of our issues with Target Men is how we use them

We resort to pinging 45 yard balls above their head or smashing it at their chest and hoping it sticks, feel like if we did have that sort of player now we would utilise them much better than we had in the past. 

That being said one of the key parts in this team is that press and fast counter attacking football so the need to hold the ball up is less important than those attributes. Too often in the past we stuck on somebody to hold the ball up when leading by a goal and then you lose the press and invite too much pressure. Now we run and run for 90 minutes and the best way to get out of our half is to press and hurry the opposition which we do really well.

Weirdly, I think one of the best 'Target Men' we've had in recent times was Matty Taylor... Despite being small the way he used his body meant he won and disrupted a lot in the air, when it came into him it stuck and he also worked bloody hard. Always felt like he made an impact off the bench (albeit less than when he started) and was a shame every time he started putting some consistent games together he would pick up an injury. But he had the skillset of a Target Man and the work rate and press of a Nige striker, think he would have done really well in this team!

So I agree we don't need an old fashioned 6 foot 6 lump, but we also need to find a way to retain possession without disrupting the pressing strategy. I will say that I thought at times last year Wells was excellent at this and really seems to have adapted his game from the 'Poacher' I thought we were signing. 

[Simon bristol]

47 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I'm starting this thread because the Jason Knight thread appears to be losing it's way with forwards as the main topic.

A big, tall target man will probably never be recruited by Pearson, simply because his idea of attackers are those with speed both initially and over a distance. He knows from his experience as a big central defender, that the big guys like the Welsh lump, Moore at Bournemouth are not too difficult for a decent defender to handle.

Thus he's brought in  a couple of big defenders for us to cope with that type of forward player who is still preferred by most Championship clubs.

But those big centre halves find it almost impossible to deal with the electric pace of those not so physically endowed.

So we definitely do not need a six foot plus target attacker while the emphasis is on speedy attackers.

A good target man doesnt have to mean chris martin, someone who is strong and quick and can score goals would be welcomed with open arms, luton had 2 of them last season. Ellis simms looks pretty strong and powerful, and coventry have gotten him in for when gyorkes leaves and he also is a big lad. If we could have gotten simms in to pair with conway they would have been a real handful!

[cotswoldred2]

Haaland?

Go get him.

[ScottishRed]

Not commenting on us specifically but more football in general. A number of clubs have big strikers on their books, some play them from the start others use them as a plan B when chasing a game.

The one thing I have noticed over the years is when a team brings on a big striker they invariably go long for the remainder of the game constantly with limited success.

As mentioned above it is much easier to defend against than quick nimble forwards if you have the ability to find them from midfield.

 

[Robbored]

55 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

The one thing I have noticed over the years is when a team brings on a big striker they invariably go long for the remainder of the game constantly with limited success.

As mentioned above it is much easier to defend against than quick nimble forwards if you have the ability to find them from midfield.

‘ Going long ’ is one major issue with having a target man up top. Most recently we saw exactly that with Djuric with LJ complaining that lumping the ball  up to him was largely ineffective……………..

As already said Nige has a very different method of creating goals with a counter attacking style utilising the pace City have. 

 

 

[22A]

So reading the above posts, if they were around today, the two Johns (Atyeo & Galley) would not fit in with NP's preferred style of play?

[Sleepy1968]

9 minutes ago, 22A said:

So reading the above posts, if they were around today, the two Johns (Atyeo & Galley) would not fit in with NP's preferred style of play?

It's a completely different game. If they were around today they would have adopted a modern style of play to have a chance of being successful. Would great old school players survive in today's game? Some would, some wouldn't.

Would Roger Bannister be running 4 minutes miles today, or would he be breaking world records?

Who knows.

[Spudgun]

Personally pretty happy with the options City have up front.

If Conway stays fit he'll bag 20 odd this season, like somebodies already mentioned he's got the knack, a natural goalscorer with a killer instinct.

You've only got to look at the goals he scored last season, a mixture of bullet headers (Blackburn, Cardiff, Norwich, Rotherham), clinical finishes (Blackpool, Coventry, Swansea, Reading Burnley) and always in the right place for a tap in.

Get crosses in, which we did a lot of last season and he will score a few.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Spudgun

[beaverface]

Sometimes the opposition put a lot of men behind the ball and sit very deep, thus restricting space behind for runners. The natural instinct is to bring a big target man (or defender) on, to then pump crosses into the box, right on top of the keeper and force a goal that way.

Personally, I'd also like us to have a few more accurate long shots. Over the last few years, we rarely take accurate long shots, they usually shank off the likes of Joe Williams foot - which admitted has set up chances through luck rather than design - it would be great if we could pop in a few more long range efforts.

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, 22A said:

So reading the above posts, if they were around today, the two Johns (Atyeo & Galley) would not fit in with NP's preferred style of play?

No, they wouldn't of been effective in the modern game,

For example both would of been use to a much heavier ball, not the lightweight one we have now, there is also the state of the pitch to consider, they wouldn't be use to playing on a carpet, they'd be use to ploughed field football,

Also player in there era wouldn't of been as fit as the modern player

[cidered abroad]

52 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

No, they wouldn't of been effective in the modern game,

For example both would of been use to a much heavier ball, not the lightweight one we have now, there is also the state of the pitch to consider, they wouldn't be use to playing on a carpet, they'd be use to ploughed field football,

Also player in there era wouldn't of been as fit as the modern player

I agree that the fitness of modern pros ,especially in the higher divisions, is way better than Atyeo's era and the state of pitches is so better by a million miles.

However, and I don't know if you saw him playing but he was so so good and also helped players in the team. Forget the difference in time but any player that plays 650 matches in a career over 15 years has done it because the number of poor games without their contribution can be counted on the five fingers of both hands.

ATYEO would have been a great player in any era.

Edited July 10, 2023 by cidered abroad

[And Its Smith]

I agree. No need for a target man at all. In a perfect world we would have one more quality out and out striker to add to Conway and Wells but that would only be possible if we sell Scott.  

[redkev]

9 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

A good target man doesnt have to mean chris martin, someone who is strong and quick and can score goals would be welcomed with open arms, luton had 2 of them last season. Ellis simms looks pretty strong and powerful, and coventry have gotten him in for when gyorkes leaves and he also is a big lad. If we could have gotten simms in to pair with conway they would have been a real handful!

Was quite surprised Everton moved him on to be honest , for a team who don’t have much money to spend ( irregularities). And a centre forward ( Calvin- Lewin) who gets injured putting his man bag over his head strange one for me , unless dyche really doesn’t rate him 

[INCRED]

If you play to feet or into areas where the defender cannot make a challenge without some risk then you don’t need to have a big physical forward, running the right channels, coming short or going long with pace is how we use our frontline when attacking teams

having a high press also means we look to win the ball in the opponents defensive areas and I can see a lot of our goals coming from that approach next season 

High press means the opponents only realistic out ball is hitting it long and our defensive physicality can then pick up these balls and start off another attack 

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, INCRED said:

If you play to feet or into areas where the defender cannot make a challenge without some risk then you don’t need to have a big physical forward, running the right channels, coming short or going long with pace is how we use our frontline when attacking teams

having a high press also means we look to win the ball in the opponents defensive areas and I can see a lot of our goals coming from that approach next season 

High press means the opponents only realistic out ball is hitting it long and our defensive physicality can then pick up these balls and start off another attack 

The “press” is something I’m really keen to watch this pre season / season.

We talk a lot about high press (front foot football too), but I think it’s interpreting the word “high” that is interesting.  High as in high up the pitch, or high as in high intensity?  Both?  Neither?

I actually think we press high up the pitch but mainly in a “lane blocking” way, rather than a “pinching the ball” kind of way…if that makes sense.

Some of the data backs this up too.

I wrote this last weekend.  Not City focussed, but general across the Champ and how different styles are used, beyond the simple short v direct.

https://medium.com/@davefevs/unraveling-the-efl-championship-4d8c337259eb
 

Interested what people think???

[Topper 123]

10 hours ago, cotswoldred2 said:

Haaland?

Go get him.

No he’s too big 

[Cityboy1954]

11 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

A good target man doesnt have to mean chris martin, someone who is strong and quick and can score goals would be welcomed with open arms, luton had 2 of them last season. Ellis simms looks pretty strong and powerful, and coventry have gotten him in for when gyorkes leaves and he also is a big lad. If we could have gotten simms in to pair with conway they would have been a real handful!

I agree time will tell if Tommy needs more help as wells and weinmann in an out the team last season.

[1960maaan]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The “press” is something I’m really keen to watch this pre season / season.

We talk a lot about high press (front foot football too), but I think it’s interpreting the word “high” that is interesting.  High as in high up the pitch, or high as in high intensity?  Both?  Neither?

I actually think we press high up the pitch but mainly in a “lane blocking” way, rather than a “pinching the ball” kind of way…if that makes sense.

Some of the data backs this up too.

I wrote this last weekend.  Not City focussed, but general across the Champ and how different styles are used, beyond the simple short v direct.

https://medium.com/@davefevs/unraveling-the-efl-championship-4d8c337259eb
 

Interested what people think???

It will be interesting. 
When Reid was up front, we pressed well, even recently with Wells & Conway at the right trigger, we could chase down and harry. But what they do seem to do is block lines and passes until the right moment. You can get drawn into chasing shadows trying to press, what I think we have done well recently is picking moments to Press and moments to close down .
I am looking forward to the season, shame we didn't have a few home games Pre season.

[MrRedRobin]

11 hours ago, cotswoldred2 said:

Haaland?

Go get him.

Good backup to Tommy, imagine wages won't be an issue

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

https://medium.com/@davefevs/unraveling-the-efl-championship-4d8c337259eb
 

Interested what people think???

I read through it the other day and I'm still amazed that Coventry rank so lowly in build up attacks. I would have had it completely wrong.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Thought Semenyo’s best days were when he had Martin dealing with/causing problems for the lump central defenders. Allowed him to move on to defenders who were weaker than him and his pace was as good as theirs, if not quicker. Remain to be convinced that something similar wouldn’t help Tommy reach his potential more swiftly. Big/strong defenders offer something and not sure we’ve currently got the frontline to confidently counteract them, lots of quicker players isn’t sufficient in my view, we need to have some other options. Cornick the closest, but very different to Martin/a striker who can beat up physical defenders. 

[Davefevs]

I thought that little spell with Antoine playing inside forward / Tommy through the middle was looking really promising.

[Henry]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The “press” is something I’m really keen to watch this pre season / season.

We talk a lot about high press (front foot football too), but I think it’s interpreting the word “high” that is interesting.  High as in high up the pitch, or high as in high intensity?  Both?  Neither?

I actually think we press high up the pitch but mainly in a “lane blocking” way, rather than a “pinching the ball” kind of way…if that makes sense.

Some of the data backs this up too.

I wrote this last weekend.  Not City focussed, but general across the Champ and how different styles are used, beyond the simple short v direct.

https://medium.com/@davefevs/unraveling-the-efl-championship-4d8c337259eb
 

Interested what people think???

That’s a really good point. I saw a little twitter clip of Grealish ‘pressing’. He doesn’t go charging around but he blocks the lanes and encourages the defender to come in field where Man City have a lot more bodies to nick the ball away.

[W-S-M Seagull]

5 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I read through it the other day and I'm still amazed that Coventry rank so lowly in build up attacks. I would have had it completely wrong.

I watched them lots last season cos I have quite a few friends that support them and I'm not surprised by the data at all. 

In most of the games I saw they would defend resolutely and then would get the ball as quickly as possible to Gyokeres who was on the half way line and most of the time on the left. He'd then use his pace and physicality to get forward. At this level, he was an incredible player, although he did miss I high number of one on one's.

That system got them so far but eventually they were found out in the final. 

Without Gyokeres they'd have hugely struggled last season. 

I'm not quite sure I'd want us to adopt a style like that. Yes it was effective for one season but its not a system that screams of sustained long term success. Now that Gyokeres is going it will be interesting to see how and if they can adapt, especially with a very high turn over of players. 

I'm not quite sure I see them getting anywhere near the play offs next season. 

[Son of Fred]

17 hours ago, Robbored said:

‘ Going long ’ is one major issue with having a target man up top. Most recently we saw exactly that with Djuric with LJ complaining that lumping the ball  up to him was largely ineffective……………..

As already said Nige has a very different method of creating goals with a counter attacking style utilising the pace City have. 

 

 

We are not a counter attacking side.